Kidd You Not!

SEASON TWO

Welcome to the podcast hosted by Wake Forest University’s Vice President of Campus Life, Dr. Shea Kidd Brown. The purpose of this podcast is to connect you, the audience, to our shared humanity. Oftentimes, we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. On this podcast, we will discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and, yes, our humanity.

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*Kidd You Not is brought to you by Wake Forest student Chase Clark (’26) and supported by the Division of Campus Life.

Season 2 | Episode 8: Stella Ross

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Stella Ross, Student Trustee of Wake Forest University. We hear about her love of critical thinking and philosophy, her goals for her tenure as Student Trustee, the importance of sharing your voice, and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:02):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not. I am thrilled to introduce my guest on today’s episode. Originally from Birmingham, Alabama, Stella Ross is a senior at Wake Forest University, who is studying philosophy and minoring in sociology. During her time at Wake, she has been involved in Student Government, has served as a President’s Aide, co-chair of the Wake Forest University Traditions Council. She’s been a member of the Provost Student Leadership Advisory Council, Alpha Kappa Psi, Delta Delta Delta Sorority, and is currently serving as a Student Trustee. I’m excited to hear about Stella’s experiences as a student and in particular, I look forward to digging into her role as Student Trustee. As always, so much to talk about, so let’s begin.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:51):

Well, hello Stella.

Stella Ross (00:52):

Hey, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:53):

It’s so good to see you.

Stella Ross (00:54):

You as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:55):

How are things going?

Stella Ross (00:56):

Pretty good.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:56):

Good?

Stella Ross (00:56):

Pretty good.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:57):

I’m so glad we’re finally getting this time to sit together and talk about you and your background and your story. And we’ve thankfully had opportunities, lots of opportunities to connect before, but this is our first time to do it in podcast form.

Stella Ross (01:11):

I know, I’m so excited.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:12):

Me too. Me too. So, you can probably guess where I’m gonna start as it relates to the podcast. It’s a similar place that I start each podcast. So, any guesses?

Stella Ross (01:21):

Where’s home?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:22):

Yes. So-

Stella Ross (01:22):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:23):

… where is home for you? And I, before you answer, we’re both southern girls and I think we connected on that very early. And I know North Carolina is the South, but we’re from the deep south.

Stella Ross (01:32):

The… Yeah. The true, true deep south. Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:35):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (01:36):

Um, I am originally from Birmingham, Alabama. I was born and raised there, and I live in a little suburb called Vestavia Hills.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:44):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (01:45):

And that is technically, you know, the city I grew up in, but I, I really identify with Birmingham-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:50):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (01:51):

… the greater Birmingham area is my home.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:52):

Excellent.

Stella Ross (01:53):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:53):

And what does home mean to you?

Stella Ross (01:55):

Yeah, home, it’s such an interesting word because I think it evolves and changes as your lived experience evolves and changes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:04):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (02:04):

And when I think of home, you know, it’s multifaceted in the way that I think of my, my family. It’s more the people-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:10):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (02:11):

… and also the place, but defined by the people.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:14):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (02:14):

And so, you know, that’s my mom, my dad, my little brother, and our three dogs and cat. And so, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

And what kind of dogs? I have to ask.

Stella Ross (02:22):

Yes. Um, we have a German Shepherd named Willa, a Black lab named Daisy, and then a Corgi named Sybil. And our cat’s name is Vader.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

And your cat’s just tagging along.

Stella Ross (02:34):

He’s just there.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

Well, probably not tagging along because cats-

Stella Ross (02:35):

No, I mean, he’s, he’s like a cat dog.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:35):

Okay (laughs).

Stella Ross (02:36):

We joke if, you know, if he was a dog, it would make a lot of sense. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:41):

That’s funny.

Stella Ross (02:42):

Um, but, you know, Birmingham, I, really, really lucky to grow up there. It’s a great place. And a lot of my grandparents, aunts and uncles are there. So, I’ve been really blessed to grow up around a lot of family.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (02:52):

But, you know, Wake Forest has really become home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:53):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (02:54):

And especially as I get ready to graduate in May I, you know, I see this place as my home in a different way, but feel very connected to the community.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:02):

Yeah. Yeah. And I love when I hear students say that. I think parents are also like, “Wait, what?” (laughs).

Stella Ross (03:08):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

You’re like, “I’m going back home. ‘Like, no, this is your home.'” But what is it about Wake Forest that has also created that sense of home for you?

Stella Ross (03:17):

It’s, you know, I think it’s the profound sense of belonging and sense of purpose I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:22):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (03:22):

… and that’s changed and really grown in the past four years.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:27):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (03:28):

You know, I think about the first time I stepped onto campus versus what I’m doing right now, and I could have never imagined this path that has-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (03:35):

… sort of laid itself out for me. You know, it’s people, I think-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (03:38):

… that make the place. And we have such a distinctive community. And it’s hard when prospective students are like, “Tell me about Wake. Like, why do you love it?” And sometimes I’m like, I can’t do it justice, because, you know, with words, because it’s, you have to live it and feel it. Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:51):

It really is hard to describe.

Stella Ross (03:52):

It is. It’s very hard. But that’s, you know, what makes it so special.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

Yeah. Well, and I know for you, when we’ve talked before, coming from your hometown, there were not a lot of people who were coming from Birmingham to Wake.

Stella Ross (04:03):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

So, what was it, what was your mindset that helped you to find that sense of belonging, that sense of purpose? And maybe take us back to, to that part of Stella-

Stella Ross (04:14):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:14):

… maybe in high school-

Stella Ross (04:14):

High school.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:15):

… as you were making that decision.

Stella Ross (04:16):

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I went to a fairly large high schoo,l and I had a pretty decent high school experience. It wasn’t anything remarkable. I think that’s just sort of the nature of high school. But, um, I really, it’s funny ’cause I, I wanted to get as far away from Birmingham as possible-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (04:36):

… which is funny now because I go back, and I have a deeper appreciation for it-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:39):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (04:40):

… now that there’s been distance. But I wanted a school that was going to really, you know… Everyone’s like, “Oh, we grow our students holistically,” but I wanted a school that was really gonna do that-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (04:51):

… and, and stay true to that commitment. And I remember touring Wake with my dad, it was before COVID, so I actually got to see the campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

Oh, okay.

Stella Ross (04:59):

… which was great. Um, but it was going into my junior year of high school, and we toured, and it was pouring down rain.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

(laughs).

Stella Ross (05:08):

And my dad, we were at the Admissions Office and my dad was like, “Do you really wanna like go on the tour?” And I was like, “We are going on this tour.”

Shea Kidd Brown (05:12):

“We are here, we are doing it.”

Stella Ross (05:14):

We didn’t have an umbrella, we didn’t have a raincoat, we had nothing. And I remember we walked around, we were soaking wet, and I was like, “This is it.” Like-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

Wow.

Stella Ross (05:20):

… you know, it was just kind of like, um, I remember my guidance counselor telling me, it’s like trying to find like a prom dress. Like when you put the right one on, it just, it just fits.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:27):

You just know. Well, and what-

Stella Ross (05:29):

It’s just right.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

… what’s interesting about the rainy day is I always wonder, is it, you know, those perfect days? Like, today’s the first thing, day of spring, that we’re recording, and students are out on the Quad.

Stella Ross (05:40):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

But even that, that shines through even on a rainy day, it sounds like, yeah.

Stella Ross (05:43):

It does. And even in the middle of summer when, you know, campus is very quiet-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:47):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (05:48):

… um, and you don’t have that vibrancy that’s here on a day, like, like today.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:52):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (05:53):

But, um, yeah, I really just, I knew I was gonna be alone going into it. And, um, that was something that I was excited about.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (06:01):

And it was just one of those things that was like, I’m gonna meet so many different new people.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:04):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (06:05):

And it really, it, it was, it was kind of a, a risk just because a lot of my friends went to Auburn, Alabama, um, where they knew a bunch of people, but it has been so worth the reward.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:15):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (06:16):

And that’s the best decision I’ve made for myself thus far.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:18):

Yeah. When you talked about, I, I just remember when we had lunch, the, the, the need for a reset-

Stella Ross (06:24):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:24):

… and how Wake created that for you.

Stella Ross (06:26):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:27):

Yeah. So, I know you’re a philosophy major.

Stella Ross (06:30):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:32):

Um, and you have really thrived in that line of study and have a lot of interest there. So, did you imagine, let’s maybe go back to the, we’re still in this kind of, where’s home for you, where’d you grow up-

Stella Ross (06:46):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

… part of our conversation, were you always a deep thinker, you know, early on in your life? Is that something that emerged later?

Stella Ross (06:55):

Yeah, I think I, in ways have been a deep thinker. Obviously, that’s progressed, but I started my like, educational journey, you could say, at a Montessori school-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:07):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (07:07):

… which I think was very, um, distinct and defined-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (07:11):

… in a lot of the ways I think. And it taught me to, to think differently and, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

And independently.

Stella Ross (07:16):

And independently, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:16):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (07:17):

And sort of outside of the box you could say. And that just began and really was nurtured. And I think about like, my educational journey and, you know, there’s like defining moments-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:27):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (07:27):

… in your life, but especially within that journey. And it was my 11th grade AP Lang class, and I’ll shout him out because he’s awesome, Mr. Sinnott, he’s my teacher.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:37):

Yeah. Nice.

Stella Ross (07:37):

He like completely changed that deep thinking for me. And I think that’s really when it wasn’t like, oh, it’s gonna be philosophy, but that’s really when that critical thinking, I think just-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:46):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (07:46):

… like broke. And then I came here and discovered philosophy and was like, “Oh my goodness. Like this is, you know, this is where I need to be putting in my time.” And I love it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:54):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (07:54):

And that’s, you know, that’s another huge thing is do what you love.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:58):

Right. Well, and I, it’s the beauty of the Wake Forest education too, because you’re not forced to jump into a major.

Stella Ross (08:04):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:05):

And of course, some students have an idea, but for you, you, it sounds like you had just kind of big questions about-

Stella Ross (08:10):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:10):

… what you wanted to do. Maybe was it all always kind of in there?

Stella Ross (08:14):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:14):

Okay.

Stella Ross (08:14):

It’s always kind of, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:15):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (08:15):

It’s always been there.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:16):

Yeah. So, that’s also, you knew kind of the end result-

Stella Ross (08:19):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:19):

… but figuring out what pathway and, and coupling that with sociology.

Stella Ross (08:23):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:23):

How did sociology become, uh, a minor?

Stella Ross (08:26):

It was sort of on a whim. I, one of my best friends, who she graduated and she’s at UVA law now, but she was like, “Take this, you know, Sociology of Immigration class with me.” And this was sophomore year, um, before, you know, you declare your major.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:39):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (08:40):

You, you had that flexibility to do those things. And I just randomly took it, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so much fun.” And then it just started progressing into Sociology of Guns.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:49):

Hmm.

Stella Ross (08:49):

And now I’m in a race and racism class, and then it’s like, “Oh, here’s this minor.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:52):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (08:53):

Um, and I love it. It was kind of a happy accident, I would say.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

Yeah. I love that. And I’m gonna use “happy accident” because it’s the, the value of the humanities and what we do at Wake Forest-

Stella Ross (09:06):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:06):

… is expose you to these things that you wouldn’t have necessarily know, known, you knew your end result, but the learning and the critical thinking and the engagement with faculty. And I’ve heard you rave about the philosophy department.

Stella Ross (09:18):

Oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:19):

And, um, that’s one of those, I hope you don’t mind me saying, but one of those majors that parents are often, like, “I mean, as long as you’re not a philosophy major.” (laughs).

Stella Ross (09:26):

Yep. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:26):

So, did you have any interesting conversations with your family about that?

Stella Ross (09:30):

I did. I think my parents are the most… I mean, I know not everyone, but a lot of people feel this way. I, they are the best people ever. They’re, um, amazing and they, you know, are so supportive. But I think when I came in and was like, “Guys, guess what? I’m gonna be a philosophy major.” My dad always jokes, you know, “You’re gonna go work at the Barnes and Noble.”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:54):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (09:54):

Um, and he, he means it lightheartedly, of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:56):

Yeah, of course.

Stella Ross (09:57):

But, you know, I think they know I’m happy, and I think when they hear what I’m working on and, you know, I’m working on my thesis right now, they’re like, “Okay, this is really challenging her. And, you know, it’s pushing her to grow.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:08):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (10:09):

And so they’re, they’re happy with it. And I think too, ’cause for me, you know, I have a very clear plan and path and conviction to go to law school. So, it’s, it makes sense.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:17):

Right.

Stella Ross (10:17):

But, um, there’s definitely a little bit of stigma around that-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:20):

Yeah.

Stella Ross (10:20):

… which I think is not true and shouldn’t, shouldn’t happen, but.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:23):

Yeah. Well, and I think your story is a great commercial for philosophy (laughs).

Stella Ross (10:27):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:28):

Um, we might get to talk a little bit more about what you’ve learned throughout the course of our conversation, but one area I wanna make sure we really dive into-

Stella Ross (10:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:38):

… is we, you and I have had a relationship for a while, but our relationship has gotten even closer as we’ve navigated, um, student trustee-

Stella Ross (10:46):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:47):

… position. And so, um, for those who don’t know, I kind of work alongside the process as we select a student trustee. And then as part of my role, the Student Life Committee is a, a part of the trustee structure, and we have a student trustee who is, um, elected-

Stella Ross (11:04):

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:05):

… and, um, appointed and elected, I guess is a combination.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:08):

Um, and so I’ve, I’ve really appreciated that opportunity to get to know you. And one of the things you’ve really been interested in, in your role is just bringing more visibility to what a student trustee is. So, I really, in some ways this is different than a normal podcast. And that I would love to focus some of our time on-

Stella Ross (11:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:26):

… just what it is, what you’ve learned, you know, all of those sorts of things. So, I think just if it’s okay with you, maybe us starting with like, what is the role of a student trustee?

Stella Ross (11:36):

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a great question. And you know, like you said, it’s something that I feel like a lot of students, um, and even faculty I found don’t really know a lot about-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:46):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (11:47):

… um, which is a shame ’cause it’s, it is my favorite thing I’ve done at Wake-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:50):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (11:50):

… um, by far. And the role is, so, it’s essentially there’s one student on the board, and this is the way, you know, our board system works, and that student serves one term. So, it begins July of one year, ends July of the next. Um, and you’re essentially a full voting member of the board.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:08):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (12:08):

Which is really, really cool, besides just logistically what is the role? It’s awesome ’cause I, I’m able to work with all of the other trustees on the board who have such unique experiences and connections with Wake. Um, and it’s really just opened up a whole new world of this is, this is what Wake means to different people of different generations.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:27):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (12:27):

And this is our history and who are we, where are we going? And being able to be a small part in voice and decisions like that is really, really neat. And I’ve just loved it so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:37):

Yeah. Well, I would say it’s a big part.

Stella Ross (12:39):

Yes. It is (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (12:40):

Um, the trustees are always interested in what a current student thinks. You know, the trustee body is the governing body of the university. And, um, I think having the role of student trustee is really that conscience-

Stella Ross (12:54):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

… like constantly, um, as a part of those discussions. So why were you, why were you interested? I know you had, I remember our first lunch was in the little room off the Mag Room.

Stella Ross (13:04):

Yes. Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:05):

… and with some other people. And, um, you know, you were in, at that point really involved in student government.

Stella Ross (13:11):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:11):

So, um, what was it about the trustee position that interested you?

Stella Ross (13:15):

I, you know, like a lot of students didn’t really know what it was until I got an email. It’s like, “Oh, you’ve been nominated for this thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:22):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (13:22):

And I was like, “What is this thing?” And, you know, me being myself, I went out and like found, I was like, “Okay, who, what is this?”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (13:28):

“What is this role?” And went ahead and, you know, started the process going into my junior year and it’s, you know, not very common that juniors are chosen for the role. Um, but I was like, I’m gonna put my, put my hat in the ring and see what happens. And it was a really great experience just to, you know, have exposure and also learn from the process, ’cause it’s a very, I mean, it’s a long process.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:50):

Right.

Stella Ross (13:50):

It starts in January and it ends in April.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (13:52):

So, I mean, it’s an entire semester. And I made it through about halfway-ish and then, you know, it just, it wasn’t my time.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:59):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (14:00):

And that was great ’cause I got to end up going abroad. Um, and then came back my junior year and did it again. And that’s, I think the junior year I had a very clear vision for why I wanted to do this.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:08):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (14:08):

I knew I wanted to play a role in Wake Forest that was bigger than myself. Um, and be able to contribute to things that would outlast sort of me and my legacy here. Um, because I truly just, I joke with everyone that if you cut me open, I bleed old gold and black.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:26):

(laughs).

Stella Ross (14:26):

It’s cheesy, but it’s true.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

Mm-hmm.

Stella Ross (14:28):

Um, and I just really wanted to give back in a way to a university that’s given me so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:32):

Yeah. What have you learned so far? Any, any interesting insights that you’ve gained from the experience so far? And I say so far ’cause it’s, it’s coming toward an end.

Stella Ross (14:43):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

But you still have several months.

Stella Ross (14:45):

Yes. I’m technically, our wonderful board chairwoman bought it. She was saying, you know, “You’re only, you’re only halfway through technically.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:51):

That’s right.

Stella Ross (14:51):

Which is, which is weird ’cause it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

Because it goes into the summer.

Stella Ross (14:53):

Right. It’s a different timeline. But I have learned so much and it, it takes, sometimes I have to like, actively stop myself and say, “Why don’t you reflect on what has happened?” Shea Kidd Brown (15:02): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (15:02): And we’re, you know, as you know, and most of the world is in a really interesting place- Shea Kidd Brown (15:07): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (15:08): … and there’s a lot happening specifically with higher education. Shea Kidd Brown (15:10): Sure. Stella Ross (15:11): And so there’s been I think a lot of learning opportunities, but just the value of making connections with those that you work with- Shea Kidd Brown (15:17): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (15:18): … that’s what I found I to be the most beneficial, getting to know the trustees. Shea Kidd Brown (15:22): Yeah. Stella Ross (15:23): Because not only are they like a wealth of, of wisdom and knowledge, but they’re just really awesome people. And being able to connect with them and get to know them, I think helps us facilitate more real and raw conversations- Shea Kidd Brown (15:35): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (15:36): … as we face things that are challenging in conversations that are not always easy. Shea Kidd Brown (15:40): Yeah. Stella Ross (15:40): It makes those conversations go better, I think. Shea Kidd Brown (15:43): Yeah. And what have you learned about the university? Stella Ross (15:44): So much, so much about the university. It’s funny ’cause a lot, you know, you know, a lot of what we talk about is confidential. Shea Kidd Brown (15:51): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (15:52): And, um, that’s something that is great and that I feel it’s a huge honor for me to have, but it is a little isolating sometimes- Shea Kidd Brown (15:58): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (15:59): … being like the only student- Shea Kidd Brown (16:00): Right. Stella Ross (16:00): … on the board. You know, I’ve learned about the university that it’s, it’s really magical seeing the administration. So like you guys work with us, the trustees and, you know, we, we collaborate, we share ideas. Shea Kidd Brown (16:14): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (16:15): We, you know, sometimes we have ideas that don’t go as well- Shea Kidd Brown (16:17): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (16:18): … as we think they will. And, you know, we pick ourselves back up and we move forward. And I think I just learned how much everyone truly loves the university. Shea Kidd Brown (16:25): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stella Ross (16:25): It’s not just a bunch of random people, you know, saying, “Okay, like, let’s just make this decision.” Everyone is very thoughtful and careful with the decisions that they make. Shea Kidd Brown (16:34): Yeah. Yeah. And I know you from the beginning have, have had a very specific agenda. Not, and sometimes we’ll use agenda as a negative, but it’s been good. Stella Ross (16:43): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (16:45): You know, I think, you know, you’ve had a chance to share what that, you know, I, I didn’t take your words, but you called it like a mystical something- Stella Ross (16:53): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:53): … or like- Stella Ross (16:53): It was like The Wizard of Oz. Shea Kidd Brown (16:54): Yes. Stella Ross (16:54): The board’s like The Wizard of Oz behind a curtain. Shea Kidd Brown (16:57): Yeah. Right. Right. Stella Ross (16:57): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (16:59): And so, um, tell, tell me a little bit more about how you want that, um, to not be the perception. Stella Ross (17:05): Yeah. Um, I think that generally what I’ve sort of gathered from my time as the student trustee is that, you know, students see the board as this, you know, like I said, Wizard of Oz- Shea Kidd Brown (17:16): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (17:16): … behind a curtain. These people who are making decisions who don’t really care about us. And, um, you know, that obviously is not true. Shea Kidd Brown (17:26): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (17:27): It’s, it’s just a misconception I think. And so I kind of saw a natural fit for my role to be, you know, let’s demystify the board- Shea Kidd Brown (17:36): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (17:36): … because they really do want to hear the students and hear their perspectives and their voices. And, um, it’s important, you know, when we’re making decisions that impact students 10 years, 15 years down the road, but also like right now. Shea Kidd Brown (17:49): Right. Stella Ross (17:49): Um, and so I kind of saw that as my, you know, charge- Shea Kidd Brown (17:54): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (17:54): … or agenda to really facilitate that connection. And hopefully it’s something that can continue. And I think it makes us better, you know, fiduciary guardians- Shea Kidd Brown (18:03): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (18:03): … of the university, but also just keeps us in touch with, you know, the Pro Humanitate spirit and who we are and what we wanna be. Shea Kidd Brown (18:11): Mm-hmm. What are some of the ways that you wanna manifest that? Stella Ross (18:13): Yeah, so, um, one of the first things we’re doing in April, April 1st, um, is we’re calling it Bridging the Forest. So, it’s a conversation between students and trustees, and it’s on a Zoom model because sometimes it’s hard to get all the trustees in one place. Shea Kidd Brown (18:29): Yeah. And students (laughs). Stella Ross (18:30): And students, yeah. I mean, our students are very busy- Shea Kidd Brown (18:32): Yeah. Stella Ross (18:32): … and have a lot of commitments, but it’s really taking shape and forming in an exciting way. And it’s just gonna be a round table discussion with trustees. Um, some members, you know, of the cabinet and certain students that, um, are interested and want to learn more. And I think that’s gonna be a really great first step to sort of demystifying that role to just talk and have a conversation with a board member and see that, oh, it’s just, you know, this is this really awesome person who has this connection to Wake Forest, and that’s how we relate to one another- Shea Kidd Brown (19:04): Yeah. Stella Ross (19:04): … and we share experiences that way. Shea Kidd Brown (19:06): Yeah. Well, I think it’s a great idea. And you also had a presence at the President’s leadership conference- Stella Ross (19:11): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (19:12): … s- several weeks ago along with members of the board office. Stella Ross (19:14): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:15): So, you’ve already, even though you haven’t had a, you haven’t hosted a formal event yet, you’ve already started those conversations- Stella Ross (19:21): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:21): … in many ways. And I think that’s really important. You, you talked about this a little bit in terms of, um, what you’ve learned about the university and just, um, how we all work together. Stella Ross (19:30): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:30): Are there specific things you’ve learned about leadership? Stella Ross (19:33): Yeah, I, I think for me, and I think for any student trustee, it’s hard or daunting at first to walk into a room full of board members and, uh, members of the administration. You know, everyone is so successful and accomplished in their, in their specific fields. And you feel like, “Oh, am I a little out of place? Because, you know, I haven’t even finished college.” But, you know, you’re there for a reason. Shea Kidd Brown (19:59): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (19:59): And I’ve learned that the things in the time and leadership that I think I’ve seen the most growth in myself are the moments where I just was a silent observer. Um- Shea Kidd Brown (20:09): Hmm. Say more about that. Stella Ross (20:10): Which is, you know, for me it’s sort of counter to I think who I am. I’m very outgoing and, you know, those things. But I think it’s, it’s watching people interact or listening to comments that are made- Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (20:22): … and thinking, “Okay, you know, that was really interesting” and sort of mentally noting that and, and following up later. Shea Kidd Brown (20:29): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stella Ross (20:29): And I’ve had a really, really awesome experience because I have, you know, gotten to form a relationship with, um, our board chair- Shea Kidd Brown (20:39): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (20:39): … who is, she’s just become a really great mentor to me. And we talk very often and we have a lot of debriefs. And I think I learned so much from her, too, specifically. And I take that and I’m like, “This is, you know, kind of the vibe I was getting, what is this right? Am I on the right track?” Shea Kidd Brown (20:53): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (20:53): And we’re able to talk about those things. And I think that’s what really leadership is. It’s not always, you know, standing up in front of the board and giving the student trustee report. That’s great. Shea Kidd Brown (21:01): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (21:02): But it’s, you know, those moments where you’re like, I recognize my deficit in this area and I’m just gonna sit and listen and observe. Shea Kidd Brown (21:09): Yeah. Well, and that’s so transferable to so many things to be able to take that experience to wherever you, uh, where, I mean, you’re situated in a lot of places still on campus and- Stella Ross (21:20): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (21:20): … to be able to listen and, um, process and, you know, I think about reflection, and there’s a formula. I didn’t come up with this, but it’s what, so what, now what, but- Stella Ross (21:31): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (21:31): … but it’s, it sort of slows you down, like, “What just happened?” Stella Ross (21:34): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (21:35): “What steps do I need to take as a result of that? And why is it important?” And, um, in general, I think we have a lot of talking in our society and not- Stella Ross (21:45): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (21:45): … not as much listening. So, I love hearing that that’s been a major takeaway. And also something you said is sort of asking for help or having a- Stella Ross (21:54): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (21:55): … having a coach or someone alongside you- Stella Ross (21:57): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (21:57): … that’s, that’s something that, uh, from my perspective in leadership that I never wanna lose. Stella Ross (22:03): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (22:03): So I, you know, very often will admit, you know, the things I don’t know, or in your words, the deficit, because that’s, what makes me better is connecting with someone and, and not necessarily making that deficit of strength, just recognizing it- Stella Ross (22:18): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:18): … and having that complimentary. And, you know, from my conversations with students, often I look to students to say, you know, “Here’s, here’s how I’m thinking about this. What do you think?” Stella Ross (22:27): Absolutely. Shea Kidd Brown (22:27): And then students share, “Well, yes, exactly. That’s how we feel.” Or, “Well, it’s, it’s showing up a little bit different,” and then that helps me to be better at what I do. Stella Ross (22:36): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:36): So, that, those are great lessons. And you’re only halfway there. Stella Ross (22:39): I know. Shea Kidd Brown (22:39): So, and you’ve already learned, um, those important lessons. So, you share, you touched on a little bit, you know, students’ perceptions, but what, what do you want them to know about the student trustee, but also just in general about the, the governing structure of the board? Stella Ross (22:55): I think, you know, I’ll start with the student trustee part- Shea Kidd Brown (22:57): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (22:57): … um, is that it is, I think I obviously am biased, the coolest thing you can do on this campus because not only, you know, are you getting to connect with the trustees and faculty and administration, but it also pushes you to be more aware of all of the different communities around you. I mean, we talk about this all the time, you know, and you, you’re the one that really taught it to me that, you know, our campus is not a monolith- Shea Kidd Brown (23:26): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (23:26): … and it should never be represented in that light. And I think that’s something I think about very often. Shea Kidd Brown (23:31): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (23:31): When I approach any sort of event situation in the board is, you know, I’m never gonna go up there and be like, “Okay, this is just, this is what’s happening.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:40): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (23:40): It’s, you know, it always, it seems of course, you know, there’s, there’s more perspectives that are involved in this, but it seems that it’s this way. And, um, that’s something about the position I think that is really unique, but also, you know, it pushes me to be better and it pushes me to be more empathetic and to really work to be more in touch with my peers. Not just like as the student trustee, but just as a human. And I think that’s something that, you know, is really great about the position. And then- Shea Kidd Brown (24:07): Trustees in general. Stella Ross (24:08): Yeah. Um, the trustees in general, I mean, are very hardworking individuals. And I didn’t even realize this, but, you know, they don’t get paid to do this job. They do it out of, you know, love for the university. And so it’s really neat when you see people from all different fields and professions come together to put our brains together and make decisions. I think that’s something that’s really cool. And they’re also just, like I said earlier, they’re just like really awesome people. Shea Kidd Brown (24:35): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (24:36): Um, and they have such interesting stories, and I feel like I learn so much every time I talk to any of them. Shea Kidd Brown (24:41): Yeah. Have you had any, any insights about the speed at which change happens on a campus because of your- Stella Ross (24:46): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:47): … like all the things that kind of go into decision making? Stella Ross (24:50): It’s such a, I’ll start with like, what I thought it was just like, okay, you know, everyone gets in a room and we just make a decision – done. Shea Kidd Brown (24:56): (laughs). Stella Ross (24:57): And now I’m like, that cannot be farther from what actually happens. Shea Kidd Brown (25:00): (laughs). Stella Ross (25:01): Um, it’s, you know, decisions take time to do them well. Shea Kidd Brown (25:04): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (25:05): And that’s something, you know, Wake Forest we do as a, a community and a governing body is that we wanna do things well, and we wanna get it right. So, those things take time. Shea Kidd Brown (25:14): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (25:14): And you can’t rush certain things. Shea Kidd Brown (25:15): Right. Stella Ross (25:16): Um, and so I think that’s something else that it would be great for, you know, everyone to know is that decisions and change happens, but it takes time to do it right. Shea Kidd Brown (25:26): Yeah. And speaking of that, you know, we have a, a culture of our students wanna make a difference. I think that’s a unique- Stella Ross (25:33): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:33): … aspect about the Wake Forest student. And a difference looks a lot of different ways- Stella Ross (25:37): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (25:37): … depending on what your interests are. But for the students who are in that place where they want to make a difference, what advice would you give to them? Stella Ross (25:45): Yeah. I, I would just say that, you know, use the things and the support systems you have around you, whether that be through an organization, a club, even just sending an email to an administrator. I mean, you guys are so open to hearing students’ perspectives, um, that, you know, just always remembering that your voice does matter. Shea Kidd Brown (26:10): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (26:11): And that even if it feels like the smallest thing, or you feel like, oh, it’s not enough, it is going to do something. Shea Kidd Brown (26:16): Yeah. Yeah. Stella Ross (26:17): And it’s going to start, you know, a chain reaction. And also knowing that people are listening to you and your voice is not only heard, but it’s valued. Shea Kidd Brown (26:24): Right. Stella Ross (26:24): Um, and just being confident in that and being confident in your lived experience and sharing your story and what you think our community should look like. Shea Kidd Brown (26:33): Yeah. Stella Ross (26:34): And just sharing that with us. Shea Kidd Brown (26:35): Yeah. Well, and so an interesting observation that, about that, I think it’s what you described is beautiful, and you didn’t say go apply to be fill in the blank position. Stella Ross (26:46): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (26:47): You talked about observing- Stella Ross (26:49): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:49): … something that happens and doing something about it. And that’s really what leadership is, is, is courageous action. Just, you know, using your sphere of influence to see something that needs to be done. And that’s, um, I think something we need to get out there more with our- Stella Ross (27:04): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (27:04): … students, because sometimes the pressure is, “I need to be, you know, president-” Stella Ross (27:08): In a leadership position. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:10): “… of this or whatever that may be.” And it, it truly is how you described, you know, having a, having an opinion and sharing that with other people to make this student experience better. But that trains you then for whatever is after this. Stella Ross (27:24): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (27:25): Um, which is, which is also important. So, speaking of after this (laughs), thank you for talking, talking through the trustee position ’cause I, I know that’s something you and I have talked about- Stella Ross (27:36): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (27:36): … making that, um, broader. And also I don’t, um, there’s a lot about you (laughs) that I wanna talk about. So, we zoomed in for a bit, but let’s zoom out, and, um, think about, you know, next steps- Stella Ross (27:50): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:51): … you did mention, and if you could see my face, I’m sort of treading lightly on that. Stella Ross (27:55): Uh-huh. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:56): Because this is the time of year where seniors begin to be extra sentimental- Stella Ross (28:01): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (28:01): … about every last thing. So, um, you know, as you’re starting to prepare for graduation, what are you excited about? What are you nervous about? Stella Ross (28:12): I, you know, this is a question I, it’s been on replay in my mind- Shea Kidd Brown (28:16): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (28:16): … especially coming back from spring break ’cause now it’s when it gets real. Shea Kidd Brown (28:19): Sure. And it flies. Stella Ross (28:20): And it flies. Yeah. Yes, yes. My housemates, I was actually talking to one of my housemates Sydney about this. Just, you know, it, it oscillates. I think every day is a new day. And I wake up some mornings and I’m like, “Okay, I’m, I’m really ready for this.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:33): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (28:34): “You know, I’m ready to face what’s next.” I, um, the plan is to go to law school in the fall. Shea Kidd Brown (28:39): Okay. Stella Ross (28:39): I’m still waiting for decisions to come back in. Shea Kidd Brown (28:42): Sure. Stella Ross (28:42): But, um, I, you know, have faith that that will work itself out. Shea Kidd Brown (28:45): Yeah. Stella Ross (28:45): So, hopefully we’ll be back in a, you know, another community in the fall. Shea Kidd Brown (28:49): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (28:49): Whether that’s, you know, here, elsewhere, I don’t know. But, um, I’m excited for that, for the- Shea Kidd Brown (28:55): Yeah. Stella Ross (28:55): … change. I think, you know, when you’re a senior and you’re kind of in a position where you’re really sad some days, and then you’re like, “Okay, I’m really ready some days.” Shea Kidd Brown (29:03): Right. Stella Ross (29:03): That’s a good place to be. Shea Kidd Brown (29:04): It is. Stella Ross (29:05): Because that means, you know, I’ve taken advantage of the opportunities here. I’ve grown, and now it’s time to take that and go into the world and do something else. Shea Kidd Brown (29:12): Right. Stella Ross (29:13): And, um, that’s what I’m excited for. But I’m also, I’m sad, I’m sad to leave, you know, the comfort that I built here. Shea Kidd Brown (29:20): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (29:20): It’s, it’s funny to think that, you know, four years ago this was, you know, such an uncomfortable place. Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (29:26): And now it’s the absolute opposite. It’s become, you know, like you said, home. Shea Kidd Brown (29:30): Yeah. Stella Ross (29:30): Um, and that’s what makes me sad is thinking, you know, you’ll never get this time back. And college I think is so distinct and it’s, I don’t know, it’s just such an interesting time of life- Shea Kidd Brown (29:42): It is. Stella Ross (29:43): … and I’m gonna miss it, but I’m ready for what’s next- Shea Kidd Brown (29:45): Yeah. Stella Ross (29:45): … and the next challenge. Shea Kidd Brown (29:46): Yeah. Well, and it is this, um, I sometimes call it a learning lab, just in that you have these opportunities to, um, step out and do something different, or take the course you wouldn’t have taken- Stella Ross (30:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (30:00): … or befriend the person you wouldn’t have befriended or travel abroad for a semester. Um, all with this netting, not, not that… It’s, um, you know, students who are at Wake Forest are very talented, and you have the supports around you if some, if you do fall. You know, there’s- Stella Ross (30:17): Right. Of course. Shea Kidd Brown (30:18): … there’s, there’s, um, there’s that system. And so, and it, throughout it, it’s, you know, first to second year, second to third, third to fourth, and then fourth to whatever’s next. It is amazing, like the lightning speed at which you grow- Stella Ross (30:32): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (30:32): … and develop. And, you know, I, I know you, it feels like we just met, um, but I’ve seen that enormous growth. And you talked about your study abroad experience- Stella Ross (30:42): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (30:43): … and how even that short amount of time, you know, that distance… Can you maybe talk about that briefly- Stella Ross (30:48): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (30:49): … the distance from Wake Forest and being immersed in another culture, what that teaches? Stella Ross (30:53): I, you know, kind of went into it being like, okay, everyone, it’s such a culture thing here- Shea Kidd Brown (30:57): Yeah.

Stella Ross (30:57): … for juniors in the fall to go abroad. And I was like, “Okay, I guess everyone’s doing it, so I’m gonna do it.” Um, kind of followed the pack with that one. Shea Kidd Brown (31:03): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (31:03): But it ended up being, I mean, I love Wake, and it’s amazing, but just such an amazing semester. I mean- Shea Kidd Brown (31:11): Where did you go? Stella Ross (31:12): I went to Florence, Italy. Shea Kidd Brown (31:13): Yeah. Stella Ross (31:13): So, and my program was a little different because I actually lived with a host family. Shea Kidd Brown (31:18): Okay. Stella Ross (31:18): So I was like, you know, I think it’s gonna be great. It would be fun to live with my friends- Shea Kidd Brown (31:24): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (31:24): … but I think that I would get a lot more out of it if I decided, “Hey, like, let’s do this, you know, very uncomfortable thing and live with the host family.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:30): Yeah. Stella Ross (31:31): I didn’t speak any Italian. Shea Kidd Brown (31:32): Wow. Stella Ross (31:32): Um, and was just kind of like, “Okay, let’s see what happens.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:35): That’s so brave. Stella Ross (31:36): And it ended up being the best semester ever. Shea Kidd Brown (31:38): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (31:39): Um, my host family, I became very close with. My host mom, her name’s Diletta, my host dad Alessandro. And, um, they lived in this like, beautiful house in Florence- Shea Kidd Brown (31:50): Hmm. Stella Ross (31:50): … and we would have family dinners together. And I just learned so much about the Italian culture and feel still very connected to it. Um, but it just showed me, you know, sometimes at Wake we, we say, you know, we’re in a bubble sometimes. Shea Kidd Brown (32:02): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (32:03): And I think at that point in my life, I was really ready to experience something different- Shea Kidd Brown (32:07): Right. Stella Ross (32:07): … and then come back with a deeper appreciation and a really changed worldview about, you know, there’s different people that live different ways. And it really taught me that there’s, I’m, you know, I used to think, oh, that there’s this one path I need to take, and this is the path. And that really taught me like, no, there’s a million different ways to get where you wanna go- Shea Kidd Brown (32:26): Right. Stella Ross (32:26): … and it’s okay if it looks a little different. Shea Kidd Brown (32:28): Yeah. Absolutely. Stella Ross (32:28): Um, and just live in the moment, too. I- Shea Kidd Brown (32:30): Right. Stella Ross (32:31): … taught me to really just be present and enjoy the people around you. Shea Kidd Brown (32:35): Yeah. Stella Ross (32:35): And that’s something that, you know, is very Italian. Shea Kidd Brown (32:37): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (32:37): They take their time with everything, which is a good lesson for me. And I just, I loved it. Shea Kidd Brown (32:41): Yeah. Stella Ross (32:41): It was awesome. Shea Kidd Brown (32:42): And gelato every day. Stella Ross (32:43): Oh, yeah. Oh, so, so good. Shea Kidd Brown (32:44): Yeah (laughs). Stella Ross (32:45): Just the food. Oh, amazing. Especially when you have an Italian woman cooking for you. Shea Kidd Brown (32:51): Yes. Yes. Stella Ross (32:51): I mean, it’s, it’s a little hard to come back to the Pit after that (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (32:52): I would imagine. Stella Ross (32:52): But- Shea Kidd Brown (32:52): The pasta bar looks a little different (laughs). Stella Ross (32:56): Looks a little different. Shea Kidd Brown (32:56): Yeah. Stella Ross (32:57): The Pit’s great. But, you know, kind of a transition there. Shea Kidd Brown (33:01): Yeah. Well, and what a, what a gift to have that going into your senior year- Stella Ross (33:05): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:05): … this period of, you know, another period of change that you’re getting ready for. Um, that’s really, really an exciting thing. So, just a few more things that I wanted to ask you about. You know, we talked about law school- Stella Ross (33:17): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:18): … and that track. Um, what particular law or topics interest you in that arena? Stella Ross (33:25): Yeah. I, so like I was just saying, you think you have this one path, and it changes. Shea Kidd Brown (33:30): (laughs). Stella Ross (33:30): Before coming to Wake, so I guess it was going into my freshman year, randomly was connected with a public defender in, uh, Birmingham. Shea Kidd Brown (33:39): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (33:39): And she kind of let me come in and have this pseudo internship. And at this point I knew I wanted to go to law school, but I had never had like a real intimate experience with the law. Shea Kidd Brown (33:49): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (33:49): And that, you know, was a really life changing moment where I was like, “I know I’m doing what I need to be doing.” And felt very convicted to go to law school. Because I had lived in this community for, you know, I guess at that point 18 years- Shea Kidd Brown (34:02): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (34:02): … and it opened these doors to this other part of the community that I’d never been exposed to. Shea Kidd Brown (34:08): Hmm. Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (34:08): I mean, people living in extreme poverty who have just faced unimaginable hardships. Shea Kidd Brown (34:12): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (34:13): And the public defender I worked for, her name’s Melina Goldfarb, she’s fantastic. But she, the compassion that she showed these people, not only being their attorney, but also just believing in them, it, you know, changed a lot of their lives. Shea Kidd Brown (34:26): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (34:26): And it showed me that the law’s a way, you know, not only to, you know, bring justice, which is such an abstract concept- Shea Kidd Brown (34:33): True. Stella Ross (34:33): … but, you know, you can meet people with compassion when they are faced, you know, with the court system. Shea Kidd Brown (34:39): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (34:40): And just because somebody is charged with something doesn’t mean they really did it. And, um, different things like that. And that was, you know, I, I think public defending is something that I’m a hundred percent going to end up doing. I don’t know at what part in my legal career. Shea Kidd Brown (34:54): Wow. Stella Ross (34:54): But it’s something I really hope to do because it’s, you know, I still feel very convicted. And I actually went back the next summer and worked with her again, and it was fantastic. Shea Kidd Brown (35:03): Yeah. That’s amazing. And then you’ve had lots of experiences in Washington. Stella Ross (35:07): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (35:07): And so, um, what are your thoughts on, um, you know, the current… And this isn’t like a partisan question- Stella Ross (35:15): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (35:15): … but just given the current landscape of the political pulse- Stella Ross (35:21): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (35:21): … you know, how are you making sense of that? How are your friends, um, students on campus making sense? And given your interest also in- Stella Ross (35:29): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (35:30): … in going into the law later? I’m just curious. I bet you have some thoughts. Stella Ross (35:34): Yeah. It’s obviously, you know, first foremost, I think it’s just, it’s a lot every day, um, ’cause things change so fast. Shea Kidd Brown (35:42): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (35:42): But out of anything, I just think about, you know, sometimes in politics on both sides, um, whatever, you know, political beliefs you hold is that we forget to just be like a human. Shea Kidd Brown (35:53): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (35:55): Um, and just we’re all at the end of the day, you know, we all come from lived, different lived experiences and, um, have different thoughts and ideologies, but we’re human. Shea Kidd Brown (36:04): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (36:04): And I think that is so forgotten in politics. And that’s something, you know, my time in D.C. really showed me was how much you can truly accomplish when you just start with that, “Hey, we’re both human.” And, you know, instead of jumping into these are our differences that divide us. Like, you know, these are the things that unite us. Whether that be talking about family or a common hobby. I mean, it was the smallest things that I would see people begin to really build off of. Shea Kidd Brown (36:32): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (36:33): Um, and I think that’s a lot of my friends here, that’s what we talk about is, we just forget to be human- Shea Kidd Brown (36:39): Hmm. Stella Ross (36:39): … and we forget, you know, and I say we, but, you know, I think- Shea Kidd Brown (36:43): Collectively. Yeah. Stella Ross (36:44): … collectively, um, that that’s something that’s forgotten. And I think I try to remember always to be just empathetic. Shea Kidd Brown (36:52): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (36:52): Um, that’s, I love that word. I’ve always loved that word. And I think it can mean so many different things to different people. Shea Kidd Brown (36:57): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (36:58): But especially now more than ever- Shea Kidd Brown (36:59): Yeah. Stella Ross (37:00): … we just need empathy and humanity to- Shea Kidd Brown (37:02): Yeah. Stella Ross (37:02): … shine through. Shea Kidd Brown (37:03): Yeah. Well, you could almost predict where I was going when you said humanity, ’cause when I think about human flourishing and what it means to be a part of the Wake Forest community, you can’t not think about Pro Humanitate- Stella Ross (37:15): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (37:16): … and what that, what that is. So, how does that play into your experience at Wake Forest and your current thinking that you were just talking about? Stella Ross (37:24): Yeah. I think that, you know, it’s, it’s, I love it so much. I love our motto so much ’cause it means so many different things to everyone- Shea Kidd Brown (37:32): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (37:33): … um, which is beautiful. But for me, it, you know, it’s really a reminder and a charge. And this is something, you know, it’s funny you ask, ’cause this is something I talked about in February in my- Shea Kidd Brown (37:42): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (37:43): … in my student trustee, um, report was as, you know, not only as a student trustee, but just as a student, I have to remember, you know, I’m, I’m given this great opportunity to have this education and make these, um, relationships, build these experiences. And I, when I’m done here, I have to take it in the world and, and do good- Shea Kidd Brown (38:01): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (38:02): … and go and do good with it. And that’s something that I take very seriously as sort of a charge. Um, and, you know, I see myself, I’ll be in the world soon, the real world, and that’s, that’s what I can do with it- Shea Kidd Brown (38:14): Yeah. Stella Ross (38:14): … is take that, that empathy and, you know, humanity side of myself and give it to the world. So. Shea Kidd Brown (38:21): Yeah. That’s, that’s beautiful. And it’s, it’s what makes us all tick in terms of if we’re locked into that- Stella Ross (38:28): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (38:28): … that, um, beautiful motto and, um, living that out. So, there is a lot of chaos in the world, and that’s probably the, always the case because- Stella Ross (38:39): Mm-hmm (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:39): … it’s a complicated place being here on campus, our city, our state, our, um, country, our world. So, as you think about these, you know, only a few, we’re not gonna count because we’re gonna take each day and slow them- Stella Ross (38:53): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (38:53): … down before graduation. But, you know, if you look ahead- Stella Ross (38:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (38:57): … what are you, what are you hopeful about? Stella Ross (39:00): I’m just hopeful about just the new experiences and memories I’ll get to make- Shea Kidd Brown (39:07): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (39:08): … um, for me personally, but also just, you know, as my friends and I get ready to graduate, and even the ones that will stay here. I mean, there’s, there’s just so much, like you said, there’s so much chaos, but there’s also just so much beauty and opportunity and, um, you know, it’s, it’s a time when there can still be so much change made in the world. And for me, you know, I see that as the next step for me is going to law school. Shea Kidd Brown (39:33): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (39:33): And so building that education and then taking that into the world, that’s really exciting for me because I, you know, I think I’m… Not I think, I am a lifelong learner. Shea Kidd Brown (39:42): (laughs) yeah. Stella Ross (39:42): And so I’m ready to do more of that learning in a different and more focused way. Um, but, you know, and I’m also excited for the fun little moments that I’ll have until I graduate just with my friends, you know. Last night Sydney and I went and got ice cream- Shea Kidd Brown (39:56): (laughs). Stella Ross (39:56): … and I was like, “I’m gonna miss these, you know-” Shea Kidd Brown (39:58): Yeah. Stella Ross (39:58): “… late night ice cream runs,” or just walking on the quad. I had dinner on the Quad on Monday and with my friend Sally and Mary Holland. And, um, I was like, “This is something else I’m gonna miss.” Shea Kidd Brown (40:08): Yeah. Stella Ross (40:08): … because the trees are blooming. It’s just so beautiful. Shea Kidd Brown (40:10): Right. It’s beautiful. Stella Ross (40:11): Um, but, you know, I’m gonna cherish those memories. Shea Kidd Brown (40:15): Mm-hmm. Stella Ross (40:15): And I’m looking forward to really being intentional with that before I leave. Shea Kidd Brown (40:17): Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, it makes you take it all in, um, differently- Stella Ross (40:21): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (40:22): … I think your senior year especially, and your last spring, I mean, your, yes, your last spring. Um, so I am, I’m equally excited. I think, you know, you’re just beginning (laughs), it feels like a chapter is starting to close, but at Wake Forest, it’s really, you know, it’s, may sound a little cliché, but it really is the beginning. That’s why it’s called commencement. Stella Ross (40:42): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (40:42): And here differently than other places that I’ve been, um, your connection as you’ve seen with the trustees and others is, you know, we have a reunion culture. Stella Ross (40:53): Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Shea Kidd Brown (40:53): So, in five years, you’ll be back, every five years. That’s really special. It doesn’t exist everywhere. So, um, and I know given your heart, you know, the things that drive you, things you’re passionate about, you know, you’re, you will continue to keep humanity front and center, and that will continue to make a difference. So, I appreciate who you are today. You know, you’re, you said, “When I get to the real world,” you’re in the real world now. Stella Ross (41:16): That’s true. That’s true (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (41:17): And you’re doing well in it. So, um- Stella Ross (41:20): Thank you, Dr. Shea. Shea Kidd Brown (41:21): … so, I, I’m, you know, it’s such a pleasure to get to know you and work alongside you and I look forward. It’s not over. We got, still have work to do- Stella Ross (41:27): We, we have some time left. Yes, we do. Shea Kidd Brown (41:28): … and some time left. So, thank you for being here today. Stella Ross (41:30): Yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Shea. I really, really enjoyed it. So. Shea Kidd Brown (41:32): Yes, same here. Shea Kidd Brown (41:37): Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed hearing about Stella’s story and her role as Student Trustee. While there are a number of topics to reflect upon, I especially appreciated her reflection on leadership and those lessons that she has learned. We all need to be better at listening and being a silent observer. We all need to take the time to reflect, because time doesn’t slow down, and sometimes we have to slow it down. I also appreciate the reminder that slowing down to see the humanity in one another is something we all need more of. That’s truly what this podcast is about, “Kidd” you not. We all have something to contribute to the world, so let’s keep leaning in. Let’s lean into the hard work and heart work. Thanks so much for listening. Chase Clark (42:26): This episode was produced by Chase Clark and the Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you wanna hear from next time, reach out to us through our socials, using the information in the show’s notes. Thanks for listening to Kidd You Not.

S2| Episode 7: Dr. Shea

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In this special kickoff episode, Dr. Shea reflects on her family’s adoption journey, the importance of a good team, and navigating uncertainty. We hear about her biggest takeaways: appreciating the middle of a journey, learning from change, creating work-life integration, and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and today I’m thrilled to be back for Kidd You Not. For those of you who don’t know, I stepped away for a few months as it relates to the podcast and my role at Wake Forest for a very important reason. My family recently welcomed a baby boy, and it has been such a joy and such a transition, but a good one during those special, special moments. So, today’s episode will be a little bit different because it’s just me and my thoughts. You’ll get to hear about our adoption journey and the things I’ve been thinking of since November when he was born. Thanks for being here. Thanks for celebrating with us, and thanks for listening.

(00:51):

So, as I mentioned in the intro, I have been away for three months. And while I miss my little one, I’m really excited to be back on campus, running into students and connecting with members of my team and reconnecting with projects that really fuel my joy and my energy, um, projects that serve our students. It just has all made my heart beat a little bit faster. So, I’m really glad to be here. Thank you for the warm, warm welcome. And I thought as, as I’m easing back into my role and the podcasting world, it might be nice just to share a little bit about my adoption journey. And that’s a little different. It’s not the day-to-day that those who are part of the Wake Forest community see, but it may shed some light into our humanity, which is what the podcast is all about. Um, so much of what I do is talking to others about their humanity and encouraging them to share their stories. And so I thought listeners might appreciate hearing a little bit about mine. So, it’s going to be a little bit of story time.

(01:59):

Um, so two years ago, this month actually, my husband and I began our adoption journey, and we have been married for four years and thought that this is just something that had been on our hearts. Um, as many know, I have a 16-year-old, and he also has wanted a sibling for a really long time, and we just thought, you know, there’s room in our hearts and in our homes to expand our family. And so with a lot of hope, um, we started this journey. And from the very beginning, we learned that it could be a year from now or tomorrow, (laughs) and that’s kind of the state of mind that we had to live in. And that’s, that’s really hard, I’m just gonna say, to live in that state of mind because if you’re a planner, and, um, for those who aren’t, I wish I had some of that in me because it can be a little bit unsettling not to be able to pin down an exact date, uh, of when your family might grow.

(03:00):

And our agency, we worked with a domestic agency, shared that it is just challenging to pinpoint an exact date, and they disclaimed it could be two years or tomorrow. And so that was kind of, you know, our mantra, a mantra. And that’s dependent, of course, on a lot of different factors. And so, um, we agreed, we buckled up, um, we completed our home study, and, um, if you’re not familiar with adoption processes, that is really a lot of information gathered just to ensure that our minds and hearts are right and that the conditions are, are in the best possible conditions to, um, to grow our family. And so we went through that process from March. It was actually St. Patrick’s Day of ’23 to September when we were officially approved.

(03:58):

And then the waiting began. So, we felt like all along this time, we were, we had started the process, but that was when it officially started. And that was scary for a lot of reasons and on a number of levels. I think the thing that comes to mind for me is maybe surprising, but one of the scary pieces, along with like, you know, a new human in your life (laughs) and what those things can mean, uh, was prof- professionally, uh, for me. So, given the vastness of my role, I really wasn’t sure how the news of my news would be received. And you know, in true Wake Forest fashion, Wake Forest is a deeply relational place. We care about one another and view, you know, the whole person as really being important. And a lot of times, that’s focused on students, as it should be, but I felt that way as a member of this community. I was met with a lot of care and excitement and so much support, so, so much support. I can’t say enough about that. And we had a number of ups and downs and all arounds in the 14 months that encompassed our waiting period.

(05:05):

Um, and I just want to pause for a minute there because it can be really easy. I tend to talk fast in, in general, and it can be easy just to gloss over 14 months. In those moments, there were heartbreaks, there were moments that left us breathless, and also, there was a lot of learning in an adoption process. There’s a lot of education that happens, and I’m really grateful for that education because it positions the birth mother and adoptive children in the center. That should be. Um, a lot of times it can be about us, the adoptive parents, but, um, from a, from a standpoint of you get to see the end in this, you know, seemingly happy story, but there’s a lot of in-betweens, um, that happen. And so, uh, but that doesn’t negate the heartbreak sometimes that we felt during the process. So, I just wanted to unpack that a little bit.

(06:02):

Um, we learned a lot, and we’ll continue to learn a lot. We’re just beginning this journey. But, um, one of the big things that kept coming to mind over and over and over during our 14-month period was that we’re not in control, yet we want it so desperately. We wanted to know when and how and, you know, created a whole bunch of stories about how it might happen. And the truth of the matter is we never have control of anything. Um, at best, we might have an influence. And, um, so that was a lesson that I had to keep learning over and over and over again.

(06:35):

And then I also was reminded of the concept that Brené Brown writes about, that the messiness is in the middle. And so, you know, the beginning is typically pretty defined. The end is clearly defined, but it’s the middle that you learn the most. Uh, you have sometimes the, the groundlessness that comes with that because you don’t know how it will end, yet it’s where all the learning happens. It’s where I learned patience. It’s where I learned to be a good partner, to continue to do good work in supporting students in my day-to-day.

(07:09):

And also, the other thing was that we know it’s going to be okay in the end, yet (laughs) we still, we still worry. And when each of us is going through something hard, we, we know these things, um, yet I think it’s really important to reinforce over and over again. So, if you’re listening and maybe you’re in the middle, um, hopefully some of the things that I share will be helpful and affirming to you.

(07:33):

So, let’s fast-forward. We got the call that our baby boy was already born and that we had been chosen to parent him. And, um, this was with very little warning and very little preparation. Well, I shouldn’t say that. We had prepared quite a bit, but, um, in that moment, we were in different parts of the country at the time and quickly did everything we needed to do to fly, to get on an airplane to meet our other son. And it has been such a journey, um, and we are so grateful.

(08:10):

This season of our lives has been really, really full. It has been affirmation that this is what we needed to do. It’s been humbling. (laughs) Um, if you’ve spent much time with a newborn, there are, there are just all kinds of things that you have to think about when it’s this new human in your life. So, um, I’m just, you can’t see me, but I’m, I’m beaming, um, in that we were chosen to parent this little being and the tremendous responsibility that that holds. You know, I don’t, I don’t take that lightly at all.

(08:47):

So, you know, there are, there are multiple things. I’m, I’m still only a couple months, few months into this, so this is not a, a final list of learning, but there’s some things just based on what I quickly recounted to you that I’ve learned. And, um, I think it’s, some of this is transferable to wherever you are in life and whatever you might be navigating. The first is that it’s okay to actually disconnect. I think it’s okay and it’s good to disconnect.

(09:19):

So, I’ve been away for, I was away from campus for three months and, um, I am plugged in (laughs) all the time, probably the opposite of disconnecting. I am always curious about what’s on students’ minds and how I can be supportive to them. And I have the amazing opportunity each day to lead a Division of Campus Life of close to 300 staff, and you know, we have hundreds and hundreds of student assistants all over our division. And so, and I, I love the proximity that I have to knowing what’s important to them, knowing what’s on their minds. Um, and for me, work is play because I found my purpose. And so the downside of that is sometimes you are just always engaged. And this period of time, you know, really forced me to disconnect and, um, to really refocus my energy somewhere else that I was needed. And it was really good for me.

(10:19):

It was also, um, really powerful in that I didn’t have to worry. A lot of, a lot of people were like, “Can you really disconnect?” And, and the answer’s, yes. I have a great team, and we’ve developed really strong relationships, and I think that’s, you know, that’s an important lesson about leadership that I have to continue to learn over and over again. I’m not saying that I’m perfect in it by any means, but we’ve worked really hard to build a team. And so one of the definitions, there are multiple (laughs) definitions of leadership, but it is the work is not dependent on a single person. And so being able to step away meant someone stepped in, team, was able to lead the division in my absence, and I am very, very grateful for that. So, it is okay, and actually good to disconnect.

(11:05):

The next thing is, is the messiness is in the middle, and I know I’ve already said that, but just elaborating on that a little bit more. For the Wake Forest students that are listening, or maybe you’re college students somewhere else, college is kind of the middle. You’re figuring out everything, and you’re not sure if you’re going to get that internship or the job or the return offer or admittance into grad school, whatever that might be. And in that middle, you’re learning about yourself, and you’re learning about your strengths and your opportunities for growth as I call them. And when you get to that other side, um, you know, it all makes sense. And so just know that that middle portion is where a lot of the learning happens. And um, it’s really important for us not to fast-forward from the beginning to the end.

(11:49):

Um, I also learned that heartbreak and disappointment teach us what’s important to us. Um, we don’t like it, (laughs) you know, we, we don’t like heartbreak. And there were moments in our journey where I just was like, I am not sure if I can still do this. And it teaches you to be caring and empathic. Um- it could also teach you to be bitter. I mean, I think there’s kind of two perspectives that can come out of heartbreak and disappointment. And we really chose to lean into the caring and empathic route because, I don’t know, life has just taught me to see things from a glass half full. And that doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge the hurt that I might feel, but life has taught me that, that heartbreak and disappointment are really part of life. And, um, I want to be someone who can use those as lessons, as giving me perspective, and, um, and it did, um, so I’m, in hindsight, very grateful because I appreciate it more.

(12:55):

The next lesson, I’m… There are a lot of lessons. (laughs) The less- next lesson is that the winding roads lead us to important places. So, I talked about the ups and downs and all arounds, um, kind of in the beginning, and that’s something that I’ve really sat in a lot, um, post our adoption placement. And, um, in fact, I was talking to a senior yesterday, and I just said, “You know, how are you doing?” And that’s a question that I often ask our students, and I don’t say, “How are you?” and I keep walking. No, I, “How are you doing?” and I wait for the answer. And the student was very stressed. They are a senior. And, um, that whole notion, I mean, just mentioned a little while ago about the middle, but they were really stressed about getting a job. And graduation is just a couple of months away. And that, my recent experience helped me to channel hopefully hope and calm.

(13:51):

You know, in our rational brains, we know that Wake Forest in this particular context prepares students to lead lives of meaning and purpose. We know that. It’s a great education and our students come with, with a set of strengths and competencies that we get to help them build upon. Yet, our irrational brains want to know when we’re gonna get the job or want to know when that acceptance letter is going to come. And so, um, our experience was a lot like that. We knew at some point we would take placement, yet not knowing when caused us to worry.

(14:26):

So, if you’re in that place right now, I just want to encourage you that that’s completely normal, first of all, and you’ve done the work, so it’s going to work out. Uh, I encourage you to have people and community, and that’s really what got us through, is being able to talk about it and not let the, the worry and the stress take over. Um, and when we name things out loud, it takes the power away from them a little bit. So, when you say, “I’m really worried,” or, “I’m really scared,” or, “I’m really frustrated,” putting that out there, actually, instead of it just living inside you, deflates that a little bit more, and you realize you’re not alone.

(15:05):

The next lesson is that sleep is important. Not a new idea, I get it. But when you have a newborn, you really learn that. (laughs) So, not having sleep is like, whoo. It can make you not feel like you are able to function. And so my husband and I experienced that certainly in those first few weeks. And I am happy to report that our boy is sleeping very well now. And so we are grateful for that.

(15:34):

Along with sleep, um, structure is important. And you know, for, again, I keep referencing college students because that’s the world I’m in, um, but sometimes we forget like structure and those things that we sometimes don’t make room for in our lives actually make our lives run better and smoother. And it’s also amazing how a newborn needs that too. (laughs) And we need that. So, we needed to know when he was going to be sleeping so that when guests wanted to come, we could say, “Well, he’ll likely be up at these times.” Um, I also knew that when I came back to work, I, I run on a schedule. So, um, he adapted to that very well. We are all sleeping very well now, and we are all grateful. So, students, get some sleep, disconnect. Learn the importance of that now because sometimes you have to unlearn it later in life, um, and that’s, that’s something I’ve had moments of throughout my life that I’ve had to, to learn.

(16:30):

Um, the next thing. And people are really woven throughout everything I’m sharing, but we need people. And that’s not just a separate bullet point. It’s, it needs to be infused in everything. Um, not, probably not a surprise to you that I am an extrovert. And I realized while I was away that I miss those interactions and the opportunity to connect with people, those, those things that just come so naturally with my role. And, um, it was quiet. And so I, I appreciated the visits and the connection to people and was so, so grateful for the support during this period of time. And also, um, support feels a lo- uh, different ways. It’s, it’s emotional. It’s personal. It’s, and in my case, it was also professional and I, I referenced a little bit of that earlier. And so I’m grateful, grateful for my community. We all need people, and sometimes we just forget it. We feel like we have to, you know, do it on our own. And that’s just the reality is no one, um, can really do much of anything without community. So, I’m very grateful for mine.

(17:37):

Another lesson is that I love my job. And that may sound cliché, but I can tell you that it is everything you see, the joy that you see on my social media platforms, and hopefully the joy you see in person is real. And, um, what I do feels like very much a calling. Um, it feels like living in my purpose. And so while I love this little one and the important time that we’ve had together, as I returned back to work, I was really looking forward to work and to being at this place that has become my professional home. Um, and that was an important aha moment for me because I wasn’t dreading coming back. Um, I, I was in my feelings a little bit. I’ll be quite, I’ve been honest the whole time, but you know, the night before I came back, I was a little teary (laughs) because babies grow so fast, and I know this period of time is just going to be gone in a blink of an eye.

(18:39):

And, uh, I wrote a reflective post just the day before I came and, and it said, I can embrace the both/and, and I can miss my baby boy, and I can also love my job. And that brings with it a set of complexities, I think. Sometimes we’re socialized to feel like it’s either or, not both/and, and certainly, you know, work, all of us, whether work looks like coursework in an undergraduate program or graduate program or work looks like a job or grad school or whatever that may be, we’re going to always have things that tug at us. And so this notion of work-life balance, I’ve never been able to achieve. Um, balance meaning, you know, work and life are equal, but there’s pushes and pulls. There’s tugs. So, there’s times where work is really busy. And, um, I integrate my family in that.

(19:28):

Um, my older son has grown up in higher ed, so he’s been able to tag along with me in moments that it’s appropriate. And, uh, I imagine that’ll be the same for our new little guy. Um, and so I, I’ve just really appreciated that I’m returning to work really energized, really refreshed. Higher ed is always complex and the time and space that we live in right now is, is complex. It’s uncertain, yet I am grateful to be back here. And, um, you know, being able to hug students and take selfies with them and connect with my team on what’s going on with them and what goals they have, that’s just brought me a lot of joy.

(20:11):

And then, you know, being able at the end of the day, whenever that ends, to go home and be with my family, um, that’s the integration part of it. Um, and so I’m just so, so grateful that all these pieces have come together. The last lesson for today, and maybe we’ll revisit these lessons as our little one gets older and you know, I’m integrating life with work. As it gets (laughs) more complicated, maybe we’ll revisit this, but the last lesson or the last thing that I want to leave you with is if you have a dream or goal, it was placed inside you for a reason. And I’m going to get a little bit teary-eyed, but just because it doesn’t happen exactly like you want it to happen when you want it to happen, doesn’t mean it’s not supposed to happen. So, I just encourage you to maybe understand that the road may not be easy, but there is so much learning that can happen along the way. And when you finally get to experience that thing, that dream or that goal, it makes you so much more grateful for it.

(21:20):

And the tears that you hear, um, is my gratitude. Um, I could not have written this story, I could not have written the story of growing my family in the way that it grew or the job that I get to come to every day to be, to make a difference in my sphere of influence. And I’m just sitting in gratitude for that. And so if you hear me talk about gratitude, it’s because my life, life has been good to me. Life has not been easy always, but it’s been good. And so, you know, when you get a moment to reflect on your life, you know, just because hiccups happen doesn’t mean it’s bad. Um, it’s our opportunity to really, to really reflect and to think about, um, the learning and the, the hard, but also the things that, that have all made us who we are. So, that’s why I always over and over and over and over again return to story and the power of that because I think we all get to learn over and over again because of whatever lessons that life wants to teach us.

(22:30):

So, those are some things that are on my mind and, um, the spirit in which I’m coming back to this work that I get to do. And so, I appreciate you listening. Um, I appreciate you sitting in this with me and, um, and even, you know, feeling with me as I did not anticipate being emotional, but that’s, that’s never anything for any of us to apologize for. It’s what makes us whole people. So, so thanks for listening. Um, I hope you have a great day and, um, I look forward to hopefully running into you on campus or online, um, if you’re not a part of my day-to-day. Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:15):

Thanks again for listening, and I hope that you connected with some of the things that I shared. We are whole people, and it’s amazing just how quickly we can forget that. Each person we encounter has a story. And these days, I’m thinking about that even more intently, about how I can do my part to make the world kinder and gentler. And I hope that inspires you to do the same. So, will you join me in that? Each of us has something special to contribute to the world. I “Kidd” you not. What a time to lean in to the hard and heart work. Thanks again for listening.

Chase Clark (24:01):

This episode was produced by Chase Clark and the Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear from next time, reach out to us through our socials using the information in the show’s notes. Thanks for listening to Kidd You Not.

S2| Episode 6: Hannah Elluru

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Hannah Elluru, Student Body President of Wake Forest University. We hear about her discovered passion for sociology as the intersection of social justice and politics, her lifelong love of dance, her goals for her tenure in Student Government, and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea and this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:45):

I’m excited to talk with Wake Forest Student Government President today, Jackson Buttler. Jackson’s a senior Politics and International Affairs and Communication double major from Raleigh, North Carolina and began his college semester in the height of COVID-19. He’s someone who looks for what’s going right, though, and has been involved as a student from day one. Much of his experience has included Student Government where he has served on a number of committees and has been engaged in a number of initiatives. I first got to know Jackson when he served on the Sexual Assault Prevention Support and Accountability student task force and assisted with the implementation of the sexual misconduct survey that, collectively, the University implemented. Jackson is a passionate student and I’m so grateful that I get to lead alongside him. Let’s dig into our conversation. Hi Jackson. Welcome.

Jackson Buttler (01:37):

Hi Dr. Shea. Thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:39):

I’m so glad that you’re here and that you agreed to join not even knowing what I’m gonna ask you.

Jackson Buttler (01:45):

Oh, I’m honored to be here.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

Yes.

Jackson Buttler (01:47):

So thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

Absolutely. And we talk a lot regularly about University things-

Jackson Buttler (01:51):

Yes, ma’am, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (01:52):

… for lack of a better word, but today is really just about a conversation about you, and so I’m really excited about this dedicated time-

Jackson Buttler (02:00):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:00):

… that we have to dig a little deeper.

Jackson Buttler (02:04):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:04):

Yeah. So you ready to get started?

Jackson Buttler (02:05):

I’m ready.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Awesome. Well, to get started, I think the best place to start is about home. And this has become a common thread with our podcast. So really, I would love for you to tell me the answer to the question I often ask students, which is where’s home for you?

Jackson Buttler (02:22):

Yeah. Funny enough, that’s actually a little bit of a complicated question. So usually when people ask me that question, I claim Raleigh as my home-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:29):

… because that’s where I graduated from high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:31):

That’s where my family lives now. But I actually grew up in Chicago. I lived in Chicago for about 14, 15 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:36):

I don’t think I knew that.

Jackson Buttler (02:37):

Yeah. So I was born in Wrigleyville, grew up there, moved to the western suburbs, small suburb called Hinsdale. I lived there for about 14, 15 ish years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:45):

I moved to Raleigh two months into my freshman year of high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

Really?

Jackson Buttler (02:48):

So I had two first days of freshman year, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Oh.

Jackson Buttler (02:53):

So I got a little perseverance from that for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:55):

Yeah. How was that?

Jackson Buttler (02:56):

That was a interesting experience for sure. I think for a really long time, I was very excited about my high school in Chicago. I was actually, like, taking the train downtown for school. Like, it was great.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:06):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (03:06):

I was in my adult mode. It was awesome. And then, yeah-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Adult as a 14-year-old?

Jackson Buttler (03:10):

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Yeah, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (03:11):

My parents decided to let me know, uh, (laughs), two months in that we were moving to down south and I did not-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

That’s so hard.

Jackson Buttler (03:17):

… know really what to expect. But I’m very glad I did. I mean it was definitely some culture shock moving-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (03:22):

… down here. Especially during 2016. It was right in the middle of the election, two months in and then I was in a swing state. So, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (03:28):

… my political self was all over that.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

What differences did you see from Chicago versus here?

Jackson Buttler (03:35):

Yeah, I mean I would say culturally it’s different. Don’t think I really knew what to expect.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:41):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (03:42):

I think just southern culture is very different than where I grew up in the Midwest, especially Raleigh. I mean Chicago’s a huge city, third-biggest city in the country and Raleigh is what? Not even top 20. So that was definitely a change. And just people’s interests, and passions, and political leanings and, uh, all sorts of different things. To be honest, I did not, (laughs), like the South when I first got here. I just remember so vividly saying like, “I’m getting out of here for college.”

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:05):

“Like, I’m going back up North.” But I’m very glad I did end up staying here we are now-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (04:10):

… four years later, or however many years later. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

Yeah. So what was it about the South that maybe changed your mind?

Jackson Buttler (04:16):

I’d fallen in love with the South I think for a couple of reasons. Like I said, I am a political being at heart.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

Yeah, you got-

Jackson Buttler (04:21):

That’s definitely where my, (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:23):

Yeah. I wanna hear more.

Jackson Buttler (04:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:24):

So has that always been in your heart? Can you remember, like, how early it was that you were interested in politics?

Jackson Buttler (04:29):

Yeah, I don’t know what it was. I just remember, this is so funny and my mom makes fun of me for this all the time. In middle school, I’d wake up early every Sunday and watch Meet the Press. Would make fun of-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

In middle school?

Jackson Buttler (04:38):

… in middle school. I don’t know what is wrong with me. I don’t know why-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Nothing’s wrong with you, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (04:41):

No, I think it’s too funny. So anyway, and I still watch it every weekend. Like, that’s just my thing, and I don’t know what it is. Regardless, yeah, so being in the state capitol in Raleigh-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:49):

… I had all these opportunities to be super involved in politics.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:52):

And so when I was in high school I went and did… they have a page program here in North Carolina where you can go and work at the General Assembly. Did that for a week. Actually wrote my college essay about that. It was super informative. And then I worked-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:03):

… at the governor’s office for a couple weeks, which I really, really enjoyed. And I think it’s just the South has now really found itself into my heart.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:12):

And I don’t ever see myself leaving, you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

So do you think it was the relationships that you made?

Jackson Buttler (05:17):

I think so.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:17):

And being able to-

Jackson Buttler (05:19):

I would say, yeah. I mean I think relationships, I think southern culture’s totally grown on me. Weather’s not too bad, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

It’s not (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (05:26):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:26):

That’s why, I’m like the opposite of-

Jackson Buttler (05:27):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:28):

… you because I have always said that I always need to live in the South.

Jackson Buttler (05:32):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:32):

I need to see the sun come out. I’m from Hattiesburg, Mississippi.

Jackson Buttler (05:35):

Uh-huh.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:36):

I now live north because I’m in a state called North Carolina.

Jackson Buttler (05:38):

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

So.

Jackson Buttler (05:39):

That’s so funny. But yeah, I would say it’s just got something about it, North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:44):

Got a special place in my heart now being here eight years, which is crazy to say.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (05:47):

But um, we’ll see what happens.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

Yeah. Well, I love that. So growing up, did you have siblings or you’re only child?

Jackson Buttler (05:53):

Yes, I have a younger sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (05:54):

She’s at a fellow ACC school. She’s a Clemson sophomore.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (05:57):

And so all four of my family members, including me, my sister, me, my mom and dad, all big football school people-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:04):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (06:04):

… which is just really funny. My dad went to Notre Dame, my mom went to Michigan, my sister goes to Clemson and here I am at Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

I’m just imagining middle school Jackson watching Meet the Press.

Jackson Buttler (06:13):

Oh, it’s so funny.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:13):

That is really funny. So.

Jackson Buttler (06:14):

it’s a sight to see, for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

So at some point, so you’re 14, moved, had a formative experience and we didn’t talk about how Wake Forest-

Jackson Buttler (06:23):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:23):

… kind of, got in the mix.

Jackson Buttler (06:25):

Okay. So this is another really funny story I like to tell. So when I was touring schools, my mom wanted to do this thing where I would go and buy, like, a $15 t-shirt every school I toured, right? And I didn’t tour very many schools ’cause I was picky. Surprise, surprise.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:37):

I can’t believe that (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (06:40):

Yeah. And so I toured, like, three schools and they’re like, “Yeah, let’s tour this school called Wake Forest.” I was like, “Okay, yeah, yeah, whatever.” So I went and for some reason I did not like the tour. Like, I don’t know what it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

Huh.

Jackson Buttler (06:49):

… I did not like it. I was like, “Mom, I’m not buying the t-shirt. Like, it’s not happening.” My mom was like, “No, you’re going here. Like, I know you will end up here. Like I have-“

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

She already-

Jackson Buttler (06:55):

“… zero…”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

She knew it.

Jackson Buttler (06:56):

Yeah. And I was like, “Well you’re, like, full of it. Like, there’s no way I’m ending up here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:00):

Like, “I am going back up north. I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

So you were still set on that at that point.

Jackson Buttler (07:05):

So set on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (07:06):

And didn’t buy the t-shirt, nothing, like, whatever. So flash forward to a year from then, I’m getting these emails for the summer immersion program.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

So wait, you were, four what… 10th grade? Um, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (07:17):

I toured in sophomore year, 10th grade. It was, like, an hour and a half from Raleigh. So it was a super easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:22):

… drive, whatever. So I’m getting these emails for summer immersion program. They did, they had a politics institute and, like, all this craziness where they brought in, like, former governor, Pat McCrory for these high school students-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:32):

… a class of, like, 20 kids. I was like, “Okay, I’m sold. Like, I’m gonna go.” Ding.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Ding.

Jackson Buttler (07:36):

So I went, loved it, really, really enjoyed it. Lived in South. They did a good job. They sold me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (07:40):

They did what they were supposed to do. They-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Nice.

Jackson Buttler (07:42):

… sold me. Got home literally two weeks later applied E.D., got in a month later-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Are you serious?

Jackson Buttler (07:46):

… was done.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

And changed that fast?

Jackson Buttler (07:48):

Done. Wake Forest, I fell in love with it. Lived here for a week. Did the program, loved my classes, ate at the pit. Like, it was great. Loved it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:55):

So what changed from the tour to-

Jackson Buttler (07:57):

You know what, when I was touring colleges, I don’t think I was thinking about the right things. Every college I toured, I knew I was gonna get a good education, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:03):

But when I came to Wake Forest and I said, “Look at how small these classrooms are.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (08:06):

Like, “What? There’s 20 seats in here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:07):

“Look at who they brought in for these high school students. I can’t even imagine who they’re gonna bring in if I’m a full-time student here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:13):

Not to mention, like, I loved the campus, loved the dorms, I loved all the people that I met and all my friends that I had met on the program were all applying early decision too. And they were like, “We’re all gonna come together. We’re all gonna be friends.” And, like, we all still talk. Like, they all are seniors here with me. You know, not my best friends or anything but, like, still really great people that I keep in touch with. And I always say hi when I see them. And that’s the best part about Wake Forest is-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:33):

That’s amazing.

Jackson Buttler (08:34):

… everyone you walk by seems like you have some, sort of, a connection to, and those are-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:38):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (08:38):

… some of the special people that I have a weird connection with. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Yeah. That’s really good. And I had no idea it sparked from-

Jackson Buttler (08:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

… a summer immersion program. I’ve had a chance to participate in some of those.

Jackson Buttler (08:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:49):

And always wonder about the future Wake Foresters-

Jackson Buttler (08:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

… that might be in the crowd. And so I give the soft hard sell, (laughs)-

Jackson Buttler (08:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

… about just how special it is, and-

Jackson Buttler (08:56):

They sold me.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

So thinking about Wake, what are some of the things that have surprised you since you have been here? Because you started-

Jackson Buttler (09:07):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

… in the height of the pandemic-

Jackson Buttler (09:07):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

… as well. So your first year, we were physically on-

Jackson Buttler (09:09):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

… campus but virtual.

Jackson Buttler (09:10):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

So tell me a little bit about that, ’cause that was before I got here.

Jackson Buttler (09:13):

Right. So I was indeed a COVID freshman. I also-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Is that what you call yourself? (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (09:18):

We do call ourselves COVID Freshman. I was a 2020 grad too, so maybe grad isn’t the right word ’cause I didn’t get a graduation, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (09:21):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:22):

So very excited for my upcoming graduation-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:24):

Absolutely.

Jackson Buttler (09:25):

… and that’ll be my first real one. Regardless, the pandemic shaped me a lot as I’m sure it did for everybody. But… ’cause it’s such a formative time in my life, I was figuring out so much about myself. And mind you, I’d already gotten into school when the world shut down-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:38):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (09:38):

… which was rare because I did E.D. So I was done. None of my friends knew where they were going. Like, it was very uncertain. And so at least I didn’t have that weighing on me.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:45):

But I had a lot going on, especially, like, figuring out my sexuality, figuring out, you know, what I wanted to major and what I wanna do with my future. I mean, like, I was locked in a room for however long, forced to be like, “Okay, so what am I gonna do when I get to school?”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:55):

“Am I going to come out and tell everyone that I’m gay, like, one month into college?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (10:02):

So I had so much time to, kind of, think through that, cope with that. Finally, got to a point where I was like, “Okay, you know what? Like, I’m gonna be who I’m gonna be. I’m really happy with this decision. I’m gonna do it.” This is the funniest story ever by the way. Two weeks before I, I moved in, Wake made us all do this spit test, right. And so we spit in the tube, and this was when COVID was really bad.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (10:19):

And so it was really hard to get a test.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:20):

Saliva testing-

Jackson Buttler (10:21):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

… that’s what that was called.

Jackson Buttler (10:22):

Yes. And yes. And so we shipped all the tests off whatever. And I was like, “I know my luck, I just know it’s gonna be positive.” And so… Oh, mind you, like, probably most important is this part of the story, we’re driving to go dorm shopping. And I was like, “Okay, you know what? I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna tell my mom.”

(10:35):

So I told my mom, we’re in the car, like, this super sentimental conversation. I’m like, “Yeah mom. Like, I’m gay. Like, I wanna tell you this two weeks before I moved into college. I want to go to college being my authentic self. Like, I’m gonna come out and I’m gonna do it.” (laughs), get the email from the lab thing. I was like, “Oh my God, it’s fine.” She’s like, “Just open it. Just open it.” So I open the email, positive for COVID.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Oh, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (10:53):

So that was an emotional day. And my mom’s in healthcare so she’s like, “We’re going to…” She works at Duke. She’s like, “We’re gonna Duke, we’re going to get you a real test.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:59):

Hmm.

Jackson Buttler (10:59):

Of course, it was a false positive. So just like the most-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Oh, wow.

Jackson Buttler (11:01):

… emotional day ever for literally no reason. But I think that’s, like, the most hilarious coming out story ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:06):

Yeah, it is.

Jackson Buttler (11:06):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:07):

… it’s very memorable.

Jackson Buttler (11:07):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:08):

So you said something happened and you just really wanted to come to college-

Jackson Buttler (11:11):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

… to be your authentic self. So what was that something?

Jackson Buttler (11:14):

I think just having sat in my bedroom during COVID, had so much time to think. If it was business as usual, there was no COVID, I had time to just sweep it under the rug and I wouldn’t have thought about it, I don’t know where I’d be today if that didn’t happen. And so, I mean, I view it as, like, kind of, a blessing to be honest with you. So finally, thought about it, came out, came to school. Obviously, I told my dad when I got home too. So like, (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:34):

Yeah, ho was that?

Jackson Buttler (11:34):

… don’t wanna leave that out.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:35):

I imagine you were nervous.

Jackson Buttler (11:37):

I was so nervous.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:38):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (11:38):

So nervous. And, and I have the most fantastic parents and family like ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (11:42):

So anyway, my dad came in, like, full PPE like, ’cause they, they didn’t have the rapid tests, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:46):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (11:46):

So, like, literally told my mom, like, in the car-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

It was a different time, mm-hmm, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (11:49):

It was crazy. Like, literally sitting in my room, like, full, like, mask on, goggles on, like, comes in, he is like, “Hey, like, I heard about what happened. Like, I just wanted you to know, like, I really support you no matter what.” And I was like, “Thanks Dad.” And he didn’t wanna come and get COVID ’cause you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:03):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:03):

… at the time we still thought I had it ’cause the test-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (12:05):

… was still being processed or whatever. There’s so much transition, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (12:07):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (12:08):

So like I just come out to my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (12:09):

I was finally, like, in a place where I was like, “Okay, like, I’m gonna be a more authentic self.” And that was so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (12:13):

… hard for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:14):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:14):

I thought once I told my parents, that would be good. Like, we did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:17):

That would be the hardest part.

Jackson Buttler (12:18):

That would be the hardest part. No, that was not the hardest part. And I thought it would be, and I think coming to Wake, I was just so nervous. And I was so cognizant of wanting to make people like me. And d- I wanted to fit this mold. And I’m sure all the first years right now are going through very similar s- feelings-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:33):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:33):

… because you only do college once, you wanna do it right. And so I put a lot of pressure on myself to make sure, you know, I was like, “Okay, I, I don’t want too many people to know. I don’t want people to judge me.” And then finally I got to the point where I was like, “I can’t anymore….”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:44):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:44):

“… like, if you don’t like me for who I am, then, like, so be it.” And I have not had one negative issue, mind you. So that’s been great.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:50):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:50):

Freshman year was a time of lots of growth for me-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:53):

… not to mention, like, meeting people that are gonna be lifelong friends forever. And my first foray into student government and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:00):

Mmh, you jump right in, you were on the Covid committee.

Jackson Buttler (13:01):

I did, I was.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (13:03):

So yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but that was, yeah, really formative and great experience for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (13:08):

And it still is to this day. I’ve loved, loved, loved my classes, and my academics here at Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (13:14):

But nothing compares to what I’ve learned being in the positions that I’ve been so lucky to be in, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

It sounds like you’ve learned a lot about yourself.

Jackson Buttler (13:20):

… I’ve learned so much about myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:22):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (13:22):

And I just… I’m so thankful every day to be able to do what I enjoy doing so much. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:27):

Yeah. Well, that’s the beauty of college. I mean, I appreciate you sharing such a significant part of your story, and college is this unique place where, to some degree, you’re starting fresh.

Jackson Buttler (13:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:38):

You know, there may be people you knew or people you met at the summer immersion-

Jackson Buttler (13:43):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:43):

… but to be able to authentically be yourself-

Jackson Buttler (13:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

… unapologetically be yourself. I think many of us are navigating that-

Jackson Buttler (13:50):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:51):

… or have navigated it.

Jackson Buttler (13:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

I know that I did a few years ago as an undergraduate, (laughs), student.

Jackson Buttler (13:55):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:55):

And I think that message that you said, you know, for first years who are thinking about that. It’s really important.

Jackson Buttler (13:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

I did wanna ask about similar to what I asked you about your parents-

Jackson Buttler (14:04):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

… while you were here, were there specific things that you felt around the university that you didn’t feel that helped you to be courageous in living out who you are?

Jackson Buttler (14:13):

Yeah. I mean, I think I really struggled between feeling this pressure to join, like, a social fraternity and to be a part of something that I didn’t really wa- I don’t know, I didn’t think I, I really would fit in. And so I, I think that is where a lot of that pressure came from.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (14:28):

And so I was so lucky because I found my people elsewhere, and absolutely, like, no hate to people who go that route. That was just not for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Yeah. Well, and finding your people is so crucial.

Jackson Buttler (14:37):

Oh, 100%. And so I found my people elsewhere, and I found my people in places that I did not think I would.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Mmh, like where?

Jackson Buttler (14:44):

Um, like Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:45):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (14:46):

Or, like, the business fraternity. I’m an Alpha Kappa Psi.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:49):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (14:49):

Did not think I would be lucky enough to get into that fraternity, nor I didn’t think I was a big business person ’cause I, I’m not, but it ended up being a really good thing for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:56):

Good.

Jackson Buttler (14:57):

And I just remember before college being like, “I really, really wanna be in Student Government, but I don’t think I’m good enough. I don’t think I deserve this.” And that was just as, like, a first year senator. Like, mind you, now, I’m, like, (laughs), Student Body President, and I still have those feelings.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:10):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (15:10):

But the-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:11):

And I just wanna pause for a second, ’cause you said, “Mind you, I’m Student Body President, and I still have those feelings.”

Jackson Buttler (15:16):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:16):

I mean, I think that’s important for people to hear.

Jackson Buttler (15:18):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:19):

‘Cause they probably assume, like, you walk into a room, and you’re fully confident.

Jackson Buttler (15:23):

Oh yeah, yeah. Imposter syndrome is very much a thing, and definitely something that I think all of us struggle with. Uh, me, especially.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (15:30):

And I didn’t think I would be able to pull off me winning that election. And mind you, it was really funny too, because I won in a runoff by one vote.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:39):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (15:39):

And so for Senator, like, freshman year, first year did not think I would win, I did, and I was shocked.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (15:47):

And so I was like, “Okay, like, this is clearly for me. I love this.” And so I threw my all into it and it gave back.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (15:54):

So, I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

So what are some of the highlights that you’ve experienced? ‘Cause you have the benefit of, you’re not quite finished quite-

Jackson Buttler (16:00):

Not quite.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

… you got some work to do.

Jackson Buttler (16:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

But you’ve got that rear view a little bit.

Jackson Buttler (16:02):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:02):

So what are some of those things that come to mind?

Jackson Buttler (16:04):

So I’m just so honored to be able to have done some of the things that I’ve been able to do. And I think all of it is a testament to the people that saw me and saw potential in me, and fostered that and helped me to grow-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:17):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:18):

… and showed me that because I am certainly was not, and I’m not now, and that I made many a mistake along the way.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:24):

That’s where learning happens.

Jackson Buttler (16:25):

Clearly. And… So I shot my shot when I ran and I won. And so then I really wanted to keep growing in the organization.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:30):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:31):

So I shot my shot again and I applied to be, um, like a cabinet member, a co-chair. And I didn’t get it. This was freshman year, so first year.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:36):

Oh, okay.

Jackson Buttler (16:37):

And I was, kind of, expecting that, whatever. And then Ally, who was the Speaker of the House at the time, who was, like, my biggest mentor ever. I remember she called me and she said, “Hey, I just want you to know, I see so much in you and I really wanna give you the opportunity to have some, sort of, a position of leadership…”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:51):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (16:52):

“… and I wanna let you grow.” And obviously, COVID was still such a huge issue.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:56):

And so she said, you know, “All of our committees are so constantly working on COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID, that they can’t do what they’re supposed to be doing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

What they’re supposed to be doing, like, we were in higher education too.

Jackson Buttler (17:06):

Yeah, seriously.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:06):

I mean, we had to create separate committees-

Jackson Buttler (17:08):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

… because we wanted to still be able to do our jobs. I was at a different university at that time, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (17:13):

Yeah. And so she said me, along with someone, you know, very well, Cate Pitterly-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:17):

… were asked to be the COVID liaisons, what they called us-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (17:21):

… which looking back was just really such a fun time, you know, getting to work with all of these higher level administrators as a first year student was so eye opening to me, learned so, so, so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:32):

What d’you learn?

Jackson Buttler (17:33):

I learned a lot about leading by example.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (17:36):

This is at a time where people didn’t quite care for some of the public health and safety measures that were put in place by government, the state, the university, what have you. And of course, I wanted to go out and be social and be with my friends-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:50):

… but my position was to be the student that’s in charge of handling all the concerns for COVID.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:56):

So I had to lead by example. And so that were a lot of nights in my first year at Wake Forest where I was like, “Dang, how badly do I really wanna go and be with my friends right now, and break all these rules…”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:05):

“… and do all these things, but I can’t.” And I’m glad I didn’t, and I don’t want that to sound, like, I had, like, the worst freshman year and didn’t do anything social ’cause that’s not what happened.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Yeah, but it was a hard time-

Jackson Buttler (18:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

… I mean, for everybody.

Jackson Buttler (18:15):

And I learned how to… something that, you know, I have to do even now, is go into a meeting with administrators or leaders and say, “Hey, this is what’s going on…”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:23):

“… and this is where you got it wrong, or this is where you could be doing things better.” And I think I learned a lot from that. I’m still, kind of, trying to perfect those skills.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:31):

And there’s always room for improvement, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

Yeah, it’s an important skill. Being able to provide a counter narrative-

Jackson Buttler (18:37):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:38):

… or to disagree or-

Jackson Buttler (18:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

… you know, those skills are really important to be able to learn that your first year.

Jackson Buttler (18:43):

Yeah, it was really, really formative-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:44):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:45):

…and I enjoyed it a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:47):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:47):

And so, you know, I got my taste, I enjoyed it.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (18:49):

And so I said, “You know what, like, let’s keep going.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:51):

You enjoyed it in the worst of times.

Jackson Buttler (18:52):

If I could enjoy it in the worst of times-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:53):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:54):

… then, I guess, that bodes well for my future in, in Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:57):

So, you know, I worked my way up in the organization. I was Campus Life Co-Chair, which was great because that was when you first got here.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:02):

And so I got to work with you since your very first weeks here, which I’ve loved.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:07):

Me too.

Jackson Buttler (19:07):

Thanks.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:07):

And, um, another thing too is just Student Government isn’t responsive, right? I mean, something happens on campus. Le- it is the duty of the organization, at least, in my view, to do something about it-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:15):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:15):

… ’cause I’m such a solution oriented person. And so we had this university-wide reckoning on sexual misconduct, interpersonal violence, and I just remember being like, “I need to do something about this…”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:29):

“… like, I need to do something about this.” And Pilar, one of my good friends, I just remember I called her and I was like, “Pilar, like, we need to do something about this.” And then we talked to Ally, and Ally would then become President, wanted to uplift us and say, “Hey, you know, like, this is a great opportunity for you to make some change.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:42):

And going back to the imposter syndrome thing, I felt really guilty for a long time because I felt like I didn’t have the right to be doing that work.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:49):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (19:49):

I felt like I should leave it to people who have had those experiences, and I felt like I should let someone else do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:58):

And that was a process for a long time. And eventually, I brought it up to Pilar and to Ally and they said, like, “Just because you haven’t experienced this does not mean that you aren’t the right person to be doing the work. Sometimes people who have experienced this can’t handle the trauma and bearing to do that…”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (20:12):

“… and the fact that you wanna put yourself in that position and do this difficult work should not be something you feel guilty about.”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:18):

Yeah, and being an advocate sometimes is, or an ally, is your voice may be louder if it’s unexpected.

Jackson Buttler (20:24):

Yeah, yeah, right. And so I learned a lot from that experience, so much from that experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:26):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (20:27):

I hadn’t had much experience in the past with dealing with issues of that magnitude. It was obviously really difficult. And so there was so much change going on, so many things, and I just wanted to get it right. I wanted to get it right so badly. And I was so lucky to have Pilar, kind of, leading the way and credit where credit is due. Pilar did an amazing job, and I’m so thankful to have worked with her. But did the campus climate survey. Helped to get the highest turnout of any piece of institutional research here on campus, which is one of my most proud achievements.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Yeah, we very much appreciate that.

Jackson Buttler (20:57):

Yeah, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

It was great to partner with you.

Jackson Buttler (20:58):

Yes, it was. And so learned a lot about that and then ran for Speaker, and did the Speaker thing for a year. Loved that. Learned a lot from that. And then that was, kind of, like, President-in-training-wheels-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (21:08):

… and ran for President. Here we are. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:10):

Yeah, I love that you mentioned Ally early on in your formative experiences and Student Body President, and then Pilar became Student Body President. Now you have become Student Body President, and it was my first interaction with you was-

Jackson Buttler (21:24):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

… getting the climate survey off the ground.

Jackson Buttler (21:27):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

And even getting it implemented and sharing the findings.

Jackson Buttler (21:30):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:30):

And that was a real gift-

Jackson Buttler (21:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:31):

… to be able to have students to talk to about what’s working, what’s not working, what’s the message? How do we continue this work?

Jackson Buttler (21:37):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:38):

And thanks to your good work, we also have a permanent group of students-

Jackson Buttler (21:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:42):

… who are committed and working with Student Government, and the Office of Wellbeing-

Jackson Buttler (21:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:46):

… as we think about that. So senior year, President. So I wanted to do questions-

Jackson Buttler (21:51):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:51):

… two parter-

Jackson Buttler (21:52):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:52):

… what are you excited about? And then what are the things that make you concerned or worried?

Jackson Buttler (21:56):

Yeah, this is something that I have been working towards for a really long time, and it feels really rewarding to be able to do the job of people that I idolized freshman year.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:08):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (22:09):

And I, like you, am such a relational person. I’m such a communicator.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:13):

I love people. I love talking. I love speaking. And that has been such a gift. I have so enjoyed getting the chance to get up on a podium and talk to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:24):

And to make people feel like their voices are heard.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:28):

And, you know, a kind of, a recurring theme that we’ve talked about is, like, I really like to see a problem and find a solution.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:35):

And, you know, that was COVID, that was interpersonal violence. That was SAPSA and as things come up this year, you know, my wheels are turning. And so it’s been truly, like, such an honor. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:45):

And I think one of my favorite parts, and it’s not something I really thought would be my favorite part, is getting the chance to mentor younger students.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:52):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

And now what Pilar-

Jackson Buttler (22:52):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

… and Ally were to you, you can be for other people.

Jackson Buttler (22:57):

And that just feels like such a gift.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:00):

And it’s something that I would always say to them, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for putting time into me, and developing me as a leader, developing me as a person, because I would not be where I am.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:10):

And they would always just say, “Pay it forward.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:12):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (23:12):

Like, I wanna do this for you so that you will do this for the next person.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:16):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:17):

And, kind of, tangent, but two of my mentors are former Presidents from, one was from 2017, when I was from 2019. And I mean, I get coffee with them every time I go home, or every time I’m up in D.C.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

That’s great.

Jackson Buttler (23:27):

And they are incredible people that have put a lot into me, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:31):

And every time they’ll pay for my coffee and I’ll be like, “Please, like, I… You don’t have to pay for my coffee. You’re on a government salary, like…”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (23:38):

And they’ll be like, “No, just when you’re in my position, just do the same thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:41):

Do it for somebody else.

Jackson Buttler (23:42):

And so that’s been so rewarding, and I’ve really, really enjoyed being able to do that. And I’m excited for our, our first years looking forward to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:50):

But in terms of some of the challenges, you know, like I said earlier, this is a very responsive job. I don’t have to tell you that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:58):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (23:59):

Um, you know, something comes up and you have to solve it. And I’m a person that really enjoys a good challenge.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:03):

And so when something comes up, and thinking through how we’re gonna solve it is something I always have really enjoyed. But I think the biggest challenge for Student Government is… Well, I guess, there’s two, and they’re tied into one another. It is communication, how do we get students to listen to what we’re doing-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:19):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:19):

… to want to be involved in what we’re doing? And then tied into that is getting the buy in.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:23):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (24:23):

So put on these events, we’ll, we’ll put on all this work, and then no one will show up. And I don’t blame you. We’re busy people. I get it. Lots going on on campus, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:30):

On campus, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:31):

But it’s definitely, you know, it’s saddening sometimes when you put all this work into something and then it doesn’t get the turnout that you would have liked, or it doesn’t get the response from the campus community that you would have hoped. And it’s always from a good intentioned place. And it’s always something that we could be doing better. But regardless, we’ve been working really, really hard on the external aspect of Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (24:49):

Last year, was super internally focused, right? So we did all these changes. We created all these new branches, and I got to do that as the Speaker and Pilar was the President. And so I, kind of, helped with that behind the scenes. And Pilar left me with perfectly tied up organization-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (25:03):

… that organized so well. And then I was like, “Okay, so now we have the internal stuff handled and I can help see that to fruition, like, on one side.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:11):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (25:11):

And then there’s the other side, which is like, “Okay, student body, we really need to work on rebuilding those relationships and it’s not anyone’s fault, it’s just…” I think it was a combination of COVID and some contentious elections, and all sorts of things, like, a lack of trust. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:24):

Yeah, and COVID is a big part-

Jackson Buttler (25:25):

Oh, for-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:25):

… I mean, when you just think about how you “do college,” if you could see me, I’m air quoting-

Jackson Buttler (25:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:31):

… and so reengaging the student body around these issues is important.

Jackson Buttler (25:33):

Right. So I think those are the main two. And, obviously, policy wise, I could be here for, you know, all night if you wanna talk about that, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (25:41):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (25:42):

But I think those are obviously very, very important aspects of the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (25:46):

But I think the most important aspect of the job is making sure that people feel heard because I could have these five policy things that I really wanna work on as President, and that’s great. But that wouldn’t be honoring the job that I was elected to do by 5,400 students. And it’s not about me, it’s not about what I want. And if I really wanna do something, and the rest of the student body says, “There’s just something else that’s more important.” Then that’s what’s most important.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:08):

But if they don’t know how to do access to Student Government, or they don’t know what we do. There are 60 students in an organization that really care and wanna make your experience better, then it’s all moot right-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:18):

Mmh, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:18):

… at the end of the day. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:20):

Yeah, so what are y’all thinking about in terms of that communication strategy?

Jackson Buttler (26:23):

Yeah, this is… very excited about this. You asked a great question.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (26:26):

So I’m rolling out this new, I don’t know what to call it still. And it’s gonna be headed up by two amazing, younger students and student government. We’re gonna be called, you know, outreach committee and the outreach committee is gonna be in charge of this new program we’re doing called President’s Corner. And so every month, we’re gonna bring together students from different organizations, depending on what category they’re in, right? So September, we’re gonna do all the religious student organizations, all of their Presidents or leaders. We’re gonna bring them into a room and we’re gonna talk.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:56):

And I’m gonna say, “What’s going on, what concerns can I bring and how can I serve you all better?” Then the next month, we’ll bring in all the student athlete leadership, and then the next month, we’re gonna bring in yada, yada, yada, right? Greek life leadership or, or health and wellbeing leadership. And, and so every month, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (27:10):

… we’ll have these new feedback loops. And then after the fact, I’ll have that relationship. And so someone hopefully, will feel comfortable enough to come to my office that’s in 304, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (27:21):

Um, doors are always open. And come talk to me. And I know it can be intimidating and that’s also why I try to be, like, the least intimidating person, (laughs), ever because I want people to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:31):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (27:31):

… and to be vulnerable with me, and to share what they’re going through so that I can go and bring those concerns that they don’t have to.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:36):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (27:37):

And that sometimes is one of the most difficult parts, is being the advocate. And it’s a skill set that not everyone has, and it’s one that I’m really lucky to have, and I want to be able to do that for people.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (27:50):

I mean, it’s something that I care so deeply about.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:51):

Yeah. Well, and it’s listening.

Jackson Buttler (27:53):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:54):

I mean, it sounds a lot like what you’re hoping to do is listen-

Jackson Buttler (27:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

… and have smaller groups-

Jackson Buttler (27:58):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:59):

… and organized ways to listen. Um, you know, as you’re talking and reflecting back a lot of what I do, it’s one thing to say from the stage, “Come. Send me an email.” (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (28:07):

Right, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Um, but if I’m interacting with someone up close and I say, “Hey, it’s good to see you again…”

Jackson Buttler (28:13):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:13):

“… let’s pull out our calendars right now.”

Jackson Buttler (28:14):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:15):

“Or let’s…” You know, shoot me an email right now.

Jackson Buttler (28:16):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

That way I can work on it. And very similarly-

Jackson Buttler (28:20):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:20):

… I have become very accessible, and want students to have that, and you and I work great in that way, because students may bring a concern to you that I haven’t heard about yet.

Jackson Buttler (28:30):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:30):

And we have a regular meeting where we can talk about those things.

Jackson Buttler (28:33):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

And that’s a, a really important part of leadership. Something I wanna just loop back to, that you said is, “I could have some really great ideas in my head, but then I get them out, (laughs)…” I’m paraphrasing-

Jackson Buttler (28:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:43):

“… and I get them out and that’s not really what students are wanting.”

Jackson Buttler (28:45):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:46):

And I think that’s, um, the essence of leadership-

Jackson Buttler (28:48):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:48):

… whether you’re in higher education, or you’re in politics later in your life.

Jackson Buttler (28:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:53):

Or if you’re a teacher or a nurse, it’s about listening to people.

Jackson Buttler (28:56):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:56):

And we always have a better solution together than we do apart.

Jackson Buttler (29:02):

Right, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:02):

And that’s not necessarily profound or anything we’ve never said, but I think we forget, like, our egos get, (laughs)-

Jackson Buttler (29:07):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:07):

… really engaged in what we wanna do. And so being able to shift and the days that I’m not tuned into what students want, I’ll say, I may text you-

Jackson Buttler (29:18):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:19):

… and you I may talk to other students and say, “Hey, what are you hearing? What do you need?”

Jackson Buttler (29:22):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:22):

Um, so then we can just keep our ear to the ground on what’s most important to students.

Jackson Buttler (29:27):

Yeah, I could not agree more. I think that is truly the most important part of being a leader, is knowing when to not use your voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Mmh. Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (29:36):

And I think that’s something that you have to get better at. Everyone has to get better at.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (29:40):

And I think it’s one thing that I’ve really, really focused on this year-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:42):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (29:43):

… is letting other people do the talking, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:45):

Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (29:45):

As a talker myself, that can be a little difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

And drawing that out in other people.

Jackson Buttler (29:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:48):

I think that’s a thing. Like, you can use your voice, but it’s to ask questions, not to give answers.

Jackson Buttler (29:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:52):

So, we just got real serious, you know?

Jackson Buttler (29:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:55):

There’s a lot of complexity-

Jackson Buttler (29:56):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:56):

… as it relates to Student Government. So how do you unwind? What do you do for fun?

Jackson Buttler (30:02):

That’s a, (laughs), that’s a loaded question.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Do you unwind?

Jackson Buttler (30:03):

Yeah, do I, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Do you pause ever, Jackson?

Jackson Buttler (30:07):

Yeah, (laughs). Yeah, it’s okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:07):

I know I’ve told you, “Hey, you could pause.” (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (30:11):

(laughs), yeah, you would not be the first, and I’m sure you’re not gonna be the last either. But, I mean, I think this year too, especially, is, like, a time that I’ve really had to prioritize me.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:19):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:20):

And I’m really not good at putting boundaries up.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:23):

And I’ve had to do that this year. And it’s been, I think, one of the best parts of the job is making me do things that are, are difficult, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (30:30):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:30):

And being able to tell people no. And having a support system of people that, A) will tell me, “Jackson, stop. Like, this is not a good idea.” Or people that’ll be like, “Okay, no more work tonight…”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:40):

“… like, let’s do something fun.” But with that, I mean, I know you talk about this, you work out every morning. I mean, like, so do I.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:45):

Like, that is, like, I’m not a morning person though, mind you, I’m a night.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

Yeah, well, I work in early in the morning-

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

… schedule emails and I work out.

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

There you go.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

Yes,. (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

I’m a night workout person ’cause I’m crazy, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

(laughs) yes.

Jackson Buttler (30:56):

Working out, journaling, shameless plug for the UCC, have been going there since my freshman year, therapy, so important. And you know, just knowing when to, like, laugh and knowing when to have fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:06):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:07):

And I think anyone that knows me and my leadership style will know that, like, yes, when it’s time to get serious, we’re gonna get serious, but it’s also, like, not that serious all the time-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:14):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:14):

… and we can have fun and we can make jokes. And I think that’s, like, my best memories of student government have been of us doing goofy things, and just having fun because it’s a serious organization and yeah, we’re relaying concerns and helping to make our campus better place, but I do this because I enjoy it both in an advocacy standpoint, but also from a, like, “These are my friends. These are my….”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (31:35):

“… people that I care about.” And I’ve learned so much from them and they are some of the best people that I’ve met on this campus. And so just-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

So sometimes for you, work is play?

Jackson Buttler (31:44):

Oh yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:45):

I mean, work always is play for me. Like, the way that my brain works, I need to be focused on, like, one thing at a time. And so that’s why, like, my one thing for these past four years, (laughs), has been Student Government. And so I’ve put my all into it. And so I try and think of fun things to do within that realm-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:00):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:00):

… or genuinely do, like, love this job so much. And I enjoy it where I don’t get burned out doing this because it’s something I love. Not to say, you know, like, sometimes it’s just like, “I need a break.” But it’s different than, you know, reading a bunch of stuff for your classes and you’re just like, “Okay, like, I’m so burned out. I, I don’t wanna do this anymore.”

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (32:16):

Whereas, I get energy from this because it’s something I love so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:19):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:20):

And so I would so much rather be in this position, working super hard, and get tired at the end of the day, then not have the opportunity to do this at all.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:28):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:28):

And so I think that’s, kind of, the way that I look at it.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:31):

That’s when you know your passion-

Jackson Buttler (32:32):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:34):

… and your strengths, and your values align.

Jackson Buttler (32:36):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:36):

… is it could be exhausting and it’s also exhilarating.

Jackson Buttler (32:39):

Yes, clearly.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:40):

What’s your favorite spot on campus?

Jackson Buttler (32:42):

The Student Government Office.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:43):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (32:44):

And a lot of people don’t know that we have an office.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:46):

Other than the Student Government Office, I’m gonna let you get in that plug-

Jackson Buttler (32:50):

Okay, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:50):

… but then I want a place outside of that.

Jackson Buttler (32:51):

Okay. I really love, as it is colloquially known, freshman land. I love that road that goes all the way down in front of Collins, in front of South-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:00):

Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:01):

… in front of Angelou, behind Johnson, and Bostwick, and all of those. I think that is the most beautiful, beautiful part of campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:06):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:06):

I always love, like, going on runs there.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:08):

That is a beautiful too.

Jackson Buttler (33:09):

Yes, so beautiful. So I love that part of campus. There’s not a bad part of this campus. We’re… I’m so lucky to have been able to spend four years here, and this sounds such a, like, plug for Wake Forest. Who doesn’t love the quad, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (33:20):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (33:21):

Like, who doesn’t love that view looking out? Nothing beats, like, a Wake Forest commencement on the quad. So beautiful. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:28):

That’s very true, yeah, I’ve taken the same photo at least a hundred times.

Jackson Buttler (33:31):

Yeah, right, (laughs). Going back, I live in that office. Like, that is my favorite place ever. It’s where all, like, all the memories when I look back in 20 years, and I’m like, “Okay, college, like, that’s what it’s gonna be.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:41):

And it’s not even from a, like, “Oh my gosh, I’m working here all the time.” Like, all of my fun times, like, it’s a perk that, like, I might as well use, right? So, like, I’ll get lunch with my friends, I’ll be like, “Oh, let’s go back and, and eat here.” And it’s just, like, always a place that I am going to have very fond memories of. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

And have you always hung out there, even before you were President?

Jackson Buttler (33:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (33:58):

‘Cause Speaker gets an office too.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (33:59):

So last year, I had one and that was great.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:02):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (34:03):

I was with Pilar all the time and now my Speaker, Michael, is also my roommate and so I’m with him all the time, (laughs). And it’s just like, it’s such a great place. These are all like, my best friends are all… It’s like their home base. And especially because we’re seniors now, we all live off campus. And so it’s like, get in and put our stuff down. And it’s just like our home base for the day.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:18):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (34:18):

So I get to be in and out seeing all my friends all the time. And that’s just, you know, it’s a nice perk, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:22):

Yeah. Well, as we start to close our conversation, there’s a whole lot we could talk about.

Jackson Buttler (34:28):

Yeah, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

I am curious. You talked a lot about your formation as a student-

Jackson Buttler (34:31):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:31):

… your identities, what you’ve learned about yourself, what you’ve learned about others. As students are progressing through-

Jackson Buttler (34:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:39):

… so 1st year, 2nd year, 3rd year, 4th year, you can decide who you want to talk to.

Jackson Buttler (34:41):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

But what advice would you give them as you do your final lap, um, here-

Jackson Buttler (34:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:48):

… what are things that you would want students to know?

Jackson Buttler (34:50):

I would say do the hard things, do the things that you are so petrified to put yourself out there and do because it results in the most profound growth.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:02):

Like, running for President was the hardest thing that I think I have ever done. And yet I am so glad I did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:10):

Whether that’s auditioning for the Banshees, or, like, trying out for a team, or just putting yourself out there, like, do the hard things. If you don’t try, you won’t know. And this is so cliche, but it’s like, you get kicked down, get back up. Like, perseverance is something that has become so ingrained in me because you are gonna get knocked down. I don’t have to tell you that. And if you just keep going and you get back up and you try again, you’re gonna succeed. And I need to tell that to myself all the time. So like, like, I hope people don’t feel, like, I’m preaching to them saying like, “Oh, I have this perfect scenario.” And trust me, I have hard days all the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:44):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:45):

And I have to tell myself those exact same things. Like, just get up and keep going because there are better days ahead.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:52):

Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (35:52):

So that would be my advice. And I think there’s so many opportunities here. There’s so many ways that you can get involved. And I chose to get involved in Student Government. And I decided on a whim to run and one by one vote in my first year at Wake Forest and here I am. So especially for first years, if you are interested in something, do it. That interest is coming from something and you might as well try.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:13):

Yeah, do the hard things.

Jackson Buttler (36:13):

Do the hard things.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:15):

I love it. And it sounds like you’ve always had a community of people supporting you as you do the hard things.

Jackson Buttler (36:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:21):

So I always love to end with hope.

Jackson Buttler (36:23):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:24):

You know, where there’s so much to be hopeful about. So what are you hopeful about? It can be as general and as wide of a lens as you want it to be, but-

Jackson Buttler (36:34):

Mmh, what does give me hope? I think I’ve gotten a lot of hope seeing the new faces of our first years every year. But I’m so hopeful to see what these new first years accomplish. Or, you know, the sophomores that I’ve gotten to work with over the course of the last year, or the juniors. And I’m so hopeful because they are all such incredible people that care so deeply. And I’m sure, you know, Pilar would have said that last year, and Ally hopefully would have said that.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:04):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (37:04):

And that’s the best part about being in college, is that every year, it’s a new makeup of people. And then when you’re finally a senior, and you get to see all three classes below you, it’s like, “Dang, like…”

Shea Kidd Brown (37:18):

(laughs).

Jackson Buttler (37:18):

“… I can’t imagine how people must have looked at me when I was a first year.” I think I thought that I was an adult when I was a first year. I thought I did. I thought I knew everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:28):

We all did at 18, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (37:31):

Le- let me tell you, (laughs), that is not… could not be further from the truth. I mean, I’m just so hopeful and I can’t wait to come back in two years when the current sophomore student is the President and like, see what’s changed.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:43):

Yeah, there’s a lot to be hopeful for and I agree. College is this unique place that changes so often-

Jackson Buttler (37:50):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:50):

… and every year, there’s a new combination and you throw in student study abroad coming in and out of the experience. So there’s a lot to be hopeful about, especially at a place like Wake Forest.

Jackson Buttler (38:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:01):

So I really appreciate you spending time with me and sharing, and it’s such a gift to work alongside you and, um-

Jackson Buttler (38:08):

You as well, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

… I know that there’s lots that you’re gonna accomplish-

Jackson Buttler (38:11):

Oh, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:12):

… in the company of amazing students. And then hopefully I can be a big support and cheerleader along the way, so-

Jackson Buttler (38:17):

And amazing administrators like yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:20):

Oh, thank you.

Jackson Buttler (38:21):

So, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:21):

Well, thank you for spending time today.

Jackson Buttler (38:22):

Thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

Absolutely. Wow. So I hope you took from that conversation as much as I did. I so appreciate my conversation with Jackson Buttler, hearing about his student experience, all the things that he learned. And whether you’re a current student, or a family member, or an administrator, or someone not connected to Wake Forest, I think there’s a lot that can be taken from that conversation.

(38:45):

To do the hard things, to be courageous, to be yourself, and to continue to be hopeful about the days ahead. So, thank you for listening, and I look forward to our next time together. Each of you has something to contribute to the world. I kid you not.

MaryAnna Bailey (39:03):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who leads one of the most important departments on campus, the University Police. Until then, I’m Marianna Bailey, and this was Kid You Not.

S2| Episode 5: Chase Clark

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Chase Clark, president of Wake Forest University’s Black Student Alliance and host of Chase @ Wake. We hear about her journey as the founder of a non-profit, her family’s lessons of love, her passion for community outreach, and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:04):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea and I’m thrilled to introduce today’s guest. Chase Clark is a current junior at Wake Forest, who is studying African American studies and communications, and is on the pre-law track. Chase is a North Carolina native who hails from Colfax. At Wake Forest she is actively engaged in a number of student organizations, including serving as president of the Black Student Alliance. She’s a tour guide ambassador, President’s Aide, and a resident advisor. She also hosts her own podcast, and is the founder of a nonprofit. We have a lot of ground to cover, as you can see. So, let’s begin. So, hello.

Chase Clark (00:45):

Hi. How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (00:46):

Welcome. I’m good, thank you for asking.

Chase Clark (00:48):

I’m glad. Of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:48):

How are you doing?

Chase Clark (00:50):

I’m doing pretty good. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:51):

Well it’s always good to see you.

Chase Clark (00:53):

Good to see you, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:54):

I, some of my guests I’ve, I’m getting to know for the first time-

Chase Clark (00:56):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:57):

… but I’m fortunate to get to know you from the very beginning.

Chase Clark (00:59):

(laughs) Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:00):

And see you just thriving as a student leader, and I’m just so excited that we have a chance just focused time to talk again, and for me to dig into your story ’cause I’ve gotten bits and pieces-

Chase Clark (01:11):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

… along the way. But to dig in, so a familiar place that I always go, you’re probably gonna know what the question is.

Chase Clark (01:17):

I think I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:18):

What is the question? (laughs)

Chase Clark (01:18):

Where is home for you? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:23):

Yes. (laughs) Where is home for you? So, curious where home is-

Chase Clark (01:24):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:25):

… and second part is just what that means to you.

Chase Clark (01:27):

That’s actually a phenomenal question because I was just talking to someone, I think it was Donell Moore from the OPCD.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:32):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (01:34):

And so I said, “Yes, I’m from High Point.” And he says, “Okay, “High Point, what high school?” And so I’m like, “I went to Southwest High School.” And he is like, “Okay.” And so he tells me he’s from Greensboro. So, then I was like, “Okay, wait.”

Shea Kidd Brown (01:43):

(laughs)

Chase Clark (01:44):

So, then you might actually know where I’m from. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

Right.

Chase Clark (01:46):

I told him I’m from Colfax, North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:49):

Oh, I know Colfax.

Chase Clark (01:49):

.. but if you walk around anywhere on campus, usually if you ask someone where I’m from, they’ll either say High Point or Greensboro-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:55):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chase Clark (01:56):

So, usually when someone’s from around the area, I’m like, “Oh, actually you might know-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:01):

I can, I can tell you the real place.

Chase Clark (02:01):

I can tell you the real place now. And then they’re like, “Oh, my gosh. Yeah, Farmer’s Market.” And I’m like, “Yep, that’s me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (02:06):

So really, really, I’m from Colfax, North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:07):

Okay.

Chase Clark (02:08):

… but I do definitely claim both High Point and Greensboro, I’d say both simultaneously-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:12):

Same thing.

Chase Clark (02:13):

… played really big roles in my life, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:14):

Yeah. And you’ve always lived in North Carolina?

Chase Clark (02:16):

I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:16):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (02:17):

I’ve always lived in North Carolina, which has been fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

So, what does home mean to you?

Chase Clark (02:21):

Home has always just been where you feel the most love and support, that physical place of home is in Colfax, but that’s also just where I’ve been so fortunate to have had my family there. I have a younger brother, I have a older sister, both my parents, and that makes up our home. I tend to be the more rambunctious and go with the flow, and free spirited, fly by the seatof their pants person in the family. And so those are pretty accurate. So yes-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (02:46):

… I’m a middle child, so I-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

Yeah, I’m also middle child, so [inaudible 00:02:49]-

Chase Clark (02:48):

Oh, look at that. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:50):

… and I have two brothers.

Chase Clark (02:50):

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

But the unique thing, I don’t think I have the characteristics of a middle child-

Chase Clark (02:55):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:55):

… not that that’s a bad characteristic-

Chase Clark (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

… but we are really far apart in age.

Chase Clark (02:59):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

So, we’re almost like only children-

Chase Clark (03:02):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:02):

… ‘because my older brother’s seven years older-

Chase Clark (03:04):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:05):

… and my younger brother’s 11 and a half years younger.

Chase Clark (03:06):

Wow.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:07):

I’m more of the older sister, even though I’m not the oldest-

Chase Clark (03:11):

Yeah. No.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

I take on that, it is [inaudible 00:03:12]-

Chase Clark (03:13):

We also have a really big gap in our-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Oh, do you?

Chase Clark (03:15):

… siblinghood, too. Yeah. So, my sister’s 30, I’m 20-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:16):

Okay.

Chase Clark (03:17):

… and my brother just turned 15, so we have like (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Oh, so that is-

Chase Clark (03:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Yeah. We, we are similar.

Chase Clark (03:19):

We have a big gap-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (03:22):

… so that’s really cool actually.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:23):

Yeah. But I would have to say I was born a rule follower, so-

Chase Clark (03:28):

Gotcha. And that’s a good thing. And you know what? My mom’s gonna hear this back, and she’s gonna agree with free spiritedness of it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Uh-huh.

Chase Clark (03:32):

… but she’s also gonna say, “Well, no Chase, there’s a lot of times in which I’ve called you a nerd-“

Shea Kidd Brown (03:37):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (03:37):

… “just because you have followed the rules very, very closely.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

Yeah. So, yeah.

Chase Clark (03:41):

So, I can deviate in some ways too. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:42):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. In Colfax, what was childhood like for you?

Chase Clark (03:46):

Ooh. I think about that often. I keep a whole bunch of pictures of myself as a child in my phone just to look at it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:53):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (03:53):

… and be like, “Look how fun.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (03:55):

… “Look how fun and free childhood was.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:58):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (03:58):

It was defined by a lot of, I’ll say love a lot ’cause I think that’s just something-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (04:03):

… that’s very central to our family, and how we choose to like, guide and lead ourselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:08):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (04:08):

Even when my dad just pulled his 12 hour shift, he’s coming home, he’s making dinner-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:13):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (04:13):

… he’s saying, “Hey, what’s up? Do you need help with homework?” And usually if it was math, I totally did.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:17):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (04:18):

It looked like my mom asking me like what I want it to be, but not only in a like, what do you wanna do kind of way-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:25):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (04:25):

… but really asking critical questions about like, “Why do you wanna do these things? What are interesting to you?” And many ways like opening up the door for me to think about what is interesting to me? Why? And then-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:35):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (04:36):

… letting me just explore so many different things. I did a lot of different activities growing up, which I laugh at all the time. I did karate, and I feel like I did it for two days-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (04:46):

… ’cause I just was like, “This isn’t the thing, but-“

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

It was not.

Chase Clark (04:49):

… no, it was not.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Of course. Yeah. (laughs)

Chase Clark (04:51):

And my parents often make jokes about my very short stint in soccer, which I feel like most kids kind of try soccer out-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:57):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (04:57):

… and you know, I didn’t even chase the ball, it was much worse.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Okay.

Chase Clark (05:01):

There’s one picture of me in my soccer jersey, and I’m picking flowers.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:05):

That was gonna be my next question. (laughs)

Chase Clark (05:06):

(laughing)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

Were you the one picking the lil-

Chase Clark (05:08):

… I was the one picking the flowers-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:10):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (05:10):

… and then I get carried off the field by my dad.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

Oh.

Chase Clark (05:13):

But you know, so soccer was also very short-lived-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (05:15):

… but I did dance for a while, and played instruments. So, they were just very like welcoming to all kinds of different ideas. Growing up with my little brother, though we were a little bit further away in age, we’ve always been really close friends. My older sister kind of in a similar way, just being together and being in community with one another-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (05:34):

… so childhood for us to say that it was just defined by like, really radical love and support-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (05:39):

… would be, I think, a big understatement.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

I love that.

Chase Clark (05:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

Well, and I love that you define what that is. Love is this big word, just like home-

Chase Clark (05:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:47):

… is a heavy word.

Chase Clark (05:47):

Very much so.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

So, to be able to talk about intentionality as it relates to hard work-

Chase Clark (05:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:52):

and acts of service, to helping you to be curious to music,

Chase Clark (05:56):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

sounds like a lot of time-

Chase Clark (05:58):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:58):

You guys spent a lot of time together, and-

Chase Clark (05:58):

Very much so.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:01):

Those are things that can’t be bought. Those are things that make a lot of sense when you know you-

Chase Clark (06:04):

(laughing)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

… and like, how thoughtful and creative you are. Given that curiosity and that home of love that you had, what did stick? So, you said a lot of things-

Chase Clark (06:14):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:15):

… were kind of thrown your way.

Chase Clark (06:16):

Yeah. I would say that in hindsight now, you know, I just began to think back about some of the things that, even though I didn’t stick with everything, I could always find like, “Okay, I really like these things.” Out of different activities I would do, I do know that I loved to talk. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:31):

Did you get in trouble-

Chase Clark (06:31):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:31):

… for talking?

Chase Clark (06:33):

A couple times.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:34):

Did you?

Chase Clark (06:34):

Yeah. It paid off. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:35):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (06:36):

So, I love to talk, and I love to make people laugh and to be in community with people, and that’s something that I’ve always really enjoyed.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:43):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (06:43):

So, when I was in the second grade, my longest standing activity, I don’t think I could ever be a, founded my nonprofit, Chase’s Chance.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (06:51):

So, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:51):

You were in the second grade?

Chase Clark (06:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:53):

I didn’t realize that you were that young.

Chase Clark (06:53):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:53):

Wow.

Chase Clark (06:55):

I forget about it myself sometimes too ’cause it’s just super interesting. And I think that kinda goes back to what I was talking about as far as just like, love and support-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (07:04):

… of two parents. And I come to you and I’m like, “I don’t know what this is, really. I don’t know the concept of a nonprofit, but like I wanna do this thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

I wanna do it.

Chase Clark (07:11):

And so they jumped in with both feet, and for it to have lasted as long as it has, and to manifest into the things that it has.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

Mm-hmm. Tell me more about it-

Chase Clark (07:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:20):

… because I was gonna ask you about it and-

Chase Clark (07:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:24):

… it came up just very naturally.

Chase Clark (07:25):

So, it’s a really, I’m gonna use the word funny a lot ’cause I think laughing is important.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

(laughs)

Chase Clark (07:30):

Funny, being funny is important to me. But when I was in the second grade, I remember we did this project. Our teacher came to us and she’s like, “I want us to do a fun exploration of the grossest part of the body.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

The grossest?

Chase Clark (07:42):

The grossest.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:43):

Okay.

Chase Clark (07:43):

So, second-year-old Chase was like, “It’s gonna have to be the mouth-“

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (07:47):

… “nothing’s gonna beat it, it’s just really nasty, I just don’t like it at all.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:50):

You don’t like the mouth?

Chase Clark (07:51):

No. Just wasn’t fun at the time, which is-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:53):

I wish I could see her face. (laughs)

Chase Clark (07:55):

(laughs) It wasn’t a good place for me, which is ironic ’cause later in life I was like, “I totally wanna be a dentist,” so-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:00):

That is funny.

Chase Clark (08:01):

… and my mom has always been a big proponent of, if you’re doing a project, just go above and beyond.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:06):

Make it unbelievably good, be creative-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:09):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:09):

… and do it to your fullest extent. And so when thinking about how I could do this project to the fullest extent, other than making a PowerPoint, and really fun and put animations and fun little clip art on it. She was like, “You know, you know a lot of dentists, why not reach out-“

Shea Kidd Brown (08:22):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (08:22):

… “ask if you can pass out some dental hygiene items to your classmates?”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:26):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:26):

And so that’s what we did. We had a dentist who went to our church, asked her like, “Do you have anything left over?”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:32):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:33):

She was like, “Yeah.” So, I was able to get that connected, pass it out at the end of class. And then I had some of my classmates come back to me and asked if we have anything more.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:42):

So, that afternoon or that week, I went to my parents and I was like, “Okay, let’s just get all the toothbrushes and give them away.” They were like, “Not exactly-“

Shea Kidd Brown (08:49):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (08:50):

… “this is not how this works.” And so I often say that that was like my first real interaction with what like inequality looks like-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:57):

… or economic inequality more specifically.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:59):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (09:00):

And that’s where I began to think about the fact that everyone doesn’t have the same access to things-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (09:04):

… even toothbrushes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Right.

Chase Clark (09:06):

So, from there, all of these things that some of my classmates were beginning to not be able to do, as in going to field trips or not getting the same lunches as me-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (09:16):

… or not having toothbrushes still became very, very apparent. And so going to my parents after that, following up with questions like, “Okay, what do we do now?”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (09:25):

“Like, I don’t have any money,” (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Right. (laughs)

Chase Clark (09:27):

… “what can we do now?” Parents were really, really again supportive in figuring out how can we make this concept, dream, idea something that can be real and tangible. And so it started very, very elementary just as I did, with we would collect different aluminum cans-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (09:44):

… put them in a bag near the back door, and we would just collect them till the bag got full. And then after that I started to find bigger issues that I wanted to address, which at that time was, I just really wanted to make sure that people had school supplies, and were able to go to these field trips.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (10:01):

My mom and my dad were like, “These small grocery bags are not really gonna cut it, it’s not giving you a lot. So, why don’t you just ask the community?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:08):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (10:09):

And that was a really tall ask-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:10):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (10:11):

… for me at that time, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:12):

And how old were you then?

Chase Clark (10:13):

I was still around third grade-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:15):

Okay.

Chase Clark (10:15):

… or so, that’s when I began to go out into, I started with my church community, just asking them, “Hey, all these aluminum cans that you have, just collect them.” And I still look back, and I laugh at it and marvel at it today because it seemed like every Sunday we would just have a porch full-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:31):

Of cans.

Chase Clark (10:32):

… of cans. If a stranger just came into our house and was like, “Why?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

What are you doing? (laughs)

Chase Clark (10:36):

“What is this?” Like, it probably looked very odd to the friends that I had coming over-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:40): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (10:40): … to visit, but we were very intentional about reaching out to the community and asking those- Shea Kidd Brown (10:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (10:44): … people to donate aluminum cans, which they did. Shea Kidd Brown (10:46): All in. Chase Clark (10:47): So, we would take them to a recycling, and then they would give us a couple dollars back- Shea Kidd Brown (10:51): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (10:51): … and then we would just turn it around just like that. And as I continued to grow up and I’d moved schools a lot, about every two years I’d change to a different school. So, I would find new things there- Shea Kidd Brown (11:01): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:01): … and meet new people, and then the need began to grow. And then around sixth grade, I decided that I wanted to become partnered with Make-A-Wish and sponsor a wish, and so that’s when I did my biggest fundraiser ever. After figuring out that sponsoring a wish was about $6,000, I was like, “Okay mom, I don’t think this is gonna work-” Shea Kidd Brown (11:19): We need, we need more than cans. Chase Clark (11:19): We need to do a lot more than cans. So, that was like my first real foray- Shea Kidd Brown (11:23): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:23): … into like major fundraising, and having a cause, and we’re zeroed in on it. Shea Kidd Brown (11:28): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:28): One thing that I’ve always really enjoyed about Chase’s Chance though, is that in the same way that I often jumped around from activity, I wanted it to be something where I didn’t have to focus the scope only on one cause. Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): Yeah. Chase Clark (11:40): I really liked being able to talk to people, see what the issue was- Shea Kidd Brown (11:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (11:44): … and be able to support it. And then as I got a little bit older, I was able to say, okay, a lot of these projects that I’m supporting have a very special attention to young people- Shea Kidd Brown (11:53): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:53): … and the needs of young people, the youth. And it might’ve been a nature of, I was just in those communities, so it was easy to address. But being able to talk to so many young people as a friend and as a nonprofit founder (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (12:05): Yeah. Chase Clark (12:06): … was really, really crucial. And being able to understand that my passion lied in understanding why all youth weren’t able- Shea Kidd Brown (12:12): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:12): … to get the same things, get the same treatment- Shea Kidd Brown (12:15): Yeah. Chase Clark (12:15): … and how that even expanded beyond the classroom- Shea Kidd Brown (12:18): Sure. Chase Clark (12:18): … like how that expanded beyond how you saw yourself. So, Chase’s Chance has been a really amazing project in that it’s taught me a lot about the world. But more than that, I’ve just been very gracious for all the communities that I’ve met- Shea Kidd Brown (12:31): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:31): … and the communities that I’ve made. Shea Kidd Brown (12:32): Yeah. Chase Clark (12:33): And so it’s been really great for that. Shea Kidd Brown (12:34): I love that. So with the wish, what did you end up doing? Chase Clark (12:38): Yeah. So, we ended up raising over the amount, and it was like almost surreal. I remember going to brunch after the end of the, you know, giving year- Shea Kidd Brown (12:47): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:48): … and everyone who sponsored a wish was there. And I remember being there with my mom and my grandparents, my dad, and I think my little brother and my aunt. And having to pinch myself- Shea Kidd Brown (12:58): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:59): … so many times over, like we really did it same way. It also felt really surreal and complicated in my young mind because (laughs) my mom always laughs at me but always been hard to be in those rooms and not be able to have everyone that made that possible with me. Shea Kidd Brown (13:14): Mm-hmm. Happen, happen. Right. What you’ve described is community-based, always. Chase Clark (13:17): Yeah, very much so. Shea Kidd Brown (13:18): Yeah. Chase Clark (13:19): And so I’ve had to learn how to kinda take the community with me- Shea Kidd Brown (13:22): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (13:22): … no matter where I go. And make sure that it’s acknowledged that so many people make a lot of the things that I do possible. And I’m just glad to be kind of like the bridge between the two. Shea Kidd Brown (13:31): Yeah. Chase Clark (13:31): So, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (13:32): That’s incredible. Chase Clark (13:33): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (13:34): Um, I love watching various stories about- Chase Clark (13:37): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (13:37): … wishes and even have been connected to people on social media- Chase Clark (13:42): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (13:42): … who benefited from that. And did you get to meet the person? Chase Clark (13:42): I didn’t get to meet. He was a little boy, but his wish was to go to Disney World- Shea Kidd Brown (13:47): Oh, wow. Chase Clark (13:48): … So, I do remember that, and it was really great. We got a package back with a picture of him- Shea Kidd Brown (13:53): Hmm. Chase Clark (13:53): … and his wish, and he wrote a little note about some of the things that he enjoyed most at Disney World. So, I do have that still. But since then we’ve donated over $300,000 in just support. Shea Kidd Brown (14:05): Wow. Chase Clark (14:06): So, that’s been big community push and drive. And so this year it’s been interesting, and as I’ve been in college, it’s been interesting (laughs) to kind of move- Shea Kidd Brown (14:13): (laughing) Chase Clark (14:14): … at it a little bit more. And as I’ve talked to some students on campus about like, what kind of needs do you have- Shea Kidd Brown (14:19): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (14:20): … as a student? And even some of my friends at other universities, and getting the chance to study abroad taught me a lot about how much that costs. Shea Kidd Brown (14:28): Hmm. (laughs) Chase Clark (14:28): So, these past few years we’ve been really into supporting students with extracurricular opportunities- Shea Kidd Brown (14:34): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (14:34): … making sure that you have what you need when it comes time to go into that job. Shea Kidd Brown (14:38): Yeah. Chase Clark (14:38): A lot of, um, students have been requesting money to put towards professional development clothes, which is one thing I really enjoy about Wake- Shea Kidd Brown (14:44): That is right. Yeah. Chase Clark (14:45): … because this grant is built in. For a lot of students, either they don’t know about that at their own school- Shea Kidd Brown (14:49): Right. Right. Chase Clark (14:50): … or you know, they don’t have that opportunity. So, it’s been great to again, bridge that gap- Shea Kidd Brown (14:54): Right. Chase Clark (14:54): And make sure that they have what they need and feel supported. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:59): So, do you have any visions for what’s next- Chase Clark (15:00): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (15:01): … for Chase’s Chance? Chase Clark (15:02): I think one of my biggest goals as far as Chase’s Chance is concerned, and one thing that I’ve always really hoped that it does, even if I end it tomorrow, is that it just shows people the power of community- Shea Kidd Brown (15:15): Hmm. Chase Clark (15:15): … and that Chase could theoretically be anyone. Shea Kidd Brown (15:18): Sure. Chase Clark (15:18): You could do this, too. I hope more than anything, that it just continues to empower specifically- Shea Kidd Brown (15:22): Hmm. Chase Clark (15:23): … the youth to step out and do what you want to do- Shea Kidd Brown (15:27): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:27): … and do it well, and support others and be in community with others ’cause I think that all of those components really make up a good life- Shea Kidd Brown (15:34): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:35): …. and a good human being. Yeah, I would love to just walk around and give people $20,000 scholarships- Shea Kidd Brown (15:41): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:41): … for the rest of life though- Shea Kidd Brown (15:42): That would be amazing. (laughs) Chase Clark (15:43): Yeah, i- it would. But it’s been really interesting also to balance like fundraising, being a student (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (15:49): Right. Chase Clark (15:49): … running a nonprofit (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (15:49): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:51): … So, that’s kind of interesting to juggle as well. Shea Kidd Brown (15:53): Yeah. I have lots of questions about that. (laughs) Chase Clark (15:53): Yeah. Okay. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (15:56): So, so let’s start with Wake. You talked a lot about your childhood and your nonprofit- Chase Clark (16:01): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:02): … and just started to dabble into balance. Chase Clark (16:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:05): So, tell me about your decision to choose Wake Forest- Chase Clark (16:08): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:08): … it’s not super far away. Chase Clark (16:10): Yeah. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (16:10): … uh, from home, but can feel like a world away- Chase Clark (16:13): Definitely. Shea Kidd Brown (16:14): … just because of our residential experience. Chase Clark (16:15): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:16): What was that deciding process like for you? Chase Clark (16:19): Mm-hmm. The college process is also something I really pinched myself about because I don’t think that if things went as I initially planned, I would be in some of the places that I am, or even be the person that I am. Shea Kidd Brown (16:33): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (16:33): College was always something that my parents were like, “Okay, this is the one thing, let’s kind of stick with, (laughs) let’s kind of be thinking about it.” And- Shea Kidd Brown (16:39): Right. You’re probably also thinking about that in a second grade, (laughs) that’d be my guess. Chase Clark (16:41): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, from a very young age, I remember wanting to go to college more so from an academic sense- Shea Kidd Brown (16:48): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (16:48): … I’ve always just really liked learning. I won’t say I always loved school as much- Shea Kidd Brown (16:53): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (16:53): … but I loved just the process of learning about things. Shea Kidd Brown (16:55): Sure. Chase Clark (16:56): And so college seemed like a easier, simple- Shea Kidd Brown (16:58): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (16:59): … transition into that, to continue that learning. And so when I started (laughs) my college application process, it was nothing like I thought. In second grade I was kind of like, “Okay, this is a lot. This is applications-” Shea Kidd Brown (17:10): Yeah. Chase Clark (17:10): … “and this is essays, and now we’re wondering about scholarships and money.” Shea Kidd Brown (17:14): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (17:14): “Okay, well, do I wanna be far? Do I wanna be near?” Shea Kidd Brown (17:17): Right. Chase Clark (17:17): And so as much as I really wish that I thought more intentionally about those questions, I totally didn’t. Shea Kidd Brown (17:22): Yeah. Chase Clark (17:23): I told my mom a few things, I said, “I don’t wanna apply to a lot of schools. I don’t know if I wanna be close or far, I just want to go to a good school. And I don’t want to pay a lot of debt, to be quite frank.” Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (17:35): And so I ended up applying to about five schools, most of them in the area with the furthest one being Spelman College in Atlanta- Shea Kidd Brown (17:41): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chase Clark (17:42): … which had been one of my dreams to attend since I was about 10. Shea Kidd Brown (17:45): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (17:46): And so I got into all five, and then I was faced with another hard decision- Shea Kidd Brown (17:50): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (17:51): … so I was like, “Wait, that wasn’t supposed to happen-” Shea Kidd Brown (17:54): Right. Chase Clark (17:54): … (laughs) “I was supposed to just get into the one-” Shea Kidd Brown (17:55): Right. Chase Clark (17:55): … “and just kind of go.” But it was great, I got into all five. And so then came the hard work- Shea Kidd Brown (18:00): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:00): … of figuring out, “Okay, Chase, where do you want to go?” Shea Kidd Brown (18:03): Right. Chase Clark (18:03): I remember going down to Atlanta, Georgia for Spelman’s admitted student day. And walking around, I fell in love with it- Shea Kidd Brown (18:10): Hmm. Chase Clark (18:11): … I was like, “Mom, let’s put down the check now today-” Shea Kidd Brown (18:12): I’m ready. (laughs) Chase Clark (18:13): … “let’s go.” And she was like, “Well, you don’t have your financial aid package yet.” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (18:16): (laughing) Chase Clark (18:17): So, we got that back and that would require a little bit more stretching than I think we were all prepared for. Shea Kidd Brown (18:23): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:23): And so I was like, “Okay, let’s take a step back. Let’s look at what is in front of us.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:27): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:28): Wake was always a very close place. And now again, looking at it in hindsight, I’m like, “Okay, I can see why.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:33): (laughing) Chase Clark (18:34): … “I can see.” Funnily enough when I was much younger, between a doctor and a dentist. Shea Kidd Brown (18:39): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:40): And so my mom enrolled me in a medical camp at Wake Forest Medical School- Shea Kidd Brown (18:44): Oh wow. Chase Clark (18:45): … way long ago. Shea Kidd Brown (18:45): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:46): I must have been middle school, high school-ish. Shea Kidd Brown (18:49): Okay. Chase Clark (18:49): And so I went to that camp, we got through like three days. And then we were on the anesthesiology portion of the camp. Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:57): We were supposed to be cutting something open, and I was like, “I don’t think this is what (laughs) I’m supposed to do anymore, this is really not fun-” Shea Kidd Brown (19:05): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (19:06): … “I do not like this.” Shea Kidd Brown (19:07): And what a gift to learn so early. Chase Clark (19:08): And it was a great gift- Shea Kidd Brown (19:09): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (19:10): … because wow, that was a lot, that was too much. Shea Kidd Brown (19:12): (laughing) Chase Clark (19:12): So, I almost didn’t finish that day, but I got through the camp. And then I ended up getting connected with Wake Forest again through the college launch program- Shea Kidd Brown (19:20): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (19:20): … which I did during COVID. So, about my 10th to 11th-ish grade years. Shea Kidd Brown (19:24): Okay. Chase Clark (19:24): Through that organization, I was able to connect with Thomas Ray, who’s in the admissions office- Shea Kidd Brown (19:29): Yeah. Chase Clark (19:29): … and I remember this one specific session that we had where he talked about, how do you craft your story for your essay? Shea Kidd Brown (19:35): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (19:35): And you know, what kind of things are you looking for in a school? And so when it was time to pick schools, I ended up finding my notes from that day, and it was talking about all the things that Wake had. And my mom had encouraged that I write a list of all the things that I’m kinda looking for, and those kind of perfectly matched. Shea Kidd Brown (19:54): Oh! Chase Clark (19:54): So, then- Shea Kidd Brown (19:54): Your mom, she- Chase Clark (19:55): She’s really smart. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

… she’s on s- on something. Chase Clark (19:56): Yeah, was. And so the financial aid came through and I was like, “Wait, this looks actually like a really great situation.” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (20:02): Hmm. Chase Clark (20:03): So, that’s ultimately how I ended up picking Wake, and so that was a really long journey, but- Shea Kidd Brown (20:08): Yeah. Chase Clark (20:08): … as I look back over life, I’m like, “Okay, that kind of makes a lot of sense.” Shea Kidd Brown (20:11): It all makes sense. Chase Clark (20:12): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): An important part of your journey is also choice- Chase Clark (20:16): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:16): … and having to make hard decisions. Chase Clark (20:19): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:19): A lot of times in life we wanna just put it in front of me- Chase Clark (20:21): Mm-hmm. Right. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): … (laughs) so I don’t have to think, but it sounds like that really forced you to ask the right questions- Chase Clark (20:26): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:27): … and really dig deep in terms of what do I want- Chase Clark (20:30): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:30): … in a college experience? And you’ve made so much of it and it’s not over. But we had coffee, I will never forget- Chase Clark (20:36): (laughs) yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:37): … um, in the ZSR, and you were brand new. So, and at that point you were not declared, but since that time of thinking about anesthesiology and dentistry (laughs)- Chase Clark (20:46): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:46): … your interests have changed a little bit. (laughs) Chase Clark (20:49): (laughs) A lot of ways. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:49): So, talk to me about that. Chase Clark (20:51): Yeah. So, coming in to college, I actually kind of knew at that point one of the things that I wanted to do. I knew for sure that I wanted to major in communications- Shea Kidd Brown (21:01): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:02): … because before coming in, I had actually created a podcast, the Renaissance Project: a Black Girls Movement. And so through that podcast, I just explored my life honestly- Shea Kidd Brown (21:12): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:12): … through the pandemic, all the way up until, I think, about my first couple of weeks of college. And I talked about things that were difficult, what was going well with life. I talked to a bunch of other community members- Shea Kidd Brown (21:23): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:24): … about their stories, and I got to talk to my mom a bunch of times, which was really fun. And my favorite episode from that, was talking to my grandfather- Shea Kidd Brown (21:31): Hmm. Chase Clark (21:31): … about his journey and his experiences- Shea Kidd Brown (21:34): Wow. Chase Clark (21:34): … which I really, really cherish. And so happy at younger Chase for doing that- Shea Kidd Brown (21:38): Yeah. Chase Clark (21:39): … that was good idea, Chase. Shea Kidd Brown (21:40): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:40): After being able to look at the production side of podcasting, getting it to write and create, and just dream up this world and story tell, I was like, “Okay, communications is what I wanna do.” Shea Kidd Brown (21:52): Yeah. And I remember you saying that. (laughs) Chase Clark (21:53): Yeah. (laughs) So- Shea Kidd Brown (21:54): We were connected. Chase Clark (21:55): Yes. So, that’s what I wanted to do, for sure. Shea Kidd Brown (21:57): So, I, I think I mentioned Dr. Steve Giles that day- Chase Clark (22:00): Yeah. Yep, you did. Shea Kidd Brown (22:00): And, yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (22:01): You totally did, that’s right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:02): Yeah. Chase Clark (22:02): So, I knew that for sure. And then I knew at that time I wanted to major in Spanish as well- Shea Kidd Brown (22:08): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (22:08): … I wanted to double major. And the Spanish came from my senior year. I had just the best Spanish teacher ever- Shea Kidd Brown (22:15): Hmm. Chase Clark (22:15): … her name was Ms. Palmer. Even though I wasn’t that confident in Spanish, she was like, “Chase, you need to take my AP Spanish class.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:21): Hmm. Chase Clark (22:22): And she just hounded me until I did. And I was like, “Okay, you know, I’ll take it-” Shea Kidd Brown (22:26): Yeah. Chase Clark (22:26): … “but I’m not promising you that I’m gonna pass that exam, Ms. Palmer.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:29): Right. Chase Clark (22:29): So, I took the class, and I did actually better than I thought- Shea Kidd Brown (22:34): Hmm. Chase Clark (22:35): … and I think a big part of that was just the confidence that she just continuously- Shea Kidd Brown (22:38): Yeah. Chase Clark (22:38): … instilled into me. Shea Kidd Brown (22:40): Teachers are so- Chase Clark (22:41): So- Shea Kidd Brown (22:42): … critical, too. (laughs) Chase Clark (22:43): They really, really are. Shea Kidd Brown (22:44): Yeah. To your belief in, you know- Chase Clark (22:45): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (22:45): … what you can do. Chase Clark (22:46): Yeah. That’s really true. And so right before I came into Wake Forest, I saw that the African American studies program had just started and I was like, “Yes.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:54): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (22:54): … “I will do this for my minor, doesn’t matter what else I do-” Shea Kidd Brown (22:57): Right. Chase Clark (22:58): … “this is what’s gonna stay.” It was almost like a full 360 (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (23:01): Yeah. Chase Clark (23:02): … I was starting to take classes and then I was like, “Okay, wait, I need to change this whole structure around- Shea Kidd Brown (23:07): Hmm. Chase Clark (23:07): … “for African American studies, I just completely fell in love with it.” I had my first class, my introductory class with Professor Walker- Shea Kidd Brown (23:13): I remember. Chase Clark (23:14): … and I was like, “This is it.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:16): This is it. Chase Clark (23:17): … “I love this. Whatever this is- Shea Kidd Brown (23:18): Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (23:18): … “I love all of this.” So, I ended up kinda changing that structure to- Shea Kidd Brown (23:22): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (23:22): … Com, African American studies, minor in Spanish. Shea Kidd Brown (23:25): Yeah. Chase Clark (23:25): And then last year I had a really tough moment because I was beginning to kind of fall out of love with Spanish, not as a language or culture, but just the learning of it- Shea Kidd Brown (23:36): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (23:36): … I was like, “Okay, wait, this is not feeling like it did before.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:39): Yeah. Chase Clark (23:40): … “and I don’t really know what that means.” But I called my mom, I called my dad. My mom was like, “I think you should just stick with it.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:44): (laughing) Chase Clark (23:45): … “you know what I mean? You’ve gone this far, you might as well.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:46): Right. Chase Clark (23:47): But my dad really made me stop for a minute and be like, “Okay, well what if it’s just not what you wanna do anymore, and what if that’s okay?” And I was like, “You know what? That’s true.” So, I took a writing class with Professor Earhart, it was creative nonfiction. So, we read a lot of really amazing essays, and we wrote a lot. And that class I was like, “Okay, wait.” Again. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (24:08): (laughing) Chase Clark (24:08): “All of this is what I wanted, too.” Shea Kidd Brown (24:09): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:10): So, just the act of being able to write again- Shea Kidd Brown (24:13): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (24:13): … like I did for both podcasts before. And I’ve just always really loved writing anyway- Shea Kidd Brown (24:18): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:18): … and so just being able to write and again, be in community with people- Shea Kidd Brown (24:21): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (24:22): … who also really loved to write. And we were kind of just all nerds in that seven-person class, and we were just like- Shea Kidd Brown (24:27): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:27): … “I love what you did here.” Shea Kidd Brown (24:28): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:29): So, doing that was really great. So now (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (24:30): (laughs) Chase Clark (24:32): … a long, long journey, but now I’m a communications and African American studies double major with a minor in writing- Shea Kidd Brown (24:39): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:39): … and they all seem to really work together well. Shea Kidd Brown (24:41): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:41): And I appreciate that. Shea Kidd Brown (24:42): Yeah. That’s really good. Chase Clark (24:43): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:44): And again, it’s journey- Chase Clark (24:45): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:45): … it sounds like that whole thread of curiosity continued- Chase Clark (24:48): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:48): … because this time your mom’s like, “Stick with it.” Chase Clark (24:50): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (24:51): … and your dad saying… I don’t know if you find this, but sometimes we just stick with things because we said we would. Chase Clark (24:55): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:55): You know, as opposed to really asking the question, and being given the permission- Chase Clark (25:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:00): … you know, to have parents who say, “You can pause- Chase Clark (25:03): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:04): … “and really think about it.” And now to be in, I don’t know if you know the concept of flow, like- Chase Clark (25:08): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:09): … that’s when your brain in flow- Chase Clark (25:10): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:11): … probably when you’re writing, you get in this- Chase Clark (25:12): Hmm. Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:13): … concept, and it’s called flow. Chase Clark (25:14): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:15): And so nothing else matters in the world, you can just focus on that. Chase Clark (25:18): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:19): And It sounds like you’ve figured it out. Yeah. You have not strayed much at all from that first conversation we had. Chase Clark (25:25): (laughs) Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:26): So I, I, I remember you beaming. And I said, “Do you have Dr. Walker?” And you said, “Yes.” Chase Clark (25:30): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (25:31): And, so it’s special too, to find that so early- Chase Clark (25:34): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:34): … because I think sometimes we are fixated, we wanna do, and that, once you’re in the classes, you’re like, “Mm, maybe not.” Chase Clark (25:41): (laughs) Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:41): So your gift to be able to find those things so early- Chase Clark (25:44): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:45): … and be able to stick with them. And you still have the skills you’ve learned from Spanish- Chase Clark (25:48): For sure. Shea Kidd Brown (25:49): … but to focus on that. Chase Clark (25:51): African American studies, and I guess I will go back to the childhood question from earlier- Shea Kidd Brown (25:55): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (25:55): … was a really simple decision once I found out that it was something you could study- Shea Kidd Brown (25:58): [inaudible 00:25:59] Yeah. Chase Clark (25:59): … yeah. For all of my younger life, my mom was very insistent that we were gonna go on two trips every single year. We’re gonna go on one fun trip, we’re gonna go on one educational trip- Shea Kidd Brown (26:10): Hmm. Chase Clark (26:10): And so on a lot of those educational trips, it ended up being a lot of, we’re learning Black history. My favorite trip that we went on, we went to Alabama and we went to Birmingham and Selma- Shea Kidd Brown (26:21): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (26:21): … we got to walk across, formerly known as- Shea Kidd Brown (26:23): Pettus Bridge. Chase Clark (26:23): … the Edmund Pettus Bridge, and we got to see the 16th Street Baptist Church- Shea Kidd Brown (26:27): Wow. Chase Clark (26:27): … and sit on the steps. And so I think being able to be exposed to those experiences so early, just like piqued my interest. Shea Kidd Brown (26:34): Sure. Chase Clark (26:34): I tried a lot of different things in a lot of different things, I was like, “Ooh, this is not gonna work.” Shea Kidd Brown (26:39): (laughing) Chase Clark (26:39): … namely political science, just whoa that was- Shea Kidd Brown (26:42): Okay. That was not for you. Chase Clark (26:42): … that was hard. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (26:42): Yeah. Chase Clark (26:44): I, with all respect to political science majors- Shea Kidd Brown (26:45): (laughing) Chase Clark (26:46): … that was really difficult. Shea Kidd Brown (26:47): Really interesting as you describe it, those are things a lot of people read about- Chase Clark (26:50): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:51): and then they may visit. Chase Clark (26:51): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:52): And so to actually visit and then read about it- Chase Clark (26:54): Mm-hmm. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (26:55): … um, and have all those things coalesce- Chase Clark (26:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:57): … is really special. And you’ve been able to meld your academic interests with your personal interests, which is not always possible in college. Chase Clark (27:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (27:05): Like you don’t o- we’re not necessarily vocational- Chase Clark (27:07): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (27:08): … in nature. When we think about colleges, the process of learning- Chase Clark (27:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (27:11): … to then apply that to whatever field- Chase Clark (27:13): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (27:13): … but you’ve been able to do that with your podcast, and I wanna ask you a little bit more about. Chase Clark (27:16): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (27:17): And also we haven’t talked about BSA- Chase Clark (27:19): Oh, yeah. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (27:20): … that you’ve been really involved in the Black Student Alliance- Chase Clark (27:23): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:23): … and president this year. So, talk to me a little bit about that- Chase Clark (27:26): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:27): … and did you join that as a first year student? Chase Clark (27:29): So, I came to some BSA meetings, I came to some events. My love in first year was definitely with Wake Radio- Shea Kidd Brown (27:39): All right. Chase Clark (27:39): … and so I kind of just stuck with my radio station- Shea Kidd Brown (27:42): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (27:42): … and figuring out classes and then balancing the nonprofit- Shea Kidd Brown (27:46): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (27:46): … and the podcast at the time was like, that was just kind of my world- Shea Kidd Brown (27:50): [inaudible 00:27:50], yeah. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (27:50): … Yes. Very much so. And so I do remember though, the day that applications opened for BSA exec, I was sitting with a friend at the time, and I was like, “What if we signed up?” (laughs) And she was like, “Chase, are you gonna do another thing? Shea Kidd Brown (28:05): (laughing) Chase Clark (28:05): And I was like, “Me? I mean, yeah, yeah.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:07): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:08): … “Yeah. Let’s just sign up, let’s just try.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:10): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:10): And so I ended up, uh, running for Secretary unopposed, I think. And so I started as secretary- Shea Kidd Brown (28:18): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:18): … and then after, again, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (28:19): (laughing) Chase Clark (28:20): … community is just a big thing in my life after being- Shea Kidd Brown (28:21): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:21): … around the community, being able to talk to other students who had similar experiences. But not only that, go to the lounge and just like, relax- Shea Kidd Brown (28:30): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:30): … or laugh or have fun, have serious conversations, but also some really unserious ones, too. To have basically like a body of older sisters and older brothers and younger sisters and younger brothers that you can be a family with- Shea Kidd Brown (28:44): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:44): … essentially in this place that, like you were saying, for me, it doesn’t feel too, too far from home, but it can always feel like a different world sometimes. Shea Kidd Brown (28:51): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:52): And so I remember before Janeel graduated, she was the president before me- Shea Kidd Brown (28:57): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:57): … she pulled me to the side, we were at the MLK Day event. And she was like, “Have you ever thought about running for president?” And I was like, “No, Janeel, that-” Shea Kidd Brown (29:05): (laughing) Chase Clark (29:06): … “that hasn’t come up in my mind. No.” [inaudible 00:29:08] (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (29:08): I have a few things going on. Chase Clark (29:09): It was a busy time- Shea Kidd Brown (29:10): Yeah. Chase Clark (29:10): … we had just began the second semester, and I was like, “Mm-mm.” Shea Kidd Brown (29:12): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (29:13): … “No, I haven’t thought about that.” And she was like, “Well, why don’t you?” And I was like- Shea Kidd Brown (29:16): Yeah. I can just see her. Chase Clark (29:17): Yeah. And she’s like- Shea Kidd Brown (29:18):

And she’s convincing. (laughs) Chase Clark (29:18): She really is. Shea Kidd Brown (29:18): (laughing) Chase Clark (29:21): And so I was like, “Eh. I guess, I guess.” Then I guess as I began to watch her and just navigate her presidency- Shea Kidd Brown (29:28): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (29:28): I was like, “Okay, this seems like something I could do.” And then being in exec gave me, I guess, an inside scoop of like what was going on- Shea Kidd Brown (29:36): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (29:36): … in the inner workings of BSA. And so that let me begin to think about some things that I would like to do, implement, see- Shea Kidd Brown (29:43): Yeah. Chase Clark (29:44): … again, talking to people and seeing how they felt about things, what they wanted to do, see. So, then a couple of people had asked- Shea Kidd Brown (29:50): (laughing) Chase Clark (29:51): … and I was like, “Yeah, I guess I can’t fight it anymore-” Shea Kidd Brown (29:52): I’ll do this. Chase Clark (29:52): … “I guess I’ll do it.” But since then it’s been very, very challenging. It’s been a really quick crash course in leadership- Shea Kidd Brown (30:00): Yeah. Tell me more about that. Chase Clark (30:00): … and finances… Yeah. Even looking, I guess I’m not fully in that 20-20 hindsight position now- Shea Kidd Brown (30:06): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (30:07): … but looking at how I came into it, I think that I was confident in the experiences that I had, and how I understood them preparing me for- Shea Kidd Brown (30:16): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (30:16): … leading BSA, but in many ways I began, and BSA was like, “We’re gonna need a completely different set of skills.” (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (30:23): Hmm. Chase Clark (30:24): “We’re gonna need something different. We’re gonna need you to be a lot more organized than you’ve previously been-” Shea Kidd Brown (30:30): Okay. Chase Clark (30:30): … “first of all, we’re gonna need you to be a lot more shepherd of your time-” Shea Kidd Brown (30:33): Mm. Chase Clark (30:33): … “more so than anything else.” Shea Kidd Brown (30:35): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (30:35): (laughs) I think it also took a really big incredible, emotional commitment that I wasn’t necessarily prepared for. I remember at our Black Professional Forum last semester, Janeel was up at the podium, she was giving her closing remarks, and that was one of our like, last events of that year. And she just got emotional- Shea Kidd Brown (30:53): Mm. Chase Clark (30:53): … and I was like, “Oh, it’s gonna be like that?” But I guess I didn’t really understand the level to which it would be like that. Shea Kidd Brown (30:59): Sure. Chase Clark (30:59): And so having a really intimate opportunity to talk to so many people, really great places, and also some really vulnerable ones, too- Shea Kidd Brown (31:08): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (31:09): … almost having the weight of the responsibility of those stories- Shea Kidd Brown (31:11): Mm. Chase Clark (31:12): … it’s been a lot to kind of juggle. Shea Kidd Brown (31:14): To hold. Chase Clark (31:15): To hold. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (31:15): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:16): And to figure out what to do with- Shea Kidd Brown (31:17): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:18): … and how can I actively make a change in this part of the world that I’m taking up right now- Shea Kidd Brown (31:22): Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (31:23): … but I’ve been incredibly grateful for all of the tools and resources that I’ve been given, in people- Shea Kidd Brown (31:29): (laughs) Chase Clark (31:30): … and in reading material. I have a friend from home, his name’s Elijah, he went to Morehouse. And so he’s been the absolute best, he was a really big student leader on their campus as well. Shea Kidd Brown (31:40): Oh, that’s awesome. Chase Clark (31:41): And so whenever I’m having a hard day, I am like, “I don’t know what to do.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:44): (laughing) Chase Clark (31:45): (laughs) And he’s like, “Okay, we’re gonna breathe.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:47): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:48): “I’m gonna send you some reading materials. I’m gonna send you some practice stuff. Let’s just work this out together.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:53): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:53): Knowing that my mom’s always a call away, my dad, they’re leaders in their own right. And then, of course, people on campus like Monique, she’s our advisor. Shea Kidd Brown (32:01): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (32:02): Shauna, she works (laughs) in Student Engagement- Shea Kidd Brown (32:04): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:04): … she’s been a big help, too. She’s asked me a lot of really hard questions- Shea Kidd Brown (32:07): (laughing) Chase Clark (32:07): … which she knows, but they’ve been important questions- Shea Kidd Brown (32:09): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:10): … and most of them are rooted in why are you doing this? Shea Kidd Brown (32:12): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:13): To which I’m usually like, “Shauna, why did you ask me that question?” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (32:16): (laughing) Chase Clark (32:17): But also having really great student leadership on campus to also watch- Shea Kidd Brown (32:20): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:21): … and then of course, some upper leadership, too, that has been really, really helpful. But it’s just been a really big learning experience- Shea Kidd Brown (32:27): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:28): … but if nothing else, it’s taught me that no lesson is too small, and any person can teach you a lesson. Shea Kidd Brown (32:34): That’s true. Chase Clark (32:34): I remember going home, and my brother was like, “Okay, how’s it going?” And I was like, “Oh, it’s kinda difficult.” And he was like, “Why?” And I was explaining to him all kinds of stuff- Shea Kidd Brown (32:42): (laughing) Chase Clark (32:43): … that means nothing to him. And he was like, “Well, have you just tried listening?” And I was like, “Oh.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:47): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (32:48): You know, (laughs) “Mm. I haven’t tried that.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:51): Yeah. Yeah. Chase Clark (32:51): “Let me try that, I’ll go back to the drawing board.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:53): And sometimes… Yeah. And sometimes we just have to be reminded of- Chase Clark (32:54): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:55): … of, of that, or, you know, asking questions. Chase Clark (32:57): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:57): And you know, being in pol- positions of leadership. You do feel that weight of you carrying- Chase Clark (33:03): You do. Shea Kidd Brown (33:04): … whatever it is. Chase Clark (33:05): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:05): So for you and I have talked about belonging and what it’s like to be a student on campus. And I think about my role as creating a student experience that all students matter, belong, and thrive, Chase Clark (33:16): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:16): And it can feel when you have a bold, compelling vision, you, (laughs) you know- Chase Clark (33:20): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (33:21): … have that. And we all, we both know- Chase Clark (33:23): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:24): … that it’s just like you said, nothing with Chase’s Chance has happened without other people- Chase Clark (33:28): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (33:28): … and this is similar. Chase Clark (33:29): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:30): I think just positional leadership, sometimes we can forget that we still need people- Chase Clark (33:33): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:34): … we still need to ask questions, we still need to say, “I’m overwhelmed.” Chase Clark (33:37): Mm-hmm. [inaudible 00:33:38] Shea Kidd Brown (33:38): Just remember, you got lots of people, you have a village. Chase Clark (33:41): I will. I definitely will. Shea Kidd Brown (33:42): Yes. Yeah. Chase Clark (33:42): I’ve had to exercise a village more than ever- Shea Kidd Brown (33:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (33:44): … it’s midterms, and so this was a really big- Shea Kidd Brown (33:47): Yes. Chase Clark (33:47): … like foray into being like, “Okay guys- (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (33:49): Yeah. Chase Clark (33:50): … let’s all slow down, I need some help.” So- Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): That’s right. And just being able to be honest- Chase Clark (33:53): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:54): … what you’re feeling because I think, you could probably have a whole podcast on leadership, but the perception is this person in front has to have all the answers. But really, it is in community- Chase Clark (34:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:05): … and it’s also, people appreciate a person who doesn’t have it all together, (laughs) and just says, “I’m struggling this week-” Chase Clark (34:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:12): … “like, time out. You know, let’s take a pause.” Chase Clark (34:15): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:15): And so that’s a, a leadership lesson that I’ve had to learn. And I’m sure- Chase Clark (34:18): Well, thank you for passing it on. Shea Kidd Brown (34:19): – you, you have had to- Chase Clark (34:20): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:20): … and will as well. Chase Clark (34:21): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:21): But you’re doing a great job, I think- Chase Clark (34:22): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (34:23): … you know, I see you all over campus, you’re an RA- Chase Clark (34:25): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (34:25): … you’re involved in so many things. And efore we talk about that, I do wanna ask you, your role with BSA and others, being an RA, as I just mentioned- Chase Clark (34:34): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:35): … being on the radio station, having a podcast. Chase Clark (34:37): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (34:37): A lot of things point to this notion of community belonging. When you hear people talking to you or when you think about your own experience, what does belonging mean to you? And what do you hope are things that you can be a part of in creating that- Chase Clark (34:52): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:52): … climate around belonging? Chase Clark (34:53): Biggest lesson that I’ve learned from all of those commitments, but also just being a person myself, is just the value of being seen and heard. Shea Kidd Brown (35:05): Hmm. Chase Clark (35:05): Over the summer, I read a book… Actually, he’s coming to campus for the Face to Face- Shea Kidd Brown (35:09): Oh! Chase Clark (35:10): … so and I’m so excited. It was How to Know A Person by David Brooks. Shea Kidd Brown (35:13): Yes. Chase Clark (35:13): And that was a phenomenal book. Shea Kidd Brown (35:16): I have not read it yet, putting it on my list. Chase Clark (35:16): Yes, please do. It was actually one book that Elijah recommended to me- Shea Kidd Brown (35:20): Okay. Chase Clark (35:21): … and so I was like, “Okay, I found it at Target, 20% off.” Shea Kidd Brown (35:23): (laughing) Chase Clark (35:24): Can’t do better than that- Shea Kidd Brown (35:25): Right. Chase Clark (35:25): … so we’re gonna get it, we’re gonna try it. And I don’t think I expected for that book to change my worldview the way that it did. Shea Kidd Brown (35:32): Wow. Chase Clark (35:32): I think that it told me some things that I kind of already knew, but I think it explained it in a way that made the stakes of it much higher in a way- Shea Kidd Brown (35:39): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (35:40): … of listening to someone, but not just to respond- Shea Kidd Brown (35:43): Mm. Chase Clark (35:44): … which I kind of struggle with for sure, because I am definitely my mother’s child, and I like to just say, “Well, you know-” Shea Kidd Brown (35:48): (laughing) Chase Clark (35:49): … “that’s a great idea.” And I just like to kind of act. Come from a, a good place, sometimes people just want you to sit with them- Shea Kidd Brown (35:54): Yeah. And that’s human nature- Chase Clark (35:56): Um- Yeah. For sure. Shea Kidd Brown (35:57): … [inaudible 00:35:57] is to, to reflect back and act and do something- Chase Clark (35:59): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (35:59): … as opposed to just sitting with the information. Chase Clark (36:02): Sitting with the… Right. And then also how to just connect with people. I think that COVID kinda did a disservice in that it really made a lot of us used to disconnection- Shea Kidd Brown (36:11): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:11): … which at that time we had to kinda be a little bit more disconnected. And so thinking about the ways that we can bring people together, and have really great conversations, and create really great culture that people can come together around. Shea Kidd Brown (36:24): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (36:24): And so I think in terms of BSA, one thing that we’ve done really, really well is just talk to people- Shea Kidd Brown (36:30): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (36:31): … and then they know you, and then they’re like, “Okay, I’m just gonna go to this event, if nothing else to support- Shea Kidd Brown (36:35): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:36): … Chase, or Chelsea, or Darcy- Shea Kidd Brown (36:37): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (36:38): … or Taylor, or Cahnerr or, I’m not gonna name the whole exec- Shea Kidd Brown (36:40): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (36:40): … but just to come and be in community with them because they made me feel like I had value- Shea Kidd Brown (36:45): Mm. Chase Clark (36:45): … and I am supposed to be there. Shea Kidd Brown (36:47): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:47): Through being a RA, which has been another interesting thing going from 11 (laughs) residents to 31. Shea Kidd Brown (36:51): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:54): But one thing that a lot of residents have come back to me and said is just like, “I appreciated how you just saw me looking not great that day-” Shea Kidd Brown (37:00): Hmm Chase Clark (37:01): … “And you’ve said, ‘What’s up?’ I didn’t really-” Shea Kidd Brown (37:03): You noticed. Chase Clark (37:03): … You did. Shea Kidd Brown (37:04): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:05): And so that’s taught me a lot about just noticing people- Shea Kidd Brown (37:08): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:08): … taking a little bit of time in your day to just look around- Shea Kidd Brown (37:11): Hmm. Chase Clark (37:12): … check on your people, see how they’re doing. And not just as an obligation- Shea Kidd Brown (37:16): Right. Chase Clark (37:17): … but more so as something that you’re genuinely interested and invested in. And so I think that’s the biggest lesson I’ve got- Shea Kidd Brown (37:22): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:23): … from all of these different extracurricular opportunities, is just how to be a better connector. Shea Kidd Brown (37:30): Hmm. Chase Clark (37:30): How to talk to people well- Shea Kidd Brown (37:32): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:32): … and be in community and relationship with them well. One other lesson- Shea Kidd Brown (37:35): And it’s being mindful- Chase Clark (37:39): Very much so. Shea Kidd Brown (37:39): … of which you described as, didn’t mean to interrupt you. Chase Clark (37:39): No, you’re so fine. Shea Kidd Brown (37:40): Um, but just pausing enough to notice- Chase Clark (37:43): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (37:43): … and when we’re busy or when our heads are down, checking our phones- Chase Clark (37:46): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (37:46): … going from class or to the Pit or whatever, you miss those moments. Yeah. Chase Clark (37:49): You do. Yeah. And they’re very fleeting- Shea Kidd Brown (37:49): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (37:51): … they go very fast. Especially in college, which- Shea Kidd Brown (37:53): (laughing) Chase Clark (37:54): … a couple of years ago I was like, “Oh, when will this be over?” Shea Kidd Brown (37:57): I know, oh! Chase Clark (37:57): … but now I’m like, “Wait, this is almost over.” Shea Kidd Brown (37:59): I know. Chase Clark (38:00): So, having those moments of just break, rest, which give you a lot of opportunity and space to look around and really assess how everyone’s feeling, that’s been great. And then, yeah, I was gonna say, just went to a conversation, and it was a guest speaker that came from, the Center of Recall brought her here. Shea Kidd Brown (38:19): Hmm. Chase Clark (38:20): And she was a producer and she made her own show- Shea Kidd Brown (38:22): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:23): … called Manhunt on Apple TV. Shea Kidd Brown (38:25): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:25): And I asked her, “You know, in your line of work, how have you learned to advocate for yourself, or stand up for yourself-” Shea Kidd Brown (38:32): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:32): … “in those spaces?” And she gave me a, a great answer, and then at the end she was like, “And humor just always seems to help.” Shea Kidd Brown (38:37): (laughing) Chase Clark (38:38): A lot of times, you know, everyone thinks we have a lot of differences, but then you make them laugh- Shea Kidd Brown (38:42): Hmm. Chase Clark (38:42): … and it’s like, wait, we’re actually really similar- Shea Kidd Brown (38:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (38:45): … we both like to laugh and so- Shea Kidd Brown (38:46): That’s true. Chase Clark (38:47): … I’ve always just really loved walking through life and laughing- Shea Kidd Brown (38:49): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:50): … and making it a little bit lighter. And so I think that I’ve learned how much humor and just shared commonalities can just really make a world of difference- Shea Kidd Brown (38:59): Yeah. Chase Clark (38:59): … in how you’re connecting with people and making them feel welcomed. Shea Kidd Brown (39:02): Yeah. That’s good. Chase Clark (39:02): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (39:03): And connection really is just finding those moments- Chase Clark (39:05): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (39:05): Acknowledging you have a different lived experience growing up in Colfax, North Carolina than I do- Chase Clark (39:10): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (39:10): … in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, but as we talk about that, we, we both have a sense of home- Chase Clark (39:14): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (39:15): … we’ve, we’re both actually communication majors. Chase Clark (39:18): Yep. Shea Kidd Brown (39:18): You know, so you start to drill down, two Black women, certainly we have a lived experience that’s shared, but very different. And I know we built that connection that very first time- Chase Clark (39:26): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (39:27): … so that’s really special. Now, I cannot end the podcast before we talk about your podcast. (laughs) Chase Clark (39:32): Okay. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (39:32): So, you know, it is a little nerve-wracking interviewing someone who has their own podcasts. So- Chase Clark (39:38): Oh, I hope not. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (39:39): … I, I’m… Tell me quick, really quick, what your current podcast is, what you focus on, and what you’ve learned from podcasting because I need some tips. (laughs) Chase Clark (39:47): Okay. Well I’ve actually learned a lot from you too, so. Shea Kidd Brown (39:47): Oh, nice. Chase Clark (39:51): My other podcast is called chase @ wake, you can find it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It began as just a way to keep up and document things I was thinking and feeling throughout my collegiate journey. Shea Kidd Brown (40:03): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (40:03): I talk a little bit about changes in college lately, talked a lot about just navigating a space in a PWI- Shea Kidd Brown (40:10): Hmm. Chase Clark (40:11): … and how that can kind of f- feel sometimes. And then I’ve done a couple fun episodes with just friends, just talking about random things- Shea Kidd Brown (40:18): Just life. Chase Clark (40:19): Yeah, just life, which is a lot of what I’m doing anyways. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (40:23): (laughing) Chase Clark (40:23): So, it just happens that we have a mic there, we just laugh a little bit harder. Shea Kidd Brown (40:26): Yeah. And you produce and do everything yourself? Chase Clark (40:28): Yes. So, I write for it, produce it, edit it, upload it. Shea Kidd Brown (40:32): Wow. Chase Clark (40:32): Takes a lot of time- Shea Kidd Brown (40:32): That’s a lot. Chase Clark (40:33): … so I had to take a semester long break. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (40:35): Yeah. Chase Clark (40:36): But I’m excited because I made the decision to come back to it this past week, I actually had- Shea Kidd Brown (40:41): Oh, good. Chase Clark (40:41): … an impromptu tour with a family that came. Shea Kidd Brown (40:43): Okay. Chase Clark (40:44): And they asked me, “You know, what’s your name? What are you doing?” Shea Kidd Brown (40:46): (laughing) Chase Clark (40:47): And I was like, “Hi, I am Chase. I’m a communications major.” And I was doing the whole spiel- Shea Kidd Brown (40:51): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (40:51): … and their daughter who was actually on a tour was like, “Chase from chase @ wake?” And I was like, what? Shea Kidd Brown (40:55): Oh my gosh. Wow! (laughs) Chase Clark (40:58): (laughs) I was like, “Wait, um, yeah, that is me.” And she was like- Shea Kidd Brown (41:00): Oh my gosh. Chase Clark (41:00): … “I heard your podcast.” I was like, “Oh, did you really?” Shea Kidd Brown (41:03): That’s amazing. Chase Clark (41:04): Yes. And I’m a weeping willow, I cry over everything. Shea Kidd Brown (41:06): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (41:07): So, my tears were just forming in my eyes, I was like- Shea Kidd Brown (41:09): Ooh! Chase Clark (41:09): “Oh, okay.” She was like, “Yeah, you stopped making episodes.” I was like, “For you, I’ll get back.” Shea Kidd Brown (41:13): I will start back. Chase Clark (41:13): (laughs) I will go (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (41:13): I mean, isn’t that interesting how life just does- Chase Clark (41:17): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (41:17): … you know, presents these things? Yeah. Chase Clark (41:18): It definitely does. Shea Kidd Brown (41:19): It tells you what you do matters. Yeah. Chase Clark (41:21): Yes. It, it really does. And I needed it that day- Shea Kidd Brown (41:23): You know? Chase Clark (41:23): … so that was really great. And then podcasting is a bit of an expensive thing, but luckily we have the WakerSpace here-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:31): Yes. That’s where we are right now. Chase Clark (41:32): … and has everything set up for you. Shea Kidd Brown (41:33): Yeah. Chase Clark (41:34): It’s great, it’s a great resource. And so a lot of people talk about starting a podcast on campus and I’m like, “You should just start here.” Shea Kidd Brown (41:39): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (41:40): … “it is a great space to be. You have, you know, your soundproof room.” Shea Kidd Brown (41:42): Yeah. Chase Clark (41:42): It’s excellent. If you have a dream or an idea, like write it down, plan it well- Shea Kidd Brown (41:47): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (41:47): …consult some people, but like you can totally do it yourself. Do write notes before. There’s so many times that I started an episode and I was like, “I’m just gonna do this off top.” Mm, mm- Shea Kidd Brown (41:58): (laughs) Chase Clark (41:58): … those have never been published for good reason- Shea Kidd Brown (42:00): (laughs) Yeah. Stream of consciousness. Chase Clark (42:01): Yeah. It was not a great show- Shea Kidd Brown (42:03): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:03): … 40 minutes long- Shea Kidd Brown (42:04): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:04): … with nothing profound being said. Shea Kidd Brown (42:05): Well, I’ll bet- Chase Clark (42:05): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (42:05): I would venture to guess, you are always profound. Chase Clark (42:05): Oh, thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (42:05): So, there’s probably always something there. Chase Clark (42:11): Well, thank you. I appreciate the confidence- Shea Kidd Brown (42:13): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:13): … those won’t be published- Shea Kidd Brown (42:13): (laughing) Chase Clark (42:14): … but, you know. Yeah. And then I would say my last lesson, just learn, do things wrong- Shea Kidd Brown (42:19): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:19): … fail, fail, fail, and try again. Shea Kidd Brown (42:21): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:22): Yeah. We were just talking earlier about making sure you press record- Shea Kidd Brown (42:25): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (42:26): … and I can’t tell you how many times I just haven’t pressed record- Shea Kidd Brown (42:29): I know. It’s- Chase Clark (42:29): … but now I know, you gotta check. Shea Kidd Brown (42:31): It’s, it is such a, for those listening- Chase Clark (42:33): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (42:33): … it is like this nerve-wracking thing- Chase Clark (42:34): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (42:34): … every time you finish you’re like, “Okay, did I get it?” Chase Clark (42:37): Yep. And then, you know, or your mic might not work and then- Shea Kidd Brown (42:39): Yeah, that’s right. Chase Clark (42:40): … you’re with a guest and you’re like, “Okay, I am so sorry-” Shea Kidd Brown (42:42): Yes. Chase Clark (42:43): … “but we have to do this whole thing again.” Shea Kidd Brown (42:44): Yes. I’m watching sound waves as we speak. Chase Clark (42:47): Yep. Exactly. No, I understand completely what you were doing. So- Shea Kidd Brown (42:48): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:48): … just fail, you learn. So next time I’m like, “Okay, we can’t move the mic around.” Shea Kidd Brown (42:52): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:53): And in the same way you advised me at the beginning, you know, you might not wanna put your jewelry on- Shea Kidd Brown (42:56): Don’t touch the table. Chase Clark (42:57): … don’t move it around, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (42:58): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:58): So, those lessons are important. Shea Kidd Brown (43:00): I’m gonna put you on the spot- Chase Clark (43:01): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (43:02): … and ask you, what advice do you have for me- Chase Clark (43:03): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (43:04): … as I continue this podcasting journey? (laughs) Chase Clark (43:07): Ooh, that’s a good question. I would say, just to keep going. I’m in this very short experience in being BSA president- Shea Kidd Brown (43:17): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (43:17): … I have seen how taxing life can come, sometimes be. And so sometimes it’s hard to put all of your, you know, effort and emphasis into passion projects- Shea Kidd Brown (43:25): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (43:25): … ’cause you’re like, “I have so much to do.” Shea Kidd Brown (43:26): To do. Chase Clark (43:28): But realizing and even reflecting back on that experience with that other student the other day, like these conversations, they definitely do have value. And I see how even amongst student bodies, the way that you flex your communications degree- Shea Kidd Brown (43:42): (laughs) Chase Clark (43:43): … and make these intentional spaces for people to come, and have these conversations, and get to sit down with someone who, you know, at other universities you might not get a chance- Shea Kidd Brown (43:52): Hmm. Chase Clark (43:52): … to even see sometimes by nature of their size. And so I think that these are really valuable. I remember going through your list of episodes and I was like, “Oh my gosh, Austin had a episode, I missed it.” Shea Kidd Brown (44:03): Yes. (laughs) Chase Clark (44:03): And so being able to see people that, you know, you’re connected to- Shea Kidd Brown (44:07): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (44:07): … on campus or you know, otherwise it’s just really, really helpful. Shea Kidd Brown (44:11): Well good. Chase Clark (44:12): And so I would say keep going. Shea Kidd Brown (44:12): Keep going. Chase Clark (44:12): Well, I would do that. I’ll remember that. Shea Kidd Brown (44:13): Thank you. Chase Clark (44:15): Especially when you have guests- Shea Kidd Brown (44:17): Yeah. Chase Clark (44:17): … it’s an a intimidating thing, you want people to have a great experience- Shea Kidd Brown (44:19): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (44:21): … you wanna ask the right things. You wanna have some order and structure- Shea Kidd Brown (44:24): Yeah. Chase Clark (44:24): … but you don’t wanna, you know not just go off of what you said instead of like- Shea Kidd Brown (44:28): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (44:28): … and question two, and question three. Shea Kidd Brown (44:29): (laughs) Yeah. So, I will keep going. Chase Clark (44:31): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (44:31): I appreciate that. As we kind of come to a close, you know, you’ve talked about a lot of different pieces of your life, and I really appreciate how generous you’ve been- Chase Clark (44:40): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (44:40): … with sharing your lived experiences, what the podcast is all about. I am curious, how do you stay so grounded? You know, each time I talk with you, you’ve got a lot going on, you have a lot of interests, you’re still that curious second grader, (laughs) you know, just grown up. So, how do you find your sense of peace, grounding, connectedness- Chase Clark (45:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (45:00): … however you wanna think about that? Chase Clark (45:02): I think that I’m very gracious to come from generally very grounded, yet busy people. Shea Kidd Brown (45:08): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (45:08): Both my parents have always been very, very busy, and my extended family as well. So, I got a lot of really early lessons on, okay, this is how you can balance your time well. In growing up and being so busy, I had to learn how to make space and time for myself. Some of those lessons came through a very hard way. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (45:28): Yeah. Chase Clark (45:28): So, you know, in COVID I was like, “Maybe I need a therapist, so maybe I should get a therapist.” Shea Kidd Brown (45:32): Yeah. Chase Clark (45:33): And so that’s been great in having someone to talk to and guide you through, like how to healthily navigate all of these things. Shea Kidd Brown (45:40): It’s so important. Chase Clark (45:41): Very much so. And then I would say another thing that has been very crucial for me is just managing time well- Shea Kidd Brown (45:49): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (45:49): … making sure that I have a planner, doing things that I know are helpful for me, making time for fun, whatever that means for me. Shea Kidd Brown (45:56): Mm-hmm. Laughing. Chase Clark (45:57): Um, laughing a lot. Um, those are like very easy moments of reprieve. And then lastly, prayer and religion- Shea Kidd Brown (46:04): Hmm. Chase Clark (46:04): … has just been really helpful for me as well. Like, I won’t say I’m the most disciplined in my faith- Shea Kidd Brown (46:09): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (46:10): … but I do know that whenever there’s a day where I’m just like, “Ooh, this might not, (laughs) this is gonna be a lot.” Like, it’s very easy for me to just say, “Okay, God, what do we have to do today?” Shea Kidd Brown (46:18): Yeah. Chase Clark (46:19): “We’re gonna get through it today, we’re gonna take it step by step. And just being thankful for, you know, what the day brings.” Again, hindsight is always 20-20- Shea Kidd Brown (46:25): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (46:26): … like we’ve been saying. And so I think that in many ways the proof has been in the pudding that everything’s gonna be fine. Shea Kidd Brown (46:32): Yes. Yeah. Chase Clark (46:32): So, that’s been a, a big lesson that I carry with me wherever I go. Shea Kidd Brown (46:37): That’s great. Well, it’s important lessons for us all- Chase Clark (46:38): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (46:38): … to remember. As your time at Wake starts to grow short- Chase Clark (46:44): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (46:44): … because that’s what happens- Chase Clark (46:44): Yeah. Eventually. Shea Kidd Brown (46:45): … what are things you’re looking forward to? Chase Clark (46:46): Well, I just recently decided that I want to go to law school after this. Shea Kidd Brown (46:50): Exciting. Chase Clark (46:51): So, I’m looking forward to that process. Um, a lot of people have been really, really again, helpful- Shea Kidd Brown (46:56): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (46:56): … in navigating that process and what it’s gonna look like- Shea Kidd Brown (46:59): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:00): … over the next few months. Shea Kidd Brown (47:01): (laughing) Chase Clark (47:01): So, I’m honestly excited for that- Shea Kidd Brown (47:03): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:03): … and what life looks like after Wake too, but while here on campus, I’m just continuing to build community with specifically the underclassmen have been really fun this year. Shea Kidd Brown (47:13): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (47:13): And then people in my class who, I think we came in like right off of COVID- Shea Kidd Brown (47:17): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:17): … so a lot of us are just like, “Do you go here? I’ve never seen you.” Shea Kidd Brown (47:20): (laughs) Yeah. I’ve never seen you before. Chase Clark (47:21): And so it’s been really fun to like meet people in my class that I’ve just like- Shea Kidd Brown (47:25): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:25): … “I follow you on Instagram and LinkedIn- Shea Kidd Brown (47:26): Right. Chase Clark (47:27): … but I’ve never seen you in person, so that’s been fun.” Shea Kidd Brown (47:29): And because so many study abroad- Chase Clark (47:30): Yeah. Yeah. So- Shea Kidd Brown (47:30): … sophomore and junior year, Sometimes you can just say, “You look vaguely familiar.” (laughs) Chase Clark (47:34): Exactly. It’s been fun to run into people- Shea Kidd Brown (47:36): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:36): … that I’m like, “Wow, I know you. Do you wanna get coffee?- Shea Kidd Brown (47:39): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:40): … “like, let’s go talk.” And so I’m looking forward to that. And graduation, even though it’s a year away. Shea Kidd Brown (47:46): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:47): I just think it’ll be fun. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (47:49): Yeah. It will be. And it’s so much to look forward to, so- Chase Clark (47:50): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (47:52): …I’m grateful for this time together. Chase Clark (47:53): Thank you. I am, too. Shea Kidd Brown (47:54): I’m so fortunate to have a job where I just get to build connections, too- Chase Clark (47:58): And that’s awesome. Shea Kidd Brown (47:58): … just like you are doing as a student. So- Chase Clark (48:00): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (48:00): … I appreciate you and our time together. Chase Clark (48:02): Of course, I appreciate you, too. Thank you for the invite. I’ve loved, this is like my first time in front of a mic in a long time- Shea Kidd Brown (48:09): Okay. Chase Clark (48:10): … so, I really do appreciate it. Shea Kidd Brown (48:12): Good. Well, thank you. Chase Clark (48:12): Yeah. Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (48:14): And thank you so much for listening. I always appreciate those who follow along with the podcast. And as I’m processing my conversation with Chase, I’m sure people might debate me on this, but I truly think I have the best job on campus. Chase and so many others are doing good things with so much heart. In a world that’s noisy, it is always great to sit down, lock in, and learn something new. From Chase’s Chance to multiple podcasts, to BSA, to lessons on leadership, my brain is still processing and I’m sure yours is, too. Like Chase, we all have something to contribute to the world, I “Kidd” you not. So, let’s keep leaning into the hard work and heart work. Thanks again for listening. MaryAnna Bailey (49:03): For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey and this was Kidd You Not.

S2| Episode 4: John Currie

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Wake Forest’s Director of Athletics, John Currie. We hear about his lifelong love of North Carolina sports, his interest in history, how he sees his teams as part of his family, and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not! Today, I look forward to talking with someone I work closely with every day. John Currie is vice president and director of athletics at Wake Forest University. A graduate of Wake Forest and a North Carolina native, Currie joined the university as director of athletics during the spring of 2019. John has more than 30 years of experience in the ACC, Big 12, and SEC, and he served as Athletics Director at Kansas State and Tennessee. This year marks his 15th year as a Power Four Athletics Director. He has experienced a tremendous amount of success and was recently named on the Business North Carolina magazine’s Annual Power List.

(00:53):

Currie’s leadership style is one that inspires excellence and warmth. Each person who enters our events, whether members of the home team or our guests, are welcomed with a spirited, “Welcome to Wake Forest!” I look forward to our conversation today.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:10):

Hello.

John Currie (01:10):

Hello.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

Welcome.

John Currie (01:12):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:12):

Thank you for-

John Currie (01:12):

It’s my honor.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:13):

… agreeing to do this. You have the busiest job, I feel like, so it’s a commitment to say yes, so thank you.

John Currie (01:18):

Well, this is the fun part of the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:19):

Yes.

John Currie (01:19):

Being with my colleagues and our students.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:21):

Yes, absolutely. And you and I get to work together a lot, but we don’t really get to talk about John Currie, and his life, and who he is as a person.

John Currie (01:30):

Well, this is a completely unscripted show.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:32):

It is (laughs).

John Currie (01:33):

So, I have no idea what you’re about to ask me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:34):

(laughs) I know.

John Currie (01:34):

So, like, be gentle.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:35):

I will be gentle. Our stories are gentle. They’re uniquely-

John Currie (01:38):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (01:38):

… ours, so that’s really what I wanna talk about, so I hope you’re up for it.

John Currie (01:41):

Let’s go.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

Alright. So, I often like to start with the personal and not get too, too deep, but it’s important. You have a really public persona. A lot of people know your job. A lot of people may even tell you how to do your job from (laughs) time to time, but knowing John Currie as a person, the humanity of you, is really what the goal is today, so I wanna start with something really simple that I ask every guest, is where’s home for you?

John Currie (02:08):

Well, home’s really Winston-Salem now.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:09):

Okay.

John Currie (02:10):

But I grew up in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I was-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:12):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (02:13):

… born in Philadelphia. My father was doing training there, and then he was in the Air Force for a few years, and then we moved to Chapel Hill when I was, uh, three years old. I grew up there, since it was a college town.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:22):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (02:22):

Grew up around college sports. Saw Wake Forest play in 1979. I was a Carolina fan with my dad [inaudible 00:02:28]-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:28):

I’ve heard that.

John Currie (02:29):

And it was a Tangerine Bowl year, and Wake Forest beat North Carolina 24 to 19, and I’ll never forget how mad my father-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

(laughs).

John Currie (02:35):

… was, walked out of Kenan Stadium that night.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:36):

Wow.

John Currie (02:37):

Uh, so I graduated from Chapel Hill Senior High School, back then, when there was only one.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:41):

Okay.

John Currie (02:41):

Now there’s three, in 1989. And, fortunately, sometime in mid to late May, I was accepted off the waiting list to Wake Forest-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:49):

Okay.

John Currie (02:50):

… and came here in 1989.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

Wow. Well, so I wanna unpack that a little bit, so-

John Currie (02:53):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

… grew up in Chapel Hill, avid, I think-

John Currie (02:57):

I would say-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

Uh-

John Currie (02:57):

… obnoxious Carolina fan.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Oh, obnoxious Carolina fans?

John Currie (02:58):

Obnoxious-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

Okay, your-

John Currie (03:00):

… very obnoxious.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

… words-

John Currie (03:00):

Avid and obnoxious.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:03):

… uh, not mine (laughs). What were you like as a young person? Not to say you’re not young now, as you were-

John Currie (03:08):

Probably need to ask-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

… growing up (laughs).

John Currie (03:09):

… my mother or my friends.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

Okay.

John Currie (03:11):

I was active. My parents were separated and then divorced when I was about 10-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Okay.

John Currie (03:15):

… and so that certainly was an impactful thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Sure.

John Currie (03:17):

But also, you know, I think that’s a resilience and adversity type deal, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:21):

… had great parents. My father’s deceased for nine years, and my mother, uh, now lives here in Winston-Salem, which is-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

Right.

John Currie (03:26):

… a really great blessing for us. Uh, yeah, I have a s- sister, Lauren. Uh, later, my dad was remarried, and I have three younger siblings as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:32):

So I’m one of five, I’m the oldest of five-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Wow.

John Currie (03:34):

… so to speak.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Big family.

John Currie (03:35):

Growing up in Chapel Hill, it was a really neat place, because it was really diverse-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:39):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:39):

… growing up in a school system, public school system.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:41):

Sure.

John Currie (03:42):

It was still kind of a village back then, so you knew everybody, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:45):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:45):

… that integration was not that far behind the school system, right? So, you had-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:48):

Right.

John Currie (03:48):

… schoolteachers who had taught in the segregated schools, who-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:51):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:51):

… had come together, and so, I guess I realized that back then, but now, I look back on it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

Yeah-

John Currie (03:55):

… and that’s pretty-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

Significant.

John Currie (03:56):

… impactful, pretty-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:56):

Yeah.

John Currie (03:56):

… significant. And then, Chapel Hill Senior High School was a place where you had these, like, kids of, like, imminent researchers at the triangle universities-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Sure.

John Currie (04:04):

… and RTP, and then you had kids whose parents were the custodians, and so everybody was there together, which-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:09):

… was really wonderful.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Yeah, so do you recall what that was like in terms of growing up in a diverse environment and things that you learned from that experience?

John Currie (04:16):

My childhood was really pretty good, and I mean, I loved sports, and family was active. Both my parents had went to the- gone to the University of North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:24):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:24):

… and so, you know, so we’d go to games, and so that was like an early part of kinda like what you do.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:30):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:30):

You, you go to the games at-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:30):

You support the-

John Currie (04:31):

… at the university, support-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

… local team.

John Currie (04:34):

… the team, and all that kinda stuff, and so I have memories of my father coming home from work, late usually. That apple-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:37):

(laughs).

John Currie (04:38):

… does not fall far from the tree, coming home from work late, and grabbing me, and jumping in the car, and then-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:42):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:42):

… racing over, and parking somewhere on a-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:44):

Right.

John Currie (04:45):

… street, side street, and then running to get into Carmichael Auditorium, and usually, it was after tip-off, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Okay.

John Currie (04:51):

… those are-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

(laughs).

John Currie (04:51):

… early memories and special memories, and so even now, when I see parents and their kids at games, or father-sons, or grandfather and grandson-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:58):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:58):

… I know how special those-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

Yeah.

John Currie (04:59):

… moments are, so seeing those moments and knowing that we help facilitate those moments-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:03):

Right.

John Currie (05:03):

… is a special part of my job.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:05):

Yeah. It’s a core memory, it-

John Currie (05:06):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

… sounds like, growing up like that, and I love that we get to, in the professions that we’ve chosen, incorporate our families. They are very much a part of the community and, and being a part of our jobs, but also being a part of the community. That’s really special. You talked some about your dad coming home late. Just an extension of that question, “Where’s home for you?”, so you had a couple of places that you spent a lot of time, and Winston-Salem is now home. What does home mean to you? What does that whole concept mean to you? I spend a lot of time thinking about that. I think you and I both have our share of trying to create that sense of home, in very different but connected worlds, so curious what that means to you.

John Currie (05:45):

As we do this podcast, you know, you’re the intellectual superior of me, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

Stop (laughs).

John Currie (05:50):

So, so you’re, you’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:50):

That’s not true.

John Currie (05:51):

… once again, like, going into some, like, really deep-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (05:54):

… philosophical thing, and you know, I’m just like, “Where’s the food?”

Shea Kidd Brown (05:55):

(laughs).

John Currie (05:56):

Um (laughs) I’m very basic, and you’re at a very high level, um, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:59):

(laughs).

John Currie (06:00):

I like being around people, and one of the things I learned, my career, had a brief period of time between AD positions where I was doing consulting, and I-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:09):

… I enjoyed that. One of the things I really learned is I love being part of a team.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:12):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:13):

I mean, I was reminded.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:14):

I mean, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:14):

… revealed to me. I mean, being part of a team, I don’t have to lead the team, but being part of the team, and team goals, and team camaraderie, and working together to solve a problem-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:24):

Yeah.

John Currie (06:25):

… I love that.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:25):

Feels like home to you?

John Currie (06:27):

And, and that’s, and that’s a home kinda thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

Yeah.

John Currie (06:28):

Our family, my wife, uh, Mary Lawrence, we’ve been married for 26 years-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:33):

Congratulations.

John Currie (06:34):

… now. And, she has been an incredible friend, soulmate, companion, challenger, wife, great mother to our three children, has been involved in so many ways, but… And this is not just our family. Everybody’s going in a lot of different directions. Everybody has-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

Yeah, but-

John Currie (06:46):

… stress-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

… especially-

John Currie (06:46):

… everybody has different activities, and all that kinda stuff, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

Yeah, I don’t think-

John Currie (06:46):

… but like now-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

… it’s the same (laughs) dynamic-

John Currie (06:50):

… nowadays, like, just being with my family-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Yeah.

John Currie (06:53):

… I really treasure that.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

Yeah, absolutely.

John Currie (06:55):

And, uh, currently, like, two of the greatest joys of my life, our daughter, Mary-Dell, is 15, and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:59):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:00):

… when I get to take Mary-Dell to school-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:01):

… that’s really-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:02):

That’s nice.

John Currie (07:03):

… awesome. I took-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Yeah.

John Currie (07:03):

… her to school this morning.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:04):

Me too.

John Currie (07:04):

And, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

I took my 15-year-old to school.

John Currie (07:06):

And she’s playing field hockey now. She went to [inaudible 00:07:08]-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:07):

Yeah.

John Currie (07:08):

… Field Hockey Camp last year and like-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Nice.

John Currie (07:11):

… literally started playing, and I love watching her play field hockey-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:12):

That’s great.

John Currie (07:13):

… so those family things, that’s what home means to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Yeah.

John Currie (07:15):

But I’m also, Shea, I’m really lucky, because I have been really… the Lord has blessed me with some incredible friend groups.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:22):

I have some really neat friends groups-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:24):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:24):

… that go way back, my friends from Wake. I still have some friends from Chapel Hill. Ironically, one of them, childhood street friends, she lives on the same street as me-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:32):

Now?

John Currie (07:33):

… here in Winston-Salem, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (07:33):

Wow.

John Currie (07:34):

And that was by accident-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:35):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:35):

… so that’s really cool. And I’ve got a, a group of friends that I kinda grew up with in the summertime, that I worked with during the summers in college, up in the mountains in North Carolina- Shea Kidd Brown (07:42): Mm-hmm. John Currie (07:43): … so, I have an abundance of friendships, and I’m blessed for that. Shea Kidd Brown (07:46): I would say, as an adult, it’s hard to have friends sometimes, and to- Shea Kidd Brown (07:51): … sustain those relationships, because of the busyness, and for you, you know, you are generous and saying everyone’s busy, but your schedule, your flying here, there, and everywhere. It’s just the nature of the job, whether you’re supporting one of our many sports, or it’s hiring, it’s personnel, it’s always something. You don’t have a season. And so I think it is special to feel tethered to a group of people who don’t care who you are, they don’t care that you’re AD at Wake Forest. They care very much about the world that you’re in that’s very much changing, but to have that outside of our day-to-day is really special. And I agree. I have my people (laughs) you know? Like- John Currie (08:27): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (08:28): And I can check in, and they can check in on me, and it just keeps me grounded. And I love that we both were able to drive our kids, who are the same age, same grade, to school. John Currie (08:37): That’s one of the benefits of living in Winston-Salem- Shea Kidd Brown (08:38): It is. John Currie (08:38): … right? It’s a- Shea Kidd Brown (08:38): It is. John Currie (08:41): … 10-minute town. It’s the coolest neighborhood in North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (08:42): Yeah. John Currie (08:42): I’ve been all over the state this week,- Shea Kidd Brown (08:44): Mm-hmm. John Currie (08:45): … and this is a really great place to live. Shea Kidd Brown (08:46): Yeah, so I love learning about your childhood a little bit. I do wanna find out when did sport, from a standpoint of being a fan, ’cause you talk a lot about the importance of fans, translate into what you decided to do? So, tell me a little bit about your sports journey, when you decided to be in this from a professional standpoint. I’d love to hear about that. John Currie (09:07): When I was a little kid, my grandfather landed on Utah Beach, 06:30 in the morning- Shea Kidd Brown (09:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:12): … on D-Day. Shea Kidd Brown (09:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:14): And he was on the beach all day, ’cause he was regimental supply officer, so he never left the beach. And so, growing up, I really looked up to my grandfather. You know, he had his medals, and- Shea Kidd Brown (09:22): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:22): … he didn’t talk a whole lot about it, but- Shea Kidd Brown (09:23): Right. John Currie (09:24): … as a result of knowing that he had been part of D-Day and been part of, uh, that war, and interestingly, he was a Clemson graduate, and he was a- Shea Kidd Brown (09:30): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:31): … passionate Clemson fan, uh, and he was a charter member of [inaudible 00:09:33]. And so, I read, like, every book about World War II- Shea Kidd Brown (09:38): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:39): … and Vietnam, and Korea in the Estes Hills Elementary School Library- Shea Kidd Brown (09:43): Wow (laughs). John Currie (09:43): … in Chapel Hill. One of those books, i- ironically, was about medal of honor winners, and it featured a profile of Sergeant Lawrence Joel, and so- Shea Kidd Brown (09:51): Wow. John Currie (09:51): … when I came to Wake Forest in 1989 and learned that the Coliseum had just- Shea Kidd Brown (09:55): (laughs). John Currie (09:56): … been named after Lawrence Joel- Shea Kidd Brown (09:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:57): … who was the first living black medal of honor winner- Shea Kidd Brown (10:00): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:03): Winston-Salem’s first Medal of Honor winner from his heroic actions as a Medic in Vietnam, I think it was 1965, the engagement that he was cited for. I actually knew who Lawrence Joel was. Shea Kidd Brown (10:10): Wow. John Currie (10:10): Right? Even before- Shea Kidd Brown (10:10): Because you’d read about it. John Currie (10:10): Be- because I read about it when I was in elementary school. So, history was something I was really into. Shea Kidd Brown (10:16): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:16): And then I was into sports, right? Shea Kidd Brown (10:17): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:18): And, you know, I played soccer from a… Anson Dorrance just retired as the women’s soccer coach at Wake Forest. (Correction: Anson Dorrance was the UNC Chapel Hill women’s soccer coach.) Shea Kidd Brown (10:23): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:23): And in the ’70s he, he started a program at Chapel Hill called Rainbow Soccer. Shea Kidd Brown (10:26): Hmm. John Currie (10:26): And everybody at Chapel Hill played Rainbow Soccer. And baseball, and of course I loved basketball and football and all that kind of stuff. Shea Kidd Brown (10:30): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:32): I was not an elite athlete. My son found one of my old trophies from like ninth grade about ten years ago, and it said, “Best Hustle Award.” Shea Kidd Brown (10:40): (laughs) John Currie (10:40): And Jack said, “You know, Dad, that means you weren’t any good.” Shea Kidd Brown (10:43): (laughs) John Currie (10:43): Right? I read a lot. Shea Kidd Brown (10:45): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:45): Right? And so I followed box scores, and you know, I kinda learned to read… The Chapel Hill Newspaper was an afternoon paper, right? Shea Kidd Brown (10:51): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:51): So, I’d come home and read the Chapel Hill Newspaper and read the box scores. And Jay Bilas calls it like, kinda the golden era of college sports, right? Shea Kidd Brown (10:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:57): ‘Cause you had all these players that stayed in school for four years- Shea Kidd Brown (10:59): Right. John Currie (11:00): You know, growing up in the Atlantic Coast Conference on Tobacco Road- Shea Kidd Brown (11:02): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:03): … you knew there were only seven teams. Then there was eight when Georgia Tech came in in 1980, then there was eight. You sailed with the Pilot on Wednesday nights, on Raycom Jefferson-Pilot, you watched the game of the week, or double-header or whatever with, you know, Bones McKinney was one of the announcers, etc. You knew every player, every starter of all eight- Shea Kidd Brown (11:21): Wow. John Currie (11:21): … seven or eight ACC teams. You knew every quarterback in the league. It was just ubiquitous- Shea Kidd Brown (11:25): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:25): … you know, in the culture of North Carolina. There were no professional sports in North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (11:28): Right. John Currie (11:29): Back then there were probably three or four million people in North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (11:31): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:31): And then going into junior high school and then high school at Chapel Hill Senior, I remember Jennifer Kincaid, my English teacher that I had two classes with in high school. Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): It’s funny how- John Currie (11:40): Um- Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): … we recall- John Currie (11:40): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): … those favorite teachers. John Currie (11:43): And Dave Faden in eighth grade- Shea Kidd Brown (11:45): (laughs) John Currie (11:45): … taught me how to be a principal. And Freddy Kieger is a famous, uh, history teach s- he does television now. Shea Kidd Brown (11:50): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:51): It’s, uh, I see Mr. Kieger at different games sometimes. So, as a result, I was doing these sports. I was really history kinda- Shea Kidd Brown (11:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:57): … organized. And I was the editor in chief of the Proconian, the pros and cons of Chapel Hill High School. Shea Kidd Brown (12:00): Oh. John Currie (12:00): And I was president of the senior class. And so I used to write the game programs for our soccer games- Shea Kidd Brown (12:07): Hm. John Currie (12:07): … at Chapel Senior High School. I was in the newspaper, so I could make ’em,- Shea Kidd Brown (12:09): Hm. John Currie (12:10): … lay ’em out, and write about the coach of the visiting team. Shea Kidd Brown (12:11): Right. John Currie (12:12): And came to Wake Forest, I really had no idea what I was gonna do. Shea Kidd Brown (12:15): Mm-hmm. John Currie (12:15): I just took the classes that I liked. Shea Kidd Brown (12:17): Right. John Currie (12:17): Right? That I was interested in. I- Shea Kidd Brown (12:18): Well- John Currie (12:18): I thought that’s what you were supposed to do- Shea Kidd Brown (12:19): Yeah. John Currie (12:20): … at a liberal arts university. Shea Kidd Brown (12:21): And I think you should. John Currie (12:22): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (12:22): You know? That’s like… Just to interrupt for a second. Like, I think our students now feel like they have to know day one, and you’re not even a fully formed human- John Currie (12:29): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (12:29): … yet, so how can you- John Currie (12:30): Absolute- Shea Kidd Brown (12:30): … make this big decision? So, I think that was what you shoulda done. John Currie (12:34): Absolutely. So, I probably thought I was gonna be a high school history teacher and a- Shea Kidd Brown (12:36): Yeah. John Currie (12:37): … baseball or soccer coach, ’cause those are the people I looked up to. Shea Kidd Brown (12:39): Mm-hmm. John Currie (12:40): And then I did take some teaching practicum classes. I did one at Glenn High School. But later I decided not to student teach, ’cause you had to make that decision early- Shea Kidd Brown (12:47): Yeah. John Currie (12:47): … in my junior year and I was thinking like, “Second semester senior year up at 5:00 a.m.-” Shea Kidd Brown (12:51): Mm-hmm. John Currie (12:52): “… that’s not gonna work for me.” Shea Kidd Brown (12:52): Right. John Currie (12:53): Right? Shea Kidd Brown (12:53): And it’s also late to find out if that’s not what you wanna do. John Currie (12:56): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (12:56): That’s a late stage- John Currie (12:57): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (12:57): … experiential opportunity, and so it’s late if you figure out that’s not exactly what you wanna do. John Currie (13:02): In August of 1992, I came back to school for my senior year, I got a letter from my dad. I actually just found the box that it was stored in about two weeks ago, and I reread it. It’s about six pages long. Shea Kidd Brown (13:12): Wow. John Currie (13:13): He was a physician, so it’s kinda hard to read it. Shea Kidd Brown (13:14): (laughs) Right? John Currie (13:15): It was six pages long, and I treasured it because it basically said, “You gotta figure out what you’re gonna do next year.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:22): Mm. John Currie (13:22): It didn’t say- what you had to do for the rest of your life. Shea Kidd Brown (13:24): Mm-hmm. John Currie (13:24): It did say that, “You’ve got to put some thought into being intentional about doing something.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:28): Something. John Currie (13:29): And I remember one of the things he wrote in the letter was, “If you decide that your goal is to work in 10 ski resorts in the next three years, that’s okay.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:37): Mm-hmm. John Currie (13:37): “But you have to have a goal.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:39): A goal. Mm-hmm. John Currie (13:39): “And have to have something to work for.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:40): Yeah. John Currie (13:41): I treasure that, and I’m gonna [inaudible 00:13:42] Shea Kidd Brown (13:43): Yeah. John Currie (13:43): … and siblings and all kinds a stuff. Shea Kidd Brown (13:44): That’s great. John Currie (13:44): Had a fraternity brother who was, uh, he’s very successful, but he was kind of a goof off. Shea Kidd Brown (13:48): (laughs) John Currie (13:49): Kind of a shortcut taker. Fell in love in the spring semester. He was on an exchange program, he met a s- student who is still his wife and he fell in love, and she was really with it and she already had a job, and one day- Shea Kidd Brown (13:58): She was with it, you say. (laughs) John Currie (13:59): She was really with it. I mean, really smart. Really- Shea Kidd Brown (14:01): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:01): Kinda like my wife, really organized. Shea Kidd Brown (14:02): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:02): And like, we were just k- a bunch a guys. And one day this guy walks into the house we were living in, and we were laying around watching Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune or Price is Right or something. Shea Kidd Brown (14:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:12): And this guy, George is his name, he had a suit on, and we were like, “George, do you have to go to court?” Shea Kidd Brown (14:17): (laughs) John Currie (14:17): You know, “What’s going on here?” Right? “You in trouble?” Shea Kidd Brown (14:18): (laughs) Right. John Currie (14:18): And George was like, “Guys, we’re seniors, we have to get jobs.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:23): Ah. (laughs) Okay. John Currie (14:24): True story. And he walked on through the thing, and we kinda looked at him. You could tell that we were like, “If George is getting a job-” Shea Kidd Brown (14:29): Right. We- John Currie (14:29): “… we better get jobs, too.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:30): So, was he headed to the career fair or something? John Currie (14:32): He had just gone to the career services- Shea Kidd Brown (14:33): Oh, okay. John Currie (14:34): … office to meet with somebody or whatever. And so we started as a group kinda this pattern where we would go to the career services office. Shea Kidd Brown (14:38): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:39): And I can’t remember her last name, but her first name was Penny, and back then they had a wall where they had clipboards and you would sign up for interviews or you would drop your resume into- Shea Kidd Brown (14:47): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:47): … a manila folder- Shea Kidd Brown (14:48): My gosh. John Currie (14:48): … stapled to one of the clipboards. And I got to know Penny, and I became the person that was her backup. So, if somebody didn’t show up for a interview or canceled for an interview- Shea Kidd Brown (14:56): Uh-huh. John Currie (14:56): She didn’t wanna have an empty spot- Shea Kidd Brown (14:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:58): … for the interviewer, so she would call me. And if the message came through on the house phone, ’cause we didn’t have cell- Shea Kidd Brown (15:02): So different. John Currie (15:02): … I would like put on a suit and run over and interview. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (15:04): (laughs) John Currie (15:06): To fill her slot. Shea Kidd Brown (15:06): Y- you got a lotta practice. John Currie (15:08): So, I got a lotta practice. Shea Kidd Brown (15:09): Yeah. John Currie (15:09): And I always say, I’m sure that I was the person that when the recruiters were back at the hotel that night talking- Shea Kidd Brown (15:15): Mm-hmm. John Currie (15:15): … about the biggest joke interviews they had that day, I was always the one they were talking about. Shea Kidd Brown (15:19): No. John Currie (15:19): And later on in that year, met Ron Wellman, he was a brand new athletic director, he was doing what brand new athletic directors do, which is go meet different student groups. And I met with Ron and he said, “Well, come on by sometime.” And it turned out he had an internship. They had an internship in development, and ended up working at an internship. So, the interesting thing about that, Shea, is I took that job August 16th, 1993. Shea Kidd Brown (15:36): Mm-hmm. John Currie (15:37): [Inaudible 00:15:37] intern. I turned down a job with PepsiCo, turned down a job with insurance something or whatever. And I took this job, didn’t pay very much, and now people say, “Mr. Currie, I’m really interested in being an athletic director.” Shea Kidd Brown (15:48): Mm. Hm. John Currie (15:48): “When did you decide you wanted to be an athletic director?” And I’m always amazed, August 16th, 1993- Shea Kidd Brown (15:52): Mm-hmm. John Currie (15:53): … when I walked into the Wake Forest athletics program, the thought of me being like- Shea Kidd Brown (15:57): Hm. John Currie (15:57): … Ron Wellman wasn’t even- Shea Kidd Brown (15:59): Didn’t occur. John Currie (15:59): … remotely in my comprehension. Shea Kidd Brown (16:01): Yeah, yeah. John Currie (16:02): That was so far out of my comprehension. Shea Kidd Brown (16:04): Hm. John Currie (16:04): And it wasn’t until about 10 years in that I was like, “You know what? I, I might wanna do that in the right situation.” Shea Kidd Brown (16:10): Wow. Was your thought process like your dad had advised, like, “I’m thinking about what the next year looks like.” Not your whole life? John Currie (16:17): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:17): Yeah. John Currie (16:17): So like, one of the things he said, “If you wanna go to graduate school-” Shea Kidd Brown (16:20): Mm-hmm. John Currie (16:20): “… I’ll support that.” Shea Kidd Brown (16:21): Mm-hmm. Your dad? John Currie (16:23): He said that. Shea Kidd Brown (16:23): Mm-hmm. John Currie (16:23): He said, “But you can’t go to graduate school, ’cause you don’t know what you wanna do.” Shea Kidd Brown (16:25): Mm-hmm. Right. John Currie (16:26): To, just to mark time. Shea Kidd Brown (16:27): Sure. John Currie (16:28): That’s not acceptable. Shea Kidd Brown (16:29): Mm-hmm. John Currie (16:29): Right? And I recognize, you know, I’m incredibly fortunate that, you know, I graduated from college without any debt. And I recognize I have lots of benefits and blessings that other people don’t get, a lot of whom have made a lot more out of themselves than I have. Shea Kidd Brown (16:41): Well, that’s… we can argue about… John Currie (16:43): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:43): … whether that’s true or not, but I think there’s so many lessons in that. I mean, to have someone see you and see your potential. For you to be open and say, “This corporate path might be a sure thing, too. I’m gonna say no to that. I’m gonna lean into w- the right now.” And then see where it takes you, I think is really interesting. So at Wake Forest, while you were a student, we kinda- John Currie (17:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:04): … fast forwarded to junior and senior year, but what memories do you have as you think about, you were a history major. Did you have a minor? John Currie (17:11): I minored in politics. Shea Kidd Brown (17:12): In politics. Okay. John Currie (17:13): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:14): So, you stayed on that history path- John Currie (17:15): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:15): … that you started really early in your upbringing. What was Wake Forest like- John Currie (17:19): So- Shea Kidd Brown (17:20): … back then, and what were you like? John Currie (17:21): So I mentioned there was, my class at Chapel Hill High School, Senior High School was 399 people. Shea Kidd Brown (17:25): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:26): And I think 60 of ’em went to UNC Chapel Hill. Shea Kidd Brown (17:28): Okay. John Currie (17:28): And so three went to Wake Forest. Uh- Shea Kidd Brown (17:30): And was your original plan there? John Currie (17:34): No. Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Okay. John Currie (17:34): One of the places I applied. Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:34): I mean, I got in some places, I didn’t get in other places. I got waitlisted at other places. I actually got into Rhodes College in Memphis. Shea Kidd Brown (17:39): Beautiful campus. John Currie (17:40): And, uh, I got in there off the waitlist. Shea Kidd Brown (17:42): Mm. John Currie (17:42): Late April, my father and I flew out to look at the campus. Shea Kidd Brown (17:44): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:44): I was gonna go there, and that was a, you know, Division 3 school. Maybe I could play soccer- Shea Kidd Brown (17:48): Hm. John Currie (17:48): … or baseball or something like that. And then I got into Wake about four weeks later and- Shea Kidd Brown (17:51): Okay. John Currie (17:51): … there were a lotta reasons that Wake appealed to me. I had some cousins that had gone here. The American Legion used to sponsor Boys State. Shea Kidd Brown (17:58): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:58): An- and that was at Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (17:58): Yeah. John Currie (17:59): And so I had spent a week here between my sophomore and junior year or junior and senior year. So, uh, I mean, a lot of it appealed to me, right? Shea Kidd Brown (18:04): Yeah. John Currie (18:05): And I had some people in my church, uh, Joe Clontz, who, uh, just passed away this past year. Shea Kidd Brown (18:09): Hm. John Currie (18:09): And, uh, Limon Ferrell and some other people in my church in Chapel Hill, Olin T. Binkley Memorial Church, were influential in my life. Shea Kidd Brown (18:16): Mm-hmm. John Currie (18:17): And that was a big part of our family’s life, and so, so I knew a lot about Wake Forest, so I came to Wake Forest. When I came here, the other people from my class that came here were Lara Nelson, whose parents had been here, and then Ryan Allston. Can’t remember if Ryan came that year or he came the next year. H- he played football at Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (18:30): Okay. John Currie (18:31): And so those are the people that I knew. And I had been with those two people all through elementary school. Shea Kidd Brown (18:36): Mm-hmm. John Currie (18:36): From Estes, et cetera. A cousin named Tony Pennet, who, uh, now works at, uh, Rentals America, and who was also he, a distant cousin. So, that was all I knew. Shea Kidd Brown (18:43): Hm. John Currie (18:43): I was probably pretty insecure. I do consider myself, you would not agree with this, but pretty introverted. Shea Kidd Brown (18:52): (laughs) No, I would not agree with that- John Currie (18:53): Well- Shea Kidd Brown (18:53): … at all. John Currie (18:53): … a recovered introvert, but- Shea Kidd Brown (18:53): Yeah. John Currie (18:54): Remember, introverts make the best salespeople. Shea Kidd Brown (18:55): Yeah. John Currie (18:55): You know why? Shea Kidd Brown (18:56): Uh, why? John Currie (18:56): Because they listen. Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Yeah. (laughs) That’s true. John Currie (18:58): Okay. They- Shea Kidd Brown (18:58): That’s true. John Currie (18:59): They listen. Shea Kidd Brown (19:00): Yeah. John Currie (19:00): So, always remember that, introverts. Shea Kidd Brown (19:02): Yeah. John Currie (19:02): So, I was shy. I didn’t know anybody, but it was, I had a great suite and- Shea Kidd Brown (19:05): So, were you on the quad first year then? You’re s- John Currie (19:07): I was in Kitchin 304. Shea Kidd Brown (19:07): Okay. John Currie (19:09): I was in C. So, back then now, those back rooms had two people in ’em. Shea Kidd Brown (19:11): Oh. (laughs) John Currie (19:12): Now you’ve just got, you’re- Shea Kidd Brown (19:12): I know. We- John Currie (19:14): … They just got one now. Shea Kidd Brown (19:15): Hear that, students, if you’re listening? John Currie (19:16): Right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:16): Things have changed a little bit. John Currie (19:21): So, back in the corner in Kitchin 304C, it was l- overlooked the road there, above Student Health. Shea Kidd Brown (19:22): Mm-hmm. John Currie (19:23): I had a great- Shea Kidd Brown (19:23): Yeah. John Currie (19:23): … freshman suite, and then, uh, ended up in the same fraternity with some of those guys, and there was a club soccer team. There’s a guy named Pete Heinz, who’s a, uh, ’91 grad. Shea Kidd Brown (19:31): Yeah. John Currie (19:31): And he’s been really involved at Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (19:33): Mm-hmm. I’ve met Pete. John Currie (19:34): We, we reconnected five or six years ago s- Shea Kidd Brown (19:36): Yeah. John Currie (19:36): … when I came back. And I said, “You know, Pete, you, as a junior when I was a freshman, and that club soccer team became like…” I mean, that was one of my places. Shea Kidd Brown (19:44): Yeah. John Currie (19:45): It’s, uh, my people. And so like, you know, even as a student leader how you impact other students, and you don’t even know it. Shea Kidd Brown (19:50): Know it. Mm-hmm.

John Currie (19:51): Right? Pete’s become a really good friend and he’s- Shea Kidd Brown (19:53): Yeah. John Currie (19:53): … obviously been a, a great supporter for Wake Forest and Wake Forest Soccer. Shea Kidd Brown (19:56): Mm-hmm. John Currie (19:57): But the fraternity thing was really important to me and learned a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (20:00): Mm-hmm. John Currie (20:00): … from that experience. I, uh, took German. So, I took five semesters of German. John Currie (20:03): … a lot from that experience. Shea Kidd Brown (20:03): Mm-hmm. John Currie (20:03): I took German. So I took five semesters of German at Wake Forest. I passed four. Shea Kidd Brown (20:04): (laughs). John Currie (20:07): Went abroad for a month between junior and senior year. Shea Kidd Brown (20:09): Where’d you go? John Currie (20:09): Germany. It was a trip with Dr. West. His daughter Sarah was in my class. It was like 10 students who went for a week in four different cities. It was really great. Shea Kidd Brown (20:17): Yeah. John Currie (20:17): A great trip. And there were some professors that were, you know, really impactful and really engaged. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): Yeah. John Currie (20:22): Two of my best professors actually aren’t at Wake Forest any more. It was kind of a transitional period at that time because a lot of the professors who had come here from the old campus, kind of the legendary professors, a lot of them had retired. It was slowing down. (20:33): And so two of the professors I had were assistant professors who have now gone on and are at other places. One’s at Cal Berkeley and one’s at Washington University St. Louis. But they were impactful. (20:41): And then I’ll never forget. Carlton Mitchell is one of the all-time great names at Wake Forest. So, I’m putting him into your podcast because you know, he’s been passed away for many, many years. But he was our religion professor when I was a freshman. Voice and mannerisms and kind of his incredible depth of the subjects and stuff like that. Shea Kidd Brown (20:58): Right. John Currie (20:58): I’ll always remember that class. Shea Kidd Brown (20:59): Yeah. John Currie (21:00): And four or five years later when I was working at Wake, Dr. Mitchell had played basketball for Wake in the thirties. Shea Kidd Brown (21:04): Really? John Currie (21:05): And I was working for Wake Forest and I said something about, “Yeah, I took your class when I was a freshman.” And Dr. Mitchell said, “Yes, John, I believe you were [inaudible 00:21:12].” (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (21:14): (laughs). Are you serious? John Currie (21:14): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (21:16): That’s great. So for listeners, John and I, I said already, we’re close colleagues. We work together a lot and we talk about this place. And when I first started here, and I’d talk about Wake Forest and I’d say, or I’d ask, “What is special about this place?” And I was told, “You know, Wake Forest is a deeply relational place.” But, (21:34): and we laugh now, and chuckle about it, but it is. Able to name people, specific people, and many of those are faculty who were important to you. And so it just demonstrates just how special this place is. (21:47): We could probably go on and on about just this question I’m about to ask, but what are those two, three things that you think of that are still true that you experienced as a student now as you get to work here. John Currie (22:00): I distinctly remember we had a big basketball win when I was junior year. Beat Duke. They were ranked number one. My classmate, John Sadlowski, who has two children at Wake Forest actually sent me after we beat Duke this past year, he sent me the copy of the newspaper, Winston-Salem newspaper, because he was actually on top of the rim. Shea Kidd Brown (22:16): What!? John Currie (22:16): Front page of the paper. Shea Kidd Brown (22:19): Oh my gosh. John Currie (22:21): So, don’t do that. Shea Kidd Brown (22:21): No. John Currie (22:22): You’re not allowed to do that anymore. Shea Kidd Brown (22:22): Not here. John Currie (22:23): And John is an esteemed attorney now. (22:25): But I remember how that particular event just solidified. You know, later that night we threw basically a big party. And like the basketball team was there and people from all different groups and all over. Everybody was just together. Shea Kidd Brown (22:37): Yeah. John Currie (22:38): And even now I do exit interviews with student-athletes. Shea Kidd Brown (22:41): Mm-hmm. John Currie (22:41): And I had an exit interview with a football athlete several years ago and I said, “What’s the most memorable thing of your Wake Forest time?” And this student athlete, who was a pretty good football player, successful, great student, all that kind of stuff. He said, “You know, with the basketball team, we had a basketball win, and we were all on the quad after the game, on Hearn Plaza and everybody was together.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:00): Wow. John Currie (23:00): That to me defined Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (23:00): Yeah. That gives me chills. John Currie (23:04): And I-I really think that’s, despite everything that’s going on in college athletics this year, I still believe in the opportunity and the camaraderie and the teammates and all that kind of stuff. But what I really love about athletics or events or whatever, is it brings people together. Shea Kidd Brown (23:15): Yeah. John Currie (23:16): And having, when we used to have university-wide parties like out at the, what is now the rugby field or the soccer field. We used to have band parties down there, band-sponsored, stuff like that. Those moments of everybody being- Shea Kidd Brown (23:28): Together. John Currie (23:28): … for everybody to be together. I’m grateful, and I appreciate the partnership with Campus Life and how we’ve worked together- Shea Kidd Brown (23:35): Yeah. John Currie (23:35): … to continue to create those moments, you know? Shea Kidd Brown (23:37): Yeah. John Currie (23:38): Before you got here, during in the depth of COVID, part two. Our students had worked so hard, and our university leadership had worked so hard to provide a safe environment and honor the safety aspects. Shea Kidd Brown (23:49): Sure. John Currie (23:49): And be respectful and all that kind of stuff. And people were really suffering at that point. Shea Kidd Brown (23:53): Right. John Currie (23:53): Isolation, stuff like that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:54): Absolutely. John Currie (23:55): And I remember. We were thinking, “We’ve got to create some fun.” We worked with Tim Wilkinson and others to create some fun things around watch parties on the Mag, and the way that has led into the moments of seeing all these students together… has really been awesome. Shea Kidd Brown (24:09): Yeah. John Currie (24:09): And I will say that 2019, when we had the Winston-Salem State band and the Wake Forest band perform on our home first game, my first game here. And people came up and talked about how it was amazing. First time we’d ever done that, and we did it again. Those are really special. Shea Kidd Brown (24:23): Special. Yeah, that togetherness is special. And I was on a different campus during the pandemic but it was the… There’s things that you just can’t recreate on a screen that maybe we had never even had to grapple with until we were- John Currie (24:36): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (24:37): … in the middle of it. And I do love looking across and seeing a full student section and what it means to wear Old Gold and black. And when I’m in an airport or when I’m in a different city and I hear “Go Deacs.” A current parent told me he was in Europe and had “WF” on his belt and someone came up to him and said, “Go Deacs.” He was almost like forgetting, “I’m not in the US. I’m not in North Carolina.” John Currie (25:04): Right. Well, one of the things though, that you just touched on, in different places. I’ve been in different places, and when you said, “Even though I didn’t go to Wake Forest,” that bothered me. Okay? Shea Kidd Brown (25:09): Hmm. John Currie (25:09): Because you’re kind of like saying like you’re not equal. Right? When I was away from Wake Forest for almost 20 years at University of Tennessee, where you worked as well. Shea Kidd Brown (25:18): Right. John Currie (25:18): And also Kansas State University where I was for eight years, and then at Kansas. Shea Kidd Brown (25:21): Right. John Currie (25:22): Kansas State pretty much admits everybody that applies, you know, with a few exceptions. Wake Forest, highly selective. Shea Kidd Brown (25:28): Right. John Currie (25:28): But one of the things I learned there was just because a place is open, right, and has a kind of an open inclusivity, doesn’t mean it’s not high quality. Shea Kidd Brown (25:37): Yeah. That’s so true. John Currie (25:38): There can be really high quality people there. Right? Shea Kidd Brown (25:40): Yeah. John Currie (25:40): And so here at Wake Forest, where, you know, the circumstances of who we are means that we’re really highly selective, which is a great attribute, I believe that we’ve got to be really careful that highly selective is not arrogant. Shea Kidd Brown (25:53): Yeah. John Currie (25:53): And highly selective is not exclusive. Shea Kidd Brown (25:54): Exclusive. John Currie (25:55): That’s a real fine line to walk, right? Shea Kidd Brown (25:57): Yeah, it is. John Currie (25:58): There are a lot of people that really, really love Wake Forest who didn’t go to Wake Forest. And so we’ve even actually talked as a staff. When you see somebody wearing Wake stuff, you say, “Go Deacs.” Shea Kidd Brown (26:07): Yeah. John Currie (26:07): “Hey, how long you been a Wake fan?” Right? Shea Kidd Brown (26:09): Right. John Currie (26:09): Because this university exists in a lot of ways on the backs of people who loved Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (26:15): That’s right. John Currie (26:15): Served Wake Forest when they worked here, or when they were a volunteer in the community. There’s a guy named Burt Bennett, and he’s long deceased. He still has kids here. But Burt Bennett really helped drive the… He was a Carolina grad but he was a Winston-Salem person. He recognized what a significant thing Wake Forest was to Winston-Salem, how important the ACC was to Winston-Salem. Shea Kidd Brown (26:34): Yeah. John Currie (26:35): And so he was a big driver in building what is now Allegacy Federal Credit Union Stadium back in the sixties. I just think we’ve got to be really intentional- Shea Kidd Brown (26:43): Yeah. John Currie (26:43): … about making sure that Wake Forest is for everybody. You’ve got the We thing. Shea Kidd Brown (26:47): Yes. John Currie (26:47): Wake Forest, that “We” doesn’t mean just ‘cause you went here. Shea Kidd Brown (26:50): Right. Yeah. John Currie (26:50): There’s like 75 or 80,000 people that graduated from here, but we have 2.7 million fans. Shea Kidd Brown (26:55): Fans. John Currie (26:55): We got to embrace them all. Shea Kidd Brown (26:56): I appreciate you-you naming that because you know I do love Wake Forest, too. Wear black and gold every day. And it is important. You’ve really created a culture of inclusivity and, you know, whether it is a face-to-face event that is at the LJVM, or it is a football game, or a baseball game, or a soccer game, you always get a “Welcome to Wake Forest,” like you’re teams. And we partner with a lot of teams that aren’t employed by Wake Forest but you’ve really done an amazing job at creating a family-friendly environment, but a warm environment no matter who you’re rooting for. (27:30): And that’s important. But it’s also important that people work here and dedicate their lives here, that we are also a part of that we. So, thank you. And you didn’t just say it – I’ve seen your actions behind it. So, I appreciate that. (27:42): I want to take a turn a little bit because everything we’ve talked about so far is really grounding and calm. You know? And your job is really hard. It is an ever-changing, evolving environment, particularly the last few years. So, I’m curious how you’re navigating that, just as a human, you know. What keeps you grounded when the ground is literally changing each day? Talk a little bit about that. John Currie (28:11): Well, I appreciate it. This is an exhilarating job in lots of ways. Shea Kidd Brown (28:13): Mm-hmm. John Currie (28:14): It’s a hard job, but without sounding cliché, there are a lot of hard jobs out there. Right? Shea Kidd Brown (28:19): Sure. John Currie (28:19): I once was around a coach who kept talking on the circuit about these tremendous sacrifices that the families of the coaches were making. And we were right in the middle of a war. Shea Kidd Brown (28:29): Hmm. John Currie (28:29): And I’m kind of like, “Hey, Coach, there’s people out there in the audience. Their spouses are in Iraq.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:34): Yeah. Let’s think about our perspective. John Currie (28:35): Let’s think about what sacrifice really is. Right? Shea Kidd Brown (28:37): Yeah. John Currie (28:38): And so, you know, my kids have been moved without consultation a couple of times by decisions I made. But there’s plenty of good to go with the hard, and I’ve been able to be part of some incredible moments and stories and build stuff, and different places we’ve impacted people. (28:54): One of the letters, I still have a copy of it. We did this promotion when I first got to K State about the pledge, right. So, if you bought a season ticket for $99, you could continue to buy that ticket at $99 as long as you came to at least six games. Shea Kidd Brown (29:07): Hmm. John Currie (29:07): And I got this letter, and I had framed it because it defined what we were trying to accomplish. It was from the wife of the family. She said, “We’re so excited. We’re huge fans. My husband’s a teacher. We paint houses during the summer, and we’ve never been able to go. And this gives us the ability to go- Shea Kidd Brown (29:23): Amazing. John Currie (29:24): “… and be part of it.” Right? Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): Yeah. Yeah. John Currie (29:25): And so creating ways for people to be part. So, stuff like that is… keeps you going. Shea Kidd Brown (29:29): Yeah. John Currie (29:30): And then I will say I believe in work-life balance, and it’s okay to have work-life balance. Shea Kidd Brown (29:36): Mm-hmm. John Currie (29:37): I made peace with the reality that this job is not work-life balance, it’s work-life integration. Shea Kidd Brown (29:43): Mm-hmm. Me too. John Currie (29:43): You take the pros and you take the cons. Shea Kidd Brown (29:45): Right. John Currie (29:45): This is my 15th year as a Power Five athletic director. It’s my 31st year of college athletics, and so many people would have loved to have had that opportunity. You know, to be a champion-… I’ve been part of championships in the SEC and the ACC and the Big 12. I’ve been to great bowl games and been with incredible athletes. Shea Kidd Brown (30:01): Right. John Currie (30:02): And accomplishments and professors and been part of building academic buildings and athletic buildings, helped get more flights into an airport. I mean, I’ve, I’ve- Shea Kidd Brown (30:08): (laughs) John Currie (30:09): … been able to do some really cool stuff. What I’ve kind of made peace with is that the way that I do the job isn’t necessarily the right way to do the job. Shea Kidd Brown (30:15): Mm-hmm. John Currie (30:16): And I, I sometimes, I see some other, uh, ADs, I’m like, “Man, that person, she is doing it so much better than I am.” Shea Kidd Brown (30:21): (laughs) John Currie (30:21): “She’s so much more organized. She’s so much put together.” And what I’ve kind of realized is that the way I do the job is all in, all the time. Shea Kidd Brown (30:26): Hmm. John Currie (30:27): And that’s just the way I do the job. Shea Kidd Brown (30:29): Yeah. John Currie (30:29): And so as long as I can do it all in, all the time, I can do the job. If I get to the point that I can’t be all in, all the time, I can’t be effective. Shea Kidd Brown (30:36): That’s your signal. John Currie (30:37): So, that’s just the way I do it. Ron Wellman was athletic director 27 years. Gene Hooks was athletic director 28 years. Shea Kidd Brown (30:42): Hmm. John Currie (30:43): Dr. Hooks is like 95. Ron is younger. They’ll both be at the game tomorrow. I will not be athletic director at Wake Forest for 27 or 28 years. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (30:50): Hmm. (laughs) ‘Cause you don’t feel like you can be all in, all the time for that long? John Currie (30:53): Just there’s, it’ll be time for somebody else to do it. Shea Kidd Brown (30:54): Yeah, yeah. So, I do have to ask, you know, the dynamics of NIL and transfer portal and litigation, you know, there’s a lot that’s part of the noise of this. So, how have you adjusted to that? You’re all in, all the time, and you are achieving work-life integration. I imagine some adjustments have had to have been made in terms of how you work. John Currie (31:16): Mm-hmm. Yeah, every year we have a graduation reception for student athletes and their families. Shea Kidd Brown (31:21): Mm-hmm. John Currie (31:21): And we’ve had incredible graduation… Long before I was here, incredible graduation- Shea Kidd Brown (31:23): Graduation rates? John Currie (31:25): … success here at Wake Forest. Jane Caldwell is our senior associate dean for academic services. But we do a graduation reception on Sundays. You know, we have graduation here at Wake Forest- Shea Kidd Brown (31:33): Mm-hmm. John Currie (31:33): … on Monday mornings so graduation reception on Sunday, about two hours. You know, it’s a really nice reception, etc. You know, it’s a very short program. And I realized this year walking around how I don’t know as many student-athletes as I knew before well- Shea Kidd Brown (31:46): Hmm, mm-hmm. John Currie (31:47): … right? And so part of that was because just not able to be as around as much as I wanna be around and- Shea Kidd Brown (31:52): Right. John Currie (31:52): … be with our athletes and our coaches. Part of it was because we have more athletes who have transferred in. Shea Kidd Brown (31:57): Right. John Currie (31:58): And then we have athletes who I got to know when they were freshmen or sophomore, might have transferred- Shea Kidd Brown (32:01): Out. John Currie (32:02): … out. So that’s a different thing. Shea Kidd Brown (32:03): Yeah. John Currie (32:04): But I still try to be around, gotta make sure I’m with every team- Shea Kidd Brown (32:07): Mm-hmm. John Currie (32:07): … at least once or twice a year. I go to games for everybody. I try to be as visible, go to practice when I can. But it’s not as much as I would like to. At its core, from what I see, what matters is still what matters. Shea Kidd Brown (32:19): Hmm. John Currie (32:20): And what matters is the most is still the opportunity to come to a place like Wake Forest- Shea Kidd Brown (32:25): Mm-hmm. John Currie (32:25): … and the relationship- Shea Kidd Brown (32:25): Right. John Currie (32:25): … that can be developed at a place like Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (32:26): Yeah. John Currie (32:30): That still matters. Shea Kidd Brown (32:31): Right. John Currie (32:32): Even if an athlete has a big NIL deal or next year a big licensing deal or whatever, ultimately, the real value is still gonna be what kind of relationship platform do we provide- Shea Kidd Brown (32:43): Mm-hmm. John Currie (32:43): … for our student-athletes to build relationships with each other, with their coaching- Shea Kidd Brown (32:46): Yeah. John Currie (32:46): … staff, with their professors. Different people will take advantage- Shea Kidd Brown (32:49): Right. John Currie (32:49): … of it in different ways just like any student. My belief is that I don’t know what it’s gonna look like three or four or five years from now, right? Shea Kidd Brown (32:55): Right. John Currie (32:56): It looks a lot different than it did 30 years ago, mostly for the good. You know, there’s some things that I wish weren’t like that. But generally speaking, the experience for a student-athlete is the best it’s ever been- Shea Kidd Brown (33:05): Yeah. John Currie (33:05): … in terms of support and medical care and [inaudible 00:33:07] blah, blah, blah. But to me, the more transactional the enterprise becomes, the more Wake Forest stands out as a place where you can have a steak and the sizzle- Shea Kidd Brown (33:17): Hmm. John Currie (33:17): … so to speak, right? Shea Kidd Brown (33:18): Mm-hmm. John Currie (33:19): The NIL stuff and money, that’s the sizzle. What’s the steak? What’s the meat? Bad pun. Shea Kidd Brown (33:21): (laughs) John Currie (33:25): But, you know, that and, and I would say as well, Shea, we’ve had incredible transfer students come to Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (33:29): Yeah. John Currie (33:29): And, you know, credit our former Provost Kersh and Michele Gillespie, our current provost, and Dr. Hatch, Dr. Wente for helping Wake kinda modernize its approach to be more welcoming to transfers, in general- Shea Kidd Brown (33:40): Right. John Currie (33:40): … not just from an athlete standpoint. And my favorite thing about inbound transfer students that come to Wake Forest, they are educated consumers. Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): That’s true. John Currie (33:52): They have been somewhere else. Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): Right. John Currie (33:52): And so unlike freshmen who really, you know, you went on a lot of- Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): Yeah. John Currie (33:53): … college visits, whether you’re an athlete or non-athlete. You went to all these visits. Shea Kidd Brown (33:55): Yeah. John Currie (33:55): But until you’re like at a place- Shea Kidd Brown (33:56): Ex- in. John Currie (33:57): … you don’t really know what it is. Shea Kidd Brown (33:58): And you don’t have comparative analysis. John Currie (34:00): So, by and large, our transfer student-athletes who come here, whether they come from Louisiana Monroe or Michigan- Shea Kidd Brown (34:06): Mm-hmm. John Currie (34:06): … they come in here, they love it- Shea Kidd Brown (34:08): Yeah. John Currie (34:08): … generally speaking- Shea Kidd Brown (34:09): It’s different. John Currie (34:09): … right? And they appreciate the difference. Shea Kidd Brown (34:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (34:13): And they appreciate what it means to have professors reach out to you. I remember we had a kicker who transferred in during COVID from another place, and he even said, “Yeah, my professor emailed me and invited me, you know, to join with some other students on this special Zoom thing.” And it just blew him away. Shea Kidd Brown (34:26): Hmm. John Currie (34:26): To me, as long we’re intentional and deeply relational- Shea Kidd Brown (34:30): (laughs) John Currie (34:32): … and continue to circle back to what really matters- Shea Kidd Brown (34:34): Yeah. John Currie (34:34): … about the enterprise, Wake Forest could be successful. Shea Kidd Brown (34:37): Yeah, I love that. And I’ve seen you demonstrate that. We’ve walked into various buildings together, and you know students by name. And I’ve seen that through our coaches and the work that they do. It is deeply relational. And I love how you describe what relationship platform can we build. Much of Wake Forest University is built upon our motto, Pro Humanitate, and, and what that means. So, as we close, I am curious what that means to you? John Currie (35:04): So, Pro Humanitate to me, we talk about this in some cabinet meetings- Shea Kidd Brown (35:08): Mm-hmm. John Currie (35:08): … or the President’s Leadership Team meetings. But I still think about, you know, Wake Forest being in Winston-Salem, North Carolina and why. You know, what our responsibility is in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (35:17): Mm-hmm. John Currie (35:18): And the people that invested thought this was a good idea in the 40s and 50s. I see our responsibility, why we were invited and incented to come to Winston-Salem is really impacting our community and elevating and being an asset, being a resource and, and create economic positive mobility, know what our, like our law school, our Dean, Dean, uh, Andy Klein. I, I went to the, uh, Martin Luther King Prayer Breakfast a few years ago, uh, which is a great event in Winston-Salem. I’ve been three or four times every time I’m in town. But I remember the, one of the honorees was a graduate of the Wake Forest School of Law. Shea Kidd Brown (35:50): Hmm. John Currie (35:51): And I realized that in this community there was a lot of Wake Law grads- Shea Kidd Brown (35:54): Mm-hmm. John Currie (35:55): … who impacted the community. Shea Kidd Brown (35:56): Right. John Currie (35:57): I just think that’s a huge part of, of our responsibility- Shea Kidd Brown (36:00): Right. John Currie (36:01): And I have lots of favorite things about my job, right? Shea Kidd Brown (36:03): (laughs) John Currie (36:03): Like I love walking into our facilities and seeing Marcina or Sandra or Larry. I’m just going down the list of- Shea Kidd Brown (36:10): (laughs) John Currie (36:11): … Rhino Sports and Entertainment Services, which are our green shirts- Shea Kidd Brown (36:14): Mm-hmm. John Currie (36:15): … and security. [inaudible 00:36:15] They’re our family. Shea Kidd Brown (36:16): Hmm. John Currie (36:17): And we’re their family. Shea Kidd Brown (36:18): Yeah. John Currie (36:19): Now, they’re doing a great job. Shea Kidd Brown (36:20): Yeah. John Currie (36:20): D- that collective together doing a great job. Shea Kidd Brown (36:23): Mm-hmm. John Currie (36:23): It’s a pretty, uh, divided, fragmented, anxious world, right? Shea Kidd Brown (36:28): Yeah. John Currie (36:28): And when you’re coming to one of those events in Winston-Salem and we’re all together- Shea Kidd Brown (36:32): Yeah. John Currie (36:33): … that, that’s what we really should be about. Shea Kidd Brown (36:35): I love that. Thank you. John Currie (36:36): Thank you, Dr. Kidd Brown. Shea Kidd Brown (36:38): It’s really good. (laughs) John Currie (36:38): I’m glad I had this opportunity to just chill out and- Shea Kidd Brown (36:41): Yeah. John Currie (36:41): … just talk. Shea Kidd Brown (36:41): I mean, it’s, it’s… We don’t get this often, you know. John Currie (36:44): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (36:44): So, it’s one of my favorite things to hear what makes you tick and how you define this great place. And you’re in a unique position because you were a student and are a part of the enterprise from a professional standpoint now, and you’re really good at what you do. So, I appreciate our partnership, our ability to dream up a lot of different things together. John Currie (37:04): I just wanna be a contributing person that our Campus, uh, Life staff can feel proud of. Shea Kidd Brown (37:09): Well, and likewise, vice versa. (laughs) So, as we close, I just wanna thank you again for the opportunity. Anything you’re looking forward to in, for the future? John Currie (37:18): Really excited about the progress we’re making under President Wente’s leadership and the continued growth and development of our campus. I’m excited about the Grounds. I saw the frame for the big sign that’s going in. Shea Kidd Brown (37:28): Nice. John Currie (37:29): It’s gonna be a big sign. Shea Kidd Brown (37:30): (laughs) John Currie (37:30): I’m excited about that, too. Shea Kidd Brown (37:31): Well, good. Well, lots to be excited about. Thank you again. John Currie (37:34): Thanks, Shea. Leanna Bernish (37:36): Thank you for taking the time to listen. Yes, you are correct. I’m not Dr. Shea. My name is Leanna Bernish, and I’m the Campus Life Fellow. I work alongside Dr. Shea to produce this podcast. (37:47): At the time of the recording, Dr. Shea had to be out of town unexpectedly, but she truly appreciates the opportunity to talk with such a talented and dedicated leader, John Currie. The world of athletics is constantly changing, so having a director of athletics who is grounded and thinks of our teams as part of his family helps to maintain our distinctive athletics program here at Wake Forest. (38:07): As I reflect on this episode, I’m also thinking about the thread of togetherness. Athletics plays such a role in bringing us together, whether it’s through bonding with teammates, learning life lessons through practice and match, to lively discussions about last night’s game. As John said, “Home is being around people, being a part of a team, team goals, and camaraderie.” (38:27): On behalf of Dr. Shea, I want to extend my gratitude to John for the conversation, and to you for taking the time to listen. Until next time, friends, keep leaning into hard work and heart work. We all have something to contribute to the world, I “Kidd” you not. MaryAnna Bailey (38:42): For any thoughts and suggestions on what, or who, you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

S2| Episode 3: Coach Kim Lewellen

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with the amazing Wake women’s golf team coach, Kim Lewellen. We hear about her journey to Wake Forest, her valuable mentor relationships, words to live by, and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06): Hello, and thank you for joining us today for Kidd You Not. Today, I am so excited to talk to Wake Forest Head Women’s Golf Coach, Kim Lewellen. Coach Lewellen joined the Wake Forest community in 2019 and has continued her distinguished career that has included tenures at The Citadel, East Carolina, and the University of Virginia. (00:26): In her fifth season at Wake Forest, Coach Lewellen led the team to its first national title in women’s golf program history. The Deacs also won a record five regular season titles, and had a program record five all ACC selections. Lewellen also coached four All Americans and three Arnold Palmer Cup selections on the ’22 – ’23 team, along with the program’s first ever back-to-back ACC player of the year, in Rachel Kuehn. (00:57): During the ’21 – ’22 season, our ACC coach of the year led The Deacs to their second ACC title in four years and made an appearance at the NCAA championship, for the fourth time in a row. Truly, the list goes on, and on, and on. But, instead of continuing to share these many accolades, I’m excited for you to hear from the coach herself, so let’s welcome Coach Kim Lewellen. (01:20): Well, hello. Kim Lewellen (01:21): Hello. Shea Kidd Brown (01:22): Coach Lewellen, I’m so glad to have you here on the podcast. Kim Lewellen (01:25): Well, I’m excited to be here, Dr. Shea. I’ve looked forward to this. Uh, we’ve talked about it a lot, so- Shea Kidd Brown (01:29): We have. Kim Lewellen (01:30): … glad to be here. Shea Kidd Brown (01:31): Well, thank you. I know it’s busy. The life of a coach is different than it used to be, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (01:35): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (01:35): So, it’s always been busy- Kim Lewellen (01:37): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (01:38): … but e- it’s layered- Kim Lewellen (01:38): It is. Shea Kidd Brown (01:38): … let’s just say. S- Kim Lewellen (01:39): It is. You know, I’ve been coaching now, 20 plus years, and w- how it started to where it’s now, like you were saying, “busy.” Shea Kidd Brown (01:47): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (01:47): It’s just like any profession- Shea Kidd Brown (01:48): Right. Kim Lewellen (01:49): … think you can do a lot more in a day than you used to. I drove over here in the golf cart- Shea Kidd Brown (01:55): (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (01:55): … from the Arnold Palmer complex eating a bar- Shea Kidd Brown (01:55): Oh, wow. Kim Lewellen (01:56): … God, all right, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (01:57): Yeah. Right there with you having a meeting and, and then coming here. But I remember running into you in the Pit this summer- Kim Lewellen (02:02): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (02:03): … and just talking about our need to connect- Kim Lewellen (02:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:04): … ’cause we haven’t gotten to do that very much. Kim Lewellen (02:06): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:07): We’ve been, kind of, big settings, but not one to one- Kim Lewellen (02:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:10): … sitting across the table from each other. Kim Lewellen (02:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:12): So, I’m thrilled. Kim Lewellen (02:12): And I was telling, uh, one of our players, I said, “I’m going to go, uh, talk with Dr. Shea.” And she goes, “Just love her. She’s always at the Pit.” Shea Kidd Brown (02:19): Aw, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (02:19): She’s always at the Pit. Shea Kidd Brown (02:20): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (02:20): I appreciate it. She’s always got a smile and talking to us at the Pit. Shea Kidd Brown (02:23): Oh, well, good. Kim Lewellen (02:23): So, uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:23): I’m glad to hear that. Kim Lewellen (02:23): So, yeah, s- Shea Kidd Brown (02:26): And I’ve got to get over to talk to them. Kim Lewellen (02:27): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:27): Maybe that’s something we can plan. Kim Lewellen (02:28): Oh, that would be wonderful. Shea Kidd Brown (02:29): Is… yeah. So I imagine we’re gonna talk about golf, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (02:32): Right? (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (02:35): But I wanna go back, yeah, I wanna understand home. Kim Lewellen (02:36): Huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:36): I know you’re North Carolinian. Kim Lewellen (02:37): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:38): But where’s home for you originally? Kim Lewellen (02:39): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:41): And what does home mean to you? Kim Lewellen (02:42): I am from Raleigh. What does home mean to me? I would say, and I guess it’s what you’d hear a lot of people say. But home is where your people are, right? Shea Kidd Brown (02:51): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (02:52): And so as you can tell, I wear my emotions on my sleeve, my girls would say. And my girls, I mean, my team, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (02:55): Yeah, right. Kim Lewellen (02:56): … ’cause I do have two young boys as well, uh, they’re older now. But I grew up in Raleigh, grew up right across from a golf course. Shea Kidd Brown (03:03): Mm-hmm, okay. Kim Lewellen (03:03): Both my parents worked and every morning they’d leave for work, and I’d ride my bike up to the golf course and- Shea Kidd Brown (03:08): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (03:09): … I learned to love a community. Shea Kidd Brown (03:12): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (03:12): Not only the golf course, but wherever you’re at. Shea Kidd Brown (03:14): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (03:15): People and the commonalities that bring you there. And so home is Raleigh where my people are. Shea Kidd Brown (03:19): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (03:19): And then for most of my life, it was actually at the golf course. Shea Kidd Brown (03:22): Wow, love that framing. You know, we all have different definitions of what home means to us. I’m from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, originally. Kim Lewellen (03:29): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (03:30): And how you just capture that, where your people are, that is true because it can transcend. There’s part of Winston now that is home because that’s where my people are, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (03:37): Exactly, exactly, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (03:39): And, you know, I left Knoxville, Tennessee, and that’s… some of the people are still there. Kim Lewellen (03:42): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (03:42): So, I love that. Kim Lewellen (03:43): My husband’s family was from Tupelo, Mississippi. Shea Kidd Brown (03:46): Oh, really? Kim Lewellen (03:46): Yes, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (03:47): I did not know that. Wow. Kim Lewellen (03:49): Uh-huh. He was born in Milan, Tennessee, right, so- Shea Kidd Brown (03:53): Oh, great. And you said it right, because in Tennessee- Kim Lewellen (03:53): Right, I know, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (03:54): … for those who are listening- Kim Lewellen (03:56): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (03:56): … it’s spelled Milan, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (04:03): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (04:03): … but only in Tennessee- Kim Lewellen (04:03): In Tennessee. Shea Kidd Brown (04:03): … do you pronounce it Milan, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (04:03): Exactly, exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (04:03): Yeah, yeah, small world. Kim Lewellen (04:03): So, uh, so, uh, he’s from, from that area. You know, I’ve been fortunate wherever life has taken me… Shea Kidd Brown (04:08): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:08): … which has been many places, um, from Raleigh, but I’ve lived in North Carolina, lived in South Carolina, lived in Virginia, lived in Scotland. Shea Kidd Brown (04:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:15): And, and I have a lot of… wherever I’m at- Shea Kidd Brown (04:18): Right. Kim Lewellen (04:18): And the, the people that you’re with, that’s home for you, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (04:21): Yeah. I love that. And knowing that really, your origin story, like golf is, it sounds like synonymous with, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (04:26): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (04:27): … you know, that from the very beginning, because I was wondering just as a child, what were you were like- Kim Lewellen (04:32): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (04:33): … and at what point golf entered the scene and… So, it sounds like very, very early. Kim Lewellen (04:36): Very early. Shea Kidd Brown (04:37): Oh, yeah. Kim Lewellen (04:37): And it was a community of people that we all enjoy learning something together. Shea Kidd Brown (04:41): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:42): And it, it became part of me at, at an early age, and- Shea Kidd Brown (04:44): Yeah, so how old were you exactly? Kim Lewellen (04:46): Uh, I started riding my bike up to the golf course, probably at 9 and 10. Shea Kidd Brown (04:50): Wow, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (04:51): Uh-huh, (laughs). You know, and that… they, they didn’t know, but they were also my babysitters, right? (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (04:55): Yeah, that’s really [inaudible 00:04:56]. Kim Lewellen (04:56): But it was a nice, safe environment for me. Shea Kidd Brown (04:58): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:59): And I still… fond memories and still have some of my best friends from that area- Shea Kidd Brown (05:03): Wow. Kim Lewellen (05:03): … and, uh, are there, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (05:05): So, did your parents golf as well? Kim Lewellen (05:07): Mm-hmm, my father was a very, very good golfer. Shea Kidd Brown (05:09): Okay. Kim Lewellen (05:09): My mother did not, but she could tell you everything about it just by default, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (05:11): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (05:13): I live on Faculty Drive- Shea Kidd Brown (05:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (05:14): … which is a pitching wedge from our golf facility. Shea Kidd Brown (05:17): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (05:18): So, very close. Shea Kidd Brown (05:18): Very close. Kim Lewellen (05:19): And on the 13th, tee box of Old Town, which is our- Shea Kidd Brown (05:20): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (05:21): … where we play. And since I’ve moved here, a really neat story for those that know Coach Dailey, Dianne Dailey- Shea Kidd Brown (05:27): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (05:27): … performing. She’s one of my closest friends. Was, obviously, an instigator in me being here but- Shea Kidd Brown (05:31): I like that word, instigator, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (05:34): (laughs), uh, you know, but she said, when this house came available on Faculty Drive. Shea Kidd Brown (05:37): Got it. Kim Lewellen (05:37): Yeah, you got it. Shea Kidd Brown (05:37): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (05:38): Yeah, grab this house. Shea Kidd Brown (05:39): Right. Kim Lewellen (05:40): It’s just right where you need to be. And we were fortunate, we grabbed that and built an addition for my mom. Shea Kidd Brown (05:45): Aw, wonderful. Kim Lewellen (05:46): So my, my father passed a, a while ago, but now she lives here with us and, and she’s the biggest golf fan. Shea Kidd Brown (05:52): Oh, I’m sure. Kim Lewellen (05:52): And she knows every one of my players. Shea Kidd Brown (05:53): Of course. Kim Lewellen (05:54): She’s like, I walk in and she’ll say, “Now, why did so and so not do so well…” Shea Kidd Brown (05:57): Oh, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (05:59): “… and you need a… what are you gonna do about it?” Yeah, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (06:01): I was gonna say, it’s certainly yours to fix, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (06:04): Right, exactly, (laughs). So, it’s been a big part of, uh, my life. Shea Kidd Brown (06:06): Yeah, and what a full circle in terms of that’s how you grew up with a golf course across the street, and now- Kim Lewellen (06:11): Yeah, mm-hmm, oh yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (06:12): … coaching stuff still, you can, you know, see it- Kim Lewellen (06:13): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (06:13): … um, in a distance. Kim Lewellen (06:13): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (06:16): So, that’s really cool. Now, there’s a lot that I wanna unpack that you just shared, (laughs), like, what kind of kid were you? Were you quiet, outgoing? What other interests did you have? Kim Lewellen (06:26): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (06:26): Do you remember? Kim Lewellen (06:27): And I think a lot of people are probably like this. You are outgoing in the places that you’re comfortable, right? Shea Kidd Brown (06:33): Yeah, true. Kim Lewellen (06:34): So, it was very comfortable in the golf course. Shea Kidd Brown (06:34): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (06:35): So, I was outgoing on the golf course. I met my husband on the golf course- Shea Kidd Brown (06:39): Okay. Kim Lewellen (06:39): … but had known him… we went to elementary school together- Shea Kidd Brown (06:43): You hadn’t se- Kim Lewellen (06:43): … but I had never had the courage to talk to him. Shea Kidd Brown (06:44): Oh, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (06:49): N- (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (06:49): So- Kim Lewellen (06:49): He, he was, sort of, the cool kid. Shea Kidd Brown (06:50): Okay. Kim Lewellen (06:50): All right, he was the cool kid. Shea Kidd Brown (06:50): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (06:50): Uh, played all the sports. At school, I was to myself- Shea Kidd Brown (06:54): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (06:54): … and actually just looked forward to getting home to go to the golf course, right? And to my- Shea Kidd Brown (06:57): Right, to your, back to your people. Kim Lewellen (06:58): … ba- back to my people. Fast-forward till we were 20 years old, and I had met him a few times again throughout my young adult life. At 20, he was at the golf course, and again, that was my place. Shea Kidd Brown (07:08): Right. Kim Lewellen (07:09): So, then I’m out-, outgoing Shea Kidd Brown (07:10): Then you show him something. Kim Lewellen (07:11): “Hey, can I play golf with you?” Shea Kidd Brown (07:12): (laughs), yeah, “Let me show you something.” Kim Lewellen (07:13): You know, pretended like I didn’t know who he was- Shea Kidd Brown (07:14): Right. Kim Lewellen (07:14): … knew nothing about it- Shea Kidd Brown (07:14): Right. Kim Lewellen (07:15): … but I could tell you everything about it. Shea Kidd Brown (07:17): Uh, and you were quite good at that point, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (07:22): And that… right, and then that was my, but that was my, uh, place. So, I think on the golf course or wherever- Shea Kidd Brown (07:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (07:23): … I’m very comfortable. Shea Kidd Brown (07:25): Sure. Kim Lewellen (07:25): I’m very outgoing, but, like, us all, if there’s something I’m not real familiar with- Shea Kidd Brown (07:29): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (07:30): … a situation that is a little uncomfortable, I, I’m probably about like everybody else. Shea Kidd Brown (07:33): Yeah, sort of an observer. Kim Lewellen (07:34): You know, just, sort of, an observer- Shea Kidd Brown (07:35): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (07:36): … taking it in. But yeah, as a coach and, and probably in your similar, there are times that you have to be outgoing. Shea Kidd Brown (07:42): Sure. Kim Lewellen (07:42): Your comfort zone may not be that. Shea Kidd Brown (07:43): Mm-hmm, yeah. Kim Lewellen (07:44): I say, “Come on, Kim.” Shea Kidd Brown (07:45): The role- Kim Lewellen (07:45): I’ve got to coach myself- Shea Kidd Brown (07:46): Yeah, yeah, that’s right, the role- Kim Lewellen (07:47): … “I got this. I got this.” I can walk into this situation and do it, so. Shea Kidd Brown (07:50): … requires that, yeah, I heard someone say, once upon a time, they are a flextrovert, (laughs), and so- Kim Lewellen (07:52): Yeah, I love that, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (07:56): … you had to be able to turn it on when they have to, and when you’re in posi- Kim Lewellen (07:58): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (07:59): … positional leadership, you, sort of, have to agree to that. Many would probably categorize as both, as outgoing, but there are moments when you’re always on where you need just- Kim Lewellen (08:09): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (08:09): … Kim time, or Shea time, a moment, right? Kim Lewellen (08:10): (laughs), and to trust. Shea Kidd Brown (08:11): Exactly. Be yourself. Kim Lewellen (08:11): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (08:13): Yeah. And you said you’re an only child? Kim Lewellen (08:14): So I’m an only child. Father, he did retire early, which… when I was 16, we would go play golf every afternoon. Shea Kidd Brown (08:22): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (08:22): So, other hobbies, probably golf, golf, and golf. Shea Kidd Brown (08:24): (laughs), yeah. Kim Lewellen (08:25): And I still… when, um, I’m getting ready to go to bed, I’m still looking at golf swings. Shea Kidd Brown (08:30): Yeah, uh. Kim Lewellen (08:30): And just that’s, sort of, what I like to do. Shea Kidd Brown (08:31): Right. Kim Lewellen (08:31): And I like to be with friends and family. Shea Kidd Brown (08:33): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (08:34): And I enjoy vacations with family and friends. Shea Kidd Brown (08:37): Sure. Kim Lewellen (08:37): And being around the… my players. Didn’t branch out much, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (08:40): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (08:43): Hey, I was majorette for a hot minute. Shea Kidd Brown (08:44): Oh, really? Kim Lewellen (08:45): But, um, and I wasn’t very good at it, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (08:46): Didn’t catch on, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (08:49): Yeah, exac- uh, actually, I didn’t catch on at all. Shea Kidd Brown (08:50): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (08:51): So, so no pun i- there is a pun intended, you know, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (08:54): That’s so funny. What you were describing to me is passion- Kim Lewellen (08:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (08:58): Like, when we’re passionate about something, even when you’re thinking about something else, you can make those connections. Kim Lewellen (09:02): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (09:03): Like, my friends joke with me and even my husband sometimes, like, for me, beach books are, like, leadership, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (09:10): Yes, yes. Shea Kidd Brown (09:10): Something where I’m, taking a concept, and so I’m not really good at just a beach read. Kim Lewellen (09:14): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (09:15): I have to have something substantive that I can bring- Kim Lewellen (09:18): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:18): … back to what I love, which is- Kim Lewellen (09:19): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (09:20): … the college experience and human development and, and all those sorts of things. Kim Lewellen (09:23): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:24): So, I very much understand. Kim Lewellen (09:25): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:26): And you will appreciate that golf is on at my house a lot, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (09:28): Oh, good, oh, good. Shea Kidd Brown (09:31): So, my husband is a huge fan of yours. Kim Lewellen (09:32): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (09:32): He actually participated in the board event for spouses, and- Kim Lewellen (09:37): Yes, it was, it was, uh- Shea Kidd Brown (09:38): So, he got to go- Kim Lewellen (09:38): Oh, nice, oh yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:40): … and see the facilities, meet some of the women, and I think I told you we went to the US Open when he was here- Kim Lewellen (09:45): Yes, yes. Shea Kidd Brown (09:46): … just, uh, in Pinehurst a few months ago. So, he is very much a big fan. Kim Lewellen (09:50): Oh, thanks. Shea Kidd Brown (09:50): So, I see it. And he loves sports, period. Kim Lewellen (09:52): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:52): But let’s say golf is what’s one, like- Kim Lewellen (09:54): Oh, I love that. Well, he needs to continue to come in and hang out because- Shea Kidd Brown (09:57): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (09:57): … what’s so nice, and you know this, but we’re fortunate to have such a nice golf men and women on the team- Shea Kidd Brown (10:03): Mm-hmm, right. Kim Lewellen (10:04): … and they end up usually playing, at least, half of them- Shea Kidd Brown (10:08): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (10:08): … professionally to where it’s so much fun to follow them- Shea Kidd Brown (10:10): That, that’s so fun. Kim Lewellen (10:11): … after where they get out to and, and watch them reach those dreams that they have so. Shea Kidd Brown (10:15): Yeah, and correspondence, and writing books, and, you know, (laughs), [inaudible 00:10:16]. Kim Lewellen (10:16): Oh, yeah, exactly, right? (laughs), exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (10:18): Yeah, it’s, it’s incredible to watch. So, we talked about childhood- Kim Lewellen (10:22): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (10:22): … a little bit about golf and how that came into your childhood and experience. And I love hearing about your dad and- Kim Lewellen (10:28): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (10:28): … those connections being a majorette, so- Kim Lewellen (10:29): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (10:29): … um, so I’m gonna fast-forward. Kim Lewellen (10:33): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:33): I’m sure there’s a lot of life we could talk about. Kim Lewellen (10:35): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

Maybe we could have a part two at some point. But you had a distinguished college career even before coaching. Kim Lewellen (10:40): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:41): So, I loved reading a little bit about that. So, will you share just a little bit about maybe some highlights from college- Kim Lewellen (10:48): Mm-hmm, mmh. Shea Kidd Brown (10:48): … and then what was that journey like to coaching? Kim Lewellen (10:50): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:50): So from playing, to- Kim Lewellen (10:51): Well, I went into college, probably a lot like a lot of students and student athletes do, uh, not sure what I wanna do. Shea Kidd Brown (10:58): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (10:59): I, I, I think I changed my major five times like we all do, right? Shea Kidd Brown (11:01): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (11:01): So, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (11:03): Like, we all- Kim Lewellen (11:04): Yeah, and then- Shea Kidd Brown (11:04): … students who are listening, like, we all do, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (11:06): (laughs), we all do, okay? You go in there thinking this way, and then you veer this way, and then end up in one direction. Uh, very normal, everybody, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (11:13): Yes, absolutely. Kim Lewellen (11:14): Uh- Shea Kidd Brown (11:14): And they need to hear that. Kim Lewellen (11:14): I know. Shea Kidd Brown (11:14): People, they need to hear that. Kim Lewellen (11:17): I know. I went to the University of North Carolina. At the time I was recruited, Wake didn’t have a coach at the time. Shea Kidd Brown (11:21): Okay. Kim Lewellen (11:22): And then Coach Dianne Dailey, who’s now- Shea Kidd Brown (11:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:24): … you know, one of my closest friends, got a job day one. And again, I’m from North Carolina, so she calls me up and says, “Hey, would you like to visit Wake?” Shea Kidd Brown (11:30): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:30): And I was like, “I just co- committed already…” Shea Kidd Brown (11:33): Oh, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (11:33): “… but, you know…” So I missed a little bit of that opportunity- Shea Kidd Brown (11:34): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:35): … because again, this is a great place, but it was fortunate. I had a wonderful experience at the University of North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (11:39): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:40): Became a really nice golfer there. And I think that’s one of the passions that I have for coaching is- Shea Kidd Brown (11:44): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:45): … I wanted to play at the highest level I could. Shea Kidd Brown (11:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:49): A- and I was fortunate enough to have coaches and people around me, and that supported me in that. I went in there thinking I wasn’t going to play professionally- Shea Kidd Brown (11:56): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (11:56): … or even use probably golf as a career, and then ended up playing very well, was an All American there, ranked actually number one going into the NCAAs. We didn’t win it- Shea Kidd Brown (12:05): Mm-hmm, yeah. Kim Lewellen (12:06): …. but we finished with being ranked really well. Shea Kidd Brown (12:08): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (12:08): And decided that I would do it for a living. And so I played professionally off and on up until my first child was born at the age of 30. Shea Kidd Brown (12:15): Wow. Is that what took you to- Kim Lewellen (12:17): It wasn’t successful enough to make a- Shea Kidd Brown (12:18): Okay. Kim Lewellen (12:18): … great living at it. Shea Kidd Brown (12:19): Uh-huh. Kim Lewellen (12:20): But enough that I still enjoyed it, and it was competitive. Shea Kidd Brown (12:23): Yeah, now is that what took you to Scotland? Kim Lewellen (12:24): My children were born. Shea Kidd Brown (12:26): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (12:26): A sabbatical from golf at that time. Shea Kidd Brown (12:28): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (12:28): And my husband was doing postgraduate work at the University of Edinburgh- Shea Kidd Brown (12:34): Oh. Kim Lewellen (12:34): … in theology. Shea Kidd Brown (12:35): Yes. Kim Lewellen (12:37): And so Søren Kierkegaard’s Works of Love was his- Shea Kidd Brown (12:39): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (12:39): … main subject at the time. Shea Kidd Brown (12:41): Wow. Kim Lewellen (12:41): Which was, uh, very interesting, by the way- Shea Kidd Brown (12:43): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (12:43): … for anybody that, that’s interested in, sort of, the philosophical views of Søren Kierkegaard, very interesting by the way, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (12:48): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (12:49): But anyway, so he did that and my children were very small, which gave me, which was wonderful, a time just to be a mom- Shea Kidd Brown (12:57): Right. Kim Lewellen (12:58): … and just to enjoy that moment of my life- Shea Kidd Brown (12:59): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (13:00): … ’cause I had always been playing professional sports- Shea Kidd Brown (13:02): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:02): … and focused on myself to be fair. Shea Kidd Brown (13:04): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (13:04): And so this allowed me to, to focus on being mom for about two and a half, three years. Shea Kidd Brown (13:08): And motherhood, it vanishes like that, that, especially that period of time. Kim Lewellen (13:11): It’s like that, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (13:11): It goes by so fast. Kim Lewellen (13:11): Yeah, yeah. And so then we moved back into the Charleston area and my husband took a job there at a church. I wanted to get back into the golf industry- Shea Kidd Brown (13:21): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:21): … wasn’t gonna anymore. Shea Kidd Brown (13:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:23): I was in a tennis match. It was a professional tennis match down in Daniel Island, and I look over, and Les Robinson, who was the athletic director for NC State when I was a kid- Shea Kidd Brown (13:32): Oh, wow, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (13:33): … so I noticed him, right? Shea Kidd Brown (13:34): Uh-huh. Kim Lewellen (13:34): And I’m like, “There’s Les Robinson.” You know? Shea Kidd Brown (13:36): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (13:37): And I was like, “He’s the AD at the Citadel. Like, I knew this for some reason. Shea Kidd Brown (13:40): Mmh, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:41): And I think my husband probably told me, he wa- he was sitting beside me and, say, “So, I wanna go talk to him.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:45): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (13:45): And just… I went up to him and I said, you know, “Hi, I’m Kim Lewellen. I love golf. Golf has been my background…” Shea Kidd Brown (13:50): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:50): “… if you need a men’s or women’s golf coach, just know that I’m in the area.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:53): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (13:54): He said, “Well, as of now, we don’t…” Shea Kidd Brown (13:56): Oh my God. Kim Lewellen (13:57): “… but would you be interested in marketing?” Shea Kidd Brown (13:57): Wow. Kim Lewellen (13:57): I guess, he goes, (laughs), yeah, yeah, he goes, “Come to my office tomorrow.” And I said, “Well, I’ll go to your office and we’ll talk but don’t know about marketing. I’ll hear you out.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:05): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (14:06): So anyway, long story short, few weeks later, he called and said, “There’s a men’s and women’s position open for the golf program.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:12): No way. Kim Lewellen (14:13): I was at the Citadel, which was right when women were first allowed to go. Shea Kidd Brown (14:17): Right, I was gonna say. Kim Lewellen (14:17): Started my, uh, coaching and my love of coaching and- Shea Kidd Brown (14:20): Right, wow. Kim Lewellen (14:21): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (14:21): Thank you for sharing that. I think so many lessons that can be learned from just being courageous- Kim Lewellen (14:28): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:29): … and starting a conversation, asking for what you need. Kim Lewellen (14:30): Yeah, there is some movie- Shea Kidd Brown (14:30): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (14:31): I don’t know what movie it is, but I played in my head all the time and it said, “Don’t be scared for those 10 seconds. Go do that…” Shea Kidd Brown (14:38): Right. Kim Lewellen (14:38): It… “Go take… be scared and nervous…” Shea Kidd Brown (14:40): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (14:41): “… or whatever it is to go make that move for 10 seconds.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:43): For those 10 seconds. Yeah, life changing. Kim Lewellen (14:44): It’s life changing. Shea Kidd Brown (14:45): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (14:46): I mean, if I hadn’t done that, I might not have been coaching, you know. Shea Kidd Brown (14:49): That’s wild, (laughs), that’s wild. Kim Lewellen (14:49): And so, right, right, right, right, so, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:52): And then to do so in such a groundbreaking way- Kim Lewellen (14:56): Ground breaking, yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:56): … you know, given the history of the Citadel. Kim Lewellen (14:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (14:58): I bet as your first coaching stint, you learned quite a bit. Kim Lewellen (15:00): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (15:01): Can you think back to lessons that you learned there? Kim Lewellen (15:03): Oh, oh, very much so. And one for just young people that are listening to this a- and wanting to get into jobs, it’s been interesting. You know, I didn’t think of it at the time, I was looking for a job in the golf industry. Shea Kidd Brown (15:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:14): Her first coaching job was at a military school- Shea Kidd Brown (15:16): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:16): … where you’re really not paid very well- Shea Kidd Brown (15:18): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:19): … and it’s very tough, and can you imagine recruiting, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (15:22): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (15:23): … women golfers into the military situation- Shea Kidd Brown (15:26): Into that, right. Kim Lewellen (15:26): … where they’re cutting their hair an inch, can’t wear any makeup- Shea Kidd Brown (15:29): No. Kim Lewellen (15:29): … they’re having to do boot camp- Shea Kidd Brown (15:31): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:31): … for the first month. They were like, “You took a risk…” Shea Kidd Brown (15:34): Totally. Kim Lewellen (15:34): “… and you did something completely out of your norm.” I think that’s a lesson to be learned. Shea Kidd Brown (15:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (15:39): Went in there, not necessarily confident, never coached. Shea Kidd Brown (15:42): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:43): Just learned a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (15:44): I bet, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (15:44): … from all of that that helped me move up the ladder. Shea Kidd Brown (15:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:48): And so I think a lesson learned is, don’t be scared of something that might look difficult- Shea Kidd Brown (15:53): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:53): … or that might be uncomfortable. Shea Kidd Brown (15:54): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (15:55): I, I had never been in the military or understood that. Shea Kidd Brown (15:57): (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (15:58): And I cut my hair, and- Shea Kidd Brown (15:59): Did you? Kim Lewellen (16:00): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:01): Oh, oh, was that something you were required to do, or- Kim Lewellen (16:03): No. Shea Kidd Brown (16:03): … you did it to be- Kim Lewellen (16:04): I did it because I didn’t wanna have the long hair- Shea Kidd Brown (16:07): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:07): … when my players were having to get their hair cut. Shea Kidd Brown (16:09): Yeah, um- Kim Lewellen (16:09): Uh, part of- Shea Kidd Brown (16:10): … appreciating the culture, and- Kim Lewellen (16:11): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (16:12): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:12): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (16:13): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:13): So I think that was a lesson learned that even taken throughout that- Shea Kidd Brown (16:17): Sure. Kim Lewellen (16:18): … don’t forget, you know, the hard stuff teaches you a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (16:22): Yeah, absolutely, well, that’s where the growth happens. Kim Lewellen (16:24): … and you al- you al- yeah, exactly, exactly, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (16:26): You know, it’s just, it’s just like coasting. I’m like, “Yeah, I’m completely happier. These are my people.” Kim Lewellen (16:29): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:29): I’ve always heard of people, there’s… that’s fun- Kim Lewellen (16:31): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:32): … but there’s not a lot of growth that happens now. Kim Lewellen (16:33): Growth, no. Shea Kidd Brown (16:33): So from the Citadel, you went to East Carolina. Kim Lewellen (16:38): Went to East Carolina. My oldest son is autistic and high functioning but also has some other developmental challenges. Shea Kidd Brown (16:46): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (16:46): And so we really started to notice it when we lived in that area, and we were fortunate in that area they have, uh, a children’s hospital- Shea Kidd Brown (16:54): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (16:54): It’s really helpful in identifying those. Shea Kidd Brown (16:56): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:56): And so at that time, we decided that we needed to move closer to home ’cause I also had my youngest son, too- Shea Kidd Brown (17:02): That community. Kim Lewellen (17:03): … needed, that needed my community, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (17:04): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (17:05): … to help me at a time to, sort of, figure out how to navigate some of this. Shea Kidd Brown (17:08): And how old was he? Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:08): Uh, he was four. Shea Kidd Brown (17:08): Okay. Kim Lewellen (17:11): And so we moved to Raleigh, North Carolina area. Shea Kidd Brown (17:13): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:14): And I was there at that moment, I was actually doing some freelancing things with the golf channel- Shea Kidd Brown (17:21): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (17:21): … which was working well with my schedule that I needed to with my son. Shea Kidd Brown (17:24): Right. Kim Lewellen (17:25): We were just, sort of, looking for the next thing that we were gonna do, but being with… where we needed to be at that moment. Shea Kidd Brown (17:29): A certain radius. Kim Lewellen (17:30): Right, um, because both my in-laws and my parents were there. So East Carolina came available. And one of my friends that I had met in the coaching realms when I was at the Citadel calls me and says, “Kim, just go look at it…” Shea Kidd Brown (17:42): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:42): ‘… you know, I think you’ll be able to do this, continue to do some of your Golf Channel stuff.” Shea Kidd Brown (17:47): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:47): Which was allowing some income. Shea Kidd Brown (17:49): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:49): ‘Cause back then coaches are to support a family, right? Shea Kidd Brown (17:52): Right. Kim Lewellen (17:53): And so I could still do some of that, while I’m having s- a little bit more time with my son. Shea Kidd Brown (17:57): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:58): I mean, just, sort of, figuring out what to do. So I went to East Carolina, we were very successful really quickly. Shea Kidd Brown (18:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:05): They won their conference championship, and it was the first one they’d ever won. I don’t think they’ve won one since, (laughs), starting with- Shea Kidd Brown (18:11): Wow, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (18:13): Shh, don’t… so… but Coach Williams, you’re really, really good, but- Shea Kidd Brown (18:15): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (18:15): And I love you, and I wouldn’t be where I am without you. So, my coaching kept evolving. Shea Kidd Brown (18:19): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (18:19): You know, ’cause at the Citadel was a different level. You’re having folks that are shooting 90 and you’re trying to get them to break 80. Shea Kidd Brown (18:24): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:24): Well, then you’re at East Carolina- Shea Kidd Brown (18:25): (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (18:26): … these are really nice golfers and you’re trying to get them to break 75. Shea Kidd Brown (18:28): Yeah, improvement, but different. Kim Lewellen (18:29): And always in… but different. And so I think my coaching skills, again, were improving. Shea Kidd Brown (18:35): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:35): And I was learning a lot through that situation. Shea Kidd Brown (18:37): Right, and probably through the players you were having to sharpen. Kim Lewellen (18:40): Exactly, to sharpen. Shea Kidd Brown (18:40): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (18:41): You know, you’re starting to have to be better at my craft- Shea Kidd Brown (18:43): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:44): … because now I have people asking me questions that are close to knowing more than me, right? Shea Kidd Brown (18:48): (laughs), ri- right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (18:48): (laughs), and, and then you’re like, “Ah, better know, you know.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:48): Uh oh, (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (18:52): After East Carolina, things had gotten where we had a better grasp about my son- Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:57): … and Virginia called and again, communities, athletic communities, just like education- Shea Kidd Brown (19:03): So small. Kim Lewellen (19:03): Network, network, network, everybody network- Shea Kidd Brown (19:04): Yes, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (19:05): … because Les Robinson, who I had met at the Citadel, who was Athletic Director- Shea Kidd Brown (19:09): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (19:09): … Terry Holland was at East Carolina, and he had been the Athletic Director of Virginia. Shea Kidd Brown (19:13): Wow. Kim Lewellen (19:13): So, Virginia comes open and he’s like, “I don’t want her to leave, but it’s a great opportunity.” Shea Kidd Brown (19:18): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (19:19): So, they hired me at Virginia. Shea Kidd Brown (19:20): Okay. Kim Lewellen (19:20): So again, it was just networking. Shea Kidd Brown (19:22): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (19:22): I was at Virginia for 12 years, and, and really enjoyed Charlottesville. Shea Kidd Brown (19:25): A good town. Kim Lewellen (19:26): My kids grew up there. My… both sons had great educations. Both very, very different. My youngest son is at Wake now. He’ll be a senior. Shea Kidd Brown (19:38): Oh, yes, what a year, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (19:38): So, (laughs), he’ll be a senior. Shea Kidd Brown (19:38): Wow, I love all those journeys to very different institutions, I would say, all four- Kim Lewellen (19:42): Yeah, ver- mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:44): … very different. And I wanna talk about Wake, but I… each thread, before Wake, you talk about family, you talk about the importance of your people. I’m curious, what life lessons from golf- Kim Lewellen (19:56): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:57): … and how have you seen the lessons that golf teach, sort of, inform how you live your life? Kim Lewellen (20:02): Yeah, oh yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:03): Does that make sense? Yeah. Kim Lewellen (20:04): Yeah, I think it’s a great question, and I think that I am fortunate to have, in my back pocket or my toolbox- Shea Kidd Brown (20:10): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:10): … meaning, when I played golf, I didn’t start off an All American. Shea Kidd Brown (20:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:14): I was actually, probably, out of the five people starters on my team, I was probably, when I started, I was four and five. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:22): But then checking all the boxes, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (20:25): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:25): … thinking through any craft that you have, or whether you’re a mom, or you’re a businesswoman, or you’re a leader, whatever it is, just checking the boxes. Are you the best you can be technically at what you’re doing? Shea Kidd Brown (20:37): Mmh, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:38): Whatever your technique is, whether it’s a computer skill, or if it’s a speaking skill, or whatever, are you the best at that? Shea Kidd Brown (20:43): Right. Kim Lewellen (20:43): Are you preparing the best that you can? Shea Kidd Brown (20:45): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (20:46): Are you in the best physical shape for whatever you’re having to do? Shea Kidd Brown (20:48): Right. Kim Lewellen (20:49): Is your mental sustainability the best that it can be? You know. Shea Kidd Brown (20:52): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:52): Just checking all of the boxes that I needed to do in order to be a great golfer- Shea Kidd Brown (20:58): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (20:58): … has transformed into whatever that I’ve had to do. Shea Kidd Brown (21:01): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (21:01): Whether it was coaching, check all those boxes that are similar- Shea Kidd Brown (21:05): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (21:06): … you know, having a checklist of constantly keeping yourself accountable with all of those things I learned from golf. Shea Kidd Brown (21:12): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (21:13): And then in golf, you fail all the time, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (21:16): All the time, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (21:16): You know, I mean- Shea Kidd Brown (21:16): I know. Kim Lewellen (21:17): … there’s 140 players and the odds of you winning, think about it- Shea Kidd Brown (21:21): I know. Kim Lewellen (21:21): … you guys, you’re beat up constantly, and you don’t win. Shea Kidd Brown (21:24): All the time, it’s so humbling, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (21:24): It’s so humbling, (laughs). And so I give- Shea Kidd Brown (21:24): Especially if you’re not good, like me, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (21:30): Right, right? And, uh, (laughs)… Well, so I think that learning how to lose and not to take that as a personal attack, right? You know. Shea Kidd Brown (21:36): Sure, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (21:37): It’s like, “Okay, do what I wanted to do. What do I need to do to get back to where I want to?” Shea Kidd Brown (21:42): Yeah, yeah. Kim Lewellen (21:42): Being able to sustain some difficulties over, and over, and over again. Shea Kidd Brown (21:46): (laughs), [inaudible 00:21:47]. Kim Lewellen (21:47): And get back out there, you know, and one of my favorite bosses, named Jane Miller, when I first started coaching and she said, “Kim…” She goes, “… you gotta get up every single morning and think, ‘Okay, what problem will I solve today?'” Shea Kidd Brown (21:57): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (21:58): And if you go out with the mindset of what problem I’ll solve every day- Shea Kidd Brown (22:02): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (22:02): …. nothing surprises you.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:03): Yeah, that’s good. Kim Lewellen (22:03): And you’re ready to go. Shea Kidd Brown (22:04): Right, right- Kim Lewellen (22:05): And I think golf taught me that. Shea Kidd Brown (22:06): Not a, “I hope nothing happens to me.” (laughs). Kim Lewellen (22:08): No, no, oh gosh, something happened, I just said, “Oh gosh, my whole world’s gone down.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:10): Yeah, right, right, that’s good. Kim Lewellen (22:12): Do you know what I mean? But just be ready for it. Shea Kidd Brown (22:13): Right. Well, in which you described as a practice, I think people may look at you and think, “She’s so great.” Kim Lewellen (22:19): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (22:19): And you are so great, but there is very… you just described very specific practices- Kim Lewellen (22:25): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:25): … that have had to exist- Kim Lewellen (22:26): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:27): … that you, you learned from the sport. Kim Lewellen (22:27): Right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:27): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (22:30): And I think another one that, that I love and, and I enjoy talking about this ’cause I don’t really think about it that much until you ask the question. Shea Kidd Brown (22:36): (laughs), yeah. Kim Lewellen (22:36): I’ve gotten this from a book and… but that is when you are feeling like everything’s okay. Like, that moment when everything’s okay in your life, that’s when you need to build your armor up. Shea Kidd Brown (22:45): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (22:45): Right? So you need to make sure you’re as healthy as you can be. Shea Kidd Brown (22:49): Right. Kim Lewellen (22:49): That your mind is clear where it can be. Shea Kidd Brown (22:51): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (22:52): That’s when you do your meditations, or that’s when you go for your walks Shea Kidd Brown (22:55): Right. Kim Lewellen (22:56): At the time when everything’s okay- Shea Kidd Brown (22:57): Okay. Kim Lewellen (22:59): … build your armor for the time when it’s not. Shea Kidd Brown (23:01): Not, year. Kim Lewellen (23:02): So, you’re ready for it. Shea Kidd Brown (23:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (23:04): And I think, um, you know, sport taught me that, I think life taught me that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:07): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:08): I think coaching has taught me that. And I think- Shea Kidd Brown (23:09): Right, and the motherhood, your journey with your son. Kim Lewellen (23:11): You know, I… another piece that- Shea Kidd Brown (23:12): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (23:12): … when I’m going in a great spell, build my armor. Shea Kidd Brown (23:15): You’re ready, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:15): You know. Shea Kidd Brown (23:16): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (23:16): For the time that it’s not, so. Shea Kidd Brown (23:18): Yeah, that’s so important because I think the human condition is to coast a little bit when it’s calm, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:22): E- right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (23:23): But not to prepare, and- Kim Lewellen (23:24): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:25): And I think of what you talked about as grounding, like, getting that sense of grounding, whether that comes from faith, or a value system- Kim Lewellen (23:32): Exactly, uh-huh, exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (23:32): …. um, your people, your exercise, your technical skills that you talked about. Kim Lewellen (23:37): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:37): So, that’s good. I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that one, too, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:38): (laughs), I like that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:38): It’s rarely calm, but, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (23:41): [inaudible 00:23:41] toolbox, (laughs), yeah, you have a toolbox. Shea Kidd Brown (23:42): Yeah, you do. Kim Lewellen (23:42): You do. Shea Kidd Brown (23:42): You do, yeah. Kim Lewellen (23:42): You do, you do. Shea Kidd Brown (23:45): So you talked about Dianne Dailey several times. Kim Lewellen (23:47): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (23:48): And we, kind of, stopped at the, the Wake experience. Kim Lewellen (23:50): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (23:50): So, let’s talk about that. I wanna know when she became a part of your life because- Kim Lewellen (23:55): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:55): … based on what you’ve talked about, that was early on. Kim Lewellen (23:58): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:59): And what was the- entering the Wake experience like? Kim Lewellen (24:02): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (24:02): I’m asking you a bunch of questions all at once. Kim Lewellen (24:04): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:05): And what’s it like to follow someone like that? Kim Lewellen (24:08): Yeah, that… right, right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (24:08): Okay. Kim Lewellen (24:09): Well, first of all, like I said, I first met coach Dailey when I was a player at the University of North Carolina, sort of- Shea Kidd Brown (24:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:15): … in the recruiting process for a- [inaudible 00:24:15]. Shea Kidd Brown (24:16): Okay, oh, so that was when y’all met? Kim Lewellen (24:18): Whe- that’s when I first met… Shea Kidd Brown (24:19): Okay, gotcha. Kim Lewellen (24:19): But then when I played at North Carolina, she was coaching at Virginia. Shea Kidd Brown (24:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:23): And, uh, my coach and, and her were good friends. Shea Kidd Brown (24:26): Okay. Kim Lewellen (24:26): So, we could see the interaction- Shea Kidd Brown (24:27): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:27): … just knew of her. Golf is very social- Shea Kidd Brown (24:30): Sure. Kim Lewellen (24:30): … and so you do know other coaches. You’re not on two separate parts of the court- Shea Kidd Brown (24:34): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:34): … and you shake hands. And that’s at the end. Shea Kidd Brown (24:36): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (24:36): I mean, you’re almost living with people a lot. Shea Kidd Brown (24:37): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (24:38): And that’s even within the team. So, met her there. And then when life went a different way than coaching, I didn’t know her well at that time in my life. Shea Kidd Brown (24:46): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:46): But then when I started coaching, mostly at East Carolina, not quite at the Citadel yet, that’s when I started really calling her and talking to her. Shea Kidd Brown (24:53): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:54): And she was a mentor to me. Shea Kidd Brown (24:54): Okay. Kim Lewellen (24:55): And she’s been a mentor to not only her players, but coaches, and the community, to me. Shea Kidd Brown (24:59): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (24:59): Wake Forest, just unbelievable mentor. Shea Kidd Brown (25:02): Sure. Kim Lewellen (25:02): And still today, she’s on my speed dial- Shea Kidd Brown (25:05): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (25:06): … and she’s on my favorites. Shea Kidd Brown (25:07): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:07): And anytime that I need help- Shea Kidd Brown (25:09): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (25:09): … she’s still the first person I call. I probably need to call her more just to have lunch. Shea Kidd Brown (25:13): (laughs), yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:18): Sorry, Coach, (laughs). Um, oh, and, and it’s usually more- Shea Kidd Brown (25:18): “Hey, I’ve got this thing-” Kim Lewellen (25:18): “Hey, I’ve got this thing that I need help with.” Shea Kidd Brown (25:19): Right. Kim Lewellen (25:19): And I would say, you know, I get this question a lot. How is it to follow her? First of all, it’s always a little scary because, you know, she’s a legend. Shea Kidd Brown (25:26): Sure. Kim Lewellen (25:26): And… but I think more importantly, I, I still don’t feel like I’m following. I still feel like we do this together. Shea Kidd Brown (25:30): Mmh, yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:31): Do you know? And I think ’cause I do use her so much for advice and help, I see her five times a week. Shea Kidd Brown (25:37): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (25:37): I think we still do this together more than me- Shea Kidd Brown (25:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:39): … uh, following her, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:40): Yeah, well, and, and that’s special because that’s not usual. Kim Lewellen (25:43): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:43): You know, e- it’s, I think a lot of times when you’re succeeding someone, it’s maybe different in the athletics world. Kim Lewellen (25:50): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (25:50): You can tell me this is otherwise, but sometimes you’re just ships passing and you know each other because you’re in the same industry, but you don’t get to really have that relationship with your predecessor. Kim Lewellen (26:00): Yes, yes, yes. And I would think you’re right, as most of the time, unless it’s a retirement situation- Shea Kidd Brown (26:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:05): … like it was with Coach Dailey, I… it can be more organic like it was. Shea Kidd Brown (26:07): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:08): But I think in some positions, uh, it isn’t as organic. Shea Kidd Brown (26:11): Right. Kim Lewellen (26:12): You know, somebody might have left for another job. Shea Kidd Brown (26:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:14): Or someone might have been let go- Shea Kidd Brown (26:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:15): … or, or something like that. And at that time it can be harder to have that personal relationship. Shea Kidd Brown (26:20): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:20): So, I’m fortunate that in the way that it has since I’ve been here. Shea Kidd Brown (26:23): Yeah. Can you think of, I’d struggle to say best or favorite, but some pieces of advice she’s given you over the years that- Kim Lewellen (26:31): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (26:31): … really you hold on to. Kim Lewellen (26:33): Mm-hmm. I would say nothing like specific advice. Like, she’s not one to give, I’m gonna say it like- Shea Kidd Brown (26:39): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:39): … a quote that you’d read out of the book that you’re like, “Oh my gosh I love that, I gotta highlight it.” Right? Shea Kidd Brown (26:43): Right. Kim Lewellen (26:43): She’s more just by example, you know. Shea Kidd Brown (26:46): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (26:46): She always calls student athletes, “students,” – “These are my students. These are my students.” Shea Kidd Brown (26:52): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (26:52): And so that’s something that I catch myself a lot of times wanting to take from her. Shea Kidd Brown (26:55): Yeah, yeah. Kim Lewellen (26:55): Do you know what I mean? That they are student athletes, but they’re just students. Shea Kidd Brown (26:57): They’re just students. Kim Lewellen (26:58): And so- Shea Kidd Brown (26:58): And it helps you to see their humanity, too. Kim Lewellen (27:00): Exactly. You know, ’cause I see a lot of the golf piece. Shea Kidd Brown (27:04): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (27:04): So, I need to realize some of the other pieces. Shea Kidd Brown (27:05): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:06): So things that I just observe and watch, not necessarily her giving advice. But the way that she uses the community of Wake Forest, the way that she would involve the professors- Shea Kidd Brown (27:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:16): … and that she would talk about the professors and all of the special pieces of the Wake Forest community that make it so different. Shea Kidd Brown (27:25): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:25): Just how she’s embraced that and used that to help our student athletes- Shea Kidd Brown (27:29): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:30): … students as she would call them. So, I think it’s more, um, of a model- Shea Kidd Brown (27:33): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (27:34): … than what she would do by actually saying. Shea Kidd Brown (27:36): Well, aren’t those the best mentors? Kim Lewellen (27:39): They are, (laughs), they are. Shea Kidd Brown (27:39): It’s, it’s, like, even what you described, it sounds like, I’ve called this, “organic mentorship” that I know someone in my field, and I just call them, and I say, “Hey, I’ve got this challenge.” Or, “Will you help me think through this?” Or, “I bombed this today.” And over time, we’ve formed this relationship. I never said, “Hey, will you be my mentor?” (laughs). Kim Lewellen (27:57): Right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (27:57): It just happens, yeah, yeah. Kim Lewellen (27:58): It happens, yeah, uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (27:59): It’s really special. Kim Lewellen (28:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (28:00): Oh, and you talk a lot about her, but I see a lot in you, you know- Kim Lewellen (28:04): Aw. Shea Kidd Brown (28:05): … you are such an important figure on our campus. And when I saw you at the Pit, you were hosting a camp- Kim Lewellen (28:11): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (28:11): … you know, sometimes golf can feel hard to break into, exclusive- Kim Lewellen (28:18): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (28:18): … and think camps create this access. So- Kim Lewellen (28:21): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (28:21): … can you talk a little bit about, you know, what’s your approach to helping people break into it, (laughs), who might feel scared Kim Lewellen (28:26): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (28:26): … myself included- Kim Lewellen (28:26): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (28:26): … who might, who might feel scared and what do you share with people, or what do you model- Kim Lewellen (28:33): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (28:33): … um, or try to model as it relates to that? Kim Lewellen (28:35): Uh-huh, we’ve come a long way within our sport. Shea Kidd Brown (28:37): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (28:38): Which I’ve loved to see, especially in women’s sport. Shea Kidd Brown (28:41): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (28:41): You know, you’re noticing now that golf courses are opening up? Right? Shea Kidd Brown (28:45): Yes. Kim Lewellen (28:45): Uh, or when I was growing up, there’d be times that it was an all men’s course, and, uh, women were only allowed at a certain time. Shea Kidd Brown (28:52): Certain times. Kim Lewellen (28:53): And so it’s been nice to see that open up. Uh, so I think that a lot of that, don’t be scared because now things are opened up. Shea Kidd Brown (29:01): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (29:01): And so feel comfortable. E- it’s like anything, if I walked into a leadership conference- Shea Kidd Brown (29:06): (laughs), mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (29:07): … I would be hesitant, “A- am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? Am I…” Shea Kidd Brown (29:10): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (29:11): And so all of that is a learning curve. Shea Kidd Brown (29:13): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (29:14): When you do anything for the first time, or the, for the tenth time even- Shea Kidd Brown (29:18): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (29:18): … there’s such a learning curve. Shea Kidd Brown (29:21): Right, and it’s uncomfortable. I’m like- Kim Lewellen (29:21): It is uncomfortable, yeah, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (29:23): Like, I took golf lessons, (laughs), for the first time last summer. Kim Lewellen (29:25): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): I like to be good at things. Kim Lewellen (29:25): Yeah, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): And I’m not good at this at all. Kim Lewellen (29:29): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:29): And it’s… you almost wanna just say, nevermind. Kim Lewellen (29:32): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:32): Especially the older you get. Kim Lewellen (29:33): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:33): You know, but to be comfortable with that, Kim Lewellen (29:36): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:36): And, and you, you’ll appreciate this as a coach, like, all those technical things that you need to do with your body. And then it’s relaxed. Kim Lewellen (29:41): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (29:42): And I’m like, (laughs), “How, how in the world am I supposed to relax?” (laughs). Kim Lewellen (29:42): Am I gonna relax? You know, I know, you know. But e- Shea Kidd Brown (29:47): If you can get it, you get the ball just right, like, if you get that- Kim Lewellen (29:50): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:52): Yeah, yeah… and I think it’s like… if you think of it as any task that you’re learning, yeah, you know, the first time we’re flossing our teeth. Kim Lewellen (29:56): Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s not easy. Do you know what I mean? Shea Kidd Brown (29:58): It might hurt, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (29:58): It’s like, where… I might hurt, am I going deep enough? Shea Kidd Brown (30:00): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (30:01): You know, but now we just do it. Through the practice, it does help. Shea Kidd Brown (30:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (30:05): I would challenge anybody to do a camp, do a clinic. If it’s ladies, or men, or juniors, find a clinic where there’s more than just one- Shea Kidd Brown (30:12): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (30:13): … ’cause that’s fun. And then meeting people that are in the same boat and is just as uncomfortable as you are. Shea Kidd Brown (30:17): Sure. Kim Lewellen (30:17): Figure out a way to practice swinging a golf club outside your backyard as part of your workout, or- Shea Kidd Brown (30:24): Yeah, ’cause it’s necessary. Kim Lewellen (30:24): ‘Cause it’s hard, you know, that’s golf. Shea Kidd Brown (30:24): My husband says, “You know, I got to go practice.” You know. Kim Lewellen (30:26): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (30:27): But it’s true. Kim Lewellen (30:28): Really. Shea Kidd Brown (30:28): Having learned at least some basics, I recognize go a whole year, you haven’t swing a club- Kim Lewellen (30:33): And you don’t want… no. Shea Kidd Brown (30:33): … you know, it’s like starting over. Kim Lewellen (30:34): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (30:35): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (30:35): So, it’s like anything, if… you gotta do a little bit each day so you can figure out how to do it, [inaudible 00:30:39]. Shea Kidd Brown (30:40): Yeah, (laughs), that’s true. Wow. Kim Lewellen (30:40): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (30:40): Well, maybe I’ll, uh, come see, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (30:42): ‘Cause see… yeah, I’d love that. And you’re welcome anytime. Shea Kidd Brown (30:48): Yeah, I need to do it. Kim Lewellen (30:48): I would love that, and your husband, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (30:48): Okay, I will tell him. You know, so as we start to bring our conversation to a close, I am curious just about the Wake experience. Kim Lewellen (30:54): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (30:54): Well, if you’ve had such success here- Kim Lewellen (30:56): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (30:57): … and I think you’ve created a lot of interest in the sport- Kim Lewellen (31:01): Uh-huh, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (31:02): … because of your success. So, what inspires you here? What makes this experience so special? Kim Lewellen (31:09): Uh-huh. As we all, when somebody says Wake Forest University, they say community, right? Shea Kidd Brown (31:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:15): They say the community of people. We’re an intimate community. We’re not a dime a dozen. Shea Kidd Brown (31:20): No. Kim Lewellen (31:21): I noticed that day one being here, the welcoming that I had. Shea Kidd Brown (31:25): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:25): Anyone was willing to help me. Everybody wanting to come and get to know me. Shea Kidd Brown (31:29): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:30): And that was different. Shea Kidd Brown (31:30): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (31:31): You know, I mean, I’ve been other places and it’s taken a few years to walk into somewhere and there’s like, “Hey, Coach, how you doing?” Shea Kidd Brown (31:37): (laughs). Kim Lewellen (31:37): Or, I’m a two days in here- Shea Kidd Brown (31:40): Wow, (laughs), wow. Kim Lewellen (31:41): … and, “Hey Coach, how are you doing? You know. And I think any time that you have that many people that are supporting you, that many people that are interested in what you’re doing. Shea Kidd Brown (31:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:48): They end up being your people. Shea Kidd Brown (31:49): Sure. Kim Lewellen (31:50): And you don’t wanna let your people down. Shea Kidd Brown (31:55): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:55): You know, and so I think that the people around me and the community here at Wake Forest, and they’re the ones that I get up every morning, and that’s my student athletes included. Shea Kidd Brown (32:01): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (32:02): It’s students, as Coach would say. I don’t wanna let them down. Shea Kidd Brown (32:05): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (32:06): And so, uh, you know, you get up every morning and say, “What can I do to help the community better because they’ve been so good to me.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:10): Yeah, one of my colleagues, who’s at the University of Maryland, talks about knowing and being known. Kim Lewellen (32:15): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:15): And it’s really what you just said, like, to be in a new place, and people don’t realize, when you’re new, it feels the same, like, regardless of what position you’re in- Kim Lewellen (32:23): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (32:24): … ’cause you don’t know where the grocery store is.

Kim Lewellen (32:25): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:26): The basic aspects, and your… Wake Forest has a huge legacy of… around golf, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (32:32): Right, right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (32:32): You know, with, with Arnold Palmer. Kim Lewellen (32:32): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:33): And a big statue. Kim Lewellen (32:34): Yeah, (laughs), exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (32:34): You, you know, a, a lot, and that resonates with me in terms of you care about this place. Kim Lewellen (32:39): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (32:40): And you want it to be successful, you’re now a part of it. I don’t know about for you, for me, Pro Humanitate is just through and through. Kim Lewellen (32:47): Yes. Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (32:47): So, how have you seen that play out- Kim Lewellen (32:49): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (32:49): … in, in terms of who we are? And, I guess, what does it mean to you, too, is maybe a follow-up. Kim Lewellen (32:54): Mm-hmm. Uh, what does it mean to me? I mean, I would say every, every time that you wake up, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (32:57): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (32:57): … you’re wanting to better and be a help to the person in front of you. Shea Kidd Brown (33:02): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (33:02): You wanna help them reach their goals. You wanna do it where their environment that is helpful, not harmful. And think that hopefully, I can do that, but I know that the professors, a student walks into their classroom, and they can look in their face, and they can actually see if they’re having a good day or a bad day. Shea Kidd Brown (33:19): Mmh, yeah. Kim Lewellen (33:19): … or this person’s really good at this. Shea Kidd Brown (33:21): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (33:21): I’ve heard this so many times from one of my players, “Professor said I was really good at this, and I should pursue this in this way.” Shea Kidd Brown (33:27): Wow, and that’s powerful, when you hear that. Kim Lewellen (33:27): And that’s powerful from a professor or someone like that. Shea Kidd Brown (33:31): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (33:32): I think that this community just allows that to happen. Shea Kidd Brown (33:36): Mm-hmm, it’s special, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (33:37): Yeah. I, I hope you do. You’ve been here now. Shea Kidd Brown (33:39): Oh, I do. Two and a half. It is. You know, as you say, we’ve both been on multiple campuses. Kim Lewellen (33:42): Uh, uh, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:43): I’m sure all those campuses would say they’re a community, but there’s something special, and I really do think it’s Pro Humanitate where I care about the person. I care about you, sitting across the table from you- Kim Lewellen (33:52): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:53): … and want to cultivate a relationship with you and not for a transactional reason, but- Kim Lewellen (33:57): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (33:57): … just for humanity, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (33:59): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (34:00): I can’t say that every place is like that. Kim Lewellen (34:02): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:02): So it’s really special. So let’s talk about the season. Kim Lewellen (34:05): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:05): What are you excited about as we think about this upcoming academic year- Kim Lewellen (34:09): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:09): … your upcoming season? Kim Lewellen (34:10): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:11): We have three new members of our conference, and I know you’ve played a lot of out of conference play in the past- Kim Lewellen (34:14): Uh-huh, mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:14): … but what are you looking forward to? Kim Lewellen (34:15): I have an interesting year. I actually have a lot. This will be the most turnover I’ve had since we’ve been here. The most new faces we’ve had, percentage wise, since we’ve been here. Shea Kidd Brown (34:29): Wow. Kim Lewellen (34:30): Add that with Stanford, Cal. Shea Kidd Brown (34:30): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (34:33): And SMU, and, and then last year, Stanford, 1SAAs were ranked number one, and we were ranked number two. Shea Kidd Brown (34:38): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (34:39): So, you know, they’re always right buttoned up against me, right? (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (34:41): (laughs), right, right. Kim Lewellen (34:42): So I’m like, “Yeah.” Shea Kidd Brown (34:42): Ma- makes me real uncomfortable, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (34:45): I know, I feel like… But saying that, I love the challenge of that. Shea Kidd Brown (34:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (34:48): A- and even talking about to my background, we have a lot of new faces and some that I, I look forward to cultivating them and I’m gonna have to do it a little quicker. Shea Kidd Brown (34:57): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (34:58): Usually, I have a little bit more time, but I have a, like, a, a young lady who’s a senior that came in to help me in a situation. We had a, a young lady turn pro that was unexpected. Shea Kidd Brown (35:08): Okay. Kim Lewellen (35:08): And so she has come in. Uh, usually, I take the time. I’ve got to develop a relationship with you. Shea Kidd Brown (35:13): Right, right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (35:13): I’ve got to figure you out. Shea Kidd Brown (35:15): Right. Kim Lewellen (35:15): I said, “I don’t have the time to do a relationship as well.” Shea Kidd Brown (35:18): Yeah, we’re gonna do it as well go, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (35:19): Yeah, yeah, right, we’re all in- Shea Kidd Brown (35:19): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (35:19): … you just gotta trust me, you know. Shea Kidd Brown (35:20): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (35:21): And so the challenges of, I’ve got to get a, a lot of new faces- Shea Kidd Brown (35:26): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (35:27): … as a group of different individuals from different backgrounds- Shea Kidd Brown (35:29): Right, right. Kim Lewellen (35:29): … international, from small towns, from big towns- Shea Kidd Brown (35:32): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (35:33): … to work together for the common goal. And so I have to do that a little bit quicker- Shea Kidd Brown (35:36): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (35:37): … than I’ve had to do in the past ’cause we have so many new ones. Shea Kidd Brown (35:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (35:39): And so I, I look forward to that challenge. Shea Kidd Brown (35:42): Right. What you said, “What’s gonna challenge me today? What, what problem can I solve?” Kim Lewellen (35:46): And this is gonna do it. I think I’m gonna enjoy that. It’ll be similar to… not in reference to the talent levels, a lot better, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (35:51): (laughs). Kim Lewellen (35:51): But to the Citadel where you have a, a challenge of- Shea Kidd Brown (35:54): Right. Kim Lewellen (35:54): … I’ve got to get some folks better. Shea Kidd Brown (35:57): Right. Kim Lewellen (35:57): Because- Shea Kidd Brown (35:57): Now when do you start? When does the season officially start? Kim Lewellen (36:00): Right, so we start August 26th. Shea Kidd Brown (36:01): Wow. Kim Lewellen (36:02): So, first day of class. But then I- Shea Kidd Brown (36:04): It feels like year round. Kim Lewellen (36:05): I know. Shea Kidd Brown (36:05): It’s wild. Kim Lewellen (36:05): We’re a year, we’re a year round sport. Shea Kidd Brown (36:07): Wild, yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:07): We are a year round sport. Shea Kidd Brown (36:08): Yeah. So do you ever get… I know I just interrupted the, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (36:11): See, yeah, no. Shea Kidd Brown (36:11): … telling me about the season, but when is that downtime though? Kim Lewellen (36:14): So, we really don’t have downtime in, in golf. Shea Kidd Brown (36:16): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:17): It’s a year round sport. And then when we’re not, we’re recruiting. Shea Kidd Brown (36:20): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:21): But saying that it’s from a coach’s standpoint- Shea Kidd Brown (36:24): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:24): … it’s different, which is, sort of, nice. So, it may not be downtime, but a different team that I had last year, that I’ve had the year before. Shea Kidd Brown (36:31): Right. Kim Lewellen (36:31): Here’s my challenges. I’m excited to help these young players get better quicker. Shea Kidd Brown (36:36): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:36): Then, they’ll go home to their family, and then I’ll do a little bit of recruiting. So, it’s a little bit of a different- Shea Kidd Brown (36:41): Uh-uh, different pace. Kim Lewellen (36:43): … genu- different pace. Shea Kidd Brown (36:43): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:43): And in January, I do continued education stuff before they come back. Shea Kidd Brown (36:47): Okay. Kim Lewellen (36:47): Then I’m all in on that again. Shea Kidd Brown (36:48): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (36:49): Then it’s recruiting, you know, so- Shea Kidd Brown (36:50): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:51): Things are different. Shea Kidd Brown (36:52): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:52): Which is, sort of, keeps it interesting, I guess, you could say. Shea Kidd Brown (36:55): Totally. Kim Lewellen (36:56): I will say, our conference championship, now that’s way in the spring. Shea Kidd Brown (36:59): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (37:00): It’s in April, but it is local. It’s at Sedgefield. Shea Kidd Brown (37:01): Oh. Kim Lewellen (37:01): So, so anybody can get out to watch our conference championship. Shea Kidd Brown (37:06): That’s exciting, yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:07): And that’s exciting to do that. Shea Kidd Brown (37:08): Yeah, that is exciting. And- Kim Lewellen (37:08): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (37:09): So, what’s the first? Kim Lewellen (37:10): We go to tournaments where there’s, uh, anywhere from 14 to 16 teams. Shea Kidd Brown (37:14): Different schools, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (37:15): And that way we can just hit a lot of head-to-heads really quickly. Shea Kidd Brown (37:18): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:19): So our first one will be the Annika, which is in Minnesota. It’ll be the strongest field of the fall that we’ll see. Shea Kidd Brown (37:24): Okay. Kim Lewellen (37:25): So, it’ll be a good test right out of the gate. Shea Kidd Brown (37:27): And is Minnesota challenging climate-wise this time of year? Kim Lewellen (37:30): This time of year, it’s not. It is different grasses. Shea Kidd Brown (37:33): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (37:33): They’re winter grasses, so grass is a little bit thicker. Shea Kidd Brown (37:36): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (37:36): The chipping is a little bit thicker. But saying that will prepare -em for that. Shea Kidd Brown (37:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:40): But it’s a little bit different ’cause as soon as that one’s over, we get back to the southern grasses. Shea Kidd Brown (37:44): Right, different terrain. Kim Lewellen (37:45): Which is different terrain. Shea Kidd Brown (37:45): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:46): And so just different skill sets that have to be practiced and, and things like that. Shea Kidd Brown (37:50): Wow, I’m very excited. Kim Lewellen (37:51): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (37:52): I look forward to following the team. Hopefully, I can see them in action. Kim Lewellen (37:55): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (37:56): Hopefully, we can hit some- Kim Lewellen (37:56): I- Shea Kidd Brown (37:57): I can watch you hit some balls, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (37:58): (laughs), no, you need to come hit some balls. Shea Kidd Brown (38:01): You can- Kim Lewellen (38:01): All right. All right, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:02): Okay, okay, it’s a deal. Just know that I like to be good at things, (laughs), and so- Kim Lewellen (38:04): Okay, okay, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:06): I’ll be pre- prepared to be humbled by that. Kim Lewellen (38:08): Oh. Shea Kidd Brown (38:09): But I’m so appreciative of- Kim Lewellen (38:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (38:11): … this opportunity to connect and hear more about your story, Kim Lewellen (38:14): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (38:15): … and just… so glad that you’re on our campus, and so- Kim Lewellen (38:18): Yeah, well, thank you. I’ve enjoyed being here. And, uh, everyone enjoys seeing you around campus. Shea Kidd Brown (38:21): (laughs), oh, thank you. Kim Lewellen (38:22): So we appreciate you, Doctor, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:25): Thank you, well, the feeling is mutual. Kim Lewellen (38:26): Oh, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (38:27): All right, thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (38:29): Such a good conversation with Coach Lewellen. I feel like I could talk to her all day. You know, so much of what we know about a coach is measured by commentary about wins and losses. But I feel so much gratitude that we were able to unpack Coach Lewellen’s story, when she began golfing, how she defines home. It’s where your people are. I just love that. (38:51): And even tidbits about motherhood and being a spouse. And, I of course, loved hearing about Coach Dailey’s influence and their unique relationship. I hope you feel as enriched as I do. Coach Lewellen is a real person. I “Kidd” you not. Thank you for listening, and I hope you’ll consider your unique story and the surprising connections we can all make to our shared humanity. (39:15): You have something to contribute to the world, and I hope you’ll keep leaning into the hard work and the heart work. MaryAnna Bailey (39:22): For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey and this was Kidd You Not.

S2| Episode 2: Deb Marke

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with a well-known staff member from the Office of Civic & Community Engagement, Deb Marke, who is a Demon Deacon herself. She is involved in a range of advocacy and civil rights engagement initiatives on campus, including Deacs Decide. She emphasizes social justice through her work, including through Deacon Dialogue, a space to facilitate these conversations. In this episode, you’ll hear about what her journey to WFU was like, why her work is fulfilling for her, how we can approach dialogue and engagement in an election year, and much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:05):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not. And I am so excited to introduce you to today’s guest. Now, I know I say that often, because I’m really fortunate that I get to meet a lot of people. A Wake Forest alumna, Deb Marke graduated with a bachelor of science degree in health and exercise science, with double minors in psychology and women, gender, and sexuality studies. She’s currently pursuing a master’s degree in social work at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Before returning to Wake Forest, Deb served as the Program Coordinator for Leadership and Activism in the Women’s Center at the University of Cincinnati, where she was named Outstanding New Professional. She currently serves as Associate Director for Democratic Engagement and Justice Programs in the Office of Civic and Community Engagement, and she is actively leading the Deacs Decide initiative alongside an amazing group of students. She’s also the creative mind behind Deacon Dialogues, an initiative on campus this fall.

(01:04):

This past year, among many things, Deb was awarded with the MLK Building the Dream award, and our campus is so fortunate to have Deb. I am excited about this conversation.

How you doing?

Deb Marke (01:19):

I’m good. I am a little nervous, not gonna lie.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:20):

That is normal.

Deb Marke (01:21):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:21):

It’s completely normal. I’m nervous, too. So, even though I get to talk to you and interview you, I want it to go well. So, thank you for saying that right away. We are both in the same camp. You know, think of it as a conversation, because that’s all it is.

Deb Marke (01:34):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:35):

So, thanks for agreeing to say yes even if you were like, “Ah.” (laughs)

Deb Marke (01:40):

I’m really excited. And I was very honored, so thanks.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:44):

Oh, good. Yeah. So, I’m also honored that you said yes. You’re such an important person on our campus and add such value to the student experience. It’s good for our campus to know all of the personalities that make it what it is, so I appreciate you saying yes. So, we’re gonna just chat. I love to start with the same question. I think it’s just grounding; you know me. Home is this grounding concept. Not physical structure, but the meaning of it. So, I like to start there and see where it takes us. So, where’s home for you?

Deb Marke (02:13):

I have homes across-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:17):

Hm, yeah.

Deb Marke (02:17):

… the world, literally.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:17):

Okay.

Deb Marke (02:20):

I think of home and I think of eating cassava leaves with my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:23):

Hm.

Deb Marke (02:23):

I think of home as just being with my partner and my cats.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:29):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (02:29):

Reading a really good book.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (02:31):

Is where I find home. And I have friends that are more like family.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (02:35):

And wherever I am with them, I really enjoy being around people that I don’t feel the need to be perfect around.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:43):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (02:43):

Like I can show up in most like raw, rough draft form.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:46):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (02:47):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

I love that.

Deb Marke (02:47):

And they are like, “I’ve got you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (02:49):

That’s beautiful. Cassava leaves.

Deb Marke (02:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Say more. (laughs)

Deb Marke (02:53):

So, my parents and my family are from Sierra Leone, and so I’m a first generation American.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Wow.

Deb Marke (02:59):

And my favorite meal ever is cassava leaves.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (03:03):

It’s kind of like spinach almost.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:04):

Hm, okay.

Deb Marke (03:05):

But a little bit like grittier.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

Okay.

Deb Marke (03:08):

But it’s really good and you like stew it in like tomatoes and peppers …

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

Hm.

Deb Marke (03:11):

… and onions all blended together.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:13):

Okay. And is it like a slow cooking process?

Deb Marke (03:16):

It is.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:16):

Okay.

Deb Marke (03:16):

You know, I try to make it at home-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Right, not the same.

Deb Marke (03:17):

It’s like not quite the same. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:20):

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I wish you all could see her face. It’s like this face means home. It’s happy, and it’s comfort. And I’m glad you explained what it is, ’cause I was thinking more bigger leaves, like almost like cabbage or kale, so I’ve never heard of that. So, I’ll have to look it up.

Deb Marke (03:34):

West African.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:35):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (03:36):

Just truly a staple. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:37):

Okay, good to know. And are your parents in the U.S., or are they still there?

Deb Marke (03:41):

They are here in the US.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:42):

Okay.

Deb Marke (03:43):

My parents are in Georgia.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Okay, okay.

Deb Marke (03:44):

That’s where I grew up.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:45):

So, you have to travel to Georgia to get your cassava leaves.

Deb Marke (03:48):

Yeah, my mom never fails to remind me.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Yeah. (laughs) That’s like her, probably a secret weapon of, “We want to see you, and we’ll cook for you.”

Deb Marke (03:55):

Oh, 100%.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:56):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (03:57):

And then she always knows, she has the Tupperware waiting.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Oh.

Deb Marke (04:00):

And I always bring a cooler.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

I love it.

Deb Marke (04:02):

And she pretends that she doesn’t make extra, but she definitely does.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:04):

Right, of course she does.

Deb Marke (04:05):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

I relate to that very much. I’m from south Mississippi, as you know, and my dad was the primary cook in our family. So, I don’t get home as often as I want to, but when I do, there’s all kinds of Southern comfort food, seafood. That’s making me hungry.

Deb Marke (04:22):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

Um, so I love how you describe home as not really a place as a, a feeling and the people around you, and that’s really beautiful. As I think about that, too, you talked about your parents. Do you have siblings, extended family that are part of that-

Deb Marke (04:37):

Yeah, I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

… unit?

Deb Marke (04:39):

… a brother.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:39):

Okay.

Deb Marke (04:40):

He’s the baby.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Okay.

Deb Marke (04:41):

And I have a sister who’s in the middle. I’m the oldest.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:44):

Hm.

Deb Marke (04:44):

And I’ve been told my-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Birth order is so interesting to me.

Deb Marke (04:47):

Mm-hmm. I’ve been told I give older sister energy.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

Okay. (laughs)

Deb Marke (04:49):

There’s a … that tracks. But we’re all three years apart. So, between me and my brother, just three years. He was born September 12th, I was born September 10th, my mom is September 19th, so lots of Virgo energy.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Yes, absolutely.

Deb Marke (05:03):

In our family. Love my siblings.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:04):

I always wanted to get away from Georgia.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:07):

It just wasn’t for me. I was like, “I just want to experience life.”

Shea Kidd Brown (05:09):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (05:10):

And so I left. And I grew up with my mom and my dad, and my grandmother came and lived with us.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:17):

She moved here probably when I was in like seventh grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:20):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:21):

And she ended up getting her citizenship.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:23):

And she just had such a big impact on my life and truly just changed the way that like, I understand loss and grief in a different way.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:33):

Like a loss for this disconnect that we have. Like her upbringing and the way that she-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:38):

Okay.

Deb Marke (05:38):

… lived was just so different-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Right.

Deb Marke (05:40):

… than the way that I grew up and lived. And also to have another caretaker in the home.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:44):

And then when I was in high school she got really sick, and flipping that, becoming a caregiver.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:48):

Yeah, right, for someone you’re accustomed to …

Deb Marke (05:52):

That was really difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:53):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:53):

And so she has left such a last- lasting impact on me.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:57):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (05:57):

And she passed away in 2019.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

Hm, I’m sorry.

Deb Marke (06:00):

But I feel so connected to her. She was a social worker.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:03):

Oh, really?

Deb Marke (06:03):

Um, and I didn’t even know that-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

Oh, my gosh.

Deb Marke (06:06):

… until I got into the program.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (06:08):

And my mom was like, “Did you know that this is what your grandmother did?”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

Wow.

Deb Marke (06:11):

So I just hold that really closely.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:12):

Yeah, that is really special.

Deb Marke (06:14):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

And it’s one of those nature-nurture things, that you grew up literally worlds apart, came back together, and then to make that connection later in life, that’s really special. Grandmothers are special. If you’re lucky enough to have them with you, I lost my grandmother a year and a half ago, and just the wisdom and the perspective they have because they’ve lived so much life. And, and then I think it’s also a gift when you recognize that, because not everybody does.

Deb Marke (06:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

So, to be able to recognize how special they are, and my grandmother was really active in the Civil Rights Movement, and so that’s why, and it was in my dissertation, uh, work in my PhD that I really started to get it. She was always special to me, but my lived experience pointed me to these conversations around inclusion and belonging and systems, and all that came from her. You’ve heard the story, but given her life working for justice and inclusion and belonging and those sorts of things, it just naturally was part of the conversation. And I caught onto it, so I love that she passed that along not even knowing it.

Deb Marke (07:20):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (07:20):

So, I want to talk about social work certainly. Just a little bit more about your childhood. So, you are this light. You have so much energy, you bring so much energy to every space you’re in. So was that little Deb? Like were you always like that?

Deb Marke (07:35):

I think that like I was really shy.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (07:37):

Like I’m actually a really shy and introverted person.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Really?

Deb Marke (07:40):

Which is like really hard for people to believe.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Yes, it is.

Deb Marke (07:44):

(laughs) But I also really like to help.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:46):

Hm.

Deb Marke (07:46):

And so even when I was younger, I was like, “Oh, my brother’s crying, let me get, I got this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (07:51):

“I’m helping. Here we are.” And so I think that’s kind of always been a little bit of like a strength of mine.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (07:56):

Is just being able to like, even when I’m really scared, to just be comfortable enough to like jump in.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

Hm.

Deb Marke (08:01):

And so I think that’s kind of been it. And personally, my mantra is that like we all have a lot going on. Sometimes people are going through things that like you really couldn’t even imagine, or you can’t just see from the surface.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:13):

Sure.

Deb Marke (08:13):

And so just trying my very best to just meet everyone with like curiosity, support-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:18):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (08:18):

… and kindness-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:19):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (08:19):

… I think can just really change a lot. And so I just try to come from that place.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:24):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (08:24):

And like remembering that like we don’t all have it figured out, and sometimes people come and they’re really upset.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (08:30):

And maybe they’re not upset with me, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:32):

Right.

Deb Marke (08:32):

… what happened was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

Yeah, that’s right. That’s so true.

Deb Marke (08:36):

So, just reminder that being a human is hard-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:37):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (08:37):

… and we’re just all trying our best.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:39):

Being a human is hard. You are so right, you are so right. And I hear a lot of empathy and grace in that answer, and I will say yes, surprising that you are an introvert. I would say too though, but because of your answer it seems like when you are in your passion or when you’re connected to helping, that’s what brings you alive.

Deb Marke (08:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

And I think that’s a really important lesson for all of us, because sometimes how we get our energy is based on comfort. And uh, your interests, like we talked about your grandmother, but the helping, was that always a part of what you wanted to be when you grew up, kind of thing?

Deb Marke (09:11):

Yeah. So, I grew up always wanting to be a doctor.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:13):

Okay.

Deb Marke (09:14):

Like, that is what I was like, “I’m gonna be a doctor.”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:16):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:16):

I went to a high school and a magnet program that was focused on medical sciences and research.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:22):

Hm.

Deb Marke (09:22):

Like I did volunteer and internship experiences at hospitals. I was pre-med when I came to Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:28):

Uh-huh.

Deb Marke (09:28):

And stayed pre-med the whole time. So I graduated with a degree, health and exercise science.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:33):

And then minors in psychology and women and gender and sexuality studies.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:37):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:38):

And it was when I took my first W&GS class that I realized that like, “Oh, I really like this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:44):

Like it’s making me think-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (09:45):

… and ask questions. All of my classes gave me such a unique perspective on how it’s not just about being able to like help people in that moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:55):

It’s like, how can we shift structures and policies-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:58):

Sure.

Deb Marke (09:58):

… and systems and the way that we think about community to like deter bad health outcomes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:03):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (10:04):

Like what can we do to be a more preventative culture?

Shea Kidd Brown (10:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (10:06):

And I realized that that’s what I was interested in, and doctors don’t really get to do a lot of that.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:10):

That’s right.

Deb Marke (10:11):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:11):

That’s right. And we’re not socialized to talk about those kinds of things. So I know when we grow up it’s like, “Doctor, engineer, nurse,” you know, it’s very concrete, and the liberal arts education really introduces you to these bigger concepts and discovering the root causes of things. And there’s certainly a place, and it’s really important to have physicians, but going back to your passion and what makes you tick, it was really about that aha moment.

Deb Marke (10:37):

I recognize how lucky I am to be able to have that experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (10:42):

Because it was such a turning point for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:44):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (10:45):

If I had just not taken the class, or like didn’t really have to take it-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:48):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (10:49):

… I probably would have been like just chugging along-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (10:51):

… going to med school.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Keeping that plan.

Deb Marke (10:52):

But I’m really happy with my life, and like I just feel like I’m right where I’m supposed to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

Yeah. So how did you decide upon Wake?

Deb Marke (11:00):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:00):

I’m sure you had a lot of options, especially being in a magnet school and things like that.

Deb Marke (11:04):

So, Wake was really interesting. I didn’t visit a single school. I applied to a bunch of different schools, and I only applied to schools in Georgia that I knew would not give me any money.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:16):

Really?

Deb Marke (11:16):

So I could leave. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:19):

Are you serious?

Deb Marke (11:20):

Yeah. And surprise, surprise, they didn’t give me any money.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:23):

Oh.

Deb Marke (11:23):

I got in. And so it was between like Wake Forest and Syracuse, and …

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

That’s a, a bit of a spectrum. (laughs)

Deb Marke (11:31):

It was really just kind of, I don’t know what I’m gonna do, but these are the two that I’m feeling kind of drawn to.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (11:37):

And I went to an event at someone’s house, and they had Hattie Mukombe, who used to be the Director of Admissions.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:45):

Hm.

Deb Marke (11:45):

She was the nicest person I had ever met in my entire life.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (11:50):

And she talked to every single one of us individually.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:53):

Hm.

Deb Marke (11:53):

Talked to our families, engaged with alumni-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:56):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (11:56):

… and like we just got to hear all these different stories. This was amazing.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (12:00):

But what really sold me is that afterwards she sent all of us a handwritten, little note-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:05):

Hm.

Deb Marke (12:05):

… telling us like, if we chose to go there, that we belonged there.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:08):

Wow.

Deb Marke (12:09):

And I was like, “Even though I’ve never been to this place, I need to go.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Yeah, that gives me chills. We talk a lot about the relationships that are built, and that was in a deeply intimate, relational way. But Deb, so you said something as you were talking about your college choice. I love Wake Forest, I love this moment that we’re having. But you said, “I only applied to places that would not give me money.” So, what does that mean? Was that because they weren’t then committed to you, so you didn’t have to be committed to them? Or …

Deb Marke (12:37):

Yeah. And my parents, I’m their, the first child for them-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (12:42):

… to go to college, and my mom was just horrified at the fact that I was applying to like the University of Oregon, UCLA.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Right.

Deb Marke (12:50):

The University of Washington.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:50):

All over the place.

Deb Marke (12:52):

And she was like, “Why are you trying to leave?” I grew up in a smaller town.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:55):

Hm.

Deb Marke (12:55):

Everyone knows everyone.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:56):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (12:56):

And I found that to be so suffocating.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:59):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:00):

And I just really wanted to get away.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:02):

Every school that was kind of close, within three hours of driving distance from my parents, I was like …

Shea Kidd Brown (13:06):

It was a no.

Deb Marke (13:10):

It was a no for me. So, I was like, “Here are the schools that like I’m applying to-“

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:12):

“… because I know they will make you happy.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:14):

Okay.

Deb Marke (13:15):

And …

Shea Kidd Brown (13:15):

“And there’s a whole world out there, including Oregon and Syracuse, that I’m gonna look at, too.”

Deb Marke (13:20):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that will make me happy. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:21):

Yes, yeah. It sounds like from that start of the person that you mentioned made a really big impact on you. Well, I’m glad Hattie, you know, closed the deal.

Deb Marke (13:31):

Like my whole first year I kept in contact with her.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:34):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:34):

And then I got to host like students who were coming to visit.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:39):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (13:39):

And just like getting them to like, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:39):

So, you got to pay it forward in that way.

Deb Marke (13:40):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

So, let’s talk about Wake Forest. You were a student, critical periods. I feel like that’s always the case, but I’d love to hear about what was most salient for you as a student.

Deb Marke (13:54):

I was here in 2012.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (13:54):

So, I was here for the reelection of President Obama.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:56):

Okay.

Deb Marke (13:57):

Which I feel like was really big.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:59):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (13:59):

And that was the first election that I got to vote in.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

Okay.

Deb Marke (14:01):

So I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is-“

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:04):

“… the time.”

Deb Marke (14:04):

“Like, I get to cast a ballot.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:05):

And you were a first year?

Deb Marke (14:06):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:06):

When you got to vote? Okay.

Deb Marke (14:08):

And so that was, like, pretty incredible for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:09):

And my time at Wake was just really interesting. I had never been so far away from home, and I started off growing up in Atlanta.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:19):

And so, I went to a school that was bilingual, and most of the kids were Black and brown.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:24):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:25):

And then when I was in third grade, we moved to Kennesaw.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

Okay.

Deb Marke (14:29):

And so I went from being around people who look like me-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Right.

Deb Marke (14:32):

… to being, like, one of 10 Black kids-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:34):

Sure.

Deb Marke (14:35):

… in the entire school and two of the other people were my siblings. And so that was a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Wow.

Deb Marke (14:40):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Wow. (laughs)

Deb Marke (14:41):

Uh, and coming to Wake kind of felt a little bit similar.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:44):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:44):

I was like, “Oh, this is really different.” But I also felt a little bit on the outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:49):

Okay.

Deb Marke (14:50):

So, I was like, “I’m gonna just figure it out for myself.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

Sure.

Deb Marke (14:52):

Like, and figure out what belonging means for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:55):

I was really involved with the Women’s Center.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:57):

The Women’s Center started my sophomore year.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:00):

Okay.

Deb Marke (15:00):

And I was their first student worker.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:04):

Oh my gosh!

Deb Marke (15:04):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:04):

Um… (laughs)

Deb Marke (15:04):

And I just really poured myself into that space.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:06):

And they poured into me and-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:09):

Was that right around the time, too, that you were taking the class? Did those-

Deb Marke (15:12):

It was.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:13):

Okay.

Deb Marke (15:13):

Yeah, because the director, she was just trying to get in front of students-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:15):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:16):

… and she’s like, “Oh yeah, we’re gonna have this event.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

Mm.

Deb Marke (15:19):

And I was like, “Oh.” And she went to all the residence halls and she came to mine and no one was there, and I felt bad.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:23):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (15:24):

So, I was like, “Oh, let me stop by.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:24):

Because you’re a helper. (laughs)

Deb Marke (15:30):

(laughs) Yeah. And so worked in Campus Rec. I was a student supervisor in the gym and I- was an intramural ref.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:34):

And I volunteered, and so I had, like, all these really different pockets-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:38):

Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:39):

… of friends and, like, places that I could engage. And I did a lot of student activism when I was-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:42):

Okay.

Deb Marke (15:44):

… on campus, and it really helped me to find my voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:47):

And you don’t always have to agree with people.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:50):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:50):

Like, it’s okay to have conflict-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Right.

Deb Marke (15:52):

… and it’s okay to have dissonance.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:54):

And also, it’s like, how can we work together-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:57):

… to get to this goal even if we have different ideas-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (16:00):

… of what it looks like to get there.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:01):

Right.

Deb Marke (16:02):

And that has really served me a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

I bet.

Deb Marke (16:04):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:06):

(laughs) And all of that, too, is still connected to what you were talking about with your class, like, systems and structures and barriers to inclusion. And you were very involved in the OCCE, too.

Deb Marke (16:17):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:18):

Now, was it called that at the time?

Deb Marke (16:20):

It was not.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:20):

Okay.

Deb Marke (16:20):

It was called the Pro Humanitate Institute.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

Okay, that’s right.

Deb Marke (16:23):

And so I did a lot of the programs that were focused more around, like, gender-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:28):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:28):

… and, like, talking about girlhood-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:29):

Mm.

Deb Marke (16:29):

… and what that means and what that looks like. I went on an alternative break trip. Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:35):

Mm, where did you go?

Deb Marke (16:35):

I went to Asheville.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:36):

Okay. Nice.

Deb Marke (16:36):

And it was the first time I’d ever been there-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:38):

… and we were staying in a hostel called-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:40):

You… (laughs)

Deb Marke (16:40):

… Sweet Peas. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:40):

You were like, “What is this?” (laughs)

Deb Marke (16:43):

(laughs) And I was like, “Oh, this is a lot.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

Mm.

Deb Marke (16:45):

But I learned so much-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

Mm.

Deb Marke (16:47):

… about advocacy and also just sort of, like, the landscape of North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:52):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:52):

… because every part of North Carolina just has such rich history-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:57):

Sure.

Deb Marke (16:57):

… and different traditions-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:58):

… and cultures. Like, are so embedded.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (17:01):

But then it’s also like, we are only, like, two hours away, so… (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

I was just about to say, and you leave 20 miles, and it could be totally different. But I even think about the shape (laughs) of our state, and there’s so many nooks, and it’s almost emblematic of those various traditions and cultures and experiences.

Deb Marke (17:17):

Maybe you have those experiences like someone who’s, like, from more of, like, the deep South.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (17:22):

But it’s so different. It feels so different-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:24):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (17:25):

… in North Carolina than-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:26):

It does.

Deb Marke (17:26):

… it does in Georgia. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:27):

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally.

Deb Marke (17:28):

And it was kind of jarring, ’cause I’m like, “Oh, this is, like, all the South.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:32):

Mm.

Deb Marke (17:32):

Like, I’m like, “I love the South.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:33):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (17:33):

“The South is for me.” And so when I came to North Carolina, I said, “Oh-“

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

This…

Deb Marke (17:37):

“… I’m a little shocked.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:38):

(laughs) It’s a little different. Well, y- and when you think about, there are parts of North Carolina that are an hour and a half from Virginia.

Deb Marke (17:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:43):

And I s- sometimes have to image search the map (laughs) because I’m confused.

Deb Marke (17:48):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

You know, ’cause we’re four hours from the beach, five hours from D.C. It’s just-

Deb Marke (17:52):

It, like, doesn’t really make sense. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:54):

It doesn’t. It doesn’t at all, going back to the shape. So, you were involved in everything. So you progress through swimmingly, graduate, and then you decide medical school’s not it. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:04):

I was like, “I can’t do this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Okay.

Deb Marke (18:06):

(laughs) I’m not interested.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:07):

Well, you probably could but it’s-

Deb Marke (18:08):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:09):

… it was, your passion wasn’t there.

Deb Marke (18:10):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:10):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (18:12):

I was like, “I’m gonna do something different.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:13):

And so I ended up doing a year of service through AmeriCorps-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:16):

Mm.

Deb Marke (18:16):

… here in Winston, and I was at Experiment in Self-Reliance, and they gave me just, like, a lot of autonomy-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:22):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (18:22):

… and agency to kind of just do-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:24):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:24):

… and, like, experience. So I was overseeing a grant, I got to go and do programming in communities. I was doing, like, qualitative, like, interviewing-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:32):

Wow.

Deb Marke (18:32):

… and it was so much fun-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:35):

… and I loved it, but it was also my first introduction to social work, and I was just like, “Oh, I don’t know if I could do that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:39):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:40):

Because there’s so many barriers.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

Sure.

Deb Marke (18:42):

There was to be a way to, like, help people think about this before they are the person who are making decisions-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:49):

… and not thinking about these things. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:50):

Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Marke (18:52):

And so I went to one of my mentors and I was like, “Hey, like, I think I wanna work, like, in higher ed. How do you do that?”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:57):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (18:58):

And (laughs) she was like, “Amazing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:59):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (18:59):

“Here are a bunch of jobs that you can apply for.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:01):

Every person like me is like, “Yes!” (laughs)

Deb Marke (19:05):

(laughs) And she helped me… Paige Meltzer, she was the first director of the Women’s Center.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:08):

Okay.

Deb Marke (19:08):

And she helped me through the entire process. Like, read over my cover letters.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:13):

Wow.

Deb Marke (19:13):

I ended up getting an interview at the University of Cincinnati in their Women’s Center-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:17):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (19:18):

… and went and loved it-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:20):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (19:20):

… and ended up taking the position there. And I was the Program Coordinator for Activism and Leadership. And it was so different than Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:29):

I bet.

Deb Marke (19:29):

Over 48, 000 students.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:31):

Wow.

Deb Marke (19:32):

Two satellite campuses.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

Wow.

Deb Marke (19:33):

Students either graduate in three years or seven years.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:36):

Right.

Deb Marke (19:37):

I didn’t know anyone in Cincinnati.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (19:39):

I just packed everything up in my-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:40):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (19:40):

… Toyota Camry and just, like, drove there. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:40):

That’s, that’s a trend that I’m s-… A thread (laughs) of your story.

Deb Marke (19:41):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:43):

“I don’t know anything, but I’m gonna spread my wings.”

Deb Marke (19:49):

Yeah, I was like, “We’re gonna vibe.” I just told myself, “I can do anything for a year.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:53):

Mm.

Deb Marke (19:53):

“And if I really don’t like it after a year, I can start looking. I can make a change.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Right.

Deb Marke (19:59):

Like, and I loved it. It was really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:01):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:02):

And it was really hard to be somewhere new. It was really hard to be a young professional-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (20:06):

… and figuring out who I am-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:08):

… who I want to be-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Right.

Deb Marke (20:09):

… and I learned so much about myself and about my own resilience-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:13):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (20:14):

… and grit, and also just kind of the kind of leader that I wanna be.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:17):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:18):

I realized that I wanna be the leader that isn’t scared of other people shining.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:23):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:23):

Like, I wanna support other people-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (20:25):

… and their wholeness, and I want to celebrate them, and I want them to shine just as brightly-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

I love that.

Deb Marke (20:30):

… ’cause that doesn’t take away from me.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:31):

Yeah. I love that. Like, I feel like we could go on a whole thread-

Deb Marke (20:34):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (20:35):

… because leadership, we tend to think of it in this very power, public-oriented way, and that kind of leadership that you just described, I think about the analogy of a, or a metaphor of a pebble and the ripple effect, so you have this ability to let other people shine, see what their strengths are, and what you just said, I can’t say it better. Like, that doesn’t take away from you. More light actually p- just provides more light. It doesn’t dim you, so, such a great nugget there. So, you loved it, it was really hard. Were there specific things in addition to you learning yourself and res- resilience and grit, those things, um, about the work itself that was hard? Or was it just where you were in your sort of stage of life?

Deb Marke (21:17):

(laughs) I think that doing gender work on campuses, it can be really difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:23):

Mm.

Deb Marke (21:23):

You know, sometimes there’s some traditions and ideas that are really, really steeped in.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (21:28):

And it’s really difficult when you’re, like, 24-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:30):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (21:31):

… and they’re like, “You need to go talk to the engineering department-“

Shea Kidd Brown (21:32):

Yeah. (laughs)

Deb Marke (21:33):

“… around how they can support women.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:35):

Yeah. (laughs)

Deb Marke (21:35):

“Because we just noticed that a lot of women are leaving the department.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:38):

Right. “Can you fix that for us?” (laughs)

Deb Marke (21:39):

(laughs) Yeah. And I’m just like, “I don’t really know if just a workshop is gonna be able to solve that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:42):

Right. Right.

Deb Marke (21:43):

And so just trying to figure out, what are the ways that I can utilize my personal sphere of influence-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (21:49):

… to sort of, like, challenge some of these, but also thinking about, maybe it doesn’t always mean that it needs to come from me.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

Mm.

Deb Marke (21:57):

Sometimes it-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (21:57):

… definitely does, but what is the impact?

Shea Kidd Brown (22:00):

Sure.

Deb Marke (22:01):

So, I worked with a student who had this idea of doing, like, photo stories of women in STEM.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:06):

And, like, interviewed a bunch of women who were planning to go into STEM or were in it and, like, what their career paths look like, their fears, their challenges, their excitement, and then we combined it into, like, this huge-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:19):

Mm.

Deb Marke (22:19):

… video-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:19):

Wow.

Deb Marke (22:19):

… and presented on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:21):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:21):

And it was like, for some people, that was the thing that actually shifted.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

Mm.

Deb Marke (22:24):

It was like, “Oh, like, we have people who actually really deeply care about this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:29):

Right.

Deb Marke (22:29):

“And the people who are shining stars here are also struggling.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:33):

Mm.

Deb Marke (22:33):

“So, that means that, like, maybe there are things that we can do to support them-“

Shea Kidd Brown (22:36):

Sure.

Deb Marke (22:37):

“… in a different way.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:37):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (22:38):

And then that’s when I can come in and say like, “So, how are we thinking about, like, policies?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:42):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:42):

“How are you thinking about even classroom culture?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:44):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (22:44):

“Um, what are, like, the things that we’re saying and not saying?” And I found that to be not only helpful for me but also for our students.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (22:51):

To-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

And it gave ’em a voice.

Deb Marke (22:53):

Yeah. They felt really empowered.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:55):

And it was like, “I got to share my story, and I feel heard.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:59):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:59):

“And I don’t know what this is gonna yield. I may never experience it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:03):

Sure.

Deb Marke (23:03):

And that’s the hard part about social change work.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Right. And the hard part about leadership. The most beautiful story of leadership is what happens after you leave somewhere, you know?

Deb Marke (23:11):

Yeah. But it was really powerful. So just figuring out… But sometimes it can be a little bit hard. I was like, “This is just not how I-“

Shea Kidd Brown (23:17):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (23:17):

“… want it to be.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:18):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (23:18):

And building that resilience to say like, “This is hard, and I can do hard things.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:23):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (23:23):

“And we can all do hard things.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:25):

Right. And it doesn’t last forever. Things being the same level of hard every day is just not the way life is. Sometimes I have to say to myself, “Okay, it’s not gonna always be this way.”

Deb Marke (23:33):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (23:33):

During COVID, I was at the University of Tennessee and I would say, “It is not gonna always be this way, and we can do hard things.” (laughs) That was sort of how I ended everything and almost five years later, here we are. So, at what point did you decide, it’s time for a shift, or time to do something different?

Deb Marke (23:47):

I was in a space where I was the only person left in my center. (laughs) I was… And I was like, “I am gonna ask a really bold question.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:57):

Mm.

Deb Marke (23:57):

I was like, “I know that there is some open positions. Like, I am really interested in this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:03):

Like, “I would love to step into this because I know that, like, we need some form of leadership-“

Shea Kidd Brown (24:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:07):

“… in this space.” And I was basically told, like, “We’re gonna wait and, like, hire a director and then let them decide what they wanna do with their team.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Mm.

Deb Marke (24:14):

And I was like, “That’s fair. And that’s not fair for me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:18):

Mm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (24:18):

(laughs) I understand the decision.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:20):

Sure.

Deb Marke (24:20):

And it’s not really what I wanted-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:22):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:22):

… so I was applying for jobs within Cincinnati, and I saw the job at Wake-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:28):

… and I was like, “Mm, I don’t know.” I didn’t actually apply.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:31):

I was like, “Whatever, it’s fine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:32):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (24:33):

One of my friends who works here was like, “Hey, you need to apply for this job.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

Mm.

Deb Marke (24:37):

And I was like, “I don’t really think I’m qualified.” And she’s like, “No. You don’t get to determine that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:41):

Ooh. (laughs)

Deb Marke (24:42):

“Let the search committee determine that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:42):

That’s, that’s good advice.

Deb Marke (24:42):

(laughs) It was.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:46):

That’s really good advice. ‘Cause how many times do we count ourselves out before we even start?

Deb Marke (24:48):

A lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (24:50):

And so I was like, “Okay.” I applied and didn’t really hear anything, and then I got a phone interview, and I was like, “Okay, sure.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:55):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (24:56):

And then they invited me on campus, and I was just like, “Oh.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (24:59):

“Um, this just feels really real. I guess maybe they’re actually considering me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

“Maybe they like me.”

Deb Marke (25:02):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (25:05):

And I came and it was really great. Marianne, who is my supervisor now-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:08):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (25:09):

… interviewed me, and I just remember at the very end of my interview, she was like, “I just want you to know that there is an MSW program here, like, a master’s in social work-“

Shea Kidd Brown (25:19):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (25:19):

“… at Chapel Hill. They have a part-time program that meets here in Forsyth County.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:22):

Okay.

Deb Marke (25:23):

And then she was like, “If you were to get this position, like, I just think that this would be such a good program for you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:29):

Mm.

Deb Marke (25:29):

“Like, something that you should definitely consider.” And I was like, “Yeah, I don’t really know about getting my master’s.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:32):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (25:33):

“We’ll just have to see.” And then I got offered the position, and I almost said no. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:38):

Are you serious?

Deb Marke (25:39):

Because my partner was in Ohio.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:41):

Okay.

Deb Marke (25:42):

I had built, like, this life-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:43):

Sure.

Deb Marke (25:44):

… and I was just like, “This is uprooting.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:46):

Right.

Deb Marke (25:47):

Like, am I ready to move again and-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:49):

Right, and start again.

Deb Marke (25:50):

Yeah. And my partner was like, “This is, like, an opportunity that doesn’t come around very often.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (25:55):

“And you should just do whatever it is that you think you need to do-“

Shea Kidd Brown (26:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (26:00):

“… and we’re gonna figure it out.” Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

It’s great to have a partner who is supportive. Yeah.

Deb Marke (26:04):

I know-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Here you go.

Deb Marke (26:05):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:05):

I think of this, the literature sometimes talks about sponsorship, so the first person who said, “You need to apply.” ‘Cause you might not have applied. (laughs)

Deb Marke (26:11):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:12):

And then you had someone who said, “You need to apply for grad school.” And then you had someone who said, “We’re doing this-“

Deb Marke (26:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:17):

“… even if it’s hard.” So, tell me about your circle. Like, who are your mentors and what have you learned from having people around you who do encourage you to do something maybe that you didn’t think you could do? That may be putting words in your mouth-

Deb Marke (26:32):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:32):

… but just what I’m reflecting back.

Deb Marke (26:34):

It feels really good, like you are seen.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (26:39):

And I have a lot of different mentors in my life, and sometimes it comes from friends-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:45):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (26:46):

… who I also see as mentors.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:48):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (26:48):

Honestly, it comes from our students.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:50):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (26:50):

Like, I learn so much from our students and being in a space of, like, “Hey, we are co-learning and growing together.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:57):

(laughs) Right.

Deb Marke (26:58):

And particularly in this era of my life-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:02):

… I think Marianne has been such a rockstar.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:06):

And, like, she has been, like, one of my number one supporters.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:09):

She was a reference for me for grad school. She was the one that was like, “We are going to make this work.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:15):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (27:16):

She’s like, “When you get in.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:16):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:17):

‘Cause she was like, “It’s not an if-“

Shea Kidd Brown (27:18):

Not if.

Deb Marke (27:18):

“… it’s just, like, when.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

Right.

Deb Marke (27:19):

She was like, “We’re gonna figure it out. I’m gonna meet you where you’re at and we’re gonna make this happen.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:27):

And I was like, “Okay.” Um… (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:27):

“We can do this.”

Deb Marke (27:27):

“We can do it.” And she has just been incredible.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:29):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:29):

And I’ve learned so much. When I was at the University of Cincinnati, it did not have, like, the best office culture-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:35):

… and so it has been really healing-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:37):

Mm.

Deb Marke (27:37):

… to be able to have someone who’s like, “I trust you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:40):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:40):

“You’ve got this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:40):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:42):

And I can come to her with questions, and I don’t feel afraid. I know she’s gonna actually listen-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:47):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:47):

… and it’s not gonna be, like, a condescending or-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (27:49):

… “I told you so.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:50):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:51):

It’s just going to be like, “What do you need from me?”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:53):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:53):

“How can we move forward? How can we fix this?” Or, “No, you’re actually on the right path.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

Mm.

Deb Marke (27:57):

Like, “Just keep going.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

And helping you think through, just being a sounding board and…

Deb Marke (28:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:01):

… recent conversation you and I had was about the next academic step, but just-

Deb Marke (28:05):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:05):

… being able to have, really, a person who feels safe in talking through all of those things in life. And, you know, it sounds like you’ve also had to have people who quiet, you know, that inner voice that’s like, “Uh, am I ready for this? Can I do this?” And having a voice that’s like, “You absolutely can.” Or, “Here’s how we can do it,” or, “How can I help?”

Deb Marke (28:22):

And, all of my friends that I have right now, we all lived on the same freshman hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Are you serious (laughs)?

Deb Marke (28:27):

So, we all lived-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

What hall?

Deb Marke (28:27):

… in Babcock.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Okay.

Deb Marke (28:27):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Nice.

Deb Marke (28:27):

Babcock 2A.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Babcock.

Deb Marke (28:33):

( laughs) Uh, we are all friends. Everyone’s starting to get married, so we’ve been in-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:35):

… a million weddings.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:36):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (28:36):

We have a little group chat, and every time any of us are feeling-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:40):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:40):

… a little… I send a little voice memo-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:41):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (28:41):

… and I’m like, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. Here’s what I’m thinking.” And it’s like, either, “Hey, you were in the wrong-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:47):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:47):

… “and [inaudible 00:28:48]-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:47):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:48):

… “you need to, like, repair harm.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (28:51):

Or, like, “Hey, why are you talking about yourself like that?”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:53):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:53):

“You’re my friend, and-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:54):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (28:54):

… “we don’t talk about each other like that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:56):

Right. That’s right.

Deb Marke (28:56):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Yeah. It’s so good to have a group that you can check in on. One of the things I talk to first years about is just saying the things out loud, giving it light, because it takes the power away, especially if it’s negative self-talk, to be able to say, “This is where I’m naming.” (laughs) Like, “This is where I am,” and I have those people in my life too, I call my personal board of directors, but-

Deb Marke (29:16):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:17):

You know, the people who are like, “Yeah, you’re right,” or the people who are like, “Um, we might not, wanna take a few steps back. Let’s talk about this,” or-

Deb Marke (29:24):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:24):

… “Hey, let’s get on the phone.” It’s just a great testament that none of us get through this life by ourselves, that we need people, and it’s really important. And you’ve, you’ve been a great resource to, to students. It’s really fun to hear you talk about, “These are the things I did as a undergrad,” and I believe Miriam was here as an undergrad-

Deb Marke (29:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:41):

… too, and then now to be in a space where you’re creating those opportunities and those mentorship relationships, and I love that you included students and mentors. ‘Cause a lot of times, we think of it only as this person we’re aspiring to be, but I do agree that my best teachers are students. So, how special is it that you now get to be a part of their journey and their experience? So, what are some of the things that give you life? (laughs) You know-

Deb Marke (30:06):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:07):

… as you come to work every day and help to create a student experience that you had?

Deb Marke (30:11):

I really like… All the programming I do is obviously, like, super fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:16):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:16):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:16):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (30:17):

But sometimes it’s the little moments.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:19):

I’d only been here for a few weeks, and one of the students came into my office and was just like, “Hi. I’m really interested in Deacs Decide, and-“

Shea Kidd Brown (30:29):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (30:30):

… ” I really just wanna help and just-“

Shea Kidd Brown (30:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:32):

… “do whatever.” And I was like, “That’s wonderful. I don’t really know anything about Deacs Decide-“

Shea Kidd Brown (30:38):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (30:38):

… “right now,” ’cause I [inaudible 00:30:38]-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:38):

“I just got here.” (laughs).

Deb Marke (30:39):

I’d been here for maybe two weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Yeah (laughs).

Deb Marke (30:41):

But, I’m really excited, and that moment, just, I was like, “But what are you excited about?”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:45):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:45):

Like, “Why does this matter?” And just hearing what he cared about-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:49):

… and then to see him graduate, and is now working at, like, a political communications-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:55):

… nonprofit, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:56):

Wow.

Deb Marke (30:56):

… pulling on all those experiences-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:57):

Right.

Deb Marke (30:58):

… that he got from Deacs Decide. Like, those are kind of the moments-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:01):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (31:02):

… and it’s like, I love that we got all these students registered to vote.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:05):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:06):

And, like, we did the programming. We went to the polls. And, it’s also those little moments of, like, seeing someone come into their own, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:13):

Right.

Deb Marke (31:13):

… finding the thing that they are really excited-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:15):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:15):

… about, and, like, are able to just kind of like find that thread and start-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:19):

Right.

Deb Marke (31:19):

… like, pulling it.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:20):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Well-

Deb Marke (31:21):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (31:22):

… because you mentioned it, I do wanna-

Deb Marke (31:23):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (31:23):

… talk about Deacs Decide (laughs). It’s a big year-

Deb Marke (31:26):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (31:26):

… and as I’ve learned from you, it’s the presidential election, yes, but also some other things, so what are you most excited about as you think about the march to November?

Deb Marke (31:35):

So, I know that people are probably really tired of living through unprecedented times-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:39):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (31:40):

… but what unprecedented times.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

Yeah (laughs).

Deb Marke (31:44):

(laughs) Such a historical moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:46):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:47):

And I think that we are really at a time in our politic as, like, a country-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:52):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:52):

… of deciding, “What does democracy mean?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:55):

And, “What does it mean to have a voice?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:58):

And, “Is this the voice that we want to have?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:59):

Right.

Deb Marke (32:00):

And so I think that, like, we all… kind of grappling with, like, what does this mean, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:04):

… what does this look like, and how do we move forward, in a time where we are just experiencing such deep polarization.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:11):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:11):

And that it feels like everything is just, like, on the precipice, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:14):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:14):

… like, very high stakes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:16):

And that’s a really difficult space to be in.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

Sure.

Deb Marke (32:18):

And so, while that doesn’t make me super excited-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:20):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (32:21):

… it brings me a little bit of anxiety (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (32:22):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:23):

But, I think the part that makes it feel exciting is knowing that for a lot of young people, particularly people on our campus, this is gonna be the first presidential election that they get to vote in,-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:36):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:37):

… and that’s so different.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:38):

Sure.

Deb Marke (32:38):

Like, it’s a different experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:39):

Right.

Deb Marke (32:39):

… and we know-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:39):

And-

Deb Marke (32:41):

… that if you vote when you’re younger, you’re more likely to be a lifelong voter.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:44):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:44):

But, there’s also just so much happening in North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:47):

(laughs) Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:48):

We have a really interesting governor’s race happening, because Governor Cooper has met his term limits, and so he is done. And so we have Josh Stein and Mark Robinson, who are really kind of neck-and-neck right now-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:01):

… and so it’s really interesting. The general assembly has completely shifted, and all of their seats are up, and so we are gonna see how it works out-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:09):

Sure.

Deb Marke (33:10):

… because the case around like our maps have completely changed, and they went to the Supreme Court, and they were like, “It’s not Constitutional,” and then, they went back and said, “It’s Constitutional,”-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:20):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (33:20):

… and so (laughs) there’s just a lot of different pieces, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:23):

A lot of back and forth.

Deb Marke (33:24):

… here in Winston and Forsyth County, I’m a big proponent of local elections.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:28):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:28):

I love local government.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:31):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (33:31):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (33:31):

There are a lot of ways for folks, everyday people, to be able to be involved in shaping how we define and think about our community.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:37):

Sure.

Deb Marke (33:38):

But we have so many city council seats that are being contested for the first time in like 20 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:43):

Wow.

Deb Marke (33:43):

The county commissioners, who make all, a lot of decisions around, like, our money and budget, particularly around, like, roads and schools-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:51):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:51):

… and housing (laughs) in particular.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:52):

Sure.

Deb Marke (33:53):

One of the things I hear a lot of students say is that, like, “I just don’t see people who look like me, or like-“

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:59):

… “are around the same age, like, who are running, and, like, sharing my thoughts and opinions,” and it’s like, I hear that, and sometimes, that means some of us need to be willing-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:08):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:09):

… and ready to run.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (34:09):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (34:10):

That’s so true, because there is this relevance issue. I think the disconnect, sometimes, with young voters is they see all of these people in the spotlight that don’t reflect their ideals, and then they’re just become apathetic-

Deb Marke (34:22):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

… to that. But it’s a great paradigm shift to say, “Okay, so why don’t you get in the arena and be a part of it?”

Deb Marke (34:28):

Yeah. And also, regardless of who ends up in office, that person still represents you.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:33):

Sure.

Deb Marke (34:33):

So, if they aren’t speaking to things that you think are really important, then how are we leveraging, like, our skills to either call, or-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:42):

… write letters-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:43):

… to go to meetings, to attend rallies, whatever it may be, and thinking about how are we building coalitions-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:49):

… to be able to, like, make sure that people are hearing, like, our issues, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:53):

Right.

Deb Marke (34:53):

… how are we articulating that? Because it’s one thing to say, like, “Hey, we need more bike lanes.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:58):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (34:58):

Which, like, yeah, we actually really do.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:00):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (35:01):

And it’s a big safety issue. But if I go to the city council meeting, and I’m talking about, like, Peters Creek Parkway-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:07):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (35:07):

… unfortunately, they’re gonna be like, “We don’t oversee that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (35:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:10):

So, knowing who holds power-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:11):

Right.

Deb Marke (35:12):

… what questions to ask, and where you need to go is, like, also this part of the political process that we just don’t really talk about.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:18):

Yeah. Yeah. So, you are so knowledgeable-

Deb Marke (35:20):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (35:20):

… about all these things, (laughs) and you mentioned you were a first-year student when you got to participate, so-

Deb Marke (35:26):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (35:26):

… when did you become so engaged in the discussion, both, I would guess, personally and professionally?

Deb Marke (35:33):

I think personally, growing up in a household where you are supporting your parents in becoming citizens.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:40):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:40):

Like, my parents became citizens when I was in, like, fourth grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:43):

Wow.

Deb Marke (35:43):

And so, watching that process was really interesting,-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:46):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:47):

… and my parents vote in every election.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:49):

(laughs) Because it-

Deb Marke (35:50):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (35:50):

… means so much, you know? It wasn’t guaranteed for them.

Deb Marke (35:54):

They brought us to every single-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:55):

… ele- We talk a lot about politics in our house-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:02):

… and we’re not always in agreeance, so we’re just kind of like, I love to hear other people’s perspectives. Coming here, realizing that is not the norm-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:07):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (36:07):

… was a little bit like, “What-“

Shea Kidd Brown (36:08):

What? (laughs).

Deb Marke (36:12):

(laughs) I think part for me that, like, it all feels interconnected, is that in order to be able to create a space where people can share, and share something that maybe, like, they’re in disagreement, or, like, whatever that may be, it’s all about creating a space that people can practice vulnerability-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:26):

… and people can practice building trust.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:28):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:29):

It’s really hard to, like, talk about things that are really complex and really challenging when there isn’t any trust-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:34):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:35):

… and there isn’t a place where you can be vulnerable-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:37):

Right.

Deb Marke (36:37):

… where you can be wrong, or you can be right, or people aren’t gonna try and, like, shift your opinion.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:43):

Right, or just, “I’m not knowledgeable,” to be a-

Deb Marke (36:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:45):

The vulnerability to say, “I don’t know.”

Deb Marke (36:48):

And I think creating those spaces feels really important to me-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:51):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:52):

… and I think that at the crux of any good work around polit- politics or social action is really creating a space where people feel empowered-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:01):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (37:02):

… and that their voices are heard.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Yeah, and that’s so much of what your work is around Deacs Decide, and I know it, it’s an initiative that in many ways, is student-oriented, student-run, but it takes leadership to help them-

Deb Marke (37:12):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (37:12):

… to empower them, to develop. It’s really impressive. I would encourage everyone to check out the Deacs Decide website on our Wake Forest website, but the question that I’m really grappling with is, you know, you had this, these models, so it was really embedded in your childhood, you know, and that was just a natural thing for you. For those who are, for whatever reason, just not interested… ‘Cause apathy is just, like, sort of flat, I think (laughs). You know, some people are just anti. Like, “As a young person, I can’t make a difference.” So, how do you get them to lean in to the conversation and to engage?

Deb Marke (37:46):

One thing that I have found to be really helpful is really thinking about something that feels really real. I do this workshop where we talk about how we construct communities-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (37:55):

… and then, thinking about, like, Wake Forest as a community, and when we think about Wake Forest as a community, sometimes people say like, “Oh, like, Wake Forest is a bubble,” like, X, Y, and Z. I’m like, “Yeah, and how does that make you feel?”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:07):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:08):

And they’re like, “Well, sometimes it makes me feel really sad,” or there’s some people who are like, “I know that’s not really true because I go off campus.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:14):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:14):

Like, “I volunteer at all these places.” And I’m like, so when we think about Wake Forest, it’s about the culture, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (38:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:20):

And the culture is created by the people who work here-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:24):

… and the people that also go to school here-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:26):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (38:26):

… and the people that also live here.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:27):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:28):

So we are all responsible-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:30):

Sure.

Deb Marke (38:30):

… for this culture. So, if there are things that we want to see shift and change, that’s actually within the realm-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:35):

… of our sphere of influence-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:37):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:38):

… to shift and change. And sometimes, it’s even smaller, of like thinking about your student organization.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:42):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:42):

Like, if you wanna see your student org be more inclusive, or have more people with different perspectives, how are you reaching out to folks?

Shea Kidd Brown (38:50):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:50):

How do people know, outside of just the Involvement Fair-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:53):

Right.

Deb Marke (38:53):

… or maybe just talking to your, only your friends? How can we be a little bit more creative-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:59):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:59):

… and also, how do we lean into taking risk?

Shea Kidd Brown (39:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (39:02):

Knowing that sometimes, like, we have to be okay with failing, ’cause sometimes, we have to be willing to fail, and we also have to-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (39:09):

… be willing to also, like, succeed, and sometimes, that can be a little bit scarier, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:14):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I, tongue-in-cheek, say, “We don’t like to fail,” but this is a community, professionals and students alike are drawn to it for that reason, and so it feels risky. It feels vulnerable to say, “I’m gonna try this, and I don’t know if it’s gonna work out,” but then the beauty of the learning that happens, and generally speaking, failure doesn’t happen. It may be an outcome that you are surprised by (laughs).

Deb Marke (39:36):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (39:36):

I’ll say, “Oh, that’s so fascinating.” (laughs) Um-

Deb Marke (39:38):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (39:39):

“What can I learn?” You know? “How can I go back?” And so I do think that is really important for people. Think about, as a first-year student, “What can I do with my roommate? How can I become educated if there’s something that I don’t understand?” And this is a lesson I learned later in life, but from the political frame, I tend to really read about people that I don’t know about, or people that I think I disagree with, because that humanizing factor is also really important, and we see a lot of dehumanization, particularly in political elections on all sides, and when you start to say someone’s name (laughs) and their children’s name as opposed to position, you have to think about that a little bit differently. And I think that’s part of your work, too.

Deb Marke (40:23):

We’re in such an interesting time. Social media, for better or for worse-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (40:27):

… has made access to information so easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:30):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (40:31):

… not always the most accurate-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:32):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:32):

(laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:33):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:33):

… information, and also has made it really interesting for us to feel emboldened to sometimes say or do things online-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:40):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (40:40):

… that we actually wouldn’t do in-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:42):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:43):

… person, and so, oftentimes, it can be really easy to flash our values-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:46):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (40:47):

… but I’m always really curious around, like, how are you living them?

Shea Kidd Brown (40:50):

Sure.

Deb Marke (40:51):

I should just know if-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:52):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:52):

… someone says-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:52):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (40:53):

I hope that if someone thinks of me and they think about the values that I hold, things around, like, I really believe in community.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:00):

I really believe in care. Like, I believe in, like, autonomy-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:04):

… and agency. Like, I hope that those things come through-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:06):

Right.

Deb Marke (41:07):

… like my actions, the programs that I put on, my words versus [inaudible 00:41:10]-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:10):

You saying them.

Deb Marke (41:11):

Yeah, or-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:11):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:12):

… the things I post on my story.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:13):

Right.

Deb Marke (41:13):

And so I think it’s like how do we take some of the pieces that social media has made easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:19):

… and, like, how do we translate them back into the real world-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:22):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (41:22):

… where we feel like we can maybe wear that shirt or-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:26):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (41:26):

… whatever, but also, if someone were to come up to me and say like, “Hey, I really wanna learn more about why elections, like, matter.”

Shea Kidd Brown (41:32):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:32):

That, I can have that conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:34):

Right.

Deb Marke (41:34):

… with that person, and come from a place of, like, curiosity-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:37):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:37):

… rather than, like, being immediately ready to, like, shut down.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:40):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (41:40):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (41:41):

That’s the world, and you are absolutely right. I think elections have taken a turn since the early 2000s, with the advent of (laughs) you know, all of the things, and it is much easier to troll (laughs) and to comment, as opposed to saying, “Hey, Deb. When you said (laughs) X, I’m really curious about that,” or, you know, an example that I gave recently, a friend that I’ve been connected to for a long, long time on social media, posted something that I was really like, “I don’t think that’s true.” You know? (laughs) And instead of commenting, and now I didn’t call that person, we don’t have a, a relationship like that, but I did send a message to them. Just said, “Hey, I just wanted you to be aware, like, I’m not writing to debate. Hope you and your family are well. I just wanted to send you this fact check link, ’cause this is a neutral site that really can go through all the points that you made and I just wanted to make sure you were aware that’s where I tend to get my information.” So, because I’ve heard you to also talk about literacy, just on the web in general, I think, is a good principle, regardless if it’s politics or something else. Like, something shouldn’t be true just because you saw it online. (laughs)

(42:46):

And that contagion that sometimes happens, you know, it’s the copy paste, and the thing that happens is really challenging to… You can’t see us, but we’re both linked in to this conversation. I think that’s a lost art. And something that you’ve created this year is Deacon Dialogues, to really create some of those spaces to just be vulnerable, to fail, if we don’t want to use that word, in a space where there’s grace, and there’s facilitators. And so will you talk a little bit about Deacon Dialogues, and what you hope to achieve?

Deb Marke (43:15):

Yeah. So Deacon Dialogue is really a place where people can come together and be in dialogue with one another, and really knowing that, like, you don’t always have to walk into a conversation ready to defend yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (43:28):

It takes a lot of practice to actively listen and listening to people to truly understand versus just respond.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (43:36):

I think the biggest skills, is [inaudible 00:43:38] Deacon Dialogue.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:38):

A huge skill, yeah.

Deb Marke (43:39):

And we have low hanging fruit from like, “Let’s Talks”, where we are just talking about, like a particular topic and hearing from other people, their perspectives, of like, how they grew up, how they were socialized, like, what are they really grappling with? And then we also have Deliberative Dialogues, which are more policy based-

Shea Kidd Brown (43:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (43:57):

… but I personally love them.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:58):

Mm-hmm. Of course you do. (laughs)

Deb Marke (44:01):

You’re taking these really big ideas and looking at all the different opinions that are out there, but like, at the end of the day, we have to talk about the pros. We have to talk about the cons.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:11):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:12):

And then, if we have the power, what are we deciding?

Shea Kidd Brown (44:15):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:16):

And we have to work together to build consensus-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:18):

Okay.

Deb Marke (44:19):

… to, like, move forward-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:20):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (44:20):

… with that policy. And that, I think, is just building consensus, is just such a difficult-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:26):

Yes, it is. (laughs)

Deb Marke (44:27):

… (laughs) skill. Um, and so practicing that and flexing it in a space that’s a little lower stakes, feels good.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:32):

Right.

Deb Marke (44:33):

And then lastly, we have our Dinner and Dialogue Series, which is really to kind of model what dialogue-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:37):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:38):

… can look like and taking things that maybe feel a little bit like sticky for us.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:42):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (44:42):

So, faith in politics. What is the role of faith? And when we say faith, who’s faith? How does that intersect with our political identity?

Shea Kidd Brown (44:51):

That’s right.

Deb Marke (44:52):

Thinking about race in politics-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:54):

… and like how people may have been socialized. And then also talking about things that, like, maybe we just don’t know a lot about. I don’t know a lot about AI, and I know that this is our first election cycle where AI is fully out there and thriving.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:07):

Yes.

Deb Marke (45:07):

And so how do we navigate through that?

Shea Kidd Brown (45:09):

That’s right.

Deb Marke (45:09):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (45:10):

Going back to our thread about truth, that makes it really hard to cut across. Like AI has the ability to dub voices, to change lip structures, how it open… Is that true- How do you know, you know? It’s moving so fast. And I love all three treatments. I especially love the last one that you talk about, because something about a meal together, and the ability to say, generally speaking, at dinner, you don’t start with, “Hey, (laughs) what are your politics?” But one of the most intimate things we can do, I think, is share a meal with people. And so I love that you’ve added that into the mix, because I think that’ll be really special.

Deb Marke (45:47):

And I think it, kind of, ties back to, like, the beginning of our conversation.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:50):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (45:50):

There’s something about, like, a good meal, a good conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (45:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (45:54):

… and just, like, learning and being together and being present, that I hope can create a sense of, like, “I can do this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (46:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (46:02):

Like, sometimes we can talk about things that feel really challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:05):

Right.

Deb Marke (46:05):

And it doesn’t have to be scary.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:07):

No.

Deb Marke (46:08):

And it doesn’t have to be harmful.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:09):

Right. And I don’t have to hate you because you think something else. (laughs)

Deb Marke (46:12):

Yeah. It’s like, I can just say, like, “Hey, I’m glad I understand. And maybe this isn’t for me, and at least I have some other things that maybe I can consider.”

Shea Kidd Brown (46:21):

Right, and I can still respect you as a person, because now I know a little bit more about where that’s coming from. And that to me, I’m hopeful, I believe our community is special. Th- that’s why I’m here. I know it’s why you’re back, and so I’m just so grateful that you’re leading this effort, and, you know, certainly encourage people in our community to be a part of it. And this isn’t something we’re just doing for fall. This will be something that’s sustained, but it’s especially important right now as we enter these really polarizing times.

Deb Marke (46:49):

Yeah, and I just think that, if you have questions or you’re not sure, always ask. Don’t be afraid to ask. I have sat with many a students, calling their local board of elections (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (47:00):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (47:01):

… and walking through, like, the questions that need to be asked, things for clarity, just to make sure that, like, if voting at home is really important to you, don’t let deadlines be the barrier for you to not cast your ballot.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:13):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (47:13):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (47:14):

That’s really good advice. Well, I’m just so thankful for all the work that you’re doing there. Now, after all you’ve talked about, and that was just one part of your job, there’s a lot more parts (laughs) of your job that we probably don’t have time for in, for this episode. But I’m also thinking about Deb outside of Wake Forest, and we talked a few months ago about your chaos garden. So, I’m curious, what do you do to preserve your well-being, and, you know, to take care of yourself as you’re also thinking about some issues that can be heavy, at times?

Deb Marke (47:43):

Yeah, I am a really big proponent of care and practicing my own boundaries-

Shea Kidd Brown (47:48):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (47:48):

… which, like, I have come to realize that, like, I have to communicate my boundaries to people and, like, make sure that I’m holding true to them.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:55):

Sure.

Deb Marke (47:56):

I love to go to spin. You will see me at CycleBar. I go there three to four times a week.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:02):

That’s awesome.

Deb Marke (48:03):

Don’t budge on my 45 minutes.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:04):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (48:05):

Like sometimes, the only 45 minutes-

Shea Kidd Brown (48:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:07):

… that I get for myself in a day. So, I schedule out all of my classes three weeks in advance.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:12):

Are you serious? (laughs)

Deb Marke (48:13):

Yeah. I look at my calendar, I map out my month, and I’m like, “This is when I’m going to spin.”

Shea Kidd Brown (48:16):

I need my spot. (laughs)

Deb Marke (48:17):

(laughs) Every night, I take a little bit of my night routine, and I do some, like, gratitude. And I have my little mantras for the year.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:26):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:27):

This year, my mantra is, this is voluntary, and this is temporary, because I am in the throes of grad school.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:32):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:34):

And sometimes I’m like, “This is a lot.” But voluntary, temporary, and we’re, like, right where we need to be. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (48:39):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:40):

I am a big reader. I read mostly fantasy, mostly romance.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:44):

Okay.

Deb Marke (48:44):

Love it. It’s my favorite thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:46):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (48:46):

I read at least 10 minutes, every single day.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:48):

Really?

Deb Marke (48:49):

Even if it’s just a few pages-

Shea Kidd Brown (48:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:51):

… I’m like, “We’re gonna read.”

Shea Kidd Brown (48:52):

That’s good.

Deb Marke (48:52):

And then, being outside. Love being in the dirt. Love planting.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:56):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (48:56):

My chaos garden is now thriving.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:59):

Okay, good.

Deb Marke (48:59):

My [inaudible 00:48:59] have gotten so tall.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:01):

Aah.

Deb Marke (49:01):

And so, I have a veggie garden. I do a lot of sunflowers. I just love plants. I have a native plant garden. And then, also just making time to be with people that, that make me feel loved and-

Shea Kidd Brown (49:14):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (49:14):

… cared for and supported. So every Friday, I watch Drag Race, or The Amazing Race.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:20):

Nice.

Deb Marke (49:21):

And have some people over, and those are some of the things that I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:25):

Yeah. Well, sounds like a very much a discipline. You know, we talk about practicing gratitude or practicing mindfulness, because it has to be a three-week out priority, because our schedules are full, and I know CycleBar is popular, and so if you don’t plan and create the structure to allow for that, it goes by the wayside. And so many people in the work that we do, we are so oriented toward caring for students that we have to be very, very focused on, “What does that also look like for us?” So, thanks for modeling that.

Deb Marke (49:57):

How can I tell other people that they need to rest and like-

Shea Kidd Brown (49:59):

Yeah. (laughs)

Deb Marke (50:00):

… take time for themselves if I don’t do that? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (50:01):

Right. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, Pro Humanitate is something that is important to our community. We talk about it all the time, “for humanity,” and oftentimes that’s outward, you know. But it’s also, should be inward, (laughs) in terms of, how am I becoming a better person? How am I taking care of my person? (laughs) You know, all of those kinds of things. So, as we begin to wrap, I can’t leave this conversation without hearing you say a little bit about how you’ve internalized Pro Humanitate, and how you try to live that out throughout your days?

Deb Marke (50:29):

Wake is just so unique, because our motto actually like, is something that people know and-

Shea Kidd Brown (50:33):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (50:34):

… [inaudible 00:50:34] really close thinking about the little things that I do on the day-to-day. Like, “How am I leaving this space better than how I found it? How am I encouraging? How am I pouring in? How am I challenging? How am I supporting?” And then it’s also sometimes the more tangible, like my partner and I volunteer with the Humane Society. We foster through that. We also do a lot of education around the importance of spay and neutering. And I’m really passionate about reproductive justice, and so I’m a doula, and so really thinking about, how do we make these services more accessible so that-

Shea Kidd Brown (51:07):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (51:08):

… people can have dignified and safe birthing experiences?

Shea Kidd Brown (51:12):

Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Marke (51:12):

And so sometimes it’s big, and then sometimes it’s small.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:14):

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (51:15):

And I think that all of that really encompasses Pro Humanitate.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:19):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (51:19):

And is accessible to everybody.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:21):

Yeah, and it’s a beautiful articulation of at home and in the world, as we’ve been really leaned into our Strategic Framework. And it’s sort of our manifesto now that Wake Forest will embody Pro Humanitate at home and in the world. And I don’t know about you, but for me, a lot of what we do is in service to students on campus. And so you’ve really figured out a sweet spot of also, “What does that mean in the community? What does that mean in my life?” So, thank you for that.

Deb Marke (51:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:47):

I’ll lastly ask you, just, what are you hopeful for as you think about the future? I know you are wrapping up a master’s, that master’s program, that you were encouraged to do.

Deb Marke (51:56):

(laughs) I am really hopeful about, sort of, like, the energy of our campus. I think that, like, I am so excited about hearing from our students and what they’re passionate about, what they’re thinking about, what they are excited for, and what they hope to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (52:17):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (52:17):

And I think for me, like, on a personal level, I really believe a lot in, like, reimagining the world that we want to see. And I am so inspired by the people that are doing such great work, it’s really easy to overlook-

Shea Kidd Brown (52:34):

Sure.

Deb Marke (52:34):

… all the beauty and all the good that is happening, when it just feels like there’s a lot of heaviness.

Shea Kidd Brown (52:39):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (52:40):

And so, I just feel like in a 100 years (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (52:44):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (52:44):

… when I am no longer here, I know that one day, there are going to be students and people who are navigating the world and will never have to experience the things that I’ve experienced, because we have come together enough to do the work-

Shea Kidd Brown (53:00):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (53:01):

… the really hard work, to create a more just and gracious and empathetic society. People can really thrive.

Shea Kidd Brown (53:08):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (53:08):

And so, that’s what keeps me going.

Shea Kidd Brown (53:09):

Wow.

Deb Marke (53:12):

A little cradle of joy. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (53:12):

Yeah, well that’s a, a lot to be hopeful for. So, and a good way for us to end. Thank you so much for being a part-

Deb Marke (53:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (53:17):

… of the conversation. I learned so much from you today.

Deb Marke (53:19):

Thanks for asking. These are really good questions. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (53:22):

(laughs) I try, I try.

Thank you so much for listening. And as always, I feel so grateful to sit in this seat and in this case, to work alongside such a great person. I learned a lot during this conversation, that admittedly, I’m still processing it, but I’m thinking about cassava leaves, reminded of the tangible connections to home [inaudible 00:53:46] provides. I loved hearing Deb’s perspective about helping and how that created pathways in her leadership journey. I’m processing a lot, like, figuring out what belonging means to me. Finding my voice. That dissonance is okay. How important mentorship is, and how critical it is to find people who are safe. That we can do hard things. That sometimes, we count ourselves out. And that it’s the little moments that mean the most.

(54:19):

Deb gave us so much to think about. In addition to all of these nuggets, certainly, the election is front and center, and it’s so important to lean into conversation. She talked about doing our homework and staying informed to make good decisions and doing whatever it needs to be done, whenever we see a need. We all have such an opportunity to make a difference in this world. I “Kidd” you not. Let’s lean into this important season with hard work and heart work. Thank you again for listening.

MaryAnna Bailey (54:54):

For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

S2| Episode 1: Kevin Dunn

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with four graduating seniors from the Class of 2024. This is the second part of our special two-parter episode with these guests! Cate Pitterle, Badr Merdassi, Sydney Smith, and Sean Brady all join us once again to reflect specifically on the things and people they are most thankful for in their time here at Wake. They also leave us with advice that they would each like to share with underclassmen in the forest and what they may have done differently when looking back.

Transcript:

MUSIC (00:02):

(music)

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Today, I have the pleasure of talking with Kevin Dunn. Kevin is a senior at Wake Forest University, where he is studying Politics and International Affairs and Classical Studies. He’s minoring in Communication. Kevin is a familiar face on campus where he is a member of the Wake Forest men’s basketball team, president of Hit The Bricks, which is coming up this fall, and a tour guide, just to name a few. Last summer, he earned the prestigious Richter Scholarship, where he studied the Ukrainian diaspora. And this summer, he’s spent some time in New York City as an intern. I am looking so forward to our conversation today.

(00:41):

So hi, Kevin.

Kevin Dunn (00:42):

Dr. Shea Kidd Brown, how you doing today?

Shea Kidd Brown (00:44):

I’m good. How are you?

Kevin Dunn (00:45):

Great. Thanks for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:47):

Thanks for being here. You know, I always laugh when you say, “Dr. Shea Kidd Brown,” (laughs) because you just say my whole name whenever you see me on campus. It makes me smile, so-

Kevin Dunn (00:54):

When I first met you, I thought it was your full last name, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:56):

Oh. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (00:56):

I-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:57):

So you just said it all. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (00:59):

Now it’s just locked it in my head. I can’t change it, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:59):

Yeah. Well, that makes sense. That makes sense. Dr. Shea is also okay.

Kevin Dunn (01:04):

I’ll try.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:04):

Well, I know you have a busy schedule, so thanks for making time to be here.

Kevin Dunn (01:09):

Oh, thanks. I listened to all the podcasts before.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

Oh?

Kevin Dunn (01:11):

I listened to Coach Forbes’s. It won’t be as funny or entertaining-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:13):

(laughs)

Kevin Dunn (01:13):

… as he is, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:14):

Well…

Kevin Dunn (01:14):

… I’ll try my best. He’s the best, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:15):

Every story has merit, and-

Kevin Dunn (01:17):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:17):

… is funny, and all those things, so…

Kevin Dunn (01:19):

Well, I have no Iowa City stories, but I’ll do my best.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:22):

Yeah. I, I bet you have some stories, though.

Kevin Dunn (01:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

So as you know, because you listen to the podcast, you know, this is really about getting to know you, your story. Nobody can tell it better than you because it’s yours, so that’s really no pressure. Everybody comes into these a little nervous, including me. So we have had a chance, thankfully, to connect several times since I started in my role, but we’ve really never had just a conversation without a meal, just talking about deeper things, so I’m looking forward to that so-

Kevin Dunn (01:51):

I’m excited to be here. I’m honored.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:51):

Thank you. I am too, honored you said yes.

Kevin Dunn (01:53):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:54):

So, and I know it’s a big year. You’re a senior, so lots going on, so I look forward to digging into that. But because you’ve listened to the podcast, you can guess what my first question is gonna be.

Kevin Dunn (02:02):

Where I’m from.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

Yeah. Or where’s home for you?

Kevin Dunn (02:05):

Where’s home. [inaudible 00:02:06]

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Yeah, yeah (laughs). So I am curious, you know, where is home and who was Kevin before Kevin was at Wake Forest?

Kevin Dunn (02:12):

Yeah. So I was born in Philadelphia. And then when I was four years old, moved to Los Angeles-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:16):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (02:16):

… Santa Monica. I was eight and moved to Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Never heard of it. [inaudible 00:02:23].

Shea Kidd Brown (02:22):

(laughs) You had never heard of it before.

Kevin Dunn (02:23):

Ne- I’d never heard of it, but I was super excited. Really nervous to move into Winston-Salem, and my dad and I signed up for a father-son basketball camp. Lived in Davis for three days.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Davis Hall?

Kevin Dunn (02:31):

Davis Hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Really? Oh my gosh.

Kevin Dunn (02:32):

The dorm which I then stayed in sophomore year.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

No way. I did not know this. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (02:35):

Um, we were roommates for three days. Had an absolute blast. What I remember is I’d been so nervous about moving to Winston-Salem-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:40):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (02:40):

… and then went to camp and I was like, “This is the best place ever,” you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (02:44):

Was a humongous Wake Forest fan from then on and I wanted to play college basketball-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

Wow.

Kevin Dunn (02:48):

… when I was in second grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:49):

I did not know that. Your family has a history of basketball, right?

Kevin Dunn (02:52):

Right, so my great grandmother played college basketball on one side, and my grandfather played basketball in college-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (02:58):

… and he beat Wilt Chamberlain in high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:59):

No way.

Kevin Dunn (03:00):

And then didn’t play that much in college, and then three of my uncles played college basketball and didn’t play very much, so that part runs in the family as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:06):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:06):

Uh, not playing very much. But, uh, we have a lot of basketball in my family and we love it. My dad played in high school. My brother did as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:12):

And your brother also played football, right?

Kevin Dunn (03:14):

Football in college.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (03:14):

So, athletic family.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:15):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (03:16):

But I’m su- super proud to be, it’s my lifelong dream to play basketball at Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Yeah, that’s amazing.

Kevin Dunn (03:20):

So three years. And then I lived in Winston until I was a senior in high school. Then I did an extra year in high school-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:25):

… in Connecticut for basketball. And then I was going to commit to another school and then Wake Forest offered me, said yes on the phone, and then I had to call the other school back and say, “Hey, actually, no. I was gonna commit tomorrow, but got an offer I can’t refuse.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:35):

Hmm. You tracked back to, to being eight in Davis Hall.

Kevin Dunn (03:37):

Yep, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Yeah. Well, I, I didn’t know that. I didn’t realize you were so young when you moved to Winston, so that truly is home.

Kevin Dunn (03:43):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

That’s where you spent the majority of your time. Now, do you have memories from California at all?

Kevin Dunn (03:48):

I do, for sure, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:49):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:50):

It was, it was a lot of fun living in California. It’s very different than living in Winston. But I go back every year, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (03:54):

And then my dad used to work at the building next to Admissions, Starling Hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:58):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:58):

So I used to walk from Summit School, which is the middle school across the street-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kevin Dunn (04:01):

… to Starling Hall, like, every other day.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (04:02):

So I would literally be on campus every other day, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

Felt like a big kid on campus-

Kevin Dunn (04:06):

I did, I-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:06):

… even before you got here.

Kevin Dunn (04:08):

… used to work with my dad and I used to go the dining hall, and I thought it was the best place in the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (04:09):

Thought it was so cool.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Like, you can eat anything you want.

Kevin Dunn (04:11):

Oh yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

You can have pizza every day. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (04:13):

The ice cream machine was, like, a hit for me, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:15):

Well, it’s bringing back memories for me because my son has grown up in higher ed, too, and so he’s older now, but those same kinds of things exist for him, so I’ll be interested in where he chooses to go to college. So, you moved here in second grade. Tell me, you loved basketball, so that was a big thing.

Kevin Dunn (04:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

But what else do you remember about being a kid? Uh, what kind of child were you? What, what was your personality?

Kevin Dunn (04:38):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

(laughs)

Kevin Dunn (04:39):

I had a speech impediment, so I beat that, so I didn’t talk that much in class.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:42):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (04:42):

So once I was, in, like, fifth grade, started talking a lot in class. I remember just having, like, really tight friends.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:47):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (04:47):

And I loved playing football as well. I used to go to all the Wake football games, and I always loved, like, writing-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:52):

Yeah, say-

Kevin Dunn (04:53):

… so that kind of correlated to the politics major.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:54):

Say more about, so with the speech impediment-

Kevin Dunn (04:56):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:57):

… you said that was something you have to over- how did that manifest when you were young?

Kevin Dunn (05:00):

I was born, like, partially deaf.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (05:02):

And they ended up fixing it, but I couldn’t say my Rs, Ls, Ss, or Ts.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (05:06):

So it was, like, half the alphabet I couldn’t say.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

Wow.

Kevin Dunn (05:07):

A lot of work to, to beat it.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:08):

Sure.

Kevin Dunn (05:09):

But I didn’t talk that much when I was, like, in class.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:10):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (05:11):

And then once I finally was able to, like, talk and say, like, the words I couldn’t say, talked a lot more in class.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (05:16):

And I kinda became more extroverted.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:17):

Yeah, I was gonna say-

Kevin Dunn (05:18):

[inaudible 00:05:18]

Shea Kidd Brown (05:18):

… I would have never guessed. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (05:19):

Yeah. So, my dad’s pretty introverted or maybe a little bit, and my mom was very extroverted, so I think I kinda, like, went from him to her a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:24):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (05:25):

But my dad, my personality are very much alike.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:28):

And I appreciate you sharing that, because we all have journeys.

Kevin Dunn (05:30):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:30):

That’s the whole purpose of this podcast, is to learn that because the Kevin Dunn I know is a hype man.

Kevin Dunn (05:35):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:37):

(laughs) Like, that’s, I think about seeing you, you know, basketball games and your involvement as tour guide, and so it seems like you really took that, as you said, beat it.

Kevin Dunn (05:44):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:44):

You really kinda conquered that, um, so you can-

Kevin Dunn (05:47):

Yeah, not really scared to speak out loud in groups anymore.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (05:49):

Did Public Speaking at Wake as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:50):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (05:50):

Which was a good class [inaudible 00:05:51]

Shea Kidd Brown (05:51):

And Comm is, like, a minor.

Kevin Dunn (05:52):

Comm is, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:52):

(laughs) Right? One of your minors.

Kevin Dunn (05:52):

So Comm is a minor, lot of speaking as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:55):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (05:56):

So I feel like I’m able to talk in public a lot more and I actually kinda like it now.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:59):

Yeah, I love that.

Kevin Dunn (06:00):

It’s not really a fear anymore.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

So what are those most meaningful experiences you’ve had at Wake? Because you’re on the basketball team, but you’re also involved in a lot of things that you just talked about.

Kevin Dunn (06:09):

Right. What I love about Wake Forest is that a lot of schools I was touring was the athletes live in XYZ dorm and no one else lives there.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:16):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (06:16):

Athletes eat at this dining hall. And Wake athletes are involved in everything-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (06:19):

… which I love. There’s not really a, it’s [inaudible 00:06:22] cool to be another student.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:22):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (06:22):

I mean, Coach Forbes says all the time, you know, as talented as you are in the court, person next to you’s as talented in that subject.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:27):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (06:27):

And it’s something that I think all of our players, all our teammates take to heart, is that people next to you are really, can be really special and they already are really special. Sitting next to you in class, people are gonna be CEOs or doctors, etc., etc.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (06:38):

And I met some really awesome guys my first week of school, and I just realized that Coach was speaking facts about that-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:44):

(laughs)

Kevin Dunn (06:44):

… and I love everybody Wake, and I feel like it’d be a disservice to myself and my teammates just to only hang out with basketball players.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (06:50):

And I’ve met a lot of great guys, so I think, my memories that I think about a lot are not even on the court. It’s, you know, just funny moments from, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:56):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (06:57):

… living in a hall of nine guys sophomore year and-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:00):

(laughs) You’ll learn a lot then.

Kevin Dunn (07:00):

… our shenanigans there. Yeah, we learn a lot. You know, being in a fraternity’s been a lot of fun. Working with Hit the Bricks has been a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:06):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (07:06):

Tour guide’s been a lot of fun. And I feel like, you know, getting involved on campus and jumping in two feet first and you got to make your bubble bigger and bigger and bigger.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:13):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (07:14):

And I think a lot of people at other schools kinda make a smaller bubble by just hanging out with their fraternity or-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:18):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (07:18):

… hanging out with their sorority or hanging out with their sport. Getting to be able to get involved in so much and everyone wants to be involved in other things, and people kinda embrace who you are, whether that be on the court or in the classroom, XYZ, and this is a great community-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:30):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (07:30):

… where everyone wants to be involved and everyone wants to get to know their people.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:33):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (07:33):

It’s super fun. I love Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:35):

Yeah, I love it too. And that’s one of the many things I love about our students. And I will say you’re not gonna brag on yourself, but I will. (laughs) Because your story’s not every student’s story. Uh, when Kevin Dunn is announced at a basketball game, the whole student section goes crazy. (laughs) So, I think you’ve really made an impact on the community, and it’s important for you to know that.

(07:53):

I really wanna talk about Hit the Bricks. B- you’ve been involved, but this is really a big year for you.

Kevin Dunn (07:57):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:58):

You’re the president. Tell me a little bit about how you got involved in Hit the Bricks and what it means to you, what we can expect from this fall as we gear up for that.

Kevin Dunn (08:07):

I need you on my job interviews, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

(laughs)

Kevin Dunn (08:09):

You’re, you’re killing it for me right now. But on Hit the Bricks, I started second grade as well. My dad had a team-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:13):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (08:15):

… when I was in elementary school and I started running and thought it was so much fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:16):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (08:17):

Then my mom’s also a nurse at the hospital and does a lot of cancer patients, so I, I wanted to do it just for that. Wake ‘N Shake I missed my freshman year because I was at a basketball game.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:25):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (08:25):

And Hit the Bricks was just so much fun. I don’t love dancing either, so Hit the Bricks kinda gravitated towards me.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

(laughs) A little less pressure there.

Kevin Dunn (08:31):

S- yeah, less pressure. Not as many people watching. So I loved Hit the Bricks. I thought it was so much fun. So my sophomore year, got involved as Corporate Sponsorship Chair.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:38):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (08:38):

Just raising money, asking companies. And I did pretty well because I’m from Winston and knew a lot of companies.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:43):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (08:43):

And then junior year, Abby Draeger was the president last year, did an amazing job. She asked me to be her vice president as a junior, and said yes, and then that led to me being president this year.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:52):

Wow.

Kevin Dunn (08:53):

And it’s just such a great cause and, you know, doesn’t really feel like work when you’re doing stuff for it. You’re making a difference. We had our whole team got to tour the Cancer Center.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:00):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (09:01):

And it just kinda shows you, like, this is what you’re working for.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

Doing it for.

Kevin Dunn (09:04):

And the doctors who work there, Cancer Center, showed us actually where the money went.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (09:09):

And it was just like, wow, that’s really special that we made a-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (09:11):

… small difference and kinda awesome.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:12):

Made a big difference.

Kevin Dunn (09:13):

Yeah, hopefully this year we break the $30,000 dollars as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:16):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (09:16):

Currently we’re just doing corporate sponsorship.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (09:18):

So, it’s just raising money, and then once we get back on campus it’s gonna be trying to get students to sign up.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:22):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (09:23):

I think one thing that we struggle with is that you can just kinda run on the quad and not sign up.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Ah.

Kevin Dunn (09:27):

And the point is you gotta sign up to raise money.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:29):

Right, right.

Kevin Dunn (09:30):

So we’re trying to change that a little bit this year-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:32):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (09:33):

… so everyone who runs signs up. But probably one, one of my favorite days on campus. I’m excited to have you here this year for it.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:37):

Yeah, me too.

Kevin Dunn (09:38):

Uh, everyone on campus, doesn’t matter if you’re in Greek life or you’re, if you’re the main guy in the play, like, everyone’s there-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:43):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (09:43):

… having fun. Everyone’s there as a whole Wake Forest community.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (09:44):

It’s really interesting.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:47):

It is one of those few days where everybody is out. Uh, I remember vividly my first one, and I’ve said this a few times since I’ve been at Wake. Most campuses, when they say tradition, it’s directly tied to a sports team or something like that, and here, generally speaking, people tie their tradition to philanthropy. So you think about Hit the Bricks. You think about Wake ‘N Shake or just Pro Humanitate, more generally speaking.

Kevin Dunn (10:11):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:12):

So it, that is really special about campus.

Kevin Dunn (10:14):

Yeah, I think Wake Forest is special as well just because we’ve worked so much to make our goal o- on Pro Humanitate.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:18):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (10:19):

I always say it incorrectly, but, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:21):

Well, it’s a mouthful. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (10:25):

Right, it’s definitely a mouthful, but I think it’s cool that a lot of our things go back to that. Like-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:26):

Yeah, and you mentioned, as you were talking about, the multidimensional aspects of being a Wake Forest student. So you’re a major in-

Kevin Dunn (10:32):

Politics and Classics.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:33):

And then a minor in Communications.

Kevin Dunn (10:35):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

How’d you come up with that?

Kevin Dunn (10:36):

Right, so Politics, I’m currently pre-law-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:39):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (10:40):

… and trying to figure out if I wanna go to law school or not. So, that’s the reason I did Politics.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:41):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (10:42):

And then Communication, my basketball advisor kind of said, “Hey, you should try it out.” I really liked it.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:46):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (10:47):

There’s so many fun classes. I took Screenwriting last year. Great class. And I took Public Speaking, so a lot of fun classes right there.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:52):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (10:53):

And then I also took Classics classes with Dr. Sloan, who I actually played basketball with growing up.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:57):

Really?

Kevin Dunn (10:58):

In a basketball league in Winston. He was like, “Hey, take some of my classes.” Took one of his classes, was like, “This is so interesting and not what I thought it would be.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:04):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (11:05):

And, you know, there’s not many Classics majors at Wake, but I think, you know, if you take a class, you’re just like, “This is so interesting. I wanna dig more into it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

Yeah, right.

Kevin Dunn (11:11):

So I, he met with me sophomore year. He’s like, “Kev, like, you gotta take X amount of more classes to be a Classics major. It’s so easy for you to do it.” And I was like, “Let’s do this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:17):

Sign me up.

Kevin Dunn (11:18):

So yes, the professors are all awesome.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:20):

Now, I know last summer you did a pretty significant tour internationally.

Kevin Dunn (11:24):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:24):

Was it connected to a, one of your specific areas of focus?

Kevin Dunn (11:27):

Right, so I’m most interested in international politics for my major.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:30):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (11:31):

And I did the Richter Scholarship. I got nominated for it. There’s a bunch of different things you can do with it. You can basically just say, “Hey, I wanna do this,” and they send you to a different country. One of my friends is currently in Australia doing, like, surf therapy, researching that.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:41):

Interesting.

Kevin Dunn (11:42):

So that’s super cool. So, when she figures out-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:44):

I need to go on some sites visits for these trips-

Kevin Dunn (11:45):

(laughs) Right, I know, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:47):

… because you guys come back and you’ve got all these great stories.

Kevin Dunn (11:49):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

I need to know what campus life is abroad.

Kevin Dunn (11:52):

Um, so I wanted to go abroad really badly, but I obviously can’t with basketball.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (11:55):

And my brother went abroad and, you know, Wake Forest, everyone goes abroad. So I was like, “Dang, I really wanna go abroad,” and talked to the faculty in the Study Abroad Office, who are all amazing, and they advised me to apply for this. And I applied for it, and I remember I was really interested in immigration and then also international-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:09):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (12:10):

… so I chose to do the Ukrainian immigration crisis.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Wow.

Kevin Dunn (12:13):

So, where were immigrants coming from after the war in Russia? And I went to, like, 21 different countries.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:18):

I was trying to remember the-

Kevin Dunn (12:18):

20 if you don’t count The Vatican.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:19):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (12:19):

But, you know, I’m Catholic. I had to go to The Vatican for my grandma.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:21):

Yes, of course.

Kevin Dunn (12:22):

And, uh, which she was very proud of me for that. I went to the intake center in each country and just kinda interviewed people there, see how they were doing it differently.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (12:29):

And I wrote a 30-page paper about how, uh, different countries were doing the intake centers differently-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:33):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (12:33):

… and why they were doing it differently. And super thankful for and grateful for that experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:36):

Do you feel like when you came back, of course there was a paper attached-

Kevin Dunn (12:40):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:40):

… but what are those kinda tangible lessons that you feel like you learned?

Kevin Dunn (12:43):

Well, you know, like, there’s definitely a lot of days of practice where I’m like, “Wow, this is really hard,” or, like, “Coach is really mad at us right now.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (12:49):

Or, “Sprints stink.” But when you think about what you saw in Europe and going to-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:52):

Hmm.

Kevin Dunn (12:52): … all those intake centers, just kinda puts it in perspective. You know, that S is not that hard, really. Shea Kidd Brown (12:55): Right. Kevin Dunn (12:56): Compared to what they’re going through. And kind of looking at the world in a global perspective kinda makes one seem a little bit smaller. Shea Kidd Brown (13:02): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (13:02): But it’s, kinda made me also realize I kinda wanna do a job regarding international politics. Shea Kidd Brown (13:05): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (13:05): So. Shea Kidd Brown (13:06): Well, I love that your learning actually came from when you came back. Kevin Dunn (13:09): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (13:09): Because of that perspective. Kevin Dunn (13:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (13:12): When I was 16, I went to Botswana, Africa, and that was my first time abroad, and so I will often talk about just the value of travel and seeing something different. It doesn’t mean we do it better in the U.S. or anything like that. Kevin Dunn (13:24): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (13:25): But it just gives you a perspective that there are multiple ways of knowing and doing and being, and it sounds like that’s some of the things that you learned. Kevin Dunn (13:31): Were you able to go abroad in college as well? Shea Kidd Brown (13:33): Well, I went abroad, but not under Study Abroad. Kevin Dunn (13:35): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (13:35): So I actually did four consecutive trips to Africa- Kevin Dunn (13:39): Oh, wow. Shea Kidd Brown (13:39): … uh, for four summers, so. Kevin Dunn (13:40): Was it Botswana each time? Shea Kidd Brown (13:41): No, so I went to South Africa, Mozambique, Lesotho, Namibia, Zambia, Zimbabwe. So I whitewater rafted down the Zambezi River- Kevin Dunn (13:51): Wow. Shea Kidd Brown (13:51): … when I was, yeah, 16. We went to Swaziland, I wanna say maybe when I was 19. They didn’t have running water, so I actually had to pump any water that I needed for any use. It was very remote, so I wanna go back. I don’t know that I wanna go back to pump water (laughs) but I definitely w- wanna go back- Kevin Dunn (14:06): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (14:07): … with these eyes that I have many, many years later. Kevin Dunn (14:10): That’s so cool. Shea Kidd Brown (14:10): Yeah. So you’ve mentioned basketball. It’s kinda been woven through- Kevin Dunn (14:14): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (14:14): … your experiences here, even from moving to Winston-Salem from the beginning. So tell me what that’s like, just being a member of the team. There’s so much changing in the world of collegiate athletics. And how are you making sense of all of that, and what are the lessons that you’re learning from being on the team? Kevin Dunn (14:31): I mean, I tell everyone about NIL. It’s just crazy when I got offered to be a third walk-on at Wake. It was, if coach bought me a burger or something or anyone, a fan bought me a burger, I would be not allowed to play next four years. Shea Kidd Brown (14:41): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (14:41): And now it’s, you know, fans of Texas are buying students cars. Shea Kidd Brown (14:44): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (14:44): So it’s, it’s wild how it’s changing, and I, it’s- Shea Kidd Brown (14:46): And that was really fast. Kevin Dunn (14:46): Really fast. Shea Kidd Brown (14:46): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (14:48): It’s, it’s ridiculous how fast it changed. I went from literally, you know, three weeks where it was can’t buy this to people buying Lamborghinis for Texas players, and I mean, I think Wake’s been doing a great job with it. I think John Currie’s amazing, uh, athletic director and I think [inaudible 00:15:00] Coach Forbes will figure it out. Shea Kidd Brown (15:01): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (15:01): And he’s been killing it with the NIL stuff and, you know, it’s just a changing game for that. You know, I heard whispers that eventually maybe walk-ons won’t be a thing anymore. I hope that doesn’t happen. But it’s just crazy how the game is changing and- Shea Kidd Brown (15:11): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (15:11): … wonder how much it will be, like, in 10 years, if we’ll still be, like, college sports or semi-pro. Shea Kidd Brown (15:16): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (15:16): But now that’s not really what we’re talking about. Shea Kidd Brown (15:17): Right. Kevin Dunn (15:18): But, you know, the team’s been great. I love playing basketball. I love our coaching staff and, you know, fellow walk-ons, the fellow scholarship guys. And it’s been really interesting all four years because, you know, the transfer portal has become way bigger of a thing since I started playing basketball. Shea Kidd Brown (15:30): Yeah, your team changes every year. Kevin Dunn (15:30): You know, in high school, you lose, like, two or three players and gain one and- Shea Kidd Brown (15:33): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (15:34): … since then, like, seven players leave, eight players, whatever. Shea Kidd Brown (15:36): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (15:37): And that’s not even Wake Forest. That’s just the norm now- Shea Kidd Brown (15:39): Right. Kevin Dunn (15:39): … in college basketball especially. You just have a different team each year- Shea Kidd Brown (15:42): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (15:42): … and, you know, I think it’s kinda sad when you lose a friend because, you know, a lot of guys talk to me on campus and be, “Oh, like, we lost X person. How do you feel about that? Are we gonna be better next year and w- or what?” I’m like, “You know what? That’s my friend I just left, I lost.” Shea Kidd Brown (15:53): (laughs) Right. Kevin Dunn (15:54): You know, that’s my friend I was roommates with- Shea Kidd Brown (15:54): Absolutely. Kevin Dunn (15:55): … my freshman year. You know, that’s kinda more of a just a, not really thinking about him as a piece on the board. Shea Kidd Brown (15:58): It’s not transactional, yeah. Kevin Dunn (16:00): Yeah it’s, but then you gain someone new and they’re, have a great personality. Shea Kidd Brown (16:02): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (16:03): You know, like, Efton and Hunter came in last year- Shea Kidd Brown (16:04): Right. Kevin Dunn (16:04): … and are such great guys. And, you know, I think about that all the time. Shea Kidd Brown (16:07): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (16:07): You get guys who’ve left. You got a lot of probably new guys this year who are gonna be a, just as amazing per- people on the court and off the court. So- Shea Kidd Brown (16:13): Yeah, and it is nice that this year, while there was certainly change, there are several who stayed. Kevin Dunn (16:19): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (16:20): And so that, I’ll be interested to see. Kevin Dunn (16:21): And we kept all of our captains. Shea Kidd Brown (16:22): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (16:23): Other than Andrew, but, I mean, I wish Andrew the best. But those guys we got back, I’m really excited to have back. Shea Kidd Brown (16:27): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (16:27): And so that’s awesome. I think the guys who transferred are all in spots that they’re pretty happy about. Coach Forbes helped them with that, too, so it’s kind of a testament to how great of a guy he is. Shea Kidd Brown (16:36): Yeah. So what are you looking forward to with this year’s season? Kevin Dunn (16:38): Looking forward to just all the walk-ons are the same this year. Shea Kidd Brown (16:40): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (16:40): So that’s exciting, all those guys. Love those guys. But I’m looking really forward to Cal, Stanford, [inaudible 00:16:45] Shea Kidd Brown (16:45): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (16:45): Those are three new- Shea Kidd Brown (16:47): The new, yeah. Kevin Dunn (16:47): I’ve seen every stadium in the ACC now, so it’s not as, like, fun when you go on away games. Shea Kidd Brown (16:51): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (16:52): My freshman year I got to the stadium and took a video and all that stuff. Shea Kidd Brown (16:55): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (16:55): And my junior year I realized I’d been to every stadium, so it wasn’t really, felt kinda old. Shea Kidd Brown (16:59): Okay. Kevin Dunn (16:59): So this year, going to California winter break will be a lot of fun. Shea Kidd Brown (17:01): Yeah. That’ll be a significant- Kevin Dunn (17:01): Or when- whenever our game is. Shea Kidd Brown (17:03): And have they announced all the exhibition games yet? Kevin Dunn (17:06): We’ve announced all our exhibitions, but not our ACC play. Shea Kidd Brown (17:08): Okay. Kevin Dunn (17:08): So we’re playing against Michigan in Greensboro, which I’m really excited about. Shea Kidd Brown (17:11): That’ll be great. Kevin Dunn (17:12): And then Disney World for Thanksgiving. Shea Kidd Brown (17:14): Not a bad place to spend… Kevin Dunn (17:14): Yeah. We’re, yeah, pretty happy place. Shea Kidd Brown (17:16): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (17:16): So excited for that. Shea Kidd Brown (17:17): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (17:18): But, you know, I’m just excited for my senior year, and I think we have a really good team this year, so just see how far we can go and- Shea Kidd Brown (17:22): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (17:22): … I have all the faith in our coaching staff and our fellow teammates to push us there, so I’m excited about it. Shea Kidd Brown (17:27): Well, whenever I get to come to practice, it’s always a good time. Kevin Dunn (17:28): Right. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (17:29): I feel extra short, though, I will have to say. (laughs) Kevin Dunn (17:31): Yep. Shea Kidd Brown (17:31): As a 5’2″. Kevin Dunn (17:31): Yeah, there’s less sprints with Dr. Shea Kidd Brown. Shea Kidd Brown (17:35): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (17:35): That’s, so we like when you come as well. Shea Kidd Brown (17:36): Oh, good to know. Kevin Dunn (17:37): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (17:37): So I’ll have to ask for some extra sessions this year. Kevin Dunn (17:41): Right, yeah, you should do that for sure. Shea Kidd Brown (17:41): So I know with basketball, Kev on the Couch. Kevin Dunn (17:44): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (17:45): That, when did that emerge? How did that come about? Kevin Dunn (17:48): Um, so Boston College game, every year, a lot of my friends come, you know, after boarding school, and then I, my fraternity, our class in my grade is 26 guys, and we have, like, nine guys from Boston, so- Shea Kidd Brown (17:57): Really? (laughs) Kevin Dunn (17:58): … I got them all tickets and they were just going nuts at the game. And my [inaudible: 18:01] my sophomore year, Peter, now works at Ohio State, but he was, like, “This, that was so cool.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:06): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (18:06): Like, “We should get you on Instagram more.” And I was like, “Hey, man, whatever you want.” You know, I’m not dying to be on Instagram. Shea Kidd Brown (18:09): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (18:10): But he w- “Interview Andrew Carr and ask him this question and then ask him a funny question and make up one after that.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:16): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (18:17): And I just got on the screen, I just blacked out. Shea Kidd Brown (18:20): Oh my gosh. Kevin Dunn (18:20): Don’t remember it at all. Shea Kidd Brown (18:20): Don’t remember, okay. Kevin Dunn (18:20): And I asked him, like, “Hey, was that great?” And he was like, “It was pretty good.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:22): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (18:23): And then he posted it, got a lot of views, and they just kept it going. And it’s really fun. You know, it’s just I ask my teammates funny questions, and I think a lot of times people who, especially not on campus who are fans, just see us as players. Shea Kidd Brown (18:33): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (18:34): But when you see the personality, it’s kinda more fun. Shea Kidd Brown (18:35): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (18:36): Like Hunter’s interview l- last year. Parker’s interview was really funny, and so a lot of those guys, Efton’s. So it’s just kinda cool to see those guys off the court. I think one thing that our athletics does that’s amazing is our media and our Instagram. Shea Kidd Brown (18:45): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (18:46): Our main guy’s named Joel Dahms. Like, he’s so good at his, his job, and he’s so funny and he just knows the team so well. But they work so hard. You know, those videos that they make take a lot of time to make- Shea Kidd Brown (18:55): Forever, yeah. Kevin Dunn (18:55): … and they just do it right after the game. Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Maybe 30 seconds that you see. Kevin Dunn (18:58): It’s so, they’re so impressive and- Shea Kidd Brown (18:59): Yeah. Well, I love it and, you know, maybe one day we’ll turn the tables. Kevin Dunn (19:02): (laughs) Oh yeah? Shea Kidd Brown (19:03): You, you do, you can do the podcast and interview me. Kevin Dunn (19:04): Sure. Shea Kidd Brown (19:05): I had my son do that, but I would love to not be prepared and answer questions that you have for me. Kevin Dunn (19:10): Y- well, I think we’d have a lot of fun with that, so maybe- Shea Kidd Brown (19:10): That would be a lot of fun. Kevin Dunn (19:10): … maybe in the future. Shea Kidd Brown (19:14): So we talked a little bit about what you’re looking forward to for basketball as you think about just your senior year. It’s a big year. What are things that are on your mind? And we won’t talk about a job. Kevin Dunn (19:24): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:25): But (laughs) ’cause I know that is too, but… Kevin Dunn (19:26): Well, it’s my first Pitsgiving in two years. Shea Kidd Brown (19:28): Oh. Kevin Dunn (19:30): That’s all I get to go to because of basketball, so I’m already, like, hungry thinking about that. Shea Kidd Brown (19:32): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (19:32): And then other than that, I’m just excited for all, like, the holidays. Like, not the holidays like Christmas, but, like, you know, Rolling the Quad- Shea Kidd Brown (19:38): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (19:38): And the football game or the first football game. Senior Night for basketball. Lovefeast, all the things I can’t do again after I graduate- Shea Kidd Brown (19:45): I know. Kevin Dunn (19:45): … I’m really excited to do for the last time. But also what I’m most excited for is just to get everyone here, like, I’m living on Long Drive, so- Shea Kidd Brown (19:51): Okay. Kevin Dunn (19:52): … all, a lot of the seniors live around that area, so that’ll be a lot of fun- Shea Kidd Brown (19:54): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (19:54): … to live on that and just, like, just see all my friends. You know, I’ve missed them all summer, so I’m excited to get everybody back together- Shea Kidd Brown (19:59): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (19:59): … and just make more relationships with my professors and stuff like that. Shea Kidd Brown (20:02): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (20:02): So there’s a lot of things I’m excited for. Shea Kidd Brown (20:04): When I think senior year, you know, it all of a sudden feels like, “Whoa.” (laughs) Kevin Dunn (20:07): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (20:07): Like, this time is coming to an end and you’re always gonna be connected to Wake Forest- Kevin Dunn (20:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:13): … but these distinct four years are very different. Pitsgiving and thinking about those things, like- Kevin Dunn (20:18): People ask me, like, what the best year of college is and I’m like, they’re all so different but all so great. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (20:22): So I’m excited to see senior year comparatively to all of them. Shea Kidd Brown (20:25): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (20:26): Like, my cousin is, I’m not gonna say her name because she’s a rising freshman, but she’s like, “Freshman year fun or is it-” Shea Kidd Brown (20:29): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (20:30): Like, you’re gonna have a great time. Shea Kidd Brown (20:31): Yes. Kevin Dunn (20:31): Like, don’t worry about it at all. Shea Kidd Brown (20:32): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (20:32): It’s gonna be a lot of fun. Shea Kidd Brown (20:32): Just savor it. Kevin Dunn (20:33): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (20:33): That’s, you know, we all try to convey how fast it goes by- Kevin Dunn (20:37): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:37): … and you never know until you’re actually doing it yourself. Kevin Dunn (20:39): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (20:39): But it seems like you’ve really taken advantage of all the amazing opportunities that have been in front of you. I do wanna ask you, because this is a, really the word that always comes to mind is noisy, like this is a noisy year. It’s a presidential election where, you know, you saw some of the- Kevin Dunn (20:56): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:56): … polarization as you were abroad. How are you thinking about navigating that as a student? Because it’s very clear that the world is kinda in two different places as we think about various issues, not just a presidential election. And two-parter, like, how are you thinking about that, and then what are ways that students can be thinking about that together in productive ways? Kevin Dunn (21:17): Right. Well, that’s a hard-hitting question right there. Shea Kidd Brown (21:19): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (21:19): I think one thing, you have to watch the Olympics. Our country’s so divided politically- Shea Kidd Brown (21:23): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (21:23): … but then you watch the Olympics and we’re all, you know, Team U.S.A. Shea Kidd Brown (21:26): U.S.A, yeah. Kevin Dunn (21:26): So I think kinda just remind everyone that whatever happens politically, we’re gonna be okay. Shea Kidd Brown (21:29): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (21:30): You know, we’ve been okay for a long time, and I think we’ll be, we’ll continue to be a strong country. One thing that people should do is just listen more. Shea Kidd Brown (21:36): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (21:37): I think that whatever side you are on politically on campus, you know, it’s a safe space. We all chose being Demon Deacons. Shea Kidd Brown (21:44): Right. Kevin Dunn (21:44): And, you know, if you got into Wake Forest, you probably got other schools you could have gone to, and you chose here for a reason. And I think part of that reason is when you walk around campus, you see all the people happy and wearing Wake Forest clothes, like your program you have. Shea Kidd Brown (21:53): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (21:53): Or if you’re wearing something else you can change it in. Shea Kidd Brown (21:55): (laughs) Oh, yeah. Kevin Dunn (21:56): Just, like, kinda a testament to, like, our culture. I can tell that on my tours, like, when you’re walking around, first thing I say is walk around and look at other students- Shea Kidd Brown (22:01): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (22:02): … who are walking around. Are they happy? Are they wearing Wake Forest clothes? And the resounding answer is always yes. Shea Kidd Brown (22:07): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (22:07): And whether it’s your freshman, sophomore, or junior, senior year, it’s a year that really matters for you. Obviously, politics matters, but just remind yourself that everyone here is Demon Deacon and everyone e- else here is super happy to be here. Shea Kidd Brown (22:16): Right. Kevin Dunn (22:16): So don’t, like, ruin everyone’s day. Shea Kidd Brown (22:17): (laughs) Don’t ruin anyone’s day. I- Kevin Dunn (22:18): Um, yeah, so just it’s definitely very important to talk, but also to not get on Instagram and say, you know, “I’m gonna unfollow anyone who votes for XYZ.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:26): Right. Kevin Dunn (22:26): Or just let everyone be. Shea Kidd Brown (22:28): Well, I think something you said in the beginning is listen more. Kevin Dunn (22:31): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:31): That is so critical. We all wanna be right (laughs) and we all wanna listen to be right and to win the debate, as opposed to maybe learning something new. Kevin Dunn (22:39): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:39): And that is hard. I think we’re wired as human to want to get our point across. But I think that’s really important for us to remember, is just to open, you know, maybe take a step back. No one has ever won an argument on social media. (laughs) Kevin Dunn (22:52): Right. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (22:53): You know, that’s just not the avenue. It’s, as we are, across the table talking to each other, asking questions. “Hey, tell me about this,” or, “You said this. What do you think about this?” Something I practice is trying to listen but also ask questions. Kevin Dunn (23:04): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (23:04): Asking more questions than giving answers. Kevin Dunn (23:06): I think one good thing about Wake, too, is, like, it’s a great space for that. Like, I don’t think it’s an echo chamber whatsoever. Shea Kidd Brown (23:10): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (23:11): It’s a lot of different opinions. We’re a diverse campus, but also our Face to Face program, our Call to Conversation program- Shea Kidd Brown (23:16): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (23:16): … is all these programs that we have on campus to, like, do that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:19): Right. Kevin Dunn (23:20): To listen and to learn. So make sure to be a Demon Deacon. Shea Kidd Brown (23:22): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (23:23): Listen to your, listen to your fellow classmates and, and professors and just understand, like you’re saying, and listen more. Shea Kidd Brown (23:27): Well, you’ve kinda talked about this already, but I’m gonna ask you maybe a, another deeper question. So a lot of your answers have embodied Pro Humanitate in my view, so when you talk about the camera crew, you elevated those people by name. When you talk about Hit the Bricks, you talk about the student experience and how all students, so what does Pro Humanitate mean to you? And then h- how do you try to live that out? Kevin Dunn (23:51): I think about it, just the definition, like for humanity. So just kind of doing, treating other people the way you wanna be treated. And for me, not, I gotta live it out in the, what I’m involved in, whether that be trying to be a better teammate. Shea Kidd Brown (24:01): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (24:01): You know, people who are younger, showing them not just stuff on the court. You know, I can’t really help everyone with their jump shot. Shea Kidd Brown (24:05): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (24:06): They’re probably better than me. But I can help them with, you know, “Hey, here’s where The Pit is. Here’s where the library is.” Shea Kidd Brown (24:10): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (24:10): Or, you know, “Are you interested in this? You should meet X person.” You know, so that’s kinda what I try to help with, is more off-the-court stuff for my teammates. Shea Kidd Brown (24:16): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (24:17): You know, because my teammates are coming from all across the world, not just… Some are transfers, some aren’t, but a lot of them are first year in college and- Shea Kidd Brown (24:23): Right. Kevin Dunn (24:23): … Marqus Marion last year was from Denmark. Shea Kidd Brown (24:24): Mm-hmm. Kevin Dunn (24:24): He’d never been to the United States before. So help him out for that. Matthew Marsh, he’s gone now. Shea Kidd Brown (24:29): Right. Kevin Dunn (24:29): But when he came here, like, “Come to my house and see [inaudible 00:24:31]” Shea Kidd Brown (24:31): Aw. Kevin Dunn (24:31): Stuff like that. You know, he’d never had it before. Shea Kidd Brown (24:33): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (24:33): So for that for basketball, and I think Hit the Bricks kinda says it for itself, just helping raise money for cancer. And then, you know, tour guide, honestly, I had a pretty bad tour guide when I toured Wake. Shea Kidd Brown (24:41): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (24:41): And my dad was like, “Oh my God, that guy was so awful.” Shea Kidd Brown (24:45): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (24:45): Like, I’m all, I was like, “I wa- still wanna go here, Dad, don’t worry about it.” And, uh, I was like, you know what? When a tour guide application landed, I was like- Shea Kidd Brown (24:50): Hmm. Kevin Dunn (24:50): … you know, maybe I can be someone’s good tour guide, not the bad one. So hopeful- Shea Kidd Brown (24:53): Yeah. So you think about that when you’re- Kevin Dunn (24:55): I’ve probably been the bad one maybe once or twice, but hopefully th- not. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (24:57): Well, I’ve run into you a few times, and I love it when that happens. I bet you’re one of the best. Kevin Dunn (25:05): I get a lot of happy birthdays from my friends trying to embarrass me when I give tours. Shea Kidd Brown (25:05): (laughs) Kevin Dunn (25:05): But it’s been a lot of fun. Shea Kidd Brown (25:06): You have a lot of birthdays, I bet. Kevin Dunn (25:06): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (25:07): (laughs) Well, that’s good. Pro Humanitate is something that’s so distinct to Wake Forest, and I think it makes our campus really special, and it attracts really great people, like you. Kevin Dunn (25:15): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (25:15): So I’m really grateful that we’ve had this opportunity to connect. Anything you wanna close with? Maybe you wanna flip a question and ask me? Kevin Dunn (25:24): Uh, what are you most excited for for this year? Shea Kidd Brown (25:26): Oh, um- Kevin Dunn (25:27): Is this your fourth year as well? Shea Kidd Brown (25:27): It’s my third fall. Kevin Dunn (25:29): Third fall, okay. Shea Kidd Brown (25:30): Yeah. So I’ve been here two and a half years. Kevin Dunn (25:31): Your junior year. Shea Kidd Brown (25:32): Yeah. Kevin Dunn (25:32): Okay, great. Shea Kidd Brown (25:32): I am, exactly. You’re a year ahead of me. I think what I’m looking forward to is some of the conversation we got into. Some may view the fall as kind of dread or, you know, what’s going to happen given the polarization in our country, but I’m in a unique position to try to bring people together, and that doesn’t mean to bring them together to agree, but bring them together to listen, to ask questions, lean into curiosity, and just looking forward to what that’s going to look like. I think at Wake Forest, we have the ability to do it different than other places, so I’m excited about that. (26:02): I am, uh, as you know, a very big fan of athletics, so I’m looking forward to football season and basketball season and soccer and cross country, many of the fall sports as we gear up for that. And each year, we have a chance in higher ed to bring a whole new group of people in. Kevin Dunn (26:20): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:20): Very different from any other community. And so thinking about our first years and, you know, this time of year especially as they’re getting settled into their new home, that’s always a lot of fun. So, um- Kevin Dunn (26:31): Well, I think your show, like, bringing on students and now your Instagram presence and how much you work with students just kinda shows, like, for humanity, you know, for Wake Forest. So I think, uh, I’m so grateful that we have you here at Wake. Shea Kidd Brown (26:40): Well, thank you. Kevin Dunn (26:40): And, uh, made it such a great place. Shea Kidd Brown (26:40): Well- Kevin Dunn (26:41): Even better than I thought it could be. Shea Kidd Brown (26:42): Aw. Kevin Dunn (26:43): Thank so much for having me- Shea Kidd Brown (26:44): Well, thank you. Kevin Dunn (26:45): … and thank you for all the work you put in every single day for us Demon Deacons. Shea Kidd Brown (26:48): Thank you, Kevin. Kevin Dunn (26:49): Of course. Shea Kidd Brown (26:49): Go Deacs. Kevin Dunn (26:50): Go Deacs. Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (26:51): Such a good conversation with Kevin. He is a fast talker, so I hope you caught all the tidbits of wisdom that he shared. From overcoming what felt like an obstacle at the time to elevating and amplifying those around him to listening more and talking less, all of these lessons can be applied to our daily life. So thank you for listening, and thank you, Kevin, for sharing all of your wisdom. (27:14): I hope you all will consider your stories, their uniqueness, and the surprising connections we can all make to our shared humanity. That’s actually what this is all about. I “Kidd” you not. You have something to contribute to the world, and I want you to think about that. And until next time, keep leaning into that hard work and the heart work of life. MaryAnna Bailey (27:36): This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the university’s Campus Life team. (27:42): For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not! MUSIC (27:53): (music)

Episode 17: Season 1 Finale

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In this episode, Dr. Shea looks back at the year that was. You’ll hear about some of Dr. Shea’s key takeaways from the episodes and guests we’ve had so far. She also talks about some of her favorite moments from interviews, what makes this such a special project for her, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:05):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and it is our season one finale episode, believe it or not. So we have been talking through and thinking through what we have learned, and I say we because it’s a team that has created this podcast over the last year, and today is really just about wrapping up our episodes and looking forward to the future. So far, we have recorded 17 episodes, including this one, and we are so appreciative of everyone who has listened in. And to remind you, our guests have included Dr. Jose Villalba, who’s our chief diversity officer, Dave Clawson, who serves as head football coach. There have been some reflection episodes sprinkled in. We’ve also had Dean Jackie Krasas, who serves as the Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences in the graduate school. We’ve had Heidi Robinson, who was one of our Associate Vice Presidents who supports our students’ career and personal development.

(01:05):

We’ve had Jackson Butler, who is one of our seniors. He’s also our Student Body President. Our Chief of Police, Regina Lawson. Senior Austin Terrain. We’ve had head basketball coach Steve Forbes and President Susan Wente, and we’ve had an episode with me that featured my son, Jack Wilson. We’ve also heard from Vir Gupta, who is our producer, but we also got to hear his story. We’ve heard from everybody’s favorite, Sonny Davis, and the class of 2024, Cate Pitterle, Badr Merdassi, Sydney Smith and Sean Brady. Whoa, that was a mouthful. I’m just taking a moment right now, because there are so many people that we’ve been able to hear their stories and elevate how important our shared humanity is through lots of different perspectives and lenses and world views. So I’m so, so, so grateful for everyone who has been a part of this.

(02:02):

And speaking of gratitude, I mentioned at the beginning, it is a we thing. So there’s lots of gratitude as it relates to the team who is supporting the podcast. So first and foremost, Vir Gupta. You have heard me talk about how this podcast came to be, and it was really about a student reflecting back to me that I could do this. And so I thank Vir for that initial nudge, but also for producing the podcast. He has carefully edited and helped with sound balance and all of the various things that go into the podcast. So, thank you, Vir. I know you have a very, very busy schedule, so I really appreciate you.

(02:41):

Gretchen Castelloe, who serves as the Campus Life Fellow at Wake Forest University, and Gretchen has assisted with lots of different logistics, from scheduling to helping with preparation, and to just keeping me on track, which can be hard to do. So, much appreciation to Gretchen. Also, I want to thank Abigail Brumfield and Debbie Mason, who serve as wonderful colleagues within the Division of Campus Life, and they also assist with a lot of the administrative logistical aspects of the podcast. Paul Whitener and the WakerSpace. Each time I get to go into the recording studio, Paul greets me with a warm smile, and just being able to have a facility on campus where students and faculty and staff can work on their craft, so no matter what that is. In my case, a podcast. So many, many thanks to Paul and the WakerSpace team.

(03:36):

Certainly our student assistants and students in general. So I appreciate when I can bounce an idea off and a student says, “Hey, we should do this,” or, “Have you thought about this,” or, “What about Ms. Sonny in the Pit?” So I always, always appreciate student feedback and the work of our student assistants in keeping this moving forward. And finally, I want to thank you, our listeners. So without you, you know, we just are sitting in a booth recording and don’t necessarily have anyone who’s listening. So thank you to our listeners, and all of our guests who have been a part of birthing this new project.

(04:12):

So in this last episode, it will be short, but I really just want to express how appreciate I’ve been. Uh, I’ve learned so much from each guest. And as I play things back, admittedly I am not a fan of hearing my own voice, but I think we all share that awkwardness and sort of cringey moments when we hear ourselves, but that’s not what this is about. It’s about the things that I’ve learned. So some of the things I’ve learned is, I talked about in a recap episode last year, I generally begin each podcast with this question about home and origin story. So through that, of course there are some themes and commonalities. And, uh, one of those things is that home is really more than a stationary place. So when I say, “Where is home for you,” I think most guests would say what that place is. In my case, Hattiesburg, Mississippi, but you almost immediately hear people describing what that is and why it’s home. So it’s not just a stationary place, but it’s a feeling.

(05:13):

I remember Heidi Robinson, one of our early episodes, said, “Home is a place where you can take your shoes off.” And I think that’s such a good imagery of just a sense of comfort that comes from home. I love asking that question of our students. When I say, “Where’s home for you,” they will often recount where they live on campus, which I think is the ultimate compliment, that home, even after a few months, particularly for our first years, is their residence hall. You know, we’ll continue to start our podcast, more than likely, with that question, because I think it just is a great place to launch a conversation.

(05:49):

Another theme that many people talked about is this fact that we need people. So there’s no one that I have sat down with who has said, “I got here on my own and I’m enjoying this life of solitude.” (laughs) Um, everyone talks about the importance of mentoring and community and building friendships and relationships and being able to navigate hard things in community with other people, and being able to celebrate successes in community with other people. So that’s a commonality that I continue to see, and it’s just important. At Wake Forest, we talk about pro humanitate, and that’s our motto. And it’s a Latin phrase meaning, “For humanity.” And so it is this really interesting concept. And I think of course we all have different ways of understanding what community means, but I’ve seen that throughout all of the conversations that I’ve had, that we truly need people, and we’ll continue to build on that in our future episodes.

(06:50):

We also have unique talents and strengths. And, you know, I think back to when I interviewed Coach Forbes versus President Wente versus our students, and how each person has these unique talents, whether it’s motivation or being able to understand complex ideas as it relates to the sciences or taking a life experience and making that their own and launching that into academic pursuits. So I think we all do. And as you’re listening, you know, it’s not just the guests that I talk to that have talents and strengths. We all do. So, you know, I want you to think about what are those things you’re naturally good at? What are those things, when you wake up in the morning, that just become, they’re really organic and they’re just really easy for you? We all have those things. So how do we think about refining that?

(07:39):

And also, how do we think about that in our lives? Just a life of positivity and thinking about what’s going right in our lives. And certainly, we can’t ignore the things that are not going so right, but it creates a different way of thinking and knowing and understanding the world. So encourage you to think about that.

(07:59):

Another theme that has emerged is that we all want to belong. So we all have this deep desire to feel connected. I remember as I interviewed Sonny Davis, she said, “You don’t have to fit in. You’re already in.” And that’s something I need to embroider on a pillow or put on a canvas or something, because I think that’s such a great way to think about this notion of belonging. Maya Angelou, who taught here at Wake Forest for many, many years, has a quotation that is, “The ache for home lives inside of us, the place that we can go as we are and not be questioned.” And I’m paraphrasing a little bit, but, and we all have that ache for connection and belonging and home. And I love her quote particularly because she says, “Place where we can go as we are.” So unapologetically who we are, that’s really the notion of belonging.

(08:56):

Many of you know if you listen to me very long, that’s a passionate area for me, is this world is thirsty for connection, and sometimes it manifests in just the opposite. But I think we are all interested in that. So that’s an interesting theme that has come out. You know, I continue to learn. There’s certainly a lot of reflective opportunities, but I’ve just so enjoyed sitting across a table with someone else, not checking my phone, not checking my email, and the same goes for the guest, but just being locked in. So even if you say, “I’m not ready to host a podcast,” I would encourage you to think about who are those people you really want to connect with, and find some time to maybe go tech-free and connect deeply around story, because we all have one.

(09:43):

As we prepare for a little bit of a break, when you work in higher education, there are these natural seasons. So I live my life in academic semesters. So when I talk to my friends outside of higher ed, I’ll say, “Well, in May, you know, there’ll be a natural break,” and we don’t, as an administrator, we work year-round, but the season makes it a little bit quieter on campus. And so that creates a little bit of a break for the podcast. So as we prepare for this break and plan out the academic year, we’ll be thinking about what’s next on the podcast. So we’ll begin planning for next year. And as I get feedback from those around me, I imagine you’ll hear from more students, more campus celebrities, and maybe JW will even come back, my son.

(10:29):

I just want to end as I began, by thanking you. Thank you for being a part of this community that strives to lead with hard work and heart work. And I encourage you, whatever you do in life, whether you work in higher education or maybe you don’t, live your life in semesters, I encourage you to take a few moments to reflect and renew. Think about, what are you grateful for? What lessons is life teaching you right now in this moment? What are you looking forward to? All of those questions are important. And in this life that tends to just continue to be busy and noisy, we all need these moments to sit still with our thoughts. So I encourage you to do that.

(11:10):

And just know that you matter, that we all have an amazing stories to share. I Kid You Not. So until next time, until the beginning of season two, I encourage you to keep leaning into that hard work and heart work. And we’ll be back in the fall. Thank you again for listening.

MaryAnna Bailey (11:29):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta, in association with the university’s campus life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kid You Not.

Episode 16: Farewell to the Forest-Pt. 2

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Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and I’m back with these four Wake Forest seniors from the class of 2024. As we approach the end of the year, and as some of our students are about to experience a huge milestone, commencement, I thought it would be a good opportunity to look back on the last few years, how we got here, obstacles we’ve overcome, and successes we have celebrated. In the last episode of Kidd You Not, seniors Cate Pitterle, Sydney Smith, Badr Merdassi, and Sean Brady discussed their transition to college for the Fall 2020 semester, during the height of the global pandemic. We discussed feelings of uncertainty and isolation, but we also talked about the joy of finding community through residence halls and student organizations.

(00:54):

We ended our last conversation by turning the corner from the bleak first few semesters during COVID to asking when Wake Forest began to feel like home. Today, we’re gonna jump right back into our conversation, and I’m so excited to hear what they have to say. In sort of keeping along that thread of home, um, who are the people, the resources, the offices that really helped? Um. Badr described it as safe and comfort. Are there particular personalities, faculty that you feel like really helped in that way?

Cate Pitterle (01:32):

So many.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:33):

(laughs).

Cate Pitterle (01:34):

Um. I love this question, because I love to brag about all of the mentors and role models here.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:38):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (01:39):

Obviously, working at Campus Life for the last two years with you, Dr. Shea, and with Debbie and Abigail, and now Gretchen, has been really, really wonderful and that’s become like a little space for me where I feel very safe.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:49):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (01:49):

But there have been other offices too, the scholar’s office with Jackie Sheridan-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:53):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (01:53):

… and Acacia, some of my favorite people on the planet, I love them so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:57):

(laughs).

Cate Pitterle (01:57):

Leadership and Character has been really wonderful.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:58):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (01:59):

Ann Phelps, Michael Lamb. Jazz, now, who is so cool.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:02):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (02:03):

There’s just a lot of really, really cool people. Definitely professors as well. Um. She’s gone now, she was a visiting assistant professor, my first two, maybe three years, Carolyn Coberly in the Politics Department. I don’t know if anybody’s had her classes, but I took three classes with her.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:17):

Wow.

Cate Pitterle (02:17):

Also, Dr. Hallier, I took three classes with.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

Wow.

Cate Pitterle (02:19):

I became known for this, where I would take-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

(laughs) three classes.

Cate Pitterle (02:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:23):

Frequent flyer.

Cate Pitterle (02:24):

Yeah. I was, literally, I would take like two or three classes with the same professor because I would find a professor that I would like, and I would just like, “All right, what are you teaching next semester? How can I fit it into my schedule?” Actually, the Russian Department only has two professors, so very similar experience as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:39):

(Laughs). Nice.

Cate Pitterle (02:39):

So I’ve gotten to know a lot of professors very well, and that’s just been something I think that I’ve sought too. Leadership and Character has this idea too of a moral exemplar, which is essentially just a really fancy way of saying role model.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

Oh. A moral exemplar.

Cate Pitterle (02:52):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Wow.

Cate Pitterle (02:53):

It’s a really good phrase. Use it at parties, totally.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (02:57):

Totally a point of conversation, because it’s allowed me to view my role models through the light of having a quality or a virtue, or a value that I really want to emulate. So for me, like my parents, for instance, are moral exemplars for me in different ways.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:12):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (03:12):

But also the people who I’ve met at Wake are moral exemplars in different ways. So people who I think are really passionate or really compassionate, people who are really kind, people who are really patient. Just people who have qualities that, like, I seek to cultivate in myself. And I’ve been able to find a lot of that at Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:28):

I have the benefit of seeing you all, and your posture, your body language, all shifted when I asked that question. And so I can’t wait to hear the other responses.

Badr Merdassi (03:37):

The list is too long at this … and I’m so grateful to be able to say this.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:42):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (03:42):

You know, it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:42):

That’s a gift.

Badr Merdassi (03:43):

It’s a, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (03:44):

And we shouldn’t take it for granted because we’re able to do this just because Wake Forest allows us to be in such a small community that can actually call itself a community. Because we do genuinely develop bonds that I think transcend just our four years here.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (04:00):

And I wouldn’t make it where I am today without the people I was able to know. And the first two weeks, first name that popped into my head is Maria Henson.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Mm.

Badr Merdassi (04:10):

Extraordinary person, who I met in the parking garage of my first-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:16):

(Laughs)

Badr Merdassi (04:17):

No, it’s, it’s true. It’s parking garage of my first quarantine. She came with, just to say hi to students she never met before, just to say hi and just offer some strong word of support. And from there, she’s become a mentor of mine. Dr. Susan Fahrbach, who was my FYS, and lower division advisor. I had her fall semester freshman year, and my only small time, in a sense of community at Wake Forest was her office hour on Monday, through Zoom, 6:00 PM Tunisia time. Thanks to her, I made it through that semester, truly-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:52):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (04:52):

And she knows that. And across those years, I can say that Dr. V is one of those role models for me. So many others I’ve been able to just develop relationships with. And you as well, Dr. Shea, I’m happy to count you in there. And I’m very grateful for that.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:08):

Thank you. And I love the name drops because I think our faculty, staff, administrators do this because they love it, and don’t ever know, like what was the moment in the parking lot, you know, or it was a moment in time often that is etched in your memory forever, and for them, they have many moments, and so even thinking about how critical that period was for you, when you were so disconnected from everything that’s happening in Winston-Salem, and even the impact of time.

(05:37):

I think about that now for our international students. I was talking to a student a couple weeks ago who will be on a different podcast, it’s like a crossover. But Vir Gupta, who you all know, but home is India for him, so hearing him talk about even, we only have like this little window of time that I can connect back to my family, and you only have this little window of time that you could connect with faculty.

Badr Merdassi (05:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:58):

Or you were really tired and trying to figure out how to navigate.

Badr Merdassi (06:01):

No. That’s, that’s totally it.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:01):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (06:02):

I think what you said earlier, before we kind of began, was just the posture change and like the-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:06):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (06:07):

You know, everyone’s face, I think accurately reflects the question as the sense of home that Wake Forest provides, because that’s like one of my favorite questions because to answer it defines what Wake Forest is to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:16):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (06:17):

Some of the departments I’m, you know, eternally grateful for because they did shape my time at Wake Forest, they made me realize this is home, is certainly Student Engagement especially, our lovely friends in S.O. Office-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:29):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (06:29):

As well as the, uh, Student Organizations Office. And outside of that, you know, my awesome friends in Pi Kapp and AKPsi certainly shaped my experience at Wake. I think the one that I always, like, think about a little bit now is you’re never like abandoned at Wake in that sense.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:42):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (06:42):

Where, you know, two of the professors that stick out the most to me were ones that I had in my sophomore Fall, and one that I have right now, which I think is unique in that they stand out both at the beginning of my real Wake Forest time-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

Right.

Sean Brady (06:55):

And at the end of my time, which is, you know, Professor Cianci, from the Accounting Faculty, and uh, Professor, uh, Harris-Perry from the Politics Department, and both for kind of unique reasons, which is, you know, Professor Cianci showed me kind of like how a professor tries to kind of find like the light or the uniqueness in each student, and kind of let them find that for themselves in the subject, right? I felt like the professor believed me, her happiness was driven by our success in the classroom, and that was Wake Forest to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

Mm.

Sean Brady (07:21):

And now with Professor Harris-Perry this semester, like someone who comes into a classroom and understands it’s, you know, her duty to kind of like captivate us all, right? Like that it’s more than just we’re gonna listen to her present on the subject matter that we’re learning about that day, but that it’s a two-way discussion.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:37):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (07:37):

It’s a two-way conversation. And you know, for that, very grateful. Those are the people, especially some of my closest friends right now, that have defined Wake Forest for me.

Sydney Smith (07:45):

Yeah. When we talk about Wake Forest being home, people say, “Home is where the heart is.” If you’re from the South, people make jokes like, “Home is where your stomach is, and where the good food is.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:51):

(Laughs)

Sydney Smith (07:52):

So I’ll definitely talk about some of the staff members on campus who honestly help us eat, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (07:59):

Mm.

Sydney Smith (08:00):

So you guys know Ms. Sonny in the pit.

Sean Brady (08:01):

Oh, yeah.

Sydney Smith (08:01):

Everyone knows Ms. Sonny in the pen. So Ms. Sonny, for those of you who don’t know, all the listeners, right? So she’ll be sort of at the main checkpoint and when you’re swiping at the main dining hall, the pen. So you know, you swipe your Deacon One card, and whether it’s the morning or the afternoon, she always has the sweetest thing to say to you. When I was-

Sean Brady (08:15):

Morning, sweetheart.

Sydney Smith (08:15):

Yes. “Good morning, sweetheart. Good morning, baby.” She’s so sweet. I think it’s really nice that even, like as we’ve progressed through COVID, which it was so nice to have someone, when you’re going to get as close of a equivalent to a home-cooked meal as you can have when you’re away from home, someone who’s really sweet when you’re walking in and who makes that experience a little bit better.

(08:32):

So Ms. Sonny, all of the individuals who work in the pit, honestly. Miss Jessica. You guys might not know her, but she’s the head of catering at Wake Forest. All of the individuals who are behind the scenes making, we’ll say the eateries, happen. They go out of their way, or in my opinion, they’ve gone out of their way during my time at Wake to not only say kind things and acknowledge me kindly when I’d like to eat, but asking me how my day is. The same sort of energy that I hope to give to them and be like, “How are you?” And if they tell me on a Monday about their cousin, I’ll be like, on Tuesday, “How’s your cousin?” They’ll ask me about my classes, about my tests and everything, and that, in my opinion, was so unique to me. I expected that a lot from my professors, and I got that, but to go away from the academic setting of Wake Forest and still have those meaningful conversations was really nice. It made it feel like home even more.

(09:13):

And I’ll also say that when I toured at Wake Forest, my tour guide, Danny Meyers, he sat us down, the tour group, in a classroom. He was talking to us about how, you know, Wake Forest is great, all the typical things a tour guide will say, and then he said, or he reminisced on the time that he and some of his classmates were invited by a professor to the professor’s house for dinner. And my mom, she was like, “You need to be one of those smart kids who gets invited over to your professor’s house for dinner.” I was like, “I don’t know how to go about that. I feel like he’s just saying that to say it.”

(09:39):

When I chose Wake, this goes even more into it being like home, Leigh Meyers, who works in the Benson University Center, my mom somehow became friends with Danny and now is friends with Ms. Leigh, and Leigh Meyers, um, she talked to me about it, she was like, “Oh, you know, have you gone to anyone’s house for dinner yet?” I have gone to people’s house for dinner.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:56):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (09:56):

My professors will invite classes over and everything. Corey Walker, who I think he was just named like the new Dean of the Divinity School or something.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:02):

Right.

Sydney Smith (10:02):

He was over at the Journalism Department down there, and he was just, you know, speaking all sorts of knowledge to us. So back to my core beