Kidd You Not!

Kidd You Not
with

Dr. Shea

Welcome to this brand new podcast hosted by Wake Forest University’s Vice President of Campus Life, Dr. Shea Kidd Brown. The purpose of this podcast is to connect you, the audience to our shared humanity. Often times we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. On this podcast, we will discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes our humanity.

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*Kidd You Not is brought to you by Wake Forest students Vir Gupta (’25) and Mary Anna Bailey (’25) and supported by the Division of Campus Life.


Episode 7: Chief Lawson

On this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with a vital member of the campus life team, who serves as the Chief of the Wake Forest University Police Department, Regina Lawson. You’ll hear about her childhood in a small town, what compelled her to join law enforcement, what her time at Wake (over 20 years) has been like and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea. And this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title.

(00:27):

Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life. In my role at Wake Forest University, I get to work with some pretty amazing people. And in fact, when I was transitioning here, I earned points with my son when I shared that I will get work alongside the Chief of Police. Today, I get to talk to Assistant Vice President and Chief of Police Regina Lawson.

(01:03):

Regina is a member of my leadership team and has been at Wake Forest for more than 30 years. She’s an active contributor in her field through the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators, also known as IACLEA. In fact, Wake Forest was the first accredited police department in the country. Today, that number sits at 73. Chief Lawson is passionate about the student experience and the mission of UP is to provide a safe and inclusive community where students, faculty, staff, and visitors may experience a sense of security and belonging. I look forward to visiting with her today.

(01:38):

So, hello, and welcome. How are you?

Regina Lawson (01:41):

Hi, I’m doing good. How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:43):

I’m doing well. We have both had full days today.

Regina Lawson (01:46):

It’s Monday.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

It is Monday, the day we’re recording is beginning of a week, which means we are rolling (laughs) in here and not sure what may come of today’s conversation after a Monday. So, I’m really glad to talk with you. And I imagine there’s a whole lot we could dig into given your job and my job and how we work closely together. So, you ready to get started?

Regina Lawson (02:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:08):

Okay. So, starting with the common questions become a theme to start with this concept of home. So, where’s home for you? We’ll start there.

Regina Lawson (02:15):

Yeah. So, that’s funny. I’m Regina Lawson from Lawsonville, North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

Really? (laughs) Nice.

Regina Lawson (02:21):

I grew up in very small town in Stokes County and until I went to the first grade, I lived on Aubrey Lawson Road, which is named after my grandfather.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Oh, wow.

Regina Lawson (02:31):

Yeah. Very small town. The welcome sign was on one post, you know. (laughs) That’s just a joke-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:37):

Nice.

Regina Lawson (02:37):

… that the locals tell. But-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:38):

Right.

Regina Lawson (02:38):

Yeah, it’s very small.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:40):

Yeah. Do you remember what the population was?

Regina Lawson (02:43):

It is a few 100.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Really?

Regina Lawson (02:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (02:45):

It’s very rural, farming community. We have an elementary school, country store and a post office that has actually scaled back to, like, shorter hours now.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

Hmm. We’ve never talked about that.

Regina Lawson (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

And we talk a lot.

Regina Lawson (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Yeah. So, you have a namesake-

Regina Lawson (02:59):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

… in your city, in your street. And the second part of that question is what does home mean to you? So, oftentimes, people say, “Where are you from?” And I’ll say, “Where’s home for you?” I would love to just hear your thoughts on what does that mean? What does that word home mean to you?

Regina Lawson (03:14):

Yeah. Lawsonville was a great place to grow up.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:17):

But it was also the kind of place that as you got older into the teenage years, you kind of wanted to leave and go explore.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:25):

But it’s amazing how myself and many others ended up gravitating back-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:31):

… you know, to that area. And I don’t think that it’s too uncommon. But home is kind of where you have your roots and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:38):

… where you feel comfortable and just… you know I don’t live there now.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Right.

Regina Lawson (03:44):

But we still have the family farm and it’s just somewhere when you go, you just have this special kind of nostalgic, reminiscent kind of experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:55):

And soak in all the smells of fresh mowed hay-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (04:00):

… or cow pastures (laughs) or-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:03):

… the smell of rain calming you.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:04):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:05):

You know, those kinds of outdoor things that just kind of remind you of home.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Mm-hmm. All of that. I remember when we did that activity where we talked about “I am from…” and it was like sights and sounds and smells when you said, hay bells that reminded me of that. I think about pine trees and sand and ocean smells, so kind of transports you back when you think about home but also we all both created home in other places, too. So… and really, I should have started with this. But people know you as our Chief of Police, but we all have an origin story.

(04:34):

So, I love hearing a little bit more about that and to dig into that a bit more. Can you tell me a little bit about your family? And maybe tell me about your grandfather, what you remember, but anything you want to share about your family? And-

Regina Lawson (04:46):

I think what’s interesting is we were working class but we were pretty much poor.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (04:50):

I mean, I lived in a house with no bathroom until the first grade and I say that-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:54):

Really?

Regina Lawson (04:54):

… not for sympathy. Just, you know, you don’t know… yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:56):

It contextualizes. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:58):

What you don’t know. And our family were farmers.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:01):

My mother’s family had relocated from West Virginia where they had been coal miners and my grandfather on my mom’s side worked for Pike Electric and actually helped to build Camp Lejeune military base.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:13):

And that’s where my mom was born. And then, my grandfather on my dad’s side was the farmer, horse trader, and he was just someone who seems just like we had a special relationship.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:25):

You’re not supposed to have favorites, but I think he and I both had-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:27):

(laughing)

Regina Lawson (05:29):

… favorites. I mean, there’s a picture of my office when I’m not even old enough to walk and it’s he and I on horse-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

On a horse? Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:35):

… together, you know. He was a just a very practical, down to earth, problem solver-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:40):

… very, you know, innovative.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

(laughs) Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:44):

And then, he come to had big gardens and our family farmed tobacco.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (05:48):

When that was kinda the cash crop.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:50):

So, it’s kind of the way I grew up. My dad actually worked in Department of Corrections. And my uncle on my mom’s side actually worked for the Sheriff’s Department. And so, they were kind of indirectly somehow inspired me to go into law enforcement-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (06:06):

… although that wasn’t my first major. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Okay. Well, I want to dig into all of that. So, before we go there, I mean, I wanna talk about horses. (laughs) I wanna talk about law enforcement. I want to talk about not having indoor plumbing (laughs) and farming. So, I’m curious what you learned from farming. You know, were you a part of that? Do you have memories of being part of that as a child?

Regina Lawson (06:26):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:26):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (06:27):

And, you know, it, it taught me a lot. And one thing sometimes in the work, you can get through a day, you don’t necessarily look back and see tangible results.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:36):

Right.

Regina Lawson (06:36):

When you’re on the farm, and you’ve plowed the field-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

Right.

Regina Lawson (06:39):

… you see tangible results.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:40):

Yeah. (laughs) Look what I did.

Regina Lawson (06:41):

Yeah. Yeah. So… and it taught you that a lot of things are not in your control.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:47):

You know, the weather and just catastrophic conditions sometimes and-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Sure.

Regina Lawson (06:51):

But it also taught you the value of labor-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:55):

… and how you have to care for the land-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:57):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:57):

… and the environment, and made me very passionate about that. The office will tell you I’m big on recycling, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (07:03):

But it also taught me the value of money. My sister and I, we started our own checking accounts when we were 13.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

Really?

Regina Lawson (07:12):

We had our allocated two acres of tobacco.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:15):

So, that was our own money-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (07:15):

… and our income.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:18):

And we had to pay for our expenses.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:21):

And pay for the staff.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

And you had to pay for your staff?

Regina Lawson (07:23):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:23):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:24):

Wait, when I say staff that that’s in today’s word.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

Right.

Regina Lawson (07:26):

We had to pay for our help-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:28):

… that helped us with the crops.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:31):

And that was a way that my sister and I made money by going and-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:34):

… working for other families.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (07:36):

And people would come and we would have to pay per hour.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:40):

It was a morning that we had three people help us. They work for five hours, we had to write our checks.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:46):

So, we had to pay them.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

Gosh, that teaches you something really early, and also that you went, and worked, and sort of reciprocated that in different ways. Were there particular crops that you worked in, on? I don’t know the right language. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (07:58):

Yeah. So, primarily tobacco. Tobacco is-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

So, you did that as well?

Regina Lawson (08:02):

Correct.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (08:03):

We would help other families-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (08:05):

… get up hay, we mowed yards.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (08:07):

That was the kind of jobs in the community because-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

Right.

Regina Lawson (08:10):

… you didn’t have McDonald’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

Right. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (08:12):

… to work at.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:14):

No, no. I mean, the things you said that you learned about it even down to sustainability, like to be able to in a very simple form, put a seed in the ground and will not have that instant gratification on some levels, but to plow the field and have the instant gratification. I mean, that there’s probably a million life lessons that you could go down and, and think about that.

(08:31):

I think about my 14-year-old who let’s just say hasn’t written a check. They don’t really, don’t really do that these days. But even just as a good reminder for me as a mom, like those things you can teach your kids really early. They can have a responsibility to steward that. So, he has a little bit of an allowance. So, now, he’s very selective on how he spends his money.

Regina Lawson (08:50):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

He’s not as selective on how he spends my money. Now, did you have siblings?

Regina Lawson (08:55):

I am the oldest of three daughters.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (08:57):

So, I had a younger sister that very close, we’re 10 months apart.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:02):

And then, the baby-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:02):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (09:04):

… nine years later.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (09:05):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

The caboose.

Regina Lawson (09:05):

The caboose-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:07):

… came along and, uh, we’re very fortunate we all live in Winston-Salem area.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:11):

Now, we’ve lived other places very close. My father would jokingly tell people, he said three strikes, and he was out, I think he wanted a son.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (09:20):

But he kind of-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

And he was in.

Regina Lawson (09:24):

Yeah, he was. He imparted a lot of skills in us that he would probably-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:26):

… taught his sons as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:30):

So, we, we learned a lot. And I think it benefited us whether it was how to change a flat tire-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:32):

… and how to drive a tractor.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:34):

Things like that. And the other thing he would jokingly say having three daughters and a wife was he never really got to spend a lot of time in the bathroom. And that we never got anywhere on time. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Yeah. (laughs) Some of those stereotypes are true, right? So, I have to ask you about horses because you mentioned riding horse with your grandfather. So, is that where the love of horses? So, for those who don’t know, the chief really enjoys riding horses and spends time, but you don’t really have a lot of downtime, but the downtime you have doing that. So, talk a little bit about that.

Regina Lawson (10:05):

It’s kind of my therapy. And I’ve had horses pretty much my whole life. When I was in college, my grandfather passed away. And it didn’t make sense at the time. So, we ended up selling horses. So, there’s a small period of time when I actually didn’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:20):

… have a horse even on the farm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (10:22):

But it’s three or four years, not very, long, you know- (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:23):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:25):

… of my long life. But I look at it as kind of therapy, my escape.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:28):

Horses, you either love them or hate them.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:30):

And you have to love them because they are a lot of work.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:32):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (10:33):

But become a second family and they are just like pets, if you have cats or dogs.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:38):

Very big pets. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (10:38):

Very big pets, they have all personality differences and look at cleaning the stalls it’s just something-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:46):

… kind of its work. But it’s also there’s something therapeutic-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:50):

… about that just spending time at the barn just gives me just a break from the day.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:55):

And admittedly, there are still some places that you can take horses where cellphones don’t reach.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Oh. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:02):

(laughs) So, I got-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

So, you get to really disconnect. And I would imagine answering a cellphone on a horse would be dangerous anyway.

Regina Lawson (11:08):

You know, it can be, but you’d be amazed. Sometimes like we go on these rides, and all of a sudden, you’ll see people kind of huddle up and you’ll see them all on their phones because there’s a spot where they’ve got cell service.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Cell service. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:18):

And so, they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (11:18):

… they’re all FaceTime-ing.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (11:18):

Like things like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Oh, that is funny.

Regina Lawson (11:25):

So, it’s kind of odd that you go from the Pony Express-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:28):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:28):

… Messenger days to-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

Right.

Regina Lawson (11:29):

… watching everybody on their phones on the horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:30):

On their cellphone. Yeah. Well, have you done competitions or?

Regina Lawson (11:33):

You know, over the years, you know, certainly my grandfather, we used to go to these little backyard shows and rodeos.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (11:39):

And something that’s really enjoyable, but you… in this today’s environment, you have to have a sponsor or be independently wealthy.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:48):

Yeah. It’s so expensive.

Regina Lawson (11:49):

They’re very much very expensive. And one, because of the travel-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (11:54):

… you have to have a job that has flexibility. And, you know, there was a point in time where you can have kind of mediocre horses and be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (12:00):

But now you have to have the athletes.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

That won’t work. Okay. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (12:01):

Yeah. To be, you know, competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

Right.

Regina Lawson (12:05):

Like a lot of other things. The things I do enjoy, it’s called ranch sorting or, you know, cutting and you can have an okay horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:12):

And it’s just a lot of fun. It’s for the fun of it. And you do compete, you and, um, partner on horses go in and you go into a herd of cows and you-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:22):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:23):

… cut the cows out, you know, they call out a number, you cut the cows out and you’re timed and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

So, what is the cut the cow out mean?

Regina Lawson (12:30):

The cut the cow means sometimes you have 10 cows and sometimes you have more cows. Usually, they’re numbered.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:37):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:38):

And so, when they announcer calls out the number, you go into the herd, on your horse, and you extract that numbered cow out.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:45):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (12:46):

And then, you go in sequence. So, if they call out number two, you go get number two-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:50):

… take it out of the pen, then you go get number three.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

But when you go get it, what does that mean? What do you- (laughs)

Regina Lawson (12:56):

So, yeah, you ride it. You know, this is really good, this challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:57):

Yeah. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (13:00):

So, uh, you, you ride your horse toward that-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Okay. To the cow?

Regina Lawson (13:03):

… cow, in the herd.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:04):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:05):

And you kind of circle it with your horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:06):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:07):

You don’t rope it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:08):

You just kind of have to convince it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:10):

To come with you?

Regina Lawson (13:11):

To come with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Oh, interesting.

Regina Lawson (13:13):

But you’re… you know, in horse language it’s called pushing a cow out.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:16):

So, you kind of get behind the cow. And then, the word cutting comes from your horse maneuvers in such a way that your horse really kind of, again, circles the cow-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (13:28):

… extracts the cow-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:29):

… from the herd. At some of the round robins, you ride with different people, different teammates.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:34):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (13:35):

You can have really good riders or beginners.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (13:41):

And so, it’s just a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

I got to check this out. I need to look on YouTube, so I can get a visual.

Regina Lawson (13:43):

I’ll send you some videos.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:44):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (13:45):

And I could talk all day about it. But that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

That’s… I’m fascinated, I wanna know more.

Regina Lawson (13:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:48):

So, have you had, I mean, any kind of injury or anything that made you not wanna do that anymore?

Regina Lawson (13:54):

You know, I’ve been really lucky. I’ve been hurt several times, but nothing real serious. You know, early days, I think I was in the first grade, maybe. I was on a horse and it just kind of took off running and I fell off.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:10):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:10):

My foot was in the stirrup, so it-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:11):

Oh, wow.

Regina Lawson (14:12):

Yeah, but got through that okay. And then-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:14):

Mm-hmm. You know what it means to get back in the saddle for real?

Regina Lawson (14:15):

I mean, I do. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (14:15):

And sometimes it’s a little unnerving if-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

Not bad.

Regina Lawson (14:20):

If people tell you they’re not scared, you have to just kind of overcome that.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:25):

But I mean, I’ve gotten to a point riding that, um, I’m not going to take the risks that I’ve taken, you know, previously-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:31):

… because I’ve had broken leg, three broken fingers.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Oh, my gosh. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (14:36):

A lot over the years. I mean, a lot of-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:39):

… fractured ribs.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

Oh, my gosh. Just from-

Regina Lawson (14:41):

Rib just trying the most-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:42):

… from falling off or?

Regina Lawson (14:43):

From coming off. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (14:45):

That’s just kind of a common.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (14:46):

Depending on how you hit, but, but I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:48):

That’s amazing.

Regina Lawson (14:49):

… compared to a lot of people, they get seriously injured.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:50):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (14:50):

I’ve been very fortunate and-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

No, that’s amazing that you’ve been fortunate, and that you’ve been willing to do it again. You know, I can draw a lot of parallels to what I see in you today. And in terms of in a tough job, and we’ll talk about that in a little bit. But we’ve always talked surfacey about horses and I know that’s, uh, an area that you get to just be. And we all need that. We all need outlets to be able to do that. So, I love that. So, who were you as a child? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:18):

So, I’m going to tell stories about me. For some reason, I stored my toy guns in the refrigerator.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:23):

Are you serious? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:27):

And I, I always had like cuts or bruises on my legs and I wear cowboy boots all the time, even with shorts. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

That is amazing. The refrigerator? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:36):

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t… or maybe I thought it was a safe. I don’t, I don’t know. And to the day my first grade school teacher passed away, every time I saw her somewhere.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:46):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (15:46):

She always told the story about me being in the first grade. And this was a teacher that taught her whole career at the same-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (15:52):

… elementary school. She taught my father and my uncle.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:56):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (15:57):

And so, in the first grade, somehow we were running on the sidewalk and I fell and skint my knees.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:01):

That’s when you wore dresses to-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:03):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:03):

… go to school all the time. And I told my teacher, I said, “I’ll be okay. My pa has a blue horse medicine he’ll put on my knees and they’ll be fine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:10):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (16:11):

And so, she loved telling that story-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Yes.

Regina Lawson (16:14):

… every time I saw her.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Of that event. That is-

Regina Lawson (16:14):

Yeah. She’s like, “I’m fine. My pa has a blue horse medicine.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

That’ll fix it all.

Regina Lawson (16:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

So, you were, uh, from the beginning resourceful, and it sounds like rugged, and able to compete with whoever you needed to.

Regina Lawson (16:30):

People have often kind of call me like gritty or-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:33):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:34):

… and a kind of we had a saying in our family, if you’re going to be dumb, you better be tough.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (16:39):

So, if you made a bad decision, you better be ready for the consequences of that-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (16:46):

… you know, this horse is ready.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:46):

Or this horse is not ready or-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (16:47):

… should I have, that came up a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:49):

You have the most amazing sayings. (laughs) I know when I came here to work, I was like, “Okay. I got to write this down. There are three sides to every story.” That’s one. You said something about creature?

Regina Lawson (16:58):

Creature comfort?

Shea Kidd Brown (16:59):

Yes. Creature comforts.

Regina Lawson (17:00):

Yeah. Yeah. I talk about that at the EOC.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:02):

Yes. Yes.

Regina Lawson (17:02):

Yeah. We have to have our creature comforts.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

Absolutely. And three sides to every story was, if I remember correctly, you hear both sides. And then, you make sense of the middle, essentially. So, there’s three sides, and I definitely use that every day. So, we talked about you storing guns in the refrigerator?

Regina Lawson (17:17):

Toy gun, toy gun.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:18):

A toy. Thank you for clarifying. Toy guns. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (17:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

What was your childhood career? Did you know… well, I know, for me, I wanted to be a veterinarian, and I realized that vets have to work on horses to connect this dot and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know about that.” So, did you have a childhood dream job?

Regina Lawson (17:33):

You know, I, I wanted to be a cowboy.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Did you? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (17:37):

Yeah. And, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (17:39):

… and I grew up in the era where you watch like Gunsmoke-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:41):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:42):

… and, uh, Bonanza, and my favorite was the Wild Wild West.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:46):

And that was Jim West and Artemus Gordon, and they were US Secret Service agents-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:50):

… working for that time, President Grant. And so, so, I think that’s where I kind of developed this interest in law and order.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:58):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:58):

And then, kind of career wise. But it was really about-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:01):

… riding the horses and the guns. Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:03):

Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. And you said that wasn’t your first. Your major wasn’t connected to that in college?

Regina Lawson (18:09):

It wasn’t. And in this is kind of a, a funny story. In high school, I took accounting.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:16):

And I liked that because you feel like you had money. You know, you’re always, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:19):

All the scenarios.

Regina Lawson (18:20):

… were doing these exercises and stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:22):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (18:22):

So, I was an accounting major for one semester.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:24):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (18:24):

And I went back to school, you know, after Christmas break. And that was back in the day when you stood in the long drop/add lines and the big gym.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

Mm-hmm. And remind us where you went to school?

Regina Lawson (18:34):

UNC Wilmington.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:34):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (18:37):

I changed my major to sociology.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:40):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:41):

And minored in criminal justice.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (18:42):

And that summer I started working the day I got home for school for summer break-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:48):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:48):

… at the Stokes County Sheriff’s Department and worked up until the Friday before I went back to school on Sunday.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:54):

Hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:54):

And then, when I got back to UNCW, I started working for their version of Deacon Student Patrol like-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:00):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (19:01):

So, that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:02):

And was there a moment that you said… I know you said you were in accounting for a semester. But did you connect… you talked about your parents being involved in law enforcement or family members?

Regina Lawson (19:13):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:13):

Was that kind of a through line always or was there something that you were exposed to in college that made that feel like it could be a career for you?

Regina Lawson (19:20):

My uncle who was then a Major for the Sheriff’s Department, he was the one that had a need, an individual, the records manager was going to be out on maternity leave, the exact same month I was home for a break.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (19:34):

So, that gave me tons of exposure and experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (19:38):

I got to go up in a helicopter and look at marijuana.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

And you were how old?

Regina Lawson (19:43):

I was 19.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:44):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (19:44):

Yeah. But it was just because detectives kind of took me under their wing.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (19:49):

And they… I jokingly say I solved my first case then because the office building that we were in was attached to the jail and, uh, jail trustees cleaned, the custodial work.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:02):

And there was actually drop ceilings kind of like in this room and there was dust on the table.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:08):

And it wasn’t there today before. And I was down there cleaning up old files. And all of a sudden, I told one of the detectives about it, and realized that they were going in through the ceiling tiles and getting contraband out of property and evidence.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:22):

Oh, no way.

Regina Lawson (20:23):

So, yeah. So, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:24):

You really did.

Regina Lawson (20:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

I mean, that was a big deal.

Regina Lawson (20:26):

Uh, it was. I mean, I didn’t realize how big of a deal it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (20:30):

… until later in my career.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:31):

And talk about the noticing, so often we’re so busy, and we don’t recognize these tiny little details. And that was something that was so significant to cracking that case.

Regina Lawson (20:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:42):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (20:43):

Another funny piece of that is like, I read a police report. That’s a one-page police report on a murder.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:50):

And I was like, “How can this be all?”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:52):

Right. (laughs) Yeah.

Regina Lawson (20:54):

It was just a different time.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Yeah. Interesting.

Regina Lawson (20:57):

I would say 1982.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (20:59):

Yeah. I know, a long time ago.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:01):

So, you had that opportunity when person was on parental leave-

Regina Lawson (21:05):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:05):

… to really see it up close. And then, is that when you came back and you were like, “I wanna do sociology and minor in criminal justice?”

Regina Lawson (21:12):

Correct. I’d already changed majors, but that kind of solidified things for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (21:15):

And I’d actually me and my sister over that Christmas break, and went to see a movie called My Squad. So, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to be an FBI agent.” So, I was, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (21:24):

… building my resume.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:26):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (21:26):

And that’s what I was working on that.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

You went from cowboy to?

Regina Lawson (21:27):

Yeah. To FBI.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

FBI agent.

Regina Lawson (21:32):

Yeah. The summer after I turned 21 because you had to be 21 to go to the academy.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:36):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (21:37):

And you could be sponsored by another agency, you didn’t have to be employed. I went to the bank and borrowed $600 to pay my three months of rent.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (21:46):

Because I can work on the weekends to make enough spending money. But I… that paid my rent and utilities. So, I went to the academy. And then, I still just worked part-time because I didn’t want a full-time job because I’m still going to school.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

School. Right.

Regina Lawson (21:58):

So, the next year after I got the second job offer to be a full-time officer, I took it. I still graduated in six years. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

That is unreal. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:07):

… that was… yeah, I was pretty happy about that. But it was really because I had people that were great mentors.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:14):

And inspired me and helped me see the value of, uh, developing kind of the work resume.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:21):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:22):

Also how continuing my education was important.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:24):

That I shouldn’t stop that.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:26):

And just focus on the paycheck.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:27):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:28):

Because easily sometimes that really gets in the way, especially as a young person, when you start earning money, it’s really tempting-

Regina Lawson (22:35):

Yeah. It very.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:35):

… to just take a time out from school.

Regina Lawson (22:37):

Very tempting. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:39):

So, I was glad I didn’t do that. And the other thing I learned along the way is stick with a smaller agency, because you get to be more of a generalist.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:46):

Mm-hmm. You learn everything.

Regina Lawson (22:48):

Yeah. Learn a lot. But that was helpful. And I also… I’ve been very fortunate that I came into campus law enforcement to build my resume. But it was a time that just really beginning to become respected and understood.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (23:05):

And, and certainly through my time, has become now a career option-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:09):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (23:10):

… as opposed to just kind of-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:11):

Like happenstance?

Regina Lawson (23:12):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:13):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (23:13):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:14):

So, you mentioned there’s mentors and people who sounds like had your best interests at heart. They saw a need as it related to law enforcement, but also wanted to make sure you finished. Are there people that come to mind, especially that made a specific impact on your life, or imprint on your life?

Regina Lawson (23:29):

There are several and, and sadly, some of them have passed.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (23:34):

And one in particular, Billy Dawson, and he’s still living, and he was eventually became the chief at UNCW. But the funny story is when I went by the campus police department to get an application, he’s a big kind of larger-than-life individual. And I stopped by, big, gruff voice says, “Can I help you?” “Yes, I’m looking for an application.” He goes over to the file cabinet. He opens it up-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:59):

Uh-huh.

Regina Lawson (23:59):

… hands it to me, he closes the back, “Fill it out, bring it back.” He kind of intimidate me.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Yeah. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (24:04):

So, I was very reluctant to bring it back, but I didn’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:07):

And this is when you’re still a student?

Regina Lawson (24:08):

I was still a student.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:08):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (24:10):

That was my freshman year. I had to fill it out in the spring to get the job in the fall.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (24:14):

And so, ended up being as scary as that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:18):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (24:19):

… for a freshmen student, just because of this kind of larger-than-life-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Right.

Regina Lawson (24:23):

… not very talkative individual.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:24):

Yeah. It’s already an intimidating environment.

Regina Lawson (24:29):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

And then, you add that to it.

Regina Lawson (24:29):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (24:30):

And he became one of my biggest fans even to this day-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:33):

Aw.

Regina Lawson (24:33):

… we stay in touch and I try to talk to him, you know, every few months. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

That’s great.

Regina Lawson (24:38):

And just, uh, incredibly key person that influenced me-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:43):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (24:43):

… throughout my whole career.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:45):

Yeah. Well, it’s this concept, and you and I have talked about this, of being seen, and someone seeing you like that whole notion that my husband says, “You’re on the grid.” Like at some point, you’re like, “Oh, I have a purpose.”

Regina Lawson (24:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

And it sounds like he really spoke in to that.

Regina Lawson (25:01):

Yes, he believed in me several times a lot more than I believed in myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:06):

Yeah. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (25:07):

And I think that’s what we all have to have-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

Absolutely. Like it’s the magic. Well, I mean, I talked about this all the time, working in the jobs we work in is you just don’t know who might walk through that door. And like you walked through that door that day, and you’re sitting here now, and have been Chief here for a few years.

Regina Lawson (25:24):

A long time.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:26):

I would love to transition. I mean, one, I will just name that you’re a woman. We see more of that, but we don’t see a lot of that. And would love to just hear what you’ve learned from this work. I mean… and it doesn’t have to be gendered. It could be anything you’ve learned. I think it’s important to name when you’re a pioneer and doing work that others haven’t done. That’s really important to acknowledge and to honor that. And I’m sure that came with, um, some stories. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (25:53):

Thank you for asking about that. And, uh, no, in the early days, there were very few women.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (25:58):

I remember this one experience being at International Campus Law Enforcement Association-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:04):

… Annual Conference, and we started a women’s member luncheon.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:10):

The breakout sessions had ended. And we were all kind of gravitating into the place where we were going to have lunch.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:16):

One of our male colleagues was just sitting there chatting, and I think he thought we were all just going to have lunch, and all of a sudden, he looks around, he said, “Am I supposed to be here?”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

I didn’t get the memo.

Regina Lawson (26:26):

Yeah. So, we jokingly said, “Ah, now you know how it feels to be in that room where you’re the only one, you know.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:31):

And we had a great conversation around it.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:35):

But he did eventually realize it was that women’s member luncheon.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:37):

That he was not invited.

Regina Lawson (26:38):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

But that is interesting, when-

Regina Lawson (26:41):

Yeah. And we just celebrated our 25th year of the women’s… I might be off by one, we had some COVID gaps in there.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:50):

But… so for over 25 years, the women’s member is kind of moved around from dinner to lunch, from thing to thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:55):

And it’s just so rewarding now to not only see the increased number-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (27:02):

… but the diversity of the women that we have.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:03):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (27:04):

And not just visible diversity-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (27:07):

… just career paths, and connections, and how they got there.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:12):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (27:12):

Where they’ve been.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:13):

Interesting.

Regina Lawson (27:14):

It’s just very, very rich, rich experienced.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:17):

I imagine. I’ve learned a lot thanks to you about law enforcement, but you have city, county-

Regina Lawson (27:22):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:22):

… state, federal, campus, law enforcement isn’t just police. So, there’s lots of emergency management, fire.

Regina Lawson (27:30):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:30):

Like lots of different avenues. I, I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of those conversations. So, it goes without saying that this work is really hard.

Regina Lawson (27:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

What you do is really hard, and over the last decade, particularly, has been even more challenging. So, you know, what are some of those challenges you’ve experienced? And I’m going to ask a two-parter, but I can ask it again, if you forget. But just some of the challenges you’ve experienced? And then, how do the global concerns about law enforcement affect how you lead?

Regina Lawson (27:59):

You know, the hardest thing I think you and I would both agree that you ever have to do in this work is to talk to a parent who’s lost a child.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:08):

Whether you actually have that conversation or not. But if your campus loses someone-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:13):

… I think we all know that as humans, that’s just hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

It’s devastating.

Regina Lawson (28:18):

Family-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:19):

Right.

Regina Lawson (28:19):

… it’s just hard for the campus, it’s hard-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:22):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:22):

… for the greater community. It’s just really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:25):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (28:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:26):

And it’s so counter to what’s expected when a young person dies.

Regina Lawson (28:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:32):

I mean, any loss of life is hard. But I think it’s something especially devastating about a young life. And then, a community that is surrounded by that life.

Regina Lawson (28:41):

Couldn’t, couldn’t agree with you more.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:42):

Yeah. So, how do you just sit with that and navigate that knowing the heaviness? That’s one example, the heaviness that you experience on any given day.

Regina Lawson (28:53):

I really think it’s… you’ve got to have your network.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:57):

And you’ve got to have people that you lean on.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:00):

And then, I think the other thing is always just being in the continuous improvement.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:06):

How do we take what happened and how we learn from it?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:10):

And how do we move forward? And, and how do we, as an individual, as a team, as a department, as an institution, as a profession-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:20):

Mm-hmm. Right.

Regina Lawson (29:20):

… how do we learn from whatever tragedy has occurred?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:23):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:24):

And that’s part of where I think being in law enforcement today, it’s hard. It’s still a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:32):

I stand by it. I’ll be the first to say problem policing is a problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:35):

I don’t wanna be a part of it.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (29:37):

I don’t want our team to be a part of it. I want to do everything that I can and that we can as a department to create a different experience for our campus community.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (29:47):

And if students come to us with bad experiences, or they have bad experiences here or they have experiences off campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:55):

… or traveling anywhere else, we want to be a place that you can come and seek assistance-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:01):

… seek resources, seek guidance or just seek understanding about-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:05):

… why whatever happened happened. And the other thing I’ll say is if we screw up, we want to own it. And that’s probably not the best language, but we’re going to be responsible.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:15):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:15):

And we’re going to be accountable. And I think… and this is true in general, a lot of times, people’s impressions are through personal experiences.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:25):

And then, sometimes they’re through the personal experiences of others.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:28):

Of someone else. Sure.

Regina Lawson (30:30):

So, we want to make sure that we’re creating that engagement-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:34):

… and that environment that we will… our students in our campus community, students, faculty, staff, visitors-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Right.

Regina Lawson (30:41):

… to have that positive experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:43):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:43):

… where we understand safety means different things to different parts of our community.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:48):

Right.

Regina Lawson (30:49):

And we want to create a safe environment for everyone. And like you said, it’s important to be seen-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:55):

… and to have that sense of belonging.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:56):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:56):

And if there’s a concern, or a question or an incident, I want to be able to communicate about it-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:02):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (31:03):

… and use it as a learning opportunity.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:05):

Yeah. I’ve seen that firsthand. I mean, we engage in work that people will never see publicly necessarily, but just being able to be a thought partner. And I know some early days that we had together when I first started, I mean, we had a series of weather-related events-

Regina Lawson (31:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:21):

… environmental and other challenges. And something I learned from you and your team is this importance of after-action exercises, meaning what worked, what didn’t work, you do that routinely, probably weekly. It could be something that’s not even a public event that you learned from. And I just want to say that I really appreciate that because we will all mess up. That’s human nature.

(31:43):

And when you’re dealing with crisis, of course, you know, you’re making split-second decisions, so acknowledging that. The humility, I guess, is what I see in you, and how you work, and really appreciate that. I think we really have missed the boat when we know everything. You know, we talked a lot about leaning into curiosity, and see that in you and your team. And I think what the community doesn’t always know, and I appreciate that you said it is tell us when-

Regina Lawson (32:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:09):

… something didn’t go right, tell us directly, because you’re the person and your team can address that in a moment, or as soon as you learn about it. And so, can you talk a little bit about the Police Advisory Board, and how that came about, and some of the progress that you’ve made there?

Regina Lawson (32:26):

Yeah. So, fortunately, we’ve had a Police Advisory Board for over 15 years now.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:30):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:31):

And we actually had trouble finding models when we began.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:35):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:36):

Because a lot of campuses did not have them, and ones that a lot of municipalities had were in larger kind of urban environments.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (32:45):

And it was a lot of focus around corruption and just the other things-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:51):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:51):

… that really didn’t… it wasn’t right size for a campus environment.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:55):

And, you know, one of those points of pride is we’ve now had a lot of institutions reach out to us and ask, “How did we get started? How-“

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

Right.

Regina Lawson (33:02):

What was important and to that point, and the biggest point of pride for me with our Police Advisory Board is the investment that people make.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:11):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:12):

And how they are eager to learn more and time is a commodity-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:17):

-In a campus environment, but how they give their time. And through that increased awareness, learning and understanding can help not only coach us and advise us, but also many times advocate because they have the facts and the information.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:33):

Right.

Regina Lawson (33:34):

That’s been hugely helpful and-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:36):

And having people who are not a part of-

Regina Lawson (33:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

… your day-to-day who can shed light and give perspective and ask questions. And-

Regina Lawson (33:44):

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I’ll give, uh, a great example, um, you know, after a tragic officer involved shooting at Georgia Tech many years ago, Police Advisory Board met and I was kind of briefing them on what we know about this incident at this time..

Shea Kidd Brown (33:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:57):

And we didn’t have Tasers at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:00):

And that having that non-lethal use of force-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:03):

… could have prevented that officer from having to resort to using their firearm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:08):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (34:08):

So, we use that as an opportunity to and that was… I mean, the Police Advisory Board took that and really helped advocate for something that had previously had a lot of stigma around.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:19):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:20):

You know, just using the word Taser in a conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:23):

… had a lot of stigma. But through that kind of mutual understanding, everybody learned to realize-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:28):

… this is a tool-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:29):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:29):

… that could prevent excessive use of force.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:32):

Right. And the way that you deploy that is I think sometimes the misconception is that’s the default. There are lots of tactics and tools, but then when that’s not working, then you have another level that’s non-lethal that you can apply. And that’s to me the community engaged in when you said problem policing as a problem that you’ve been very proactive about. Is that fair to say?

Regina Lawson (34:54):

I certainly hope so.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:55):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (34:55):

I mean, that’s our goal.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:57):

And I think creating the culture of care doesn’t happen by accident. It’s very intentional. And I think that we really benefit from having so many people on our team that have had or currently have, or will be having-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:14):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (35:15):

… students in college themselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:16):

Yeah. Such as-

Regina Lawson (35:17):

So, we really look at all of the students as kind of an extension of our family.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (35:22):

We all take it very personal if something happens to somebody.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:25):

Yes, yes.

Regina Lawson (35:26):

We don’t want that to happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:30):

Yeah. And it’s personal. Even if it’s another campus, we’ve seen that recently, some things in close proximity. And then, I’ve seen you just what you’ve done by bringing the area chiefs together. Do you want to talk about area chiefs at all, and what happens there?

Regina Lawson (35:42):

Yeah. So, it’s a monthly meeting and all the Winston-Salem Police Department, Forsyth County Sheriff’s Department, our District Attorney’s Office, Alcohol Law Enforcement, Fire Department, Emergency Management, Emergency Medical Services, and the local campuses all meet monthly. And that may not sound like a big deal, but getting-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:01):

That’s a really big deal.

Regina Lawson (36:02):

… getting all these people together is, is challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:05):

Yeah. I’ve been to those meeting, it’s a big group. And that’s amazing.

Regina Lawson (36:08):

And it’s really believe that nearing that 20-year history of meeting.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:12):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:13):

And we meet once a month, uh, for breakfast. We’ve learned if we don’t meet first thing in the morning, and we wait until lunch-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

Yeah. The day is gone.

Regina Lawson (36:21):

… people will get derailed. Yeah. So, it has become quite the collaboration. It’s a time management issue.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:26):

We… as our departments are moving through event planning to talk about complex investigations that are impacting other campuses-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:33):

… our city in general, you know, share information on new technology, and the partnerships, and the fellowships and being able to call each other by our first names.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:44):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (36:44):

And just knowing that all our departments are large, small, we’re nuanced, but I say we’re codependent.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:52):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (36:52):

Because none of us can do this work alone.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:55):

That’s right.

Regina Lawson (36:55):

And, you know, local agencies appreciate having the campus police departments because look at all those calls for service we take off of their plate.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Right.

Regina Lawson (37:02):

And then, look at all the intimacy that we get to have with our campus community-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (37:07):

… by being a part of that community and not kind of coming in from the outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:12):

Right.

Regina Lawson (37:12):

Like the police department or the sheriff’s department.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:14):

Without any context and that context is really key, especially the more complexities that exist between technology and that interfacing, and just that our college students or students and you protect the whole campus community. But having that context is really critical when you’re partnering and something’s happening, having both involved. And I would say I’ve seen the reciprocal of something going on in the city.

(37:38):

And our team has been there in large athletic events and things like that, where you see it all happening. And even a living past president that I got to watch everything from the local to the federal level unfold, and all the things that our campus never sees. But that’s what we want, is that you can feel protected and safe because things are working as they need to work. And so, we don’t always see that background.

Regina Lawson (38:00):

And I appreciate our emergency manager, Chauncey Bowers. She always says-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:04):

… “You want to be bored in the EOC.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Regina Lawson (38:07):

And the EOC is our emergency operations center.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:09):

So, that’s kind of the brain-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (38:11):

… of a big event, you know, kind of management or the response to the-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:16):

Right.

Regina Lawson (38:16):

… critical incident would be in the emergency operations center.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:19):

Yeah. There’s so much, so many complexities. So, your profession is one of those that people have opinions about because of the public nature, but don’t always understand. What do you want people to know that they may not know about you or about the work that they would not otherwise know?

Regina Lawson (38:36):

Like I said, despite the challenges that law enforcement has had for a number of years, it’s still a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:45):

And there are courageous men and women that suit up every day and go in harm’s way-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:52):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:52):

… to protect the rights of citizens.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:56):

And I think it’s important to just kind of pause and think about that and think about that, we, we lose officers.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:04):

And it is as challenging as it can be at times.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:08):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:09):

We’ve got to have law and order.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (39:12):

And then, that is not something that everybody is willing to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:16):

It’s beginning to get increasingly challenging to recruit people that want… not just police but fire, EMS-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:24):

Sure.

Regina Lawson (39:24):

… you know, all the first responders are, are challenged, but we always got to be there now.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (39:31):

Just call.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

And I appreciate that wholeheartedly. What gives you hope?

Regina Lawson (39:35):

You know, you have to keep hope. And we were talking about continuous improvement. You always learn best from what you get wrong.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:42):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:42):

You don’t learn a lot from what you get right.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:45):

That’s so true.

Regina Lawson (39:47):

And so, I think in the recent decade, law enforcement has learned a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:51):

And as a result, are moving forward differently. Every profession changes with time.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:57):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:58):

Law enforcement is no different. And think that what we’d love to do is really not have a need for us. But sadly, that’s not the case. And I do remain committed to the fact that it is a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:13):

I remain committed to the fact that there will always be people willing to protect and serve.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:18):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:18):

And that there’s still a future in policing for those who are called to it.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:22):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (40:22):

Because it is somewhat of a calling, you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:25):

It really is.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:26):

Yeah. I believe that. Well, there’s a lot that gives me hope. And I’m grateful to get to work with you every day, and learn from you, and to lead with you. And I appreciate you spending some time with me.

Regina Lawson (40:37):

Well, thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (40:38):

This has been a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:39):

Yeah. See, it wasn’t nearly as bad as you thought it would be. (laughs) So, thank you. Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Chief Lawson. From small moments that make a big difference in our career ambitions to hard work and sustainability, I am filled with life lessons. We all have perceptions of what a Chief of Police might be like, and I hope you feel a little more connected to the realities of the human side.

(41:07):

As I often say, we all have a story. I encourage you to think about what Chief Lawson shared and how you might apply that to your life. Thank you for listening. And I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. Truly, you have something to contribute to the world. I kid you not. Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (41:34):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life Team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who serves as the president of our university. Until then, I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.


Episode 6: Jackson Buttler

Episode 5: Heidi Robinson

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with an important member of the student body, who serves as the President of Student Government, Jackson Buttler. You’ll hear about his upbringing, what his time at Wake Forest has been like, the new initiatives Student Government has in mind and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea and this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:45):

I’m excited to talk with Wake Forest Student Government President today, Jackson Buttler. Jackson’s a senior Politics and International Affairs and Communication double major from Raleigh, North Carolina and began his college semester in the height of COVID-19. He’s someone who looks for what’s going right, though, and has been involved as a student from day one. Much of his experience has included Student Government where he has served on a number of committees and has been engaged in a number of initiatives. I first got to know Jackson when he served on the Sexual Assault Prevention Support and Accountability student task force and assisted with the implementation of the sexual misconduct survey that, collectively, the University implemented. Jackson is a passionate student and I’m so grateful that I get to lead alongside him. Let’s dig into our conversation. Hi Jackson. Welcome.

Jackson Buttler (01:37):

Hi Dr. Shea. Thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:39):

I’m so glad that you’re here and that you agreed to join not even knowing what I’m gonna ask you.

Jackson Buttler (01:45):

Oh, I’m honored to be here.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

Yes.

Jackson Buttler (01:47):

So thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

Absolutely. And we talk a lot regularly about University things-

Jackson Buttler (01:51):

Yes, ma’am, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (01:52):

… for lack of a better word, but today is really just about a conversation about you, and so I’m really excited about this dedicated time-

Jackson Buttler (02:00):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:00):

… that we have to dig a little deeper.

Jackson Buttler (02:04):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:04):

Yeah. So you ready to get started?

Jackson Buttler (02:05):

I’m ready.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Awesome. Well, to get started, I think the best place to start is about home. And this has become a common thread with our podcast. So really, I would love for you to tell me the answer to the question I often ask students, which is where’s home for you?

Jackson Buttler (02:22):

Yeah. Funny enough, that’s actually a little bit of a complicated question. So usually when people ask me that question, I claim Raleigh as my home-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:29):

… because that’s where I graduated from high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:31):

That’s where my family lives now. But I actually grew up in Chicago. I lived in Chicago for about 14, 15 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:36):

I don’t think I knew that.

Jackson Buttler (02:37):

Yeah. So I was born in Wrigleyville, grew up there, moved to the western suburbs, small suburb called Hinsdale. I lived there for about 14, 15 ish years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:45):

I moved to Raleigh two months into my freshman year of high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

Really?

Jackson Buttler (02:48):

So I had two first days of freshman year, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Oh.

Jackson Buttler (02:53):

So I got a little perseverance from that for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:55):

Yeah. How was that?

Jackson Buttler (02:56):

That was a interesting experience for sure. I think for a really long time, I was very excited about my high school in Chicago. I was actually, like, taking the train downtown for school. Like, it was great.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:06):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (03:06):

I was in my adult mode. It was awesome. And then, yeah-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Adult as a 14-year-old?

Jackson Buttler (03:10):

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Yeah, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (03:11):

My parents decided to let me know, uh, (laughs), two months in that we were moving to down south and I did not-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

That’s so hard.

Jackson Buttler (03:17):

… know really what to expect. But I’m very glad I did. I mean it was definitely some culture shock moving-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (03:22):

… down here. Especially during 2016. It was right in the middle of the election, two months in and then I was in a swing state. So, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (03:28):

… my political self was all over that.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

What differences did you see from Chicago versus here?

Jackson Buttler (03:35):

Yeah, I mean I would say culturally it’s different. Don’t think I really knew what to expect.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:41):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (03:42):

I think just southern culture is very different than where I grew up in the Midwest, especially Raleigh. I mean Chicago’s a huge city, third-biggest city in the country and Raleigh is what? Not even top 20. So that was definitely a change. And just people’s interests, and passions, and political leanings and, uh, all sorts of different things. To be honest, I did not, (laughs), like the South when I first got here. I just remember so vividly saying like, “I’m getting out of here for college.”

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:05):

“Like, I’m going back up North.” But I’m very glad I did end up staying here we are now-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (04:10):

… four years later, or however many years later. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

Yeah. So what was it about the South that maybe changed your mind?

Jackson Buttler (04:16):

I’d fallen in love with the South I think for a couple of reasons. Like I said, I am a political being at heart.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

Yeah, you got-

Jackson Buttler (04:21):

That’s definitely where my, (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:23):

Yeah. I wanna hear more.

Jackson Buttler (04:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:24):

So has that always been in your heart? Can you remember, like, how early it was that you were interested in politics?

Jackson Buttler (04:29):

Yeah, I don’t know what it was. I just remember, this is so funny and my mom makes fun of me for this all the time. In middle school, I’d wake up early every Sunday and watch Meet the Press. Would make fun of-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

In middle school?

Jackson Buttler (04:38):

… in middle school. I don’t know what is wrong with me. I don’t know why-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Nothing’s wrong with you, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (04:41):

No, I think it’s too funny. So anyway, and I still watch it every weekend. Like, that’s just my thing, and I don’t know what it is. Regardless, yeah, so being in the state capitol in Raleigh-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:49):

… I had all these opportunities to be super involved in politics.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:52):

And so when I was in high school I went and did… they have a page program here in North Carolina where you can go and work at the General Assembly. Did that for a week. Actually wrote my college essay about that. It was super informative. And then I worked-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:03):

… at the governor’s office for a couple weeks, which I really, really enjoyed. And I think it’s just the South has now really found itself into my heart.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:12):

And I don’t ever see myself leaving, you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

So do you think it was the relationships that you made?

Jackson Buttler (05:17):

I think so.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:17):

And being able to-

Jackson Buttler (05:19):

I would say, yeah. I mean I think relationships, I think southern culture’s totally grown on me. Weather’s not too bad, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

It’s not (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (05:26):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:26):

That’s why, I’m like the opposite of-

Jackson Buttler (05:27):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:28):

… you because I have always said that I always need to live in the South.

Jackson Buttler (05:32):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:32):

I need to see the sun come out. I’m from Hattiesburg, Mississippi.

Jackson Buttler (05:35):

Uh-huh.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:36):

I now live north because I’m in a state called North Carolina.

Jackson Buttler (05:38):

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

So.

Jackson Buttler (05:39):

That’s so funny. But yeah, I would say it’s just got something about it, North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:44):

Got a special place in my heart now being here eight years, which is crazy to say.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (05:47):

But um, we’ll see what happens.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

Yeah. Well, I love that. So growing up, did you have siblings or you’re only child?

Jackson Buttler (05:53):

Yes, I have a younger sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (05:54):

She’s at a fellow ACC school. She’s a Clemson sophomore.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (05:57):

And so all four of my family members, including me, my sister, me, my mom and dad, all big football school people-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:04):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (06:04):

… which is just really funny. My dad went to Notre Dame, my mom went to Michigan, my sister goes to Clemson and here I am at Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

I’m just imagining middle school Jackson watching Meet the Press.

Jackson Buttler (06:13):

Oh, it’s so funny.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:13):

That is really funny. So.

Jackson Buttler (06:14):

it’s a sight to see, for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

So at some point, so you’re 14, moved, had a formative experience and we didn’t talk about how Wake Forest-

Jackson Buttler (06:23):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:23):

… kind of, got in the mix.

Jackson Buttler (06:25):

Okay. So this is another really funny story I like to tell. So when I was touring schools, my mom wanted to do this thing where I would go and buy, like, a $15 t-shirt every school I toured, right? And I didn’t tour very many schools ’cause I was picky. Surprise, surprise.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:37):

I can’t believe that (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (06:40):

Yeah. And so I toured, like, three schools and they’re like, “Yeah, let’s tour this school called Wake Forest.” I was like, “Okay, yeah, yeah, whatever.” So I went and for some reason I did not like the tour. Like, I don’t know what it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

Huh.

Jackson Buttler (06:49):

… I did not like it. I was like, “Mom, I’m not buying the t-shirt. Like, it’s not happening.” My mom was like, “No, you’re going here. Like, I know you will end up here. Like I have-“

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

She already-

Jackson Buttler (06:55):

“… zero…”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

She knew it.

Jackson Buttler (06:56):

Yeah. And I was like, “Well you’re, like, full of it. Like, there’s no way I’m ending up here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:00):

Like, “I am going back up north. I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

So you were still set on that at that point.

Jackson Buttler (07:05):

So set on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (07:06):

And didn’t buy the t-shirt, nothing, like, whatever. So flash forward to a year from then, I’m getting these emails for the summer immersion program.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

So wait, you were, four what… 10th grade? Um, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (07:17):

I toured in sophomore year, 10th grade. It was, like, an hour and a half from Raleigh. So it was a super easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:22):

… drive, whatever. So I’m getting these emails for summer immersion program. They did, they had a politics institute and, like, all this craziness where they brought in, like, former governor, Pat McCrory for these high school students-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:32):

… a class of, like, 20 kids. I was like, “Okay, I’m sold. Like, I’m gonna go.” Ding.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Ding.

Jackson Buttler (07:36):

So I went, loved it, really, really enjoyed it. Lived in South. They did a good job. They sold me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (07:40):

They did what they were supposed to do. They-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Nice.

Jackson Buttler (07:42):

… sold me. Got home literally two weeks later applied E.D., got in a month later-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Are you serious?

Jackson Buttler (07:46):

… was done.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

And changed that fast?

Jackson Buttler (07:48):

Done. Wake Forest, I fell in love with it. Lived here for a week. Did the program, loved my classes, ate at the pit. Like, it was great. Loved it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:55):

So what changed from the tour to-

Jackson Buttler (07:57):

You know what, when I was touring colleges, I don’t think I was thinking about the right things. Every college I toured, I knew I was gonna get a good education, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:03):

But when I came to Wake Forest and I said, “Look at how small these classrooms are.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (08:06):

Like, “What? There’s 20 seats in here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:07):

“Look at who they brought in for these high school students. I can’t even imagine who they’re gonna bring in if I’m a full-time student here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:13):

Not to mention, like, I loved the campus, loved the dorms, I loved all the people that I met and all my friends that I had met on the program were all applying early decision too. And they were like, “We’re all gonna come together. We’re all gonna be friends.” And, like, we all still talk. Like, they all are seniors here with me. You know, not my best friends or anything but, like, still really great people that I keep in touch with. And I always say hi when I see them. And that’s the best part about Wake Forest is-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:33):

That’s amazing.

Jackson Buttler (08:34):

… everyone you walk by seems like you have some, sort of, a connection to, and those are-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:38):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (08:38):

… some of the special people that I have a weird connection with. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Yeah. That’s really good. And I had no idea it sparked from-

Jackson Buttler (08:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

… a summer immersion program. I’ve had a chance to participate in some of those.

Jackson Buttler (08:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:49):

And always wonder about the future Wake Foresters-

Jackson Buttler (08:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

… that might be in the crowd. And so I give the soft hard sell, (laughs)-

Jackson Buttler (08:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

… about just how special it is, and-

Jackson Buttler (08:56):

They sold me.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

So thinking about Wake, what are some of the things that have surprised you since you have been here? Because you started-

Jackson Buttler (09:07):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

… in the height of the pandemic-

Jackson Buttler (09:07):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

… as well. So your first year, we were physically on-

Jackson Buttler (09:09):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

… campus but virtual.

Jackson Buttler (09:10):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

So tell me a little bit about that, ’cause that was before I got here.

Jackson Buttler (09:13):

Right. So I was indeed a COVID freshman. I also-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Is that what you call yourself? (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (09:18):

We do call ourselves COVID Freshman. I was a 2020 grad too, so maybe grad isn’t the right word ’cause I didn’t get a graduation, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (09:21):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:22):

So very excited for my upcoming graduation-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:24):

Absolutely.

Jackson Buttler (09:25):

… and that’ll be my first real one. Regardless, the pandemic shaped me a lot as I’m sure it did for everybody. But… ’cause it’s such a formative time in my life, I was figuring out so much about myself. And mind you, I’d already gotten into school when the world shut down-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:38):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (09:38):

… which was rare because I did E.D. So I was done. None of my friends knew where they were going. Like, it was very uncertain. And so at least I didn’t have that weighing on me.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:45):

But I had a lot going on, especially, like, figuring out my sexuality, figuring out, you know, what I wanted to major and what I wanna do with my future. I mean, like, I was locked in a room for however long, forced to be like, “Okay, so what am I gonna do when I get to school?”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:55):

“Am I going to come out and tell everyone that I’m gay, like, one month into college?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (10:02):

So I had so much time to, kind of, think through that, cope with that. Finally, got to a point where I was like, “Okay, you know what? Like, I’m gonna be who I’m gonna be. I’m really happy with this decision. I’m gonna do it.” This is the funniest story ever by the way. Two weeks before I, I moved in, Wake made us all do this spit test, right. And so we spit in the tube, and this was when COVID was really bad.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (10:19):

And so it was really hard to get a test.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:20):

Saliva testing-

Jackson Buttler (10:21):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

… that’s what that was called.

Jackson Buttler (10:22):

Yes. And yes. And so we shipped all the tests off whatever. And I was like, “I know my luck, I just know it’s gonna be positive.” And so… Oh, mind you, like, probably most important is this part of the story, we’re driving to go dorm shopping. And I was like, “Okay, you know what? I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna tell my mom.”

(10:35):

So I told my mom, we’re in the car, like, this super sentimental conversation. I’m like, “Yeah mom. Like, I’m gay. Like, I wanna tell you this two weeks before I moved into college. I want to go to college being my authentic self. Like, I’m gonna come out and I’m gonna do it.” (laughs), get the email from the lab thing. I was like, “Oh my God, it’s fine.” She’s like, “Just open it. Just open it.” So I open the email, positive for COVID.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Oh, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (10:53):

So that was an emotional day. And my mom’s in healthcare so she’s like, “We’re going to…” She works at Duke. She’s like, “We’re gonna Duke, we’re going to get you a real test.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:59):

Hmm.

Jackson Buttler (10:59):

Of course, it was a false positive. So just like the most-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Oh, wow.

Jackson Buttler (11:01):

… emotional day ever for literally no reason. But I think that’s, like, the most hilarious coming out story ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:06):

Yeah, it is.

Jackson Buttler (11:06):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:07):

… it’s very memorable.

Jackson Buttler (11:07):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:08):

So you said something happened and you just really wanted to come to college-

Jackson Buttler (11:11):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

… to be your authentic self. So what was that something?

Jackson Buttler (11:14):

I think just having sat in my bedroom during COVID, had so much time to think. If it was business as usual, there was no COVID, I had time to just sweep it under the rug and I wouldn’t have thought about it, I don’t know where I’d be today if that didn’t happen. And so, I mean, I view it as, like, kind of, a blessing to be honest with you. So finally, thought about it, came out, came to school. Obviously, I told my dad when I got home too. So like, (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:34):

Yeah, ho was that?

Jackson Buttler (11:34):

… don’t wanna leave that out.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:35):

I imagine you were nervous.

Jackson Buttler (11:37):

I was so nervous.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:38):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (11:38):

So nervous. And, and I have the most fantastic parents and family like ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (11:42):

So anyway, my dad came in, like, full PPE like, ’cause they, they didn’t have the rapid tests, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:46):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (11:46):

So, like, literally told my mom, like, in the car-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

It was a different time, mm-hmm, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (11:49):

It was crazy. Like, literally sitting in my room, like, full, like, mask on, goggles on, like, comes in, he is like, “Hey, like, I heard about what happened. Like, I just wanted you to know, like, I really support you no matter what.” And I was like, “Thanks Dad.” And he didn’t wanna come and get COVID ’cause you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:03):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:03):

… at the time we still thought I had it ’cause the test-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (12:05):

… was still being processed or whatever. There’s so much transition, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (12:07):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (12:08):

So like I just come out to my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (12:09):

I was finally, like, in a place where I was like, “Okay, like, I’m gonna be a more authentic self.” And that was so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (12:13):

… hard for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:14):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:14):

I thought once I told my parents, that would be good. Like, we did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:17):

That would be the hardest part.

Jackson Buttler (12:18):

That would be the hardest part. No, that was not the hardest part. And I thought it would be, and I think coming to Wake, I was just so nervous. And I was so cognizant of wanting to make people like me. And d- I wanted to fit this mold. And I’m sure all the first years right now are going through very similar s- feelings-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:33):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:33):

… because you only do college once, you wanna do it right. And so I put a lot of pressure on myself to make sure, you know, I was like, “Okay, I, I don’t want too many people to know. I don’t want people to judge me.” And then finally I got to the point where I was like, “I can’t anymore….”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:44):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:44):

“… like, if you don’t like me for who I am, then, like, so be it.” And I have not had one negative issue, mind you. So that’s been great.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:50):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:50):

Freshman year was a time of lots of growth for me-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:53):

… not to mention, like, meeting people that are gonna be lifelong friends forever. And my first foray into student government and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:00):

Mmh, you jump right in, you were on the Covid committee.

Jackson Buttler (13:01):

I did, I was.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (13:03):

So yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but that was, yeah, really formative and great experience for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (13:08):

And it still is to this day. I’ve loved, loved, loved my classes, and my academics here at Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (13:14):

But nothing compares to what I’ve learned being in the positions that I’ve been so lucky to be in, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

It sounds like you’ve learned a lot about yourself.

Jackson Buttler (13:20):

… I’ve learned so much about myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:22):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (13:22):

And I just… I’m so thankful every day to be able to do what I enjoy doing so much. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:27):

Yeah. Well, that’s the beauty of college. I mean, I appreciate you sharing such a significant part of your story, and college is this unique place where, to some degree, you’re starting fresh.

Jackson Buttler (13:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:38):

You know, there may be people you knew or people you met at the summer immersion-

Jackson Buttler (13:43):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:43):

… but to be able to authentically be yourself-

Jackson Buttler (13:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

… unapologetically be yourself. I think many of us are navigating that-

Jackson Buttler (13:50):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:51):

… or have navigated it.

Jackson Buttler (13:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

I know that I did a few years ago as an undergraduate, (laughs), student.

Jackson Buttler (13:55):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:55):

And I think that message that you said, you know, for first years who are thinking about that. It’s really important.

Jackson Buttler (13:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

I did wanna ask about similar to what I asked you about your parents-

Jackson Buttler (14:04):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

… while you were here, were there specific things that you felt around the university that you didn’t feel that helped you to be courageous in living out who you are?

Jackson Buttler (14:13):

Yeah. I mean, I think I really struggled between feeling this pressure to join, like, a social fraternity and to be a part of something that I didn’t really wa- I don’t know, I didn’t think I, I really would fit in. And so I, I think that is where a lot of that pressure came from.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (14:28):

And so I was so lucky because I found my people elsewhere, and absolutely, like, no hate to people who go that route. That was just not for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Yeah. Well, and finding your people is so crucial.

Jackson Buttler (14:37):

Oh, 100%. And so I found my people elsewhere, and I found my people in places that I did not think I would.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Mmh, like where?

Jackson Buttler (14:44):

Um, like Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:45):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (14:46):

Or, like, the business fraternity. I’m an Alpha Kappa Psi.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:49):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (14:49):

Did not think I would be lucky enough to get into that fraternity, nor I didn’t think I was a big business person ’cause I, I’m not, but it ended up being a really good thing for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:56):

Good.

Jackson Buttler (14:57):

And I just remember before college being like, “I really, really wanna be in Student Government, but I don’t think I’m good enough. I don’t think I deserve this.” And that was just as, like, a first year senator. Like, mind you, now, I’m, like, (laughs), Student Body President, and I still have those feelings.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:10):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (15:10):

But the-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:11):

And I just wanna pause for a second, ’cause you said, “Mind you, I’m Student Body President, and I still have those feelings.”

Jackson Buttler (15:16):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:16):

I mean, I think that’s important for people to hear.

Jackson Buttler (15:18):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:19):

‘Cause they probably assume, like, you walk into a room, and you’re fully confident.

Jackson Buttler (15:23):

Oh yeah, yeah. Imposter syndrome is very much a thing, and definitely something that I think all of us struggle with. Uh, me, especially.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (15:30):

And I didn’t think I would be able to pull off me winning that election. And mind you, it was really funny too, because I won in a runoff by one vote.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:39):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (15:39):

And so for Senator, like, freshman year, first year did not think I would win, I did, and I was shocked.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (15:47):

And so I was like, “Okay, like, this is clearly for me. I love this.” And so I threw my all into it and it gave back.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (15:54):

So, I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

So what are some of the highlights that you’ve experienced? ‘Cause you have the benefit of, you’re not quite finished quite-

Jackson Buttler (16:00):

Not quite.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

… you got some work to do.

Jackson Buttler (16:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

But you’ve got that rear view a little bit.

Jackson Buttler (16:02):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:02):

So what are some of those things that come to mind?

Jackson Buttler (16:04):

So I’m just so honored to be able to have done some of the things that I’ve been able to do. And I think all of it is a testament to the people that saw me and saw potential in me, and fostered that and helped me to grow-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:17):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:18):

… and showed me that because I am certainly was not, and I’m not now, and that I made many a mistake along the way.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:24):

That’s where learning happens.

Jackson Buttler (16:25):

Clearly. And… So I shot my shot when I ran and I won. And so then I really wanted to keep growing in the organization.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:30):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:31):

So I shot my shot again and I applied to be, um, like a cabinet member, a co-chair. And I didn’t get it. This was freshman year, so first year.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:36):

Oh, okay.

Jackson Buttler (16:37):

And I was, kind of, expecting that, whatever. And then Ally, who was the Speaker of the House at the time, who was, like, my biggest mentor ever. I remember she called me and she said, “Hey, I just want you to know, I see so much in you and I really wanna give you the opportunity to have some, sort of, a position of leadership…”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:51):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (16:52):

“… and I wanna let you grow.” And obviously, COVID was still such a huge issue.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:56):

And so she said, you know, “All of our committees are so constantly working on COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID, that they can’t do what they’re supposed to be doing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

What they’re supposed to be doing, like, we were in higher education too.

Jackson Buttler (17:06):

Yeah, seriously.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:06):

I mean, we had to create separate committees-

Jackson Buttler (17:08):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

… because we wanted to still be able to do our jobs. I was at a different university at that time, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (17:13):

Yeah. And so she said me, along with someone, you know, very well, Cate Pitterly-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:17):

… were asked to be the COVID liaisons, what they called us-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (17:21):

… which looking back was just really such a fun time, you know, getting to work with all of these higher level administrators as a first year student was so eye opening to me, learned so, so, so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:32):

What d’you learn?

Jackson Buttler (17:33):

I learned a lot about leading by example.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (17:36):

This is at a time where people didn’t quite care for some of the public health and safety measures that were put in place by government, the state, the university, what have you. And of course, I wanted to go out and be social and be with my friends-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:50):

… but my position was to be the student that’s in charge of handling all the concerns for COVID.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:56):

So I had to lead by example. And so that were a lot of nights in my first year at Wake Forest where I was like, “Dang, how badly do I really wanna go and be with my friends right now, and break all these rules…”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:05):

“… and do all these things, but I can’t.” And I’m glad I didn’t, and I don’t want that to sound, like, I had, like, the worst freshman year and didn’t do anything social ’cause that’s not what happened.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Yeah, but it was a hard time-

Jackson Buttler (18:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

… I mean, for everybody.

Jackson Buttler (18:15):

And I learned how to… something that, you know, I have to do even now, is go into a meeting with administrators or leaders and say, “Hey, this is what’s going on…”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:23):

“… and this is where you got it wrong, or this is where you could be doing things better.” And I think I learned a lot from that. I’m still, kind of, trying to perfect those skills.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:31):

And there’s always room for improvement, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

Yeah, it’s an important skill. Being able to provide a counter narrative-

Jackson Buttler (18:37):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:38):

… or to disagree or-

Jackson Buttler (18:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

… you know, those skills are really important to be able to learn that your first year.

Jackson Buttler (18:43):

Yeah, it was really, really formative-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:44):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:45):

…and I enjoyed it a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:47):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:47):

And so, you know, I got my taste, I enjoyed it.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (18:49):

And so I said, “You know what, like, let’s keep going.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:51):

You enjoyed it in the worst of times.

Jackson Buttler (18:52):

If I could enjoy it in the worst of times-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:53):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:54):

… then, I guess, that bodes well for my future in, in Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:57):

So, you know, I worked my way up in the organization. I was Campus Life Co-Chair, which was great because that was when you first got here.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:02):

And so I got to work with you since your very first weeks here, which I’ve loved.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:07):

Me too.

Jackson Buttler (19:07):

Thanks.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:07):

And, um, another thing too is just Student Government isn’t responsive, right? I mean, something happens on campus. Le- it is the duty of the organization, at least, in my view, to do something about it-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:15):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:15):

… ’cause I’m such a solution oriented person. And so we had this university-wide reckoning on sexual misconduct, interpersonal violence, and I just remember being like, “I need to do something about this…”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:29):

“… like, I need to do something about this.” And Pilar, one of my good friends, I just remember I called her and I was like, “Pilar, like, we need to do something about this.” And then we talked to Ally, and Ally would then become President, wanted to uplift us and say, “Hey, you know, like, this is a great opportunity for you to make some change.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:42):

And going back to the imposter syndrome thing, I felt really guilty for a long time because I felt like I didn’t have the right to be doing that work.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:49):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (19:49):

I felt like I should leave it to people who have had those experiences, and I felt like I should let someone else do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:58):

And that was a process for a long time. And eventually, I brought it up to Pilar and to Ally and they said, like, “Just because you haven’t experienced this does not mean that you aren’t the right person to be doing the work. Sometimes people who have experienced this can’t handle the trauma and bearing to do that…”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (20:12):

“… and the fact that you wanna put yourself in that position and do this difficult work should not be something you feel guilty about.”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:18):

Yeah, and being an advocate sometimes is, or an ally, is your voice may be louder if it’s unexpected.

Jackson Buttler (20:24):

Yeah, yeah, right. And so I learned a lot from that experience, so much from that experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:26):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (20:27):

I hadn’t had much experience in the past with dealing with issues of that magnitude. It was obviously really difficult. And so there was so much change going on, so many things, and I just wanted to get it right. I wanted to get it right so badly. And I was so lucky to have Pilar, kind of, leading the way and credit where credit is due. Pilar did an amazing job, and I’m so thankful to have worked with her. But did the campus climate survey. Helped to get the highest turnout of any piece of institutional research here on campus, which is one of my most proud achievements.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Yeah, we very much appreciate that.

Jackson Buttler (20:57):

Yeah, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

It was great to partner with you.

Jackson Buttler (20:58):

Yes, it was. And so learned a lot about that and then ran for Speaker, and did the Speaker thing for a year. Loved that. Learned a lot from that. And then that was, kind of, like, President-in-training-wheels-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (21:08):

… and ran for President. Here we are. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:10):

Yeah, I love that you mentioned Ally early on in your formative experiences and Student Body President, and then Pilar became Student Body President. Now you have become Student Body President, and it was my first interaction with you was-

Jackson Buttler (21:24):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

… getting the climate survey off the ground.

Jackson Buttler (21:27):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

And even getting it implemented and sharing the findings.

Jackson Buttler (21:30):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:30):

And that was a real gift-

Jackson Buttler (21:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:31):

… to be able to have students to talk to about what’s working, what’s not working, what’s the message? How do we continue this work?

Jackson Buttler (21:37):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:38):

And thanks to your good work, we also have a permanent group of students-

Jackson Buttler (21:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:42):

… who are committed and working with Student Government, and the Office of Wellbeing-

Jackson Buttler (21:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:46):

… as we think about that. So senior year, President. So I wanted to do questions-

Jackson Buttler (21:51):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:51):

… two parter-

Jackson Buttler (21:52):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:52):

… what are you excited about? And then what are the things that make you concerned or worried?

Jackson Buttler (21:56):

Yeah, this is something that I have been working towards for a really long time, and it feels really rewarding to be able to do the job of people that I idolized freshman year.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:08):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (22:09):

And I, like you, am such a relational person. I’m such a communicator.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:13):

I love people. I love talking. I love speaking. And that has been such a gift. I have so enjoyed getting the chance to get up on a podium and talk to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:24):

And to make people feel like their voices are heard.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:28):

And, you know, a kind of, a recurring theme that we’ve talked about is, like, I really like to see a problem and find a solution.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:35):

And, you know, that was COVID, that was interpersonal violence. That was SAPSA and as things come up this year, you know, my wheels are turning. And so it’s been truly, like, such an honor. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:45):

And I think one of my favorite parts, and it’s not something I really thought would be my favorite part, is getting the chance to mentor younger students.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:52):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

And now what Pilar-

Jackson Buttler (22:52):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

… and Ally were to you, you can be for other people.

Jackson Buttler (22:57):

And that just feels like such a gift.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:00):

And it’s something that I would always say to them, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for putting time into me, and developing me as a leader, developing me as a person, because I would not be where I am.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:10):

And they would always just say, “Pay it forward.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:12):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (23:12):

Like, I wanna do this for you so that you will do this for the next person.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:16):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:17):

And, kind of, tangent, but two of my mentors are former Presidents from, one was from 2017, when I was from 2019. And I mean, I get coffee with them every time I go home, or every time I’m up in D.C.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

That’s great.

Jackson Buttler (23:27):

And they are incredible people that have put a lot into me, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:31):

And every time they’ll pay for my coffee and I’ll be like, “Please, like, I… You don’t have to pay for my coffee. You’re on a government salary, like…”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (23:38):

And they’ll be like, “No, just when you’re in my position, just do the same thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:41):

Do it for somebody else.

Jackson Buttler (23:42):

And so that’s been so rewarding, and I’ve really, really enjoyed being able to do that. And I’m excited for our, our first years looking forward to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:50):

But in terms of some of the challenges, you know, like I said earlier, this is a very responsive job. I don’t have to tell you that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:58):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (23:59):

Um, you know, something comes up and you have to solve it. And I’m a person that really enjoys a good challenge.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:03):

And so when something comes up, and thinking through how we’re gonna solve it is something I always have really enjoyed. But I think the biggest challenge for Student Government is… Well, I guess, there’s two, and they’re tied into one another. It is communication, how do we get students to listen to what we’re doing-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:19):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:19):

… to want to be involved in what we’re doing? And then tied into that is getting the buy in.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:23):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (24:23):

So put on these events, we’ll, we’ll put on all this work, and then no one will show up. And I don’t blame you. We’re busy people. I get it. Lots going on on campus, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:30):

On campus, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:31):

But it’s definitely, you know, it’s saddening sometimes when you put all this work into something and then it doesn’t get the turnout that you would have liked, or it doesn’t get the response from the campus community that you would have hoped. And it’s always from a good intentioned place. And it’s always something that we could be doing better. But regardless, we’ve been working really, really hard on the external aspect of Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (24:49):

Last year, was super internally focused, right? So we did all these changes. We created all these new branches, and I got to do that as the Speaker and Pilar was the President. And so I, kind of, helped with that behind the scenes. And Pilar left me with perfectly tied up organization-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (25:03):

… that organized so well. And then I was like, “Okay, so now we have the internal stuff handled and I can help see that to fruition, like, on one side.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:11):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (25:11):

And then there’s the other side, which is like, “Okay, student body, we really need to work on rebuilding those relationships and it’s not anyone’s fault, it’s just…” I think it was a combination of COVID and some contentious elections, and all sorts of things, like, a lack of trust. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:24):

Yeah, and COVID is a big part-

Jackson Buttler (25:25):

Oh, for-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:25):

… I mean, when you just think about how you “do college,” if you could see me, I’m air quoting-

Jackson Buttler (25:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:31):

… and so reengaging the student body around these issues is important.

Jackson Buttler (25:33):

Right. So I think those are the main two. And, obviously, policy wise, I could be here for, you know, all night if you wanna talk about that, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (25:41):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (25:42):

But I think those are obviously very, very important aspects of the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (25:46):

But I think the most important aspect of the job is making sure that people feel heard because I could have these five policy things that I really wanna work on as President, and that’s great. But that wouldn’t be honoring the job that I was elected to do by 5,400 students. And it’s not about me, it’s not about what I want. And if I really wanna do something, and the rest of the student body says, “There’s just something else that’s more important.” Then that’s what’s most important.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:08):

But if they don’t know how to do access to Student Government, or they don’t know what we do. There are 60 students in an organization that really care and wanna make your experience better, then it’s all moot right-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:18):

Mmh, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:18):

… at the end of the day. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:20):

Yeah, so what are y’all thinking about in terms of that communication strategy?

Jackson Buttler (26:23):

Yeah, this is… very excited about this. You asked a great question.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (26:26):

So I’m rolling out this new, I don’t know what to call it still. And it’s gonna be headed up by two amazing, younger students and student government. We’re gonna be called, you know, outreach committee and the outreach committee is gonna be in charge of this new program we’re doing called President’s Corner. And so every month, we’re gonna bring together students from different organizations, depending on what category they’re in, right? So September, we’re gonna do all the religious student organizations, all of their Presidents or leaders. We’re gonna bring them into a room and we’re gonna talk.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:56):

And I’m gonna say, “What’s going on, what concerns can I bring and how can I serve you all better?” Then the next month, we’ll bring in all the student athlete leadership, and then the next month, we’re gonna bring in yada, yada, yada, right? Greek life leadership or, or health and wellbeing leadership. And, and so every month, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (27:10):

… we’ll have these new feedback loops. And then after the fact, I’ll have that relationship. And so someone hopefully, will feel comfortable enough to come to my office that’s in 304, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (27:21):

Um, doors are always open. And come talk to me. And I know it can be intimidating and that’s also why I try to be, like, the least intimidating person, (laughs), ever because I want people to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:31):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (27:31):

… and to be vulnerable with me, and to share what they’re going through so that I can go and bring those concerns that they don’t have to.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:36):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (27:37):

And that sometimes is one of the most difficult parts, is being the advocate. And it’s a skill set that not everyone has, and it’s one that I’m really lucky to have, and I want to be able to do that for people.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (27:50):

I mean, it’s something that I care so deeply about.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:51):

Yeah. Well, and it’s listening.

Jackson Buttler (27:53):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:54):

I mean, it sounds a lot like what you’re hoping to do is listen-

Jackson Buttler (27:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

… and have smaller groups-

Jackson Buttler (27:58):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:59):

… and organized ways to listen. Um, you know, as you’re talking and reflecting back a lot of what I do, it’s one thing to say from the stage, “Come. Send me an email.” (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (28:07):

Right, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Um, but if I’m interacting with someone up close and I say, “Hey, it’s good to see you again…”

Jackson Buttler (28:13):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:13):

“… let’s pull out our calendars right now.”

Jackson Buttler (28:14):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:15):

“Or let’s…” You know, shoot me an email right now.

Jackson Buttler (28:16):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

That way I can work on it. And very similarly-

Jackson Buttler (28:20):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:20):

… I have become very accessible, and want students to have that, and you and I work great in that way, because students may bring a concern to you that I haven’t heard about yet.

Jackson Buttler (28:30):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:30):

And we have a regular meeting where we can talk about those things.

Jackson Buttler (28:33):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

And that’s a, a really important part of leadership. Something I wanna just loop back to, that you said is, “I could have some really great ideas in my head, but then I get them out, (laughs)…” I’m paraphrasing-

Jackson Buttler (28:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:43):

“… and I get them out and that’s not really what students are wanting.”

Jackson Buttler (28:45):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:46):

And I think that’s, um, the essence of leadership-

Jackson Buttler (28:48):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:48):

… whether you’re in higher education, or you’re in politics later in your life.

Jackson Buttler (28:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:53):

Or if you’re a teacher or a nurse, it’s about listening to people.

Jackson Buttler (28:56):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:56):

And we always have a better solution together than we do apart.

Jackson Buttler (29:02):

Right, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:02):

And that’s not necessarily profound or anything we’ve never said, but I think we forget, like, our egos get, (laughs)-

Jackson Buttler (29:07):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:07):

… really engaged in what we wanna do. And so being able to shift and the days that I’m not tuned into what students want, I’ll say, I may text you-

Jackson Buttler (29:18):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:19):

… and you I may talk to other students and say, “Hey, what are you hearing? What do you need?”

Jackson Buttler (29:22):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:22):

Um, so then we can just keep our ear to the ground on what’s most important to students.

Jackson Buttler (29:27):

Yeah, I could not agree more. I think that is truly the most important part of being a leader, is knowing when to not use your voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Mmh. Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (29:36):

And I think that’s something that you have to get better at. Everyone has to get better at.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (29:40):

And I think it’s one thing that I’ve really, really focused on this year-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:42):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (29:43):

… is letting other people do the talking, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:45):

Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (29:45):

As a talker myself, that can be a little difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

And drawing that out in other people.

Jackson Buttler (29:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:48):

I think that’s a thing. Like, you can use your voice, but it’s to ask questions, not to give answers.

Jackson Buttler (29:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:52):

So, we just got real serious, you know?

Jackson Buttler (29:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:55):

There’s a lot of complexity-

Jackson Buttler (29:56):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:56):

… as it relates to Student Government. So how do you unwind? What do you do for fun?

Jackson Buttler (30:02):

That’s a, (laughs), that’s a loaded question.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Do you unwind?

Jackson Buttler (30:03):

Yeah, do I, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Do you pause ever, Jackson?

Jackson Buttler (30:07):

Yeah, (laughs). Yeah, it’s okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:07):

I know I’ve told you, “Hey, you could pause.” (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (30:11):

(laughs), yeah, you would not be the first, and I’m sure you’re not gonna be the last either. But, I mean, I think this year too, especially, is, like, a time that I’ve really had to prioritize me.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:19):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:20):

And I’m really not good at putting boundaries up.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:23):

And I’ve had to do that this year. And it’s been, I think, one of the best parts of the job is making me do things that are, are difficult, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (30:30):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:30):

And being able to tell people no. And having a support system of people that, A) will tell me, “Jackson, stop. Like, this is not a good idea.” Or people that’ll be like, “Okay, no more work tonight…”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:40):

“… like, let’s do something fun.” But with that, I mean, I know you talk about this, you work out every morning. I mean, like, so do I.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:45):

Like, that is, like, I’m not a morning person though, mind you, I’m a night.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

Yeah, well, I work in early in the morning-

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

… schedule emails and I work out.

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

There you go.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

Yes,. (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

I’m a night workout person ’cause I’m crazy, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

(laughs) yes.

Jackson Buttler (30:56):

Working out, journaling, shameless plug for the UCC, have been going there since my freshman year, therapy, so important. And you know, just knowing when to, like, laugh and knowing when to have fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:06):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:07):

And I think anyone that knows me and my leadership style will know that, like, yes, when it’s time to get serious, we’re gonna get serious, but it’s also, like, not that serious all the time-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:14):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:14):

… and we can have fun and we can make jokes. And I think that’s, like, my best memories of student government have been of us doing goofy things, and just having fun because it’s a serious organization and yeah, we’re relaying concerns and helping to make our campus better place, but I do this because I enjoy it both in an advocacy standpoint, but also from a, like, “These are my friends. These are my….”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (31:35):

“… people that I care about.” And I’ve learned so much from them and they are some of the best people that I’ve met on this campus. And so just-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

So sometimes for you, work is play?

Jackson Buttler (31:44):

Oh yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:45):

I mean, work always is play for me. Like, the way that my brain works, I need to be focused on, like, one thing at a time. And so that’s why, like, my one thing for these past four years, (laughs), has been Student Government. And so I’ve put my all into it. And so I try and think of fun things to do within that realm-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:00):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:00):

… or genuinely do, like, love this job so much. And I enjoy it where I don’t get burned out doing this because it’s something I love. Not to say, you know, like, sometimes it’s just like, “I need a break.” But it’s different than, you know, reading a bunch of stuff for your classes and you’re just like, “Okay, like, I’m so burned out. I, I don’t wanna do this anymore.”

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (32:16):

Whereas, I get energy from this because it’s something I love so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:19):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:20):

And so I would so much rather be in this position, working super hard, and get tired at the end of the day, then not have the opportunity to do this at all.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:28):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:28):

And so I think that’s, kind of, the way that I look at it.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:31):

That’s when you know your passion-

Jackson Buttler (32:32):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:34):

… and your strengths, and your values align.

Jackson Buttler (32:36):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:36):

… is it could be exhausting and it’s also exhilarating.

Jackson Buttler (32:39):

Yes, clearly.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:40):

What’s your favorite spot on campus?

Jackson Buttler (32:42):

The Student Government Office.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:43):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (32:44):

And a lot of people don’t know that we have an office.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:46):

Other than the Student Government Office, I’m gonna let you get in that plug-

Jackson Buttler (32:50):

Okay, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:50):

… but then I want a place outside of that.

Jackson Buttler (32:51):

Okay. I really love, as it is colloquially known, freshman land. I love that road that goes all the way down in front of Collins, in front of South-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:00):

Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:01):

… in front of Angelou, behind Johnson, and Bostwick, and all of those. I think that is the most beautiful, beautiful part of campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:06):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:06):

I always love, like, going on runs there.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:08):

That is a beautiful too.

Jackson Buttler (33:09):

Yes, so beautiful. So I love that part of campus. There’s not a bad part of this campus. We’re… I’m so lucky to have been able to spend four years here, and this sounds such a, like, plug for Wake Forest. Who doesn’t love the quad, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (33:20):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (33:21):

Like, who doesn’t love that view looking out? Nothing beats, like, a Wake Forest commencement on the quad. So beautiful. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:28):

That’s very true, yeah, I’ve taken the same photo at least a hundred times.

Jackson Buttler (33:31):

Yeah, right, (laughs). Going back, I live in that office. Like, that is my favorite place ever. It’s where all, like, all the memories when I look back in 20 years, and I’m like, “Okay, college, like, that’s what it’s gonna be.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:41):

And it’s not even from a, like, “Oh my gosh, I’m working here all the time.” Like, all of my fun times, like, it’s a perk that, like, I might as well use, right? So, like, I’ll get lunch with my friends, I’ll be like, “Oh, let’s go back and, and eat here.” And it’s just, like, always a place that I am going to have very fond memories of. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

And have you always hung out there, even before you were President?

Jackson Buttler (33:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (33:58):

‘Cause Speaker gets an office too.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (33:59):

So last year, I had one and that was great.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:02):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (34:03):

I was with Pilar all the time and now my Speaker, Michael, is also my roommate and so I’m with him all the time, (laughs). And it’s just like, it’s such a great place. These are all like, my best friends are all… It’s like their home base. And especially because we’re seniors now, we all live off campus. And so it’s like, get in and put our stuff down. And it’s just like our home base for the day.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:18):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (34:18):

So I get to be in and out seeing all my friends all the time. And that’s just, you know, it’s a nice perk, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:22):

Yeah. Well, as we start to close our conversation, there’s a whole lot we could talk about.

Jackson Buttler (34:28):

Yeah, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

I am curious. You talked a lot about your formation as a student-

Jackson Buttler (34:31):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:31):

… your identities, what you’ve learned about yourself, what you’ve learned about others. As students are progressing through-

Jackson Buttler (34:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:39):

… so 1st year, 2nd year, 3rd year, 4th year, you can decide who you want to talk to.

Jackson Buttler (34:41):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

But what advice would you give them as you do your final lap, um, here-

Jackson Buttler (34:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:48):

… what are things that you would want students to know?

Jackson Buttler (34:50):

I would say do the hard things, do the things that you are so petrified to put yourself out there and do because it results in the most profound growth.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:02):

Like, running for President was the hardest thing that I think I have ever done. And yet I am so glad I did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:10):

Whether that’s auditioning for the Banshees, or, like, trying out for a team, or just putting yourself out there, like, do the hard things. If you don’t try, you won’t know. And this is so cliche, but it’s like, you get kicked down, get back up. Like, perseverance is something that has become so ingrained in me because you are gonna get knocked down. I don’t have to tell you that. And if you just keep going and you get back up and you try again, you’re gonna succeed. And I need to tell that to myself all the time. So like, like, I hope people don’t feel, like, I’m preaching to them saying like, “Oh, I have this perfect scenario.” And trust me, I have hard days all the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:44):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:45):

And I have to tell myself those exact same things. Like, just get up and keep going because there are better days ahead.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:52):

Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (35:52):

So that would be my advice. And I think there’s so many opportunities here. There’s so many ways that you can get involved. And I chose to get involved in Student Government. And I decided on a whim to run and one by one vote in my first year at Wake Forest and here I am. So especially for first years, if you are interested in something, do it. That interest is coming from something and you might as well try.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:13):

Yeah, do the hard things.

Jackson Buttler (36:13):

Do the hard things.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:15):

I love it. And it sounds like you’ve always had a community of people supporting you as you do the hard things.

Jackson Buttler (36:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:21):

So I always love to end with hope.

Jackson Buttler (36:23):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:24):

You know, where there’s so much to be hopeful about. So what are you hopeful about? It can be as general and as wide of a lens as you want it to be, but-

Jackson Buttler (36:34):

Mmh, what does give me hope? I think I’ve gotten a lot of hope seeing the new faces of our first years every year. But I’m so hopeful to see what these new first years accomplish. Or, you know, the sophomores that I’ve gotten to work with over the course of the last year, or the juniors. And I’m so hopeful because they are all such incredible people that care so deeply. And I’m sure, you know, Pilar would have said that last year, and Ally hopefully would have said that.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:04):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (37:04):

And that’s the best part about being in college, is that every year, it’s a new makeup of people. And then when you’re finally a senior, and you get to see all three classes below you, it’s like, “Dang, like…”

Shea Kidd Brown (37:18):

(laughs).

Jackson Buttler (37:18):

“… I can’t imagine how people must have looked at me when I was a first year.” I think I thought that I was an adult when I was a first year. I thought I did. I thought I knew everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:28):

We all did at 18, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (37:31):

Le- let me tell you, (laughs), that is not… could not be further from the truth. I mean, I’m just so hopeful and I can’t wait to come back in two years when the current sophomore student is the President and like, see what’s changed.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:43):

Yeah, there’s a lot to be hopeful for and I agree. College is this unique place that changes so often-

Jackson Buttler (37:50):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:50):

… and every year, there’s a new combination and you throw in student study abroad coming in and out of the experience. So there’s a lot to be hopeful about, especially at a place like Wake Forest.

Jackson Buttler (38:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:01):

So I really appreciate you spending time with me and sharing, and it’s such a gift to work alongside you and, um-

Jackson Buttler (38:08):

You as well, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

… I know that there’s lots that you’re gonna accomplish-

Jackson Buttler (38:11):

Oh, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:12):

… in the company of amazing students. And then hopefully I can be a big support and cheerleader along the way, so-

Jackson Buttler (38:17):

And amazing administrators like yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:20):

Oh, thank you.

Jackson Buttler (38:21):

So, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:21):

Well, thank you for spending time today.

Jackson Buttler (38:22):

Thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

Absolutely. Wow. So I hope you took from that conversation as much as I did. I so appreciate my conversation with Jackson Buttler, hearing about his student experience, all the things that he learned. And whether you’re a current student, or a family member, or an administrator, or someone not connected to Wake Forest, I think there’s a lot that can be taken from that conversation.

(38:45):

To do the hard things, to be courageous, to be yourself, and to continue to be hopeful about the days ahead. So, thank you for listening, and I look forward to our next time together. Each of you has something to contribute to the world. I kid you not.

MaryAnna Bailey (39:03):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who leads one of the most important departments on campus, the University Police. Until then, I’m Marianna Bailey, and this was Kid You Not.

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with a member of the university’s counseling department, who also serves in a leadership role in the Office of Personal and Career Development, Heidi Robinson. You’ll hear about the long journey our guest had that brought her to Wake, how she’s utilized her personality in her field of work, what she is like away from the classroom, how her upbringing shaped who she is today and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea and this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:47):

I am so pumped to talk with Heidi Robinson today. Heidi serves as Associate Vice President for Career and Personal Development and is an Associate Professor of Practice in our Department of Education at Wake Forest University. She teaches a very, very popular course series called College to Career and I’ve heard students just rave about it. In addition to that she’s been working at Wake more than a decade and really challenges and supports students to find meaning and purpose in their lives. During her time at Wake, she’s also been nominated for a plethora of awards, but the things I know about are that she completed a leadership development program.

(01:27):

She’s also been designated as an A scholar for her work in service learning. And she also received the North Carolina Counseling Department New Professional Award. Heidi facilitates all kinds of innovative opportunities for student athletes, leading professional development for men’s and women’s basketball, football, women’s golf, and Student Athlete Career Development Night. She is also a fashion enthusiast and you won’t see this on her bio, but I really appreciate her fashion, her wardrobe. And she’s an overall ray of sunshine and someone I take notes from very regularly. And Heidi, I’m so excited to talk with you today. So hello, my friend.

Heidi Robinson (02:06):

Hello.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:06):

And welcome.

Heidi Robinson (02:07):

I could not be happier to be here. And I feel terrible because I feel like I made you laugh before you had to say an intro.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:13):

We have been laughing a lot already, so (laughing) it should be a good time. How are you feeling about it?

Heidi Robinson (02:19):

I sit here delighted to be with you, let me be clear about that part. And I started my professional life in a profession where I put microphones in front of people because I did not want them in front of myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Oh, this is a little roll reversal.

Heidi Robinson (02:31):

Yes, quite a bit, actually. And so, I sat here just kind of feeling cringy like, oh-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:35):

It is and as the students say, cringe.

Heidi Robinson (02:39):

Cringe, a little awk. I got a little of the ick (laughing). Spent a lot of time with students.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:43):

We’re gonna be giggling a lot, I can already tell. Well, it’s gonna be fun and we have had a lot of time to connect, as early as when I was interviewing for this job.

Heidi Robinson (02:53):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

Because you were on my search committee.

Heidi Robinson (02:55):

That was an honor.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

I appreciated that and I distinctly remember us connecting at the Graylyn and we’ve been connected since.

Heidi Robinson (03:01):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:01):

So, but this is a chance for us to maybe hone in and just connect on a different level. So, I’m really excited about it.

Heidi Robinson (03:09):

I’m delighted and honored to be with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

While you cringe.

Heidi Robinson (03:12):

And it’s always been, I do cringe. You bet, absolutely. You, you just saw me, I sprayed lavender spray on myself (laughs), take a deep breath.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

She sprayed lavender for us, so that we would relax (laughs). And, um so let’s dig in. Are you ready?

Heidi Robinson (03:25):

Let us begin.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

Alright. So, I like to start with home, you know, our origin stories say a lot about who we become, who we-

Heidi Robinson (03:33):

Indeed.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Have been, who we still are. And so, it just always feels natural to start there. So, I want to start with a question that I often start with when I’m introducing myself, which is where’s home for you?

Heidi Robinson (03:46):

Where is home?

Shea Kidd Brown (03:47):

And I’ll add a bonus question.

Heidi Robinson (03:49):

Oh, good. I like a bonus.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Yes. What does home mean to you?

Heidi Robinson (03:51):

Oh, whoof. I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

We’re starting with a softball.

Heidi Robinson (03:55):

Yes. Wow, there was not much runway there (laughs). I’ll doing my best. Home is such a big, big four-letter word.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Yeah, it’s a big word.

Heidi Robinson (04:05):

Yes, it is a big word. A big, very important one. So, I’ll take it into two different places perhaps.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

That’s great.

Heidi Robinson (04:10):

I was born in the state of Washington.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:11):

Mm-hmm.

Heidi Robinson (04:12):

So, I was born there. I consider myself a West Coaster at heart. That informed a lot of the way I see. But I’m sure it wasn’t just the West Coast-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (04:20):

It wasn’t just being from the Pacific Northwest. But there is something about the way that felt very open both in terms of space. And it’s a place still that’s very new in the United States. And so, there’s still something in there that feels like a place of beginnings, opportunities.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Growth.

Heidi Robinson (04:37):

Yes, yes, growth. And that’s where I started right outside of Seattle but I grew up primarily in Gig Harbor, Washington. And so, in between that time, so I had a little stint, my mom and I in DC, a little stint in California. And then the vast majority of that time in the state of Washington where I grew up thinking that gray was beautiful. I didn’t know that rain, but most people-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

You know, the sunshine.

Heidi Robinson (05:00):

I didn’t. I will tell you, I just thought that rain was pretty. That was my day, that was every day that I’d say, “Oh, rainy day.” And I feel like yeah, a rainy day.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

That’s normal.

Heidi Robinson (05:08):

You can just get wet once.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:09):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (05:09):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

So, your hometown is that a small town? Is it-

Heidi Robinson (05:14):

Very much.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (05:15):

When we first moved to Gig Harbor, there was one high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:18):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (05:19):

There was one middle school. And then it was wild when we had two high schools. Divided the town.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:26):

Two, yeah. A revolution….

Heidi Robinson (05:26):

And the time we got our first grocery store. “Oh my gosh, now, a Safeway ah, what’s gonna happen here?” Yeah, it was okay and my parents were teachers. And so, my folks were initially at the high school. And then I had one parent at one high school-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

Oh, y’all bridged that gap.

Heidi Robinson (05:42):

One parent at the other, oh, yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

My mom was a teacher.

Heidi Robinson (05:42):

So education.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

What grade?

Heidi Robinson (05:44):

My mom started, actually, in middle school, junior high they called it then.

Shea Kidd Brown (5:50)

Oh yes

Heidi Robinson (5:51)

She did English, I know. And then she went into high school. And my dad, high school history for him, social studies. And for her, she started out in what is called Home Economics. No-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

Oh, yes.

Heidi Robinson (06:01):

An oldie but a goodie. And then when she went back to grad school, she became a counselor, I know shocking-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:06):

Yeah, right.

Heidi Robinson (06:06):

… with an interest in careers. Her father, vocational counselor.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:11):

Oh, wow, I didn’t know all this stuff.

Heidi Robinson (06:11):

Yes, yes, my grandfather played baseball and football. First generation college student, first generation student athlete at Washington State University. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:18):

Yes, they’re having a very good football season right now.

Heidi Robinson (06:20):

They are, they’re having a time finding a place to live. But speaking of homes, that’s kind of my Mom’s side of the family. That’s how we got to higher education, was athletics.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

Ah.

Heidi Robinson (06:28):

And so yes. He said, “Bob, what are you gonna be when you grow up now that you had this great experience of going to college?” He goes, “I’m going out to find other Bob Campbell’s.”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:35):

Oh, okay.

Heidi Robinson (06:36):

And I think about that every day.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

Yeah, that’s cool. And who was Heidi as a child?

Heidi Robinson (06:40):

Oh, my goodness.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

Like, what were you like?

Heidi Robinson (06:41):

Oh, let me think. Oh, I can think about some of (laughs), maybe I’ll think about that as comments that I remember. How’s that?

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (06:50):

Heidi, use your inside voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:52):

Me too! (laughing). My mom would say.

Heidi Robinson (06:53):

Heidi.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:59):

It’s like, that’s a nice way of saying that.

Heidi Robinson (06:59):

It is. She would sometimes say, “Heidi, you’re a little gushy (laughs).” And I don’t even know if anybody uses that word but I knew what it meant.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:06):

What did she mean by that?

Heidi Robinson (07:06):

I think that there were so many words, like, gushing out of me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Oh, got it.

Heidi Robinson (07:10):

Yes, yes, yes. I just, all the language, yes. I loved to read, oh my goodness. I loved all those words that I was using because it was so much fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:18):

So, when you got in trouble, was it for talking?

Heidi Robinson (07:20):

Talking in class, talking in the car.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

I remember distinctly, I was in third grade and we were going on a trip and I was so excited. It was a trip that involved me getting a new dress. And I just was talking and talking, talking. My mom says, “Oh, baby you just like talking (laughs),” and she still tells that story. My mom, it came in handy, now I talk a lot (laughing).

Heidi Robinson (07:40):

I was practicing.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

I majored in talking.

Heidi Robinson (07:43):

That’s right, it worked out.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:44):

It did.

Heidi Robinson (07:45):

Lean into the strengths. But yes, I had so many report cards that would say, “Heidi does a very nice job and blah, blah. Also, she visits a lot with her neighbors, (laughs) Heidi visits during class.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:57):

Yeah, what I thought was a Southern phenomenon but I guess it’s a Pacific Northwest…?

Heidi Robinson (08:00):

Yeah, it sure did. “She visits in class, sometimes Heidi is chatty.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

Yes, love it.

Heidi Robinson (08:05):

Well, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (08:05):

I love it.

Heidi Robinson (08:07):

Everyone had to ice their ears once they had me in class. No telling what the teacher said.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

I would imagine you were a great student, you just were gushy.

Heidi Robinson (08:14):

I was (laughs) gushy, I had a lot to say. And I think I was a pretty good student most of the time. But there were a lot of things that caught my attention. Literature was fabulous, I would read that literature and I would enjoy it. And then if somebody started talking next to me, I also really wanted to give them my attention also.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:28):

Yes, absolutely (laughing).

Heidi Robinson (08:31):

So, was I a good student? I think I was a good student. I probably would have been a great student if I just could have, uh, maybe stayed right there in the focus margin.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Well, I mean, what is a good student? So, we could talk about that later. But it’s like-

Heidi Robinson (08:43):

I appreciate that.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:44):

I think the curiosity and the personalities which you do a lot in your work are designed for certain students who have long attention spans, who can sit from eight to three, who follow rules.

Heidi Robinson (08:56):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:56):

Who were structure-oriented. Now I, I did well with structure but I was a talker. My mom was actually on my same hallway. So, my mom taught kindergarten, so those first through third grades I was just right above her and my second-grade class was right across the hallway from her.

Heidi Robinson (09:13):

(laughs) oh, gosh. Thank you, I actually appreciate that your mom let all of those words come out.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (09:18):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

Yes. And do you have a sibling?

Heidi Robinson (09:20):

I do. So, I have what I would call a complicated family tree.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:24):

Okay. It’s not uncommon.

Heidi Robinson (09:25):

It is not uncommon. And I actually like talking about it because I like our students to know that unusual family trees are a strength.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

They are.

Heidi Robinson (09:33):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:34):

And you learn a lot.

Heidi Robinson (09:34):

You learn a lot. What I would say is, do I have siblings? Yes. I actually am one of technically, let me just think about how I’m gonna, I’m one of seven.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (09:45):

I know. I (laughing) my parents were married for four years and that marriage did not persist for them. And then not long after that my dad died.

Shea Kidd Brown (9:56)

Mmm.

Heidi Robinson (9:57)

Right before I started kindergarten. And my mom remarried and the person who has been my dad since they married had four children from his first union. So, then I went from being an only child (laughs). And they didn’t live with us but they would come over, oh, I loved it because they all were significantly older than I was.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:14):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (10:14):

And then my mom and dad had my brother and my sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:18):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (10:18):

I’m the hinge.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

That is an interesting role.

Heidi Robinson (10:19):

I was there, it is an interesting role.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Did you feel caught in the middle, is the word I’ll use. But please don’t let me define that for you. Like, what was the middle like? Maybe is a better question.

Heidi Robinson (10:29):

Yes, I love that actually. I do really feel like a hinge, because I feel like the connection.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:34):

Mm-hmm.

Heidi Robinson (10:34):

And so, I knew Jim, Monica, Chris, Noelle, then I kind of was there. But then I grew up primarily with Rob and Amy. And then I’m very close with cousins right there too.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:44):

Right, and such a gift.

Heidi Robinson (10:44):

And so, I always felt like the oldest.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:47):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (10:47):

But I think (laughs) that part’s pretty easy to identify.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:49):

No matter what the age.

Heidi Robinson (10:50):

Oh, my goodness, yes. I was definitely the oldest. And then it was sort of I guess, I think of myself as the person who the hinge, the connector but the bridge-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (10:58):

Between those parts of my life, but also my parents’ lives.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (11:02):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

So, that makes a lot of sense because I think of you as this ray of sunshine. And this, just really positive energy, I’m not just saying that. Like I, you come into a space, even as we frantically both come in from working, and you’re just a joy and a delight to be around. So, knowing home-

Heidi Robinson (11:22):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:24):

And what home has been for you, really that makes a lot of sense.

Heidi Robinson (11:27):

Well, thank you. I received that and I also as a two on the Enneagram, I cringe with compliments. I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no, no. No, it’s you (laughs). It is you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:38):

You have to open up….

Heidi Robinson (11:39):

Yes, I have to accept but-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:39):

Yeah. I got to do the Enneagram, I haven’t done it before.

Heidi Robinson (11:42):

I think you would enjoy it.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:43):

I will have you type me. But that might be another-

Heidi Robinson (11:45):

Yes, as a counselor, I would say you have to choose for your, you know (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

Very true.

Heidi Robinson (11:50):

Tim Auman, who always just I feel his wisdom in so many ways when I am with him. One of the things I’ve heard him tell students but he has also said to me, “We always want to put our best foot forward. We should pay attention to the one that we’re dragging behind.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Tim Auman is-

Heidi Robinson (12:05):

Tim Auman.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:05):

I mean full of wisdom for those who don’t know Tim Auman, he’s our chaplain. That’s so important.

Heidi Robinson (12:11):

I mean, and I feel that for myself, but I feel like also, Wake Forest. We are full, we’re a community of people who are achievers and want to do great things. And so, that best foot forward sometimes feels so natural to put forward. And when we talk about things like a family that doesn’t look like a portrait necessarily, it’s an interesting tapestry. It sure is a ma- mosaic.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:31):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (12:31):

There was a time when that didn’t feel good talking about that. But you really just want to say, “This bright, shiny picture. Have you heard of the sunshine family? That’s us, woo!” But actually, I appreciate now thinking about the fact that being in those spaces and what home feels like, that it can feel bigger. That to me really informs who I want to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:51):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (12:52):

I want to have that feeling of being home with other people.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:55):

Yeah. Well and you give that. I mean, you give that sense of home, you did it for me and as students and staff and faculty talk about you in that way. And I think you’re right, no one connects with perfection. You know, I think we all have this hope that we got it all together.

Heidi Robinson (13:10):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Students call it Wake Face. And it’s like none of us have it-

Heidi Robinson (13:15):

No, no.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:16):

Quote, if you could see me, I’m air quoting, “all together.” And it’s where that beauty of disconnection and dysfunctions at some level, and Brene Brown calls it the messy middle. It’s where the magic happens and I think that’s, I mean you do that so well and I appreciate you sharing that story with me and those who are listening. Because so many of us, students, faculty, staff, community members, whoever might be listening, are imperfect. And our family structures, I mean, I divorced when my son was three. And that’s something I’ve learned to be able to talk about more openly and not as a badge or, uh, attention seeking but to say we all have a story.

(13:55):

We all have a journey, we’ve all had twists and turns and roadblocks and fits and starts so whatever symbolism you want to use and so much more than titles, or our credentials. It really is this story that I think makes, I don’t know, it’s a heart work. You know, as I talk about hard work and heart work.

Heidi Robinson (14:13):

I love the heart work and I do love exactly what you just said. No one can identify with perfection, we might aspire, that is something to unpack too, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:22):

It is, true.

Heidi Robinson (14:22):

Like thinking about that that would be the aspiration because it’s such an empty shell.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

Absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (14:28):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

And then we can laugh and be silly and then that invites other people to let their guard down. And what you said about belonging, you know that is no matter what your story is, everyone has one.

Heidi Robinson (14:40):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

And so, then you begin to think about, “Oh okay, what were the things that shaped my life?” You know, I grew up in Hattiesburg, Mississippi and I think you know that and so. Oh, they said visit (laughs) in Washington too. Uh, so then there’s a connection point or you know, even you talking about your siblings. I have two siblings, I have two brothers born in three different decades. So, even though our families are very different, I connected with you to, to understand like you were in the middle, I’m in the middle.

Heidi Robinson (15:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

Um, but in a very different way. My older brother was a first year in college when my younger brother was born. So, that certainly framed, I always felt like the oldest-

Heidi Robinson (15:18):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

I still do.

Heidi Robinson (15:19):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:20):

Even though, one is significantly older than me.

Heidi Robinson (15:22):

You give them, let me see if I can get it right for that Gen Z-ers, or you’re giving first child vibes. You’re giving first (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (15:30):

We work on our-

Heidi Robinson (15:31):

I try.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:33):

Staying younger. I’d say to my non higher ed friends, I’m always a step ahead and with my students, I’m always at least a couple of steps behind.

Heidi Robinson (15:39):

My gosh.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:39):

So, that keeps me very grounded, very grounded. So, talk to me about where home is for you. What does it mean?

Heidi Robinson (15:45):

Yes. What does it mean? Oh, boy. And I actually like thinking about home not as just a location.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Same.

Heidi Robinson (15:52):

Because it’s true. I grew up in the state of Washington, but now I’ve lived in the South longer than I lived on the West Coast. Even though I say how much that informs me. I think I need to really stop to think about how much that informs me as much as I think it does.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

Hmm, yeah.

Heidi Robinson (16:05):

Because I’ve now lived here. I mean, I know there’s some foundational pieces-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:09):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (16:09):

Developmentally, I can think to myself, indeed, that is true. And that I’ve lived in the South since I was 21. That wasn’t yesterday.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:20):

Are you sure?

Heidi Robinson (16:20):

I’m pretty sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:21):

I feel like it was like, a couple, you know, a couple of years.

Heidi Robinson (16:24):

Do you, every now and then I think it was more recent than it actually is but.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:27):

Well, slight sidebar. I said this to someone earlier today, higher ed makes you think you’re a lot younger, because-

Heidi Robinson (16:34):

That is true.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:35):

Every August, it’s like it’s August, it’s time to start. It’s really exciting and our seasons are the same. We have a fall semester and we have a spring semester and students do what they do in the summer. And we come back and we have a fall semester, and students move in and its football season every fall, our undergraduate students are 18, and every fall, we are not.

Heidi Robinson (16:52):

(laughs), I will add to that. If you walk around and everyone around you is young, you might be confused and think to yourself, I’m surrounded by young people, surely I am too. And as you were saying that-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:05):

Delusional. Isn’t she delusional?

Heidi Robinson (17:06):

And apparently the new word is delulu.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

Oh, okay.

Heidi Robinson (17:08):

I’m full of these things today.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:09):

Word of the day.

Heidi Robinson (17:10):

Word of the day. Nina Banks, the wonderful Presidential Fellow in our office is the one, she gave me a preview. She said, “I’ve got one for next week.” And I said, “What is it?” I said, “Oh, wait, wait, wait. I’ll save it, I’ll save it and wait for that.” And she said, “Are you sure?” And I said, “Okay, just say it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:23):

Tell me.

Heidi Robinson (17:23):

Delulu (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (17:28):

I have to try that out with my 14-year-old and see. Because he’s someone else who keeps me very grounded and connected to all the things.

Heidi Robinson (17:33):

Speaking of home, my great-grandmother would say, “Bless your,” she would sometimes say soul or your heart. And so, I grew up in the state of Washington, hear that, but it really did mean there. “Oh, I’m so sorry.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:44):

Right, not “hmm.”

Heidi Robinson (17:46):

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:48):

Well, we cut it to “Bless.”

Heidi Robinson (17:49):

Yeah, I do like saying that too. “Bless.” See those are things that I picked up in my journey. So, it’s where you can be yourself, I guess. I’m gonna try to come back to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:58):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (17:58):

I guess there are a couple levels to it, probably more than a couple. But there’s a way of helping other people feel so that they can take off their shoes, metaphorically. And so, I think that’s the way I want to be with people because I think that that is the way I want to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:16):

Yeah. I think it’s beautiful. You don’t need that affirmation for me, but I do. I think it’s safety-

Heidi Robinson (18:20):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:20):

It’s security-

Heidi Robinson (18:21):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:21):

It’s being yourself. That’s my definition of it. Being-

Heidi Robinson (18:24):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:25):

Unapologetic.

Heidi Robinson (18:26):

Yes. Don’t apologize to me for leaving something on the counter, it’s probably gonna be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:31):

I love the idea of taking your shoes off, being comfortable.

Heidi Robinson (18:34):

Yeah, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:34):

Inside and outside of yourself.

Heidi Robinson (18:37):

Yes, my two children, my sons. We taught them early on, as soon as they walked through the door to take their shoes off. And part of the reason we started doing that, one of our friends was in cancer treatment. And her oncologist had said “90% of the germs in home come in on shoes. And we went to visit, we needed to take off shoes.” So, I thought, “Well, if I’m gonna have them do that there I need them to do that here so that it becomes second nature.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:58):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (18:58):

So, open door, take off shoes, open door, take off shoes. So, at home, home is our barefoot selves. And so, that’s when I guess when I say home is a place or people with whom you feel like you can take off your shoes.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:12):

Yeah, that comes from…home.

Heidi Robinson (19:12):

Yeah, it really does come from home and it is that go ahead and pat across the floor.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:18):

Yeah, I asked that and I love student responses especially right now as we record, I say where’s home for you and they’re like, “Collins.”

Heidi Robinson (19:24):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:24):

And I’m like, “That’s so beautiful.”

Heidi Robinson (19:26):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:28):

Because in four weeks that has become a place that they can take their shoes off. In a short time many of which are from, home is, is Washington or home is Oregon or home is Collins or Babcock. You know, that’s pretty powerful and then they go, “Oh, you meant like-

Heidi Robinson (19:45):

Yeah-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:45):

“Where I just moved from?”

Heidi Robinson (19:45):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:48):

Yeah, but I want you to describe home for what you want to describe it, so.

Heidi Robinson (19:52):

That really gets me because that’s what I hope students feel here. That they feel that this is a safe place that you can go ahead and pad across the floor, wherever that is, if it’s on the quad, or this is a place where it’s been set up to be safe for you.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:07):

In the classroom.

Heidi Robinson (20:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

It’s an opportunity to define that. Because we also know that home may have a negative connotation for students who are transitioning from their physical space to Wake Forest. Or, you know, they may be seniors or graduate students, so I think that gives an opportunity to say it. I’m thinking of music and The Wiz.

Heidi Robinson (20:28):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

You know, that song “Home?”

Heidi Robinson (20:29):

Oh, my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:33):

Yeah, and so it’s “When I think of home, I think of a place where there’s love overflowing. I wish I was home, I wish I was back there.” And she was, of course, talking about Kansas. There’s love and there’s acceptance, and there’s belonging and-

Heidi Robinson (20:44):

A level of familiarity with what you can expect and that you matter, and that you have a space there.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:49):

Yeah. So, I know that we could stay there. And I feel at home, I feel home right now.

Heidi Robinson (20:55):

Yeah, I do too.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

I have things that I want to know about you, but also don’t want to rush our time, you know, and thinking about this. And I think I could go on a lot of different directions. I think where I am curious is I know where you are now and I know now more about upbringing and family. What happened in the middle there? (laughs) So, you know, after school, I have that.

Heidi Robinson (21:18):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:19):

And then I, somewhere 10 years ago, you came to Wake Forest.

Heidi Robinson (21:22):

(laughs) yes, indeed.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

Tell me what happened.

Heidi Robinson (21:25):

The other part of the story, right? So, growing up in the state of Washington, I never believed I would not be in the state of Washington. And I’m not sure how that is for everyone but I imagined Gig Harbor, Washington as sort of the center.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:37):

For life.

Heidi Robinson (21:37):

Yes, I knew it so well. And then as it turns out, someone from that same area, we met and he, my wonderful spouse of now 33 years, we started dating.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:50):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (21:51):

And he was in Tennessee and so we-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:54):

But you met in college?

Heidi Robinson (21:55):

We met while I was in college.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:56):

While you’re in college?

Heidi Robinson (21:56):

Yep, yes, right. He was already working and our families had been friends for years. And I just didn’t know they had an older son, I knew Jay’s brother like this. Yeah, and then this is one of the craziest stories I feel like I tell is my own wedding story (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (22:14):

Ooh, now I’m intrigued.

Heidi Robinson (22:15):

I know, I know you know. So, I had girls that were in my sorority, I had a Greek experience. So, I lived with 70 girls and some of them had bride magazines, I could never understand that.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

While they’re in college?

Heidi Robinson (22:25):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:25):

Just planning.

Heidi Robinson (22:26):

I couldn’t get my mind, I didn’t understand why you would have it and I had no interest in having one.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:30):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (22:31):

My mom was a counselor, very engaged in her own career, so was my grandmother. I mean, that was sort of my reference point, right? So, you sort of you know what you know because you see it. So, I never had a bride magazine. And then as it turns out, we planned our wedding for after I graduated from college.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:49):

Are you serious?

Heidi Robinson (22:49):

I am. I started college, the day I turned 18. That should be illegal, that should not be possible.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:57):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (22:57):

It’s way, way young, which means that I am telling you, I graduated from college and planned my wedding for that summer. That doesn’t feel like a feminist thing to say.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:07):

Like immediately after?

Heidi Robinson (23:08):

Not immediately, I went home and planned to finish or for me to finish. I was absolutely finishing all of my things. I taught swimming lessons in my parents’ pool. And so, to help pay for my wedding, I think I probably paid for my wedding dress with the swimming lessons.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:21):

Hey that’s pretty cool.

Heidi Robinson (23:21):

It was pretty cool. And then we moved, I planned to start my internship as soon as I got to Tennessee.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:26):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (23:26):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

And, and you majored in communications?

Heidi Robinson (23:28):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:29):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (23:29):

Yes. And that is where my spouse was and at that point he’d been there for a minute. So, we were going where his job was, and I was going to make sure I found a job. But Shea in TV, they don’t come to campus recruiting, you have to go to them.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:42):

I was going to say, you have to send in-

Heidi Robinson (23:44):

Oh, yes, yes. From my campus station, which although we were good, everyone remembers our School of Communication. And then my first job when I was in college still, I did, there were cut ins on the CNN Headline News for the local. So, I did some of those. I sent those. I sent little projects I’d done my senior year. And my news director said, “This is great. I’ll hire you as an intern.” I said, “Nope. I will have graduated.” And he said, “I’ll hire you as an intern.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:09):

Do you want to start?

Heidi Robinson (24:10):

That’s right, that’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:11):

And what city were y’all in?

Heidi Robinson (24:12):

That was in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:13):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (24:14):

So, I wrote a check back to my school for my unpaid internship and started. I know, so I always tell students, it makes sense when I look at it from 54, looking back, but at the time, it was trudging forward with my best smile on my face and my jaw gritted.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:30):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (24:30):

Because it was, “What is gonna happen here?”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:32):

Exactly, you did not know.

Heidi Robinson (24:33):

I did not know. So, I did my first unpaid week. And my news director literally swaggered up, I feel like that’s how it was. And he said, “Do you want to work for money?” Yes, yes actually.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:43):

Absolutely, sign me up.

Heidi Robinson (24:43):

That would be wonderful. And he said, “Our morning show producer is going to be open, our morning show producer role. Okay, I said, “Yes, I’ll take it, thank you.” Which meant I was getting up in the morning at 2:30.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:54):

Now had you done producing or had you been on the other side?

Heidi Robinson (24:57):

I had done both.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:59):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (24:59):

Maybe that was sort of the program, you kinda do the whole thing. So, yeah, the first year of being married and being a young professional, I would get to work-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:07):

You’re getting up for makeup at 2:00 or I guess you were producing so-

Heidi Robinson (25:09):

They, they never saw me in make up for a year and a half, the people at my station.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:12):

Yeah. You just rolled out of bed.

Heidi Robinson (25:13):

Just rolled out of bed.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:14):

Did you go to bed at like six?

Heidi Robinson (25:16):

Yes, I did as a night owl.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:17):

I have a friend who works in the Winston Salem local news or but, you know, if you try to call her at like 9pm you’re not gonna get her because she’s already in bed.

Heidi Robinson (25:25):

She’s in bed.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:27):

Very much in bed.

Heidi Robinson (25:28):

Very much. Yeah, so that was what I did. I like to tell students, “Your first job is not your dream job, it’s not going to be.” And I will tell you getting up at O’dark thirty and being in a newsroom by myself typing up different things, making sure that I had things going, that was not my dream job. Six months, and it wasn’t my dream job.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:47):

You weren’t on the today show at 21?.

Heidi Robinson (25:48):

Shocking. But then, you know, within a year I started doing consumer reporting. Did a morning show, I did a live shot from my hospital room after I gave birth to Blake Robinson.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

What?

Heidi Robinson (26:00):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:00):

Are you serious?

Heidi Robinson (26:00):

100%.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Because going back to that perfection piece, I mean, in that world, how important this aspiration of perfection is, yet, what viewers love are, I mean I have never been in that field. But what viewers love even when I’m unscripted or when I’m shooting live, people love that more. And I’m like, “Oh, no,” going back to that whole cringe.

Heidi Robinson (26:23):

And TV is a breeding ground for perfectionism. And it’s such a high emphasis on exterior. A lot of, it is a training ground for really reinforcing some of that.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:35):

Yeah, the negative things.

Heidi Robinson (26:36):

Yeah, some of those pieces that-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

What is beauty-

Heidi Robinson (26:38):

Yes, all of that-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:40):

Representation.

Heidi Robinson (26:41):

That’s so much. So, that part was never going to fill my soul. Transitioning back to giving birth to Blakey-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:47):

Giving birth, birth to Blake. Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (26:48):

Yes, I gave birth to Blakey at 10:42 am. And by noon, they were pulling cables through my hospital room.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:53):

(laughs) oh my god, that’s wild.

Heidi Robinson (26:55):

(laughs) uh, yes. And so, then I was holding Blake and Jay was there and we did a little live shot, “This is John Blakely Robinson.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:02):

“Welcome to the world!”.

Heidi Robinson (27:02):

Yes, yes. So much fun. Now I’m glad I did it. At the time, I thought, “I’m really not just feeling my best.” But I was still-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:11):

Yeah, no. No biggie.

Heidi Robinson (27:12):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:13):

Well, things were different. And I think about today with phones and, you know, how different that might have been too. But I want to go back to something you said about this whole journey of film and producing and all that. I’ll get it wrong, I won’t say it as eloquently as you did but this whole notion that it was the next step, it wasn’t your whole life. (laughs) You know, and so, so often, we pressure ourselves, our students, you know, wanna know the whole picture and that it’s all going to be perfect. And, and they, they work really hard and we’ve worked really hard in our lives. But we have the benefit of life to look back and say the next step just leads you to the next step.

Heidi Robinson (27:52):

Oh, and to that whole idea of wanting that things to look perfect. TV made you want things to look perfect.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:59):

Yeah, I bet.

Heidi Robinson (28:00):

But I think the parallel for our students is social media. And so, the benefit of both being on TV where you can take, take after take. “You don’t like that one? Let’s do it again.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:09):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (28:09):

“You don’t like that cut, take it again.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:11):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (28:11):

Until you get it, air quote, “perfect.” Pressure to making sure that it’s all perfect. That translation is what I see our students dealing with, but they deal with it daily. And I think for me, for my soul, TV is fun, it is a fun business to be in. I enjoyed it, it was good to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:28):

Yeah. Not all good..

Heidi Robinson (28:29):

Yes, there was a lot and there were parts of it that really were soul sucking to me. I really loved the “look at me culture” enough. I could have been satisfied with that but I will tell you, I know exactly where I was when I decided it was time to step out. There were two times I stepped out. One I stepped out when I found out that I was going to have my second son.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

Oh.

Heidi Robinson (28:50):

Yes, and so it just became a time when I wondered how much I was going to be able to do it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:59):

And that’s such a-

Heidi Robinson (28:59):

Yes-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Big Question.

Heidi Robinson (29:01):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:01):

Especially for women.

Heidi Robinson (29:02):

Yes, for women and I’ve had this conversation both with women and with men and thinking through what does that look like? And I appreciate the men who will ask the question, too. I appreciate the idea that my son’s asked that question, how do I have a whole life with my partner? And so, for me at that point, I really thought I have to love this thing enough that drains me. It takes a lot of effort to make it look perfect. Or I have to decide what I love more. And so, I did freelance TV for a long time and then really the time when I decided that I was stepping away from TV more fully was when I went to graduate school here at Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Okay, Hmm. I love this segue to Wake because I have to say, when Heidi’s at an event and you have your name and your title and then all of your Wake Forest credentials (laughs), Between your degrees and your son’s degrees, you have a special badge.

Heidi Robinson (29:52):

It’s a lot, I almost need a second badge. It’s so silly, I always joke it looks like I have seven children, which I would have loved to have had seven children. As it turns out, I have two but there’s a lot of Wake Forest in our family.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:01):

Very well educated (laughs)

Heidi Robinson (30:02):

Yes. So, I was doing freelance TV, doing what my friends called this part of my life my cause TV, which I loved. I was doing this particular story was about a grandmother who had taken in her grandchildren. Her son was in Iraq as a soldier and her daughter-in-law had left the hospital and left the third baby in the hospital. So, grandmother had come in, grandmother’s on disability, sold all of the furniture out of her house on the first floor, she kept the beds. And so, the story was about this ministry, an organization of men. And what they had was an entire warehouse of furniture and home, any supplies you might need to set up a home they had it, all neatly organized.

(30:41):

And what they would do is load up literally a truck and take it to people who needed it. So, this woman, I’d gone and it was the story we were shooting it the day after Thanksgiving, I went in. And there were no chairs, you could see the remains of their Thanksgiving meal, which she made for all three of the children for herself, you could see it at the kitchen counter.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:59):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (30:59):

There wasn’t a place to sit. And so, we go in, I’ve done the interview with her. The children are just delightful and we’ve talked about what her needs are and why she hasn’t told her son, what’s going on because he is away.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:12):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (31:12):

She doesn’t want to burden him, yeah. But she also doesn’t know how to get more help.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:16):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (31:17):

Here rolls the truck.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:18):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (31:18):

They opened the back of the truck, and these very, very kind retired humans start unloading it. Beds, Ottomans, sofas, dishes, you name it. Whatever it was, they started filling her house and she came as we all would in her human space undone.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:37):

I bet.

Heidi Robinson (31:37):

The children were jumping on the sofas, jumping, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:40):

Oh, so happy.

Heidi Robinson (31:40):

Jump, jump, jump, jump, jump. All they could see was the happy piece but she was undone. And she’s sobbing in my arms and I, even telling you this story it gets me every time, because I’m holding her and my photographer, he’s tapping his watch. He’s like, “We got it, you have all of the things. You have it, you’ve got great video, you’ve got audio, you’ve got the emotion of this, we’re done.”

Shea Kidd Brown (32:07):

But meanwhile, I’ve got this woman in my arms.

Heidi Robinson (32:09):

I have a human who is absolutely wide open and raw and sobbing and I don’t want to leave her-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:17):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (32:18):

Undone.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (32:19):

And I thought in that moment, I am not going to do this unless I have some skills. I need to help her bind herself up together enough because she’s got these littles who are now jumping around her and she needs to start her life and take the next step with them.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:32):

Yeah, it also sounds like the dissonance was this profession that was capturing this beautiful moment. But once it was captured, it was time to wrap it up and go.

Heidi Robinson (32:41):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:42):

And your heart was all about staying in that moment.

Heidi Robinson (32:45):

Yeah, this human. Yes, amazing story and it was painful for me to have to think about leaving her-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:54):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (32:54):

Without feeling like I’d at least helped her kind of stitch things up so that she could go and do the next thing she needed to get for herself and her-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

Yeah, like you said the leaving undone, that’s the doing good also requires kinda staying-

Heidi Robinson (33:08):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:08):

With the person-

Heidi Robinson (33:09):

Yeah, that’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:10):

And making sure the needs get met.

Heidi Robinson (33:10):

And I applied to graduate school-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:13):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (33:13):

Within like the next (laughs) like the next four weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:13):

I was gonna say where that where you were like-

Heidi Robinson (33:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Counseling.

Heidi Robinson (33:18):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:18):

Or had that been in your heart before that moment?

Heidi Robinson (33:23):

I thought at some point, I would go to graduate school. And genuinely I thought, it might be Counseling, it might be the Divinity School because both of those help people find their places of growth and open to them things bigger than themselves. And so, I applied to counseling and when Sam Gladding called me and said, “I would like to invite you in,” I can tell you just where I was. Because I fell to my knees and I thought, “Thank you, this is a great answer.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:49):

Yeah, that’s amazing. That would not have found you without this journey-

Heidi Robinson (33:54):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

Of saying yes to the-

Heidi Robinson (33:58):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

Unpaid internship that turned into a yes for a paid job that turned into more opportunities to help you find the place. And even-

Heidi Robinson (34:06):

The place.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:07):

… in higher ed, it’s like, what I love is that within this sphere, the space that we get to occupy, there’s so much, you know, like you’re not practicing counseling right now yet you are totally practicing counseling right now.

Heidi Robinson (34:21):

I hope so, I hope so.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

You know?

Heidi Robinson (34:23):

I hope so, because I think about that as just being in a place to support people in their growth, natural transitions. And that to me is everything about what I want to be helping people into places where they grow into who they want to be and into their own story. That would be even the connection to me for why I probably love TV in the first place.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

Yeah, totally.

Heidi Robinson (34:44):

I was telling stories.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

Telling stories, yeah.

Heidi Robinson (34:48):

But then, I guess the way I see it now is I’m helping other people tell their own and write their own, write their chapters.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:54):

Right, absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (34:55):

Instead of me doing it for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:57):

Right, you know, as you talk to people about meaning and purpose as I talked about your intro. Tell me about, what are those conversations like with students? Does it feel like a natural pathway to figuring out career for them?

Heidi Robinson (35:12):

Sometimes, I think students, I’m back to that strong internal pull toward perfection and certainty. And the beauty of life is in the imperfection, it’s in the messy middle Brene Brown. And it is in the journey, which is sometimes uncomfortable, it’s, sometimes the road is muddy, and you know, you are pulling your boots out and taking that next step that’s tricky, and that’s the best way. So, I think that strong pull for the perfection piece is something that we have to continue to have conversations. I have to have them with myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:52):

Yeah, me too.

Heidi Robinson (35:52):

So, I wish I would say I was free from the pool of perfection.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:57):

Oh, the same.

Heidi Robinson (35:57):

That’ll be the day that I think someone plants a hydrangea over me (laughs). All that to say, I hope that there’s at least along in my own trying to free myself from that, trying to help others free themselves because not only is it a terrible burden, but it’s such a trap.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:12):

It is, because you can’t get there.

Heidi Robinson (36:14):

No, no and even if we did, what would that look like?

Shea Kidd Brown (36:17):

Exactly.

Heidi Robinson (36:17):

It would look so different from one to another and-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

And it would be disconnected.

Heidi Robinson (36:20):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:21):

Like what we said earlier.

Heidi Robinson (36:23):

Yes. And so, I think for our students, when I think about having those conversations, it’s about sitting with the very, very uncomfortable concept of ambiguity. And having enough faith in yourself or that Steve Jobs has this, quote, “Have enough faith in yourself or in whatever it is that you believe in that if you’ve taken the steps to get here, you can take the next steps to get there.”

Shea Kidd Brown (36:45):

Absolutely, you’re very trained in the brain and part of the brain in psychology is mastery experiences. So, it’s this notion of if you’ve done it once, and it might have been shaky, it might have been scary. You might not have felt like you did it, but you did it.

Heidi Robinson (37:02):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

And I think helping students understand that is really how anything is, quote “mastered,” as a speaker. I remember breaking out in hives in college-

Heidi Robinson (37:12):

Oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:13):

At the notion of a speech, at the notion of an interview, and now I’m like, “Oh I got an interview (laughs) this is so fun.” You know, but it, I had to do it. And then it got better and then it got easier and now it’s very, I always get nervous, though.

Heidi Robinson (37:28):

Oh, me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:28):

You know.

Heidi Robinson (37:29):

And when I first started having to do things like speeches, if you’re doing something in the TV world, oh, you must love to speak to groups. That is false, there is nothing easier than looking at one eye, which is the camera lens, rather than 1,200 eyes in a room.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:44):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (37:44):

And so, I feel the same way. I would shake and I was uncomfortable and people say, “Oh, that seemed good.” And I thought, “Oh my gosh,” I had to really do a lot of mental gymnastics.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:54):

Oh, totally. Well, Gretchen Rubin talks about acting the way you want to feel-

Heidi Robinson (37:58):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:59):

Have you ever read the Happiness Project?

Heidi Robinson (38:00):

Well, I’ll, I’ll always tell, act as if. If you remember there’s a theorist too who says it, why can’t I think of it. But he says, you know, “Act as if.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

It really does help, but I think it’s an important message for people to know, we grapple with these same questions and that’s the special sauce that you have with students. I mean, they talk about you and your work and taking your class. I was talking with my fellow who just graduated, Gretchen Castelloe and she said, “I took her college career, I loved it.” So, what do you want them to know? At least to wrap and I feel like we could do a part two very easily (laughs). Keep that in your brain but you know what’s important for them in this moment that they’re in whether their first years and just got here.

(38:48):

Whether they’re preparing for their last academic year or not preparing they’re in it or graduate students and I know all those stages are different. So, let’s maybe think about the undergraduate student for now.

Heidi Robinson (38:59):

I love it, I love what you’re saying is that they are all different. Oh, my goodness, yes. And at the core of every student, I want them to know they are enough, they have enough. What got them here, some of that foundation, that same 18-year-old who is walking onto this campus and trying to figure out their belonging. This is not the first time they’ve done this, they did this in kindergarten too.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:22):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (39:22):

And they were enough then, they’ve got this for now. That graduating senior who was saying, “Am I enough to take this next step? Have I really done enough compared to-“

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

Or I don’t have a job yet?

Heidi Robinson (39:32):

I don’t have a job yet.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:35):

You know.

Heidi Robinson (39:35):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:35):

It’s October (laughs)

Heidi Robinson (39:35):

Yes, yes, they have it. They are enough and they don’t have to do it by themselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:38):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (39:39):

And that it is not weakness to ask for help.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:42):

No.

Heidi Robinson (39:42):

And to say I would like to have my people alongside me.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:45):

Yes, it’s a sign of strength.

Heidi Robinson (39:46):

The more that we can model that for them to say that I have times when I asked myself am I really the person who should be doing whatever they fill in the blank. Sometimes I just have to do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:57):

Absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (39:58):

Whether I am sure or not.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:00):

And then say that out loud, like I think it’s okay to call somebody and say, “I feel really nervous about this.”

Heidi Robinson (40:05):

Absolutely, absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:07):

Yeah, I got a big speech coming up in a few weeks, and I got on the phone with a friend and said, “I just want to name I’m a little overwhelmed. Can we talk about this?” So, we talk a lot about naming, just taking it from what’s in my brain and just saying it out loud, I feel overwhelmed.

Heidi Robinson (40:21):

Dr. Shea Kidd Brown, before I came to do this podcast with you, I called a beloved human and actually said, “Do I have something to say? Do I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:30):

(laughs) Are you serious?

Heidi Robinson (40:31):

Yes, today.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:32):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (40:33):

As I was walking over, I called Zachary and he said, “Why are you walking so fast?” I said, “Because I’m late.” And he said, “That’s not why you’re calling me.” And I said, “Do I have some stories to tell?”

Shea Kidd Brown (40:40):

Everyone has stories to tell.

Heidi Robinson (40:44):

We probably do.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:44):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (40:45):

But we all ask, are we enough?

Shea Kidd Brown (40:47):

We do.

Heidi Robinson (40:48):

And I ask that and I want our students to know, it is okay to ask that question and I want them to know they are.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:53):

Right, and that’s powerful first of all and I’m taking it into because I think we all have to remind ourselves. And it’s not more than enough, it’s enough. So, it’s this satisfaction, if we can just be comfortable and sit in what I call enoughness.

Heidi Robinson (41:11):

Oh, I love that, I might need to, I don’t have any tattoos but if I did enoughness might be a good one. Maybe on my wrist or something.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:17):

There’s toughness and there’s enoughness. And, uh, you know, I think that in all of our flaws and in all that it’s enough and it guides us to where we need to go. And it keeps us humble too, to, to understand, you know, I don’t have to be everything, I can just be enough. And my enough is okay, yours is okay and collectively, you know, when we think about the spirit of Pro Humanitate. That’s what can truly be life giving and life changing is if we just get comfortable with who we are. We don’t have to be everybody else.

Heidi Robinson (41:51):

No. And that comparison trap, I try to maintain an awareness that all of our students are wandering compared to this person who looks like they have it “all together.” They’re my air quotes. They look like they might be achieving perfection in a way that I have not yet to remind ourselves of the lie and not to let ourselves buy it. And I think we also have some groups of students who I fundamentally think we need to remind a little more frequently that they are enough and that their place is here.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:20):

Right, their place is here that they matter.

Heidi Robinson (42:23):

Yup.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:23):

And then we believe that they can drive. So, I think the last question for now. I wanna know, you’ve given me so much hope just in your outlook and what grounds your work and now I know what fuels the sunshine. But what are you hopeful for?

Heidi Robinson (42:43):

Feel hopeful surrounded by smart, capable students who genuinely care about making our planet, our place, our culture, our university a better place. That makes me hopeful. When I see this very potent combination of intellect and heart and value centered action, that makes me hopeful.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:08):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (43:08):

Do I think we have challenges globally, nationally, and things on our campus that we say we want things to look different? Yes. Do I feel hopeful when I see our students who care deeply about it? That makes me hopeful?

Shea Kidd Brown (43:23):

Yeah. I say often that on a lot of campuses, you can say, you can do anything you want to do, you know. And typically, you either have passion without resources, or you have resources without passion, and it feels like we have both. And on top of that just brilliant humans that-

Heidi Robinson (43:45):

They are brilliant humans.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:46):

Inhabit this place. So, I too share that we here on this campus can say we want to make a difference in the world and I believe it.

Heidi Robinson (43:56):

I do too. We do not have complacent students. And for me, that tells me, there are things to be hopeful for.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:02):

Absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (44:03):

That part for me, that brings me back here every day, every day. That is the oxygen of this place is the hope that these students, that they represent.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:12):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (44:12):

But it’s bigger than just our campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:16):

It is, I agree. That feels like a perfect place to stop. Oh, but we could go-

Heidi Robinson (44:20):

Dr. Shea, I have worn you out.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:23):

No. Well, thank you, thank you for spending time with me.

Heidi Robinson (44:24):

Oh, boy, that was fun, though.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:27):

Yes, it was fun.

Heidi Robinson (44:28):

Oh, my gosh.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:30):

Thank you.

Heidi Robinson (44:30):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:30):

 For spending time.

Heidi Robinson (44:31):

This was, as always, a treat.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:34):

Well, you’re a gift. Such a good conversation with Heidi. Isn’t she such a ray of sunshine? From family structures to career of interest to home as a place where you can take your shoes off. I feel like my cup has been filled. I encourage you to think about what she shared and how you might apply it to your life. Thank you for listening and I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. You have something to contribute to the world, I kid you not. Until next time keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (45:09):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who is a recognizable student body leader. Until then, I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.


Episode 4: Jackie Krasas

On this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with the new Dean of the College and Graduate School of the Arts & Sciences, Jackie Krasas. You’ll hear about how Dean Krasas has utilized some of her learnings in different fields over the years in education, what her ‘goofy’ is like, how her upbringing shaped who she is today and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey. It’s Dr. Shea and this is Kidd You Not! The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick and how we’ve found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:46):

I am so excited to talk to my new colleague, Jackie Krasas, Dean of the College and the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. Dean Krasas recently joined Wake Forest from Lehigh University, where she served as Deputy Provost. Her scholarship focuses on gender, race and employment inequality, work and family, sexual harassment and non-standard work. Dean Krasas received a bachelor of arts degree in social relations from Lehigh and a master’s and PhD in sociology, with a specialty in gender studies from the University of Southern California. Prior to her arrival at Wake and Lehigh, she served for 10 years as a faculty member in the Department of Labor and Employment Relations at Penn State where she also directed the masters program in industrial relations and human resources.

(01:32):

I am so excited to get to know more about her story as she enters her first fall in The Forest. So, hello, and welcome.

Jackie Krasas (01:41):

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

I’m so excited. I’m glad that you agreed to participate, and I’m looking forward to talking with you. I know that any time people ask you about an interview or podcast, you’re like, “What do I need to do? Do I need to prepare?” (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (01:53):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:55):

But today’s really just about us having conversations. We’ve had a chance to do a lot of work in a short amount of time already.

Jackie Krasas (02:02):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

But really, today is about getting to know you more and as I said as we were preparing, if you have questions along the way, you can certainly ask me. But this time is really dedicated to learning about who you are and as you enter this new tenure, getting to know our students’, faculty, staff, and I know the listeners will appreciate learning from you. And because of your leadership, we’ve got lots to do and I’m just really excited about that.

(02:27):

So, I also wanna tell you just that I’m really excited that you’re here, just on a personal level. You jumped in, it feels like, before you jumped in (laughs). You were already here, and when you said the other day how long you’ve been here, I’m like, it felt like you’ve been here forever already. You’ve already made such a difference. So, I’m excited about our opportunities to do good work together in addition to our conversation today.

(02:49):

So, are you ready to get started?

Jackie Krasas (02:50):

I am ready to get started.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Good, good. So, we know you as Dean Krasas, Dr. Krasas. A lot of times our titles precede our stories. So, it always feels natural to talk about who you were before you were Dean Krasas, or Deputy Provost Krasas (laughs), or a faculty member. And so, I’m curious if we can go further back to the beginning maybe (laughs). Um, tell us about, you know, your background, where you grew up, those kinds of things that shaped where you are today.

Jackie Krasas (03:21):

Sure. Thank you. So, how far back do we wanna go? How about 11?

Shea Kidd Brown (03:24):

Age 11? Okay.

Jackie Krasas (03:24):

We could go, we could go to 11.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

That, that works. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (03:27):

(laughs). So, um, there’s just a good story about who I am. At 11-years-old, I started tutoring, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (03:32):

… tutor other kids in math and English and all sorts of different kinds of academic things because I really loved it. And so, I think at 11, without knowing it, I knew I was a teacher.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

You were a teacher. Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (03:41):

Right? So, a teacher has always been who I am and it’s sort of through everything that I’ve done. So, I grew up in Pennsylvania-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:49):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (03:49):

… just outside of Philadelphia-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (03:50):

… and I went to Lehigh University as an undergraduate. And then when I graduated, I actually worked in business for about five years.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:57):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (03:57):

So-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:57):

What kind of business?

Jackie Krasas (03:58):

… I worked in the insurance industry-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Oh.

Jackie Krasas (04:00):

… doing a variety of jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:01):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (04:02):

Now, that’s a good motivation for graduate school. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (04:04):

And I lived in Jersey, and eventually moved to Los Angeles-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (04:08):

… and I was working in insurance in Los Angeles, and I had a variety of jobs, including human resources, including business systems analyst, you name it. And so, I think that’s a great model for the liberal arts-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:19):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (04:20):

… when s- they don’t know if they can do anything with their degree.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (04:22):

I tell them what I’ve done, and then I went back to school and got a-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:25):

Yeah. So-

Jackie Krasas (04:25):

… PhD.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:26):

So, during that process of starting in Philadelphia, going to the opposite coast, were there some of those jobs, or within insurance, that you said, “This is absolutely what I don’t wanna do.”?

Jackie Krasas (04:37):

Every single one of them was pretty dreadful, um, but they were really good experience, and I think they taught me a lot. I was supervising at a very, very young age.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (04:45):

I had to be, like, 24-years-old-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (04:46):

… and I was supervising a large group for that age, like, 20 people-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (04:50):

… and folks who were my parents’ age. And then I worked at a very different kind of insurance company. It was new at the time. It was a mental health HMO.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

Oh.

Jackie Krasas (04:59):

And so, this was, like, 1989, ’90, somewhere around there.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:03):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (05:04):

And I joined that organization because I was interested in its mission-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (05:08):

… which was great. The organization was not a great place to work-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (05:11):

… so I moved on from that after-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:12):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (05:12):

… about a year. But I think this whole time, I knew I had wanted to go back to graduate school, but I really felt I needed something else in between-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (05:19):

… just to go see what’s out there-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:20):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (05:20):

… and try some things. And so, I’m really glad I did that.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

Yeah, I totally relate. I did a similar thing.

Jackie Krasas (05:25):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

I had a degree in liberal arts, communication studies and went into sales, so we’ve not talked about that, that-

Jackie Krasas (05:32):

Oh, I want to know how sales was-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

So, right. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (05:34):

… ’cause I avoided sales like the plague. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:37):

It was m- much like how you described it. I learned a lot, but I had these goals that really didn’t connect to a passion-

Jackie Krasas (05:42):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

… or a, a vision of my life. It just felt very transactional. But that was critical to figuring out who I wanted to be. So, it sounds like I had that gap between, then I went to grad school and just needed that clarity, um-

Jackie Krasas (05:54):

Yep.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

… because sometimes I think students today are very, like, “What’s next? What’s next? What’s next?” And what’s next is often going, they hope, right into what they’re gonna do for the rest of their lives, and it’s often just the next step, which leads to the next step.

Jackie Krasas (06:08):

It’s so interesting, and one of the really great things in my two plus a little bit months here has been-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (06:14):

… talking to my Board of Visitors who have a range of jobs, a range of experiences and they really articulate the liberal arts ethos really, really well.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:22):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (06:23):

And lots of them started off in, you know, English or history or gender studies or something else, or art, or-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (06:30):

… you name it. Their paths have been winding.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:32):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (06:32):

And this is always what I wanna tell students that, “Your path is gonna be winding-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:36):

Absolutely.

Jackie Krasas (06:36):

… and sure, it’s unsettling not to see what you’re gonna, quote unquote, be when you grow up-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (06:41):

… but just to try to ease into it and enjoy-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:43):

Exactly.

Jackie Krasas (06:43):

… whatever the next thing is,” and-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:45):

And it takes the pressure off. Even though goals that were in, I think if you lean into curiosity and good cliches, grow where you’re planted, but that’s true, or bloom-

Jackie Krasas (06:55):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

… where you’re planted, that’s just helping us all to slow down (laughs) and stop thinking so much about what’s next and be in the right now I think is, is really important.

(07:03):

So, I wanna dig a little bit more into just childhood. So, tell me about your family. Siblings? Only child? Uh, okay.

Jackie Krasas (07:11):

So, um, I’m the oldest.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:13):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (07:13):

I have one sister. She’s four years younger. I’m a half inch taller than her-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:19):

… so that is a-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

So, I’m sure you’ve had those bragging rights.

Jackie Krasas (07:20):

We have those, yep, all the time. She insists she’s 5’02, but she’s not.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:23):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:24):

Um, so, I’m the older sister and the taller sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:27):

There’s a lot to be learned from birth order, so that’s… (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:30):

Yeah. And the birth order (laughs), birth order is a whole interesting on its own.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:32):

Yeah. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:32):

So, we moved to a house that was basically in the woods when I was eight.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (07:37):

And so, I ended up spending so much time in the woods-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Outside.

Jackie Krasas (07:39):

… so I just love to be outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (07:41):

I love nature and I would just get up in the morning and head out, and eventually I would find my way home.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:48):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (07:48):

I don’t know how we did all of that without a cellphone.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:50):

Right?

Jackie Krasas (07:51):

But we did. And so, I was wandering out in the woods (laughs), and I would, you know, just look and see everything. I just found it really peaceful. I think that is a through line to now-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:58):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (07:58):

… because if you look at my backyard, it’s woods.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (08:01):

I find that is my really happy place-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (08:02):

… is to sit outside in nature and-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

I love that.

Jackie Krasas (08:04):

… hear birds and just kind of observe.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Just be.

Jackie Krasas (08:06):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

Yeah. It’s such a lost art. I feel like (laughs), you know, because of… Technology, of course, is great, but there are… I think our kids are growing up in a very different time in that they’ve got so many stimulants. So, I love hearing about that and just how that connects to so many things in life now.

Jackie Krasas (08:24):

Yeah. It’s almost never quiet.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:26):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (08:26):

I mean, that describes these jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:27):

If you’re listening. Yeah. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (08:29):

That describes these jobs, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (08:30):

… but truly, I think for kids growing up, it’s… You need effort to have quiet for them-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:36):

That’s so true.

Jackie Krasas (08:36):

… and there’s something very nice about quiet-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (08:39):

… where you can just listen to trees moving, to birds, and I think-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:43):

Well, and I know you garden.

Jackie Krasas (08:44):

I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

So, what have you found living here versus in Pennsylvania in terms of gardening and difference and similarities? (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (08:53):

Like (laughs), you have to be on top of the watering.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

Yes.

Jackie Krasas (08:55):

I mean, this summer has been a little brutal. It’s either watering a lot, flooding or, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:59):

Yeah, we have these big chunks of rain or drought.

Jackie Krasas (09:00):

Big chunks of rain, right. And then I found things have grown really, really well here and I’ve never really been able to have fall crops.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (09:08):

So, we’re gonna try that this year-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

Oh, good.

Jackie Krasas (09:10):

… because fall extends much longer here.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:12):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (09:13):

So, I’m excited.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:13):

Well, and I know you’re settling in right now, but are you able to find time for fun? (laughs). Or is being still fun for you when you have those rare moments?

Jackie Krasas (09:22):

It depends on what you think fun is. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Well, what do you think fun is?

Jackie Krasas (09:25):

… we’ve done (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

That’s the, that’s the important answer. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (09:28):

(laughs). You know, we take a lot of walks and just get to know the neighborhood a little bit. I go to the farmer’s market every Saturday morning and just enjoy-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Oh, which one?

Jackie Krasas (09:34):

Cobblestone.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:35):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (09:35):

So, I really enjoy it there.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:36):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (09:36):

There’s a-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:36):

I haven’t been there yet.

Jackie Krasas (09:37):

… a flower stand that I really, really like and a couple of, you know, people who have vegetables that I like or there’s a person-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (09:43):

… who makes pies and hummus and th- they’ll-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:46):

Nice.

Jackie Krasas (09:47):

You should go-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:48):

I need to check that out.

Jackie Krasas (09:48):

… if you haven’t gone. And we’ve done a lot of things around the house, which have been kind of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:51):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (09:51):

Painting and-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:53):

Just making it your home. Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (09:54):

… flowers and all that stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:56):

Yeah. That’s really fun. So, I broke up our, you know, talking about the liberal arts education and that importance ’cause I really wanted to hear a little bit more about your background, and that’s really helpful. Growing up in the woods and being in the forest is, uh (laughs)… We want people to get lost here and, and get engaged. So, you talked about tutoring being critical, you know, at 11. What subject was that?

Jackie Krasas (10:18):

Oh, I did math-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (10:19):

… I did English. I sort of… Whatever.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:21):

Whatever came to mind.

Jackie Krasas (10:22):

Whatever, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:24):

Yes. Okay. So, were there people throughout your journey, so whether that was undergrad at Lehigh or further out into your graduate work, or even into your profession… Have there been people specifically who’ve influenced you throughout your life? And who are they? What have you learned from there?

Jackie Krasas (10:38):

Yeah, I would say the person who influenced me most was my grandmother.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (10:42):

She didn’t live very far from us. It was probably 10 minutes away until she got older and then moved closer, but she was there every morning and she was sort of, you know, my second mom and my best friend.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

Mm. I love that.

Jackie Krasas (10:55):

And so, she was a really, really good listener. If you had a bad day, she wouldn’t sort of pat you on the head and say, “Aw.” She would get there, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (11:03):

… she would also kind of ask you a lot of questions. She had a lot of good sayings, and so one of the things that sticks in my head, which apparently I’ve picked up and told my own daughter is-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:13):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (11:13):

… that only toads get embarrassed.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:15):

Oh. Say more.

Jackie Krasas (11:15):

I’m not sure I ever really knew what that meant-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (11:19):

… but if I was talking about being embarrassed, it’s her way of saying, “Hold your head up high and-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:22):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (11:23):

… and don’t be embarrassed, and whatever you’ve done is okay.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:26):

Yeah. Well, I don’t think I’ve shared about my grandmother, so I love that we have that in common. My grandmother is also really special to me and she lived further away. She was about an hour and a half away, which was not far, but she wasn’t part of our day to day, at least in person. But she was also one of those who had pearls of wisdom and I think just came up in a different time. My grandmother was very involved in the civil rights movement, and so her, what we might say, grit today or resilience and there’s… You and I both problematize both of those words (laughs) to some degree-

Jackie Krasas (11:59):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:59):

… because it’s based on background and experience. But having said all of that, she encouraged and instilled that same self-respect and expecting to make mistakes and learning from them and, and being proud of who you are.

Jackie Krasas (12:12):

That’s interesting. One of the things I think influenced my grandmother the most was, uh, the Great Depression.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:18):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (12:19):

And so, she was… I’m trying to think of how old she would have been. Just becoming an adult right-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (12:23):

… in the Great Depression.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:24):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (12:24):

So, coming into her own and thinking about marriage and kids and-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (12:29):

… it was a really difficult time. So, that was a presence in our house.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:31):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (12:32):

We heard a lot about that. And the other thing that was a presence in our house, um, I had a great-grandmother who I loved dearly-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:38):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (12:38):

… who barely spoke any English. She spoke Armenian.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:41):

Oh, wow.

Jackie Krasas (12:42):

And so, they would talk about the, quote unquote, old country. It was before the genocide, but they fled as things were not doing so well.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (12:49):

And so, my Nanny, as I called her-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:51):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (12:52):

… was just a- another great force and it was a funny story, I always thought my Nanny was really religious-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:59):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (12:59):

… because she would always read the Bible.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:03):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (13:03):

And it wasn’t till I was in my 30s that I realized that was the only book she had written in Armenian.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Oh, wow.

Jackie Krasas (13:09):

So, she would read it-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:09):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (13:09):

… over and over again. Uh, like, today, I’m sure you could get books in Armenian-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Whatever you… Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (13:13):

… without a problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Wow.

Jackie Krasas (13:17):

But in those days, that’s what she had.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Things we take for granted now.

Jackie Krasas (13:17):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Well, and what a great lineage to have-

Jackie Krasas (13:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:20):

… your great-grandmother, you know, to have memories of your great-grandmother and your grandmother. Wow, that’s incredible. So, it sounds like both of them really influenced you and how you think about leadership. Did that influence your interest in women and gender studies? (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (13:34):

No, actually, it didn’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:35):

Oh.

Jackie Krasas (13:35):

I went to an all-girls high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:36):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (13:37):

And I think that had a little bit to do with it, but really-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (13:41):

… I don’t actually think it was until I went to work in the industry that I-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (13:46):

… started to really observe. So, when I was at Lehigh University, yes, I observed it was one quarter women at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:53):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (13:53):

I would say, too, that I was in chemical engineering, so there were really very few-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:57):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (13:58):

… women in that, and I noticed that a little bit. I guess I didn’t think too hard about it.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:02):

Sure. I don’t wanna read into this. When something’s part of your lived experience, you don’t always notice it.

Jackie Krasas (14:07):

Sure. Well, it’s like when we teach sociology-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:08):

Right. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (14:09):

… we always tell the students, you know, it’s like being a fish in a fishbowl.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:12):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (14:12):

Fish may not-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:12):

May not say it’s water.

Jackie Krasas (14:13):

… observe the water, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:14):

Yeah. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (14:14):

You know, “It’s wet today.” So, no, you’re probably very right about that. And then when I went to work in industry, I noticed a lot of things and I tend to be observant, which is a good thing and not surprising that I came out as a sociologist who, you know, studies the world, looks around and-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (14:27):

… and wants to make sense of it.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

Yeah. So, what were some of those things you noticed?

Jackie Krasas (14:31):

Well, I can tell you one direct story. This was when I was a business systems analyst in, actually, a life insurance company, and I had a boss who was very old-fashioned.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (14:41):

He was a lovely man, and we would tease him about his Nebraska football team. But I had a big cubical in the back that was closed off, and there had been a series of weeks where people would come back and think I was his secretary and, now, I wasn’t anywhere near him (laughs). And so, one day I made a mention to him and I said, “Hey, Ed. All these people think I’m your secretary. You better do some publicity and tell them I’m not.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:01):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (15:03):

And he said, uh, “Well, stop looking like my secretary.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:05):

Whoa.

Jackie Krasas (15:07):

And I’m sure I had something smart aleck to say back to him.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:09):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (15:09):

But that was kind of one of those moments, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:12):

Yeah, that’s a, that’s a salient moment, for sure.

Jackie Krasas (15:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:14):

And did you respond in that moment or did you walk away, or…

Jackie Krasas (15:18):

I’m sure I just turned around and rolled my eyes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:20):

Yeah. And you probably had  “Marble Jar Moments” in a different context, but these small things that kind of add up to a big thing. So, I wonder, were there those kinds of moments that added up to, “Okay. I’m gonna seriously engage in this work in my career, in my writing, in my scholarship.”?

Jackie Krasas (15:36):

Yeah. I think a, a lot of little moments in the different-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:38):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (15:39):

… jobs that I had-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:40):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (15:40):

… in the, in the different kinds of things that I saw going on. I moved to Los Angeles when I was 23 and, a great place to be a sociologist. So, from Pennsylvania-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:48):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (15:49):

… to Los Angeles, and I loved it. You would see all kinds of different things that you wouldn’t see in suburban Philadelphia.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:57):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (15:57):

And, you know, it was just a magical place to live at the time in many, many ways, and then horrific as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:03):

Mm-hmm. While you were in California, was there a moment in time when you said, “Okay. I’ve learned what I need to learn and now it’s time to study that more intently.”?

Jackie Krasas (16:12):

My last job was working in insurance as a business systems analyst-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:16):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (16:16):

… and one thing that happened, we were working for a company, it was the junk-bond era and the IRS, or, or FBI, or I don’t remember who it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:25):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (16:25):

… but people with badges came in-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:26):

Some e- big entity. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (16:28):

… came with their badges and took away the CEO and put his BMW up on a, a lift and, and towed that away. And so, we were basically locked down from any work-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

Hm.

Jackie Krasas (16:39):

… for several months on end, and I think that being not able to do my job, but having to-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:42):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (16:42):

… come to work-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:43):

You had a lot of thinking time.

Jackie Krasas (16:44):

… led to a lot of thinking-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (16:45):

… and I thought, “Well, this is probably a good time for me to go back to school.” So, I put my applications in that fall-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (16:54):

… um, and just waited to see-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (16:54):

… you know? And I wanted to stay in Southern California. I really loved it there. So, I ended up going to USC. I visited them and I had just the best visit and talking with the faculty, they were so energized and interesting and-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (17:05):

… before meeting them, it hadn’t been my first choice.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:07):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (17:07):

And looking back, it’s one of the best experiences I’ve had. I lo- I know grad school’s hard and I know it’s hard in lots of ways for people where some folks don’t feel supported and for some people-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (17:17):

… it’s traumatizing, I was very fortunate and I had a really fantastic, very supportive graduate school experience. I’m still friends with a lot of those-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:25):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (17:26):

My cohort.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:26):

Yeah. And grad school, just as an aside (laughs), I- I’m thinking back to my experience, too, of that communication that you form, the, the people you’re sitting in class with. I was in a cohort, so every class was with the same group of people except for two in our whole two-year program, and so I think back to faculty. And PhD was a little more alone (laughs) in that we’re kind of on our paths there, but that community is really critical.

(17:50):

And I just wanna say, I love that you had so much time in industry because I just wonder, this is not something I know, but I wonder if the perception of faculty in their route to the academy has to be: being an undergrad, going to grad school (laughs), getting a PhD. Because I think also, in addition to that expectation, that, again, feel free to tell me if I’m wrong about that, as women, it also feels like this clock of… Particularly if you have determined you want a tenure track position and to stay in the academy, feels like you gotta get ready quickly so that you can write and publish and develop. Just love the time and attention that you really took to discover. Kind of thinking back to the woods (laughs), you know? It sounds like from your, your storytelling that you weren’t like, “I’m gonna do this and then I’m gonna do that, then I’m gonna do…” You just really sat in where you were.

Jackie Krasas (18:43):

Yeah. I think that there were things that I knew. So, for instance, right out of college, I was accepted to a PhD program-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (18:51):

… and I decided not to do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (18:53):

I wanted to do some other things. I needed a break from school.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:55):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (18:56):

And I think a lot of students feel that. My own daughter did that, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:59):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (18:59):

She took a few years off before going back to school, which I think is great and I recommend. I think s- a lot of students are afraid to take time off.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:06):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (19:07):

And I think there’s particular pressure these days more than then to sort of march forward and just go beeline to that thing that you’re supposed to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:14):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:15):

And for whatever reason, I didn’t feel that pressure.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:18):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (19:19):

And maybe, you know, being in Los Angeles might have had something to do with it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:21):

Sure. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (19:21):

You’d go to the beach and-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:22):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:23):

… you know, you would do other things. And so, you were just sort of busy experiencing life.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:28):

Living life, yeah.

Jackie Krasas (19:29):

Yeah, experiencing life in this place that was so very different from where you grew up. One of the things that I, that I worked very hard on as Deputy Provost, it was for faculty affairs, and even in my other roles at Lehigh, was looking at women in STEM in particular-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (19:43):

… but women faculty, and all of the things happened at the same time, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (19:47):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:47):

Just your career trajectory. And so, there is, I think, a push for people, especially folks who wanna have kids, to sort of match straight through-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:56):

… so you can get the kids in and get all of it in-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (19:59):

… before your mother comes and lives with you, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (20:00):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:01):

So, I actually ended up not having all of that happen at the same time, but a lot of us are the sandwich generation-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:06):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (20:07):

… and I think that has an impact as well. You sort of can’t predict what’s going down the pike at you.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:11):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (20:12):

But you know that that time of life is when a lot of big things kind of happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:16):

So, you mentioned Cecilia a little bit, your daughter. So, when did that happen for you and how did you decide it was the right time and-

Jackie Krasas (20:25):

I think I thought less hard about some things at that age.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (20:29):

I’ve always been a bit of an over-thinker, and I’m a planner. But that was not something I thought too hard about.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (20:35):

But basically, I started my first tenure track job at Penn State and I had her the day after I handed my exams in in May.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:42):

Wow. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:43):

So (laughs), a lot of-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:44):

You timed that really well. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:45):

I did. She was a very good kid. She waited right until I handed my exams in. It’s funny, it’s a college town, state college-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (20:50):

… and we had a lot of her little friends who all had May and June and July birthdays-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:55):

Aw. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:55):

… so pe- people kind of timing-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

Yeah, faculty members.

Jackie Krasas (20:57):

Ti- Faculty trying to time the kids-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (20:58):

… for the summertime.-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (21:00):

… which was always funny. It was very crowded with birthdays-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:02):

… around those times. The weird thing was most of my time there, labor studies, industrial relations, employment relations, it changed names a bunch of time-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:09):

… I was always either the only woman or one of two, and they had also not tenured anybody in about 15 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:18):

Wow.

Jackie Krasas (21:18):

So, there was also a big age gap.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:20):

Right. Gap.

Jackie Krasas (21:21):

So, it wasn’t a bad experience, but it wasn’t one where I felt very connected-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:26):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (21:26):

… to the folks there.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:27):

And it was a very large place. And also, that helped you not feel connected. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:32):

You have to work a little bit harder.

Jackie Krasas (21:34):

You do. And then even up until right before I was mo- moving to Lehigh, I was still meeting people who… “Wow, your research is possibly connected to mine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:43):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (21:43):

“How do I not even know who you are?”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:44):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:45):

And so, I think in the 10 years that I was there, one of the things that I learned was that I loved to teach, so we’re back to the teacher thing again.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:53):

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:53):

And then, you know, Penn State’s a big R1, and I do love-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:55):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (21:55):

… my research. There’s something about the teaching that was very-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:58):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (21:58):

… sort of nourishing.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:59):

The connection that happens.

Jackie Krasas (22:00):

Yeah. And that wasn’t the culture there at all.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:04):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (22:04):

And so, when the job became available at Lehigh, I became interested in it and my attitude is always, “Let’s go see, see what happens. What’s the worst thing that happe-… They offered me a job-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:18):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (22:18):

… and then I have to figure out if I want to take it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:18):

All the re-… Yes.

Jackie Krasas (22:19):

Right? So, I did and they offered me the job and I went there and I think that was when I began to articulate to myself the importance of the kind of teacher/scholar model that we have here.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (22:27):

Right? So, to me, that’s deeply personal-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:30):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (22:31):

… about what I found engaging as a faculty member and what I think helps students flourish.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:37):

Yeah. I’m glad that you segued us there. That’s something so salient to Wake Forest, and when it was announced that you were the new Dean and I was really excited I was on the search committee and, um, was fortunate to meet you early in, in your process and interactions at Wake, but you said, “What especially drew me in to Wake Forest is the devotion to the teacher/scholar model, the strong liberal arts foundation, and, of course, the lived practice of Pro Humanitate.”

(23:01):

So, talk more about what that means to you. That’s a term we use a lot here, and I would love, as you begin this tenure and embrace your role as Dean of the College and Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, I would to know that as a colleague and also, I think, listeners would be curious to understand what that means for you.

Jackie Krasas (23:21):

I’ll start with Pro Humanitate, because what struck me from the interview process, even, was that everyone said, “Pro Humanitate.” It’s in the water-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:29):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:30):

… and it’s in the air and I would challenge any other campus to ask their students and faculty-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:35):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:36):

… even, “What is the motto?”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:38):

And I think you wouldn’t have a lot of folks who-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:39):

Yeah. That struck me, too, as a new person.

Jackie Krasas (23:42):

Truly. Well, we met early on-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:44):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:44):

… and I remember having a nice breakfast with you-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:46):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (23:47):

… and we talked a lot about that kind of stuff. And I think in the ways that I engaged with people during the process, it was very genuine. You know, I grew up doing a lot of service in middle school, high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:01):

I think my education in my family, a lot of it was about giving and caring for others-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:08):

… in somewhat a concrete way-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:09):

… but also in sort of abstract ways of thinking-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:11):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (24:12):

… of the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:13):

Right. Putting others before self.

Jackie Krasas (24:15):

Yeah. And not surprising that I went into sociology, which is you’re thinking, “How do we made the world-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (24:21):

… a better place?”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (24:22):

“How do we understand it and understand what the problems and social problems and issues are?” And then sort of look for solutions to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

Sure. Right.

Jackie Krasas (24:29):

And so, I think that just all really connects for me-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:33):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:33):

… into Pro Humanitate.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:34):

Completely agree and also having done a lot of service throughout my life and coming from, most recently from the University of Tennessee where servant leadership is really central there, just reading that, it just lifted off the page for me. It felt-

Jackie Krasas (24:47):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:47):

… very much like a values alignment. And not just words we say. Like, we can see it-

Jackie Krasas (24:51):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:52):

… in action. It’s abstract, which is good in that we all can make meaning of it for our lives. But there’s also some connectivity and we know when it exists-… Sometimes hard to articulate, but we can all recognize it when we see it.

Jackie Krasas (25:06):

Sure. I think servant leadership is the good phrase that links it in.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:10):

You know, it was in my application.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:12):

But it’s truly where I felt… And I think directing a gender studies program for 10 years is exactly the right place to hone those sorts of skills because we’re very collaborative, we’re mutually supportive. Doesn’t mean we don’t have issues, but handle them in ways that are not hierarchical.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:28):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (25:29):

And so, at the end of the day, a Dean’s a hierarchical position.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:33):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:33):

But I think you can do jobs like the jobs we have in ways that have a non-hierarchical attitude-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:39):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (25:40):

… that you recognize your colleagues’ expertise-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:42):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:44):

… everybody’s expertise. So I don’t mean just your… Well, I… For me, my faculty colleagues, but the staff I work with, I have just lucked out in terms of… And so, I respect their expertise.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:52):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (25:53):

And I wanna make sure that they feel empowered to tell me if they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:57):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:57):

… disagreeing with a particular idea I had or a perspective I had, which, you know, so many years into my career as an academic, coming up on almost 30 years, the word Dean doesn’t feel as heavy as it did when you started. And so, I think it’s easy to forget-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (26:15):

… the weight of that word.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (26:18):

And so, the importance of encouraging people to know you’re there for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:21):

Yeah. So, how do you do that? What does that look like for you?

Jackie Krasas (26:24):

I think we laugh a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

Yeah, that’s important. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (26:26):

You know, and I think the other thing is I’m just me, and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (26:29):

… I’m goofy, I’m silly, I make terrible jokes-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (26:32):

… laugh at myself and then I always have a saying, “Laugh or cry, pick one.” My choice is to laugh and to lighten things up because we do hard and difficult and sometimes heavy work.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:42):

Absolutely.

Jackie Krasas (26:43):

And I think you don’t get through that… And so, my goal is to help everyone around me come through the hard work-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:49):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (26:49):

… and feel good about what they’re doing and feel appreciated.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (26:52):

Because truly, I’ve only been here two and a half months, I literally couldn’t do anything without them.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:55):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (26:56):

But that’s generally how I feel is the folks who work with me, who don’t have the title-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (27:00):

… are just incredibly important to the institution and to my own success, which is-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:05):

Mm.hmm.

Jackie Krasas (27:05):

… about bringing whatever group of people I’m connected to, bringing their success.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:10):

Yeah. Truly, their success is our success and the other way around, and so often we unintentionally perpetuate what leadership even is. And we have to have titles as a way to organize things-

Jackie Krasas (27:20):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:21):

… and (laughs), and people and structures and systems, particularly complex organizations, but that creating proximity, even, you know, the conversation we’re having, that’s the point, you know, is for people to understand that-

Jackie Krasas (27:32):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:32):

… you’re a whole human, you have to buy groceries (laughs), you get to have downtime. Bu- It may be limited, but there are things-

Jackie Krasas (27:39):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

… that you wanna do and it does, I think, make the work that we do lighter and even on those heavy days, you know you’re not by yourself. I describe what you described as hard work and heart work, so this notion that we’re going non-stop. I mean, it’s all the time. Even in the summers, you know, our pace changes, but it’s still full. I say full, not busy, ’cause I think-

Jackie Krasas (28:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:00):

… full days really describe what we’re doing. We’re not just meeting to meeting to meet, but to have full days and I agree that it’s teamwork. And when you have to make a hard decision, or you have to make a decision that, you know, is really exciting and life changing, you’ve got people around you, and I think it’s probably safe to safe that’s why we both chose a career that celebrates that and that allows for that, and that we could potentially be in these positions to continue to build upon that teamwork and culture that others built before us, which is also exciting.

Jackie Krasas (28:32):

I think that’s true. I think what I enjoy about jobs like this is the ability to, as I say, push on the institution a little bit-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (28:40):

… and ge- move forward. What do we envision for the institution? I mean, I have my own thoughts about wh-… I think would be good directions. We’re working on implementation of Strategic Framework at the moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (28:50):

What does that look like? And I think, you know, the idea of being… I know President Wente says, “Catalyst for good,” all the time-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (28:58):

… but catalyst for the process.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (29:00):

And so, I think in a lot of ways, these jobs-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:01):

I love that.

Jackie Krasas (29:02):

… we are of-… The catalyst for moving the institution…

Shea Kidd Brown (29:04):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (29:05):

… forward.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (29:06):

Higher education is weird ’cause universities are simultaneously very hierarchical-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:10):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (29:10):

… and also very flat.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:12):

Mm. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (29:12):

And so (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:13):

That’s true.

Jackie Krasas (29:14):

… they’re strange organizations to work in.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:15):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (29:17):

So, I think being in the position to help move the mission forward and help other folks get to what they’ve envisioned or have the institution move in a way that is-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:25):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (29:25):

… satisfying is a really special part of these jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:28):

Yeah. I’m curious in both what you have observed in this place, and we’ve talked about Pro Humanitate, but also knowing that… And then that you bring a whole wealth of experience and knowledge, what are some of those first things that you’re hoping to accomplish or things that are on your mind as you both have this blueprint of a strategic framework, but also are learning your college and graduate school?

Jackie Krasas (29:56):

Well, a couple of things. So, there’s a lot that we do really, really well.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:59):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (30:00):

We do interdisciplinary work really, really well. We do experiential learning really, really well. And what I’ve observed at Wake Forest is we seem really proud of who we are and we wanna be who we are-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (30:13):

… and the best version of who we are. From my part, I think we can tell our story better-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:17):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (30:17):

… especially so that students can tell our story. I want them to understand the value of the education that they’re getting-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:24):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (30:24):

… and I’m not sure it sinks in for most people-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Always.

Jackie Krasas (30:25):

… until later in in their life.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:26):

Right. Of course.

Jackie Krasas (30:28):

But I’d like to give them the tools through as they see us move forward, it becomes more concrete to them-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (30:34):

… and they have the language to say, about their liberal arts education-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:37):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (30:38):

… what it means to them, and what it enables them to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s powerful.

Jackie Krasas (30:42):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:42):

It’s transformative. When I first arrived, I remember talking with an engineering professor and the ability to hear, and I’m no engineer, clearly (laughs), but to hear the connections around STEM, but the why. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (30:57):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:59):

So, it was, “We teach engineering, but we’re talking about real world problems that engineers can solve.” And that is a microcosm of the liberal arts education is the why. So, continuing to convey to students, that’s what makes us unique, and that’s what makes us different, and that’s what they need, too, to connect. So, if I’m in a class, and I’m taking physics and I can see how that has a connection to this bigger picture of earning this degree that will then connect to a real world problem, then I’m gonna be much more motivated in that class than I might be otherwise, and that’s really powerful.

Jackie Krasas (31:37):

It is. And I think that our students today especially wanna find that connection, the – 

Shea Kidd Brown (31:41):

Right. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (31:42):

… “Why am I doing this?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (31:43):

And I think it’s not true of every engineering program.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:45):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (31:46):

I think we in particular do it really well. I had a chance to spend some time with the faculty over there-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:51):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (31:51):

… and it’s exactly the story.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:53):

Yeah. It’s incredible. And I have a, a special interest. My 14-year-old is really interested in engineering and, of course, right now it’s a, it’s a whole wide world, and it needs to be, but I just keeping thinking about that in the back of my mind of how our engineers are gonna be prepared in a different way than others simply because of that connection to-

Jackie Krasas (32:11):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:11):

… to meaning and purpose.

Jackie Krasas (32:12):

Yeah. What draws him?

Shea Kidd Brown (32:14):

Well, he is the classic LEGO kid. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (32:16):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

So, he has been into LEGO since he was five or six and most recently, we were in Chicago and that was where he wanted to go, to the LEGO store and he found the Pyramid of Giza, which is 1,400 pieces and-

Jackie Krasas (32:31):

Oh my goodness. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (32:31):

… uh, 18-year-old and up and he’s like, “This is what I want.” And I was like, “Okay.” It was the biggest yellow bag he’d ever gotten, so he was really excited. And we got home and he said, “I’m gonna build this in three or four hours.” And I was like-

Jackie Krasas (32:41):

Oh my goodness.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:42):

… in my brain, “That’s sweet. That’s cute,” in my brain.

Jackie Krasas (32:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

I didn’t say it out loud. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (32:46):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (32:47):

I thought, you know, he’s gonna get into it and it’s gonna be a lot harder, and that’s fine. That’s part of the learning process. And the next day, we were still in the summer-

Jackie Krasas (32:55):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:55):

… he texted and said, “I’m finished. Headed to the pool,” and it took him four hours. And so, he loves this idea of building things-

Jackie Krasas (33:00):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

… and doesn’t do a lot of sets anymore. He kind of creates his own thing. But I would think, based on what I’ve watched, mechanical or, uh, even industrial and he recently met an architect, so I think that whole, like, buildings and-

Jackie Krasas (33:16):

Civil, maybe. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Civil. Yeah. But just encouraging him to be curious.

Jackie Krasas (33:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:21):

And right now, he said he wants to be an engineer. He’s said that since he was probably seven or eight. And the same thing you said earlier, just because he said he always wanted to do it, I don’t know that that’s necessarily what he h- will do.

Jackie Krasas (33:32):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:33):

I think it’s important to go to college to learn (laughs) and to be curious, not to just get a degree, and that’s what we’re about, I think, here at Wake.

Jackie Krasas (33:41):

Yeah. That’s great. I mean, so place will model that for him and-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:44):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (33:45):

… our kids are lucky because they get to spend, you know, their childhoods on-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:48):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (33:48):

… college campuses-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (33:49):

… which I think is a unique-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:52):

Oh, totally.

Jackie Krasas (33:52):

… view and certainly shaped, for my daughter, how she approached college, I think.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (33:55):

And so, when I think of that… This is a huge segue. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (33:59):

When I think of that, I think of our students and what I want them to know-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:01):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:01):

… which is, “Know your faculty.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Yes.

Jackie Krasas (34:03):

So, to my daughter, faculty were just mom’s friends-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:07):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (34:07):

… and she knew all these people who were Professor This and Professor That, and they were sort of, you know… Maybe were not normal people, but normal people.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:12):

(laughs). You are.

Jackie Krasas (34:12):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:13):

Normal’s a setting on a drier, that’s it.

Jackie Krasas (34:14):

(laughs). Normal is a setting on the drier, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:17):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (34:17):

And so, I want that for all of our students. I think… Well, when you think of first gen students especially, they didn’t spend their childhoods floating in pools of professors.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:27):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (34:27):

It was… This is a new kind of person for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:29):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (34:29):

And I think for most students, a professor is a new-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:32):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:32):

… mysterious-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:33):

Intimidating.

Jackie Krasas (34:34):

… thing. Intimidating.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:36):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:36):

And so, I would always tell s- my advisees, “Just go to your professor’s office hours.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:40):

Yes.

Jackie Krasas (34:40):

“Ask if they have pets and anything.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (34:42):

“Just see them.” ‘Cause most of the time, we’re lonely in office hours. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:46):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

You want people to come. You’ve devoted that time-

Jackie Krasas (34:49):

You want people to come. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

… for people to come.

Jackie Krasas (34:50):

So, I think we do a lot of things here that are-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:51):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:51):

… really in line with that, connecting the students, um, with faculty, and we say hi touch-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (34:58):

… all the time, but it’s connection, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (34:59):

It is.

Jackie Krasas (34:59):

It’s making those little connections.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:01):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (35:01):

And then when you are struggling or when you’re having other kinds of issues going on, then I think those connections are already there for the students to-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:07):

Yes, they’re so palpable.

Jackie Krasas (35:08):

… to trust their faculty that-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:10):

Yeah. And our faculty want those relationships.

Jackie Krasas (35:13):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:14):

You know, a student was talking to me, a prospective student, and they were asking me… They were looking at a very large state school flagship in another state and Wake and kind of asked me to describe the differen-… Both worked in very large state institutions, and I work in student affairs as a profession, but I believe in, as you know, the campus-

Jackie Krasas (35:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:32):

… is a classroom, and I very much connect with the unique relationships that faculty can gain with students, and I said, “I think a very big difference is the relationship that you’ll have with faculty, that all of our classes are taught by faculty and they want to have that relationship and they wanna engage through scholarship and through research and through global studies, and just through life.” I mean, I was at Smith’s the other day, our newly branded coffee shop on campus (laughs), and I’m watching students walk in with their professors and have coffee, and that’s special. And, again, to your point earlier, students don’t necessarily know it’s special ’cause it’s Wake Forest-

Jackie Krasas (36:11):

Right. It’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:11):

… (laughs) and that’s where they’ve chosen to go to college, but it’s, undergraduate students particularly, it’s just in the water. It’s really cool.

Jackie Krasas (36:18):

It is. Uh, while I firmly believe one can get a really great education anywhere, there’s a different quality to it and I sort of jokingly say about Wake Forest that students would have to work really hard to not have that connection with the faculty. I think it’s in everything that we do here.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:34):

It is.

Jackie Krasas (36:35):

So, I think you can have good experiences elsewhere, but it’s hard for students to find those, I think, sometimes at a much larger institution-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:41):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (36:43):

… where faculty are not rewarded or encouraged to-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:46):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (36:46):

… focus on their teaching. And so, I also think that for us, it’s a real recruiting advantage for faculty.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (36:50):

That was my experience at Lehigh interviewing through faculty affairs-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:54):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (36:54):

… getting to know the new faculty and they’re saying, “No, this teacher/scholar model is really what attracted me here ’cause I love my research-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (37:02):

… I can do real research here-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:03):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (37:04):

… but I can also be valued for my teaching-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:06):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (37:06):

… which gives me another kind of reward or joy in s-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:08):

Absolutely.

Jackie Krasas (37:09):

… in coming to work.” So, I think that’s an advantage for us, for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:13):

I… Well, I know we could talk probably all day. So, I know as our time wraps up, uh, just a couple more things I wanted to ask you. One is, you’re new to Wake, so you’re only new once (laughs), and this is a really magical time, so I hope that you’ll take it all in and just enjoy it, because I still feel new, but I know that that newness for the campus is wearing off a little bit. And so, what do you want… This goes back to the, “We are humans.”. So, what do you want people to know about you that they may not know otherwise, that they may not read in a bio or they may not experience during a formal address as they begin to get to know you as Dean Krasas?

Jackie Krasas (37:52):

So, often, I think for the most part, unless you’re in our little office suite there, you don’t get to see goofy me.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:57):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (37:58):

And so, I want folks to know I have a goofy side, which I don’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:00):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (38:01):

… often let out-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:01):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (38:01):

… outside of that office-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:02):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (38:03):

… but it’s there.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (38:04):

And I love especially goofy movies and-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:06):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (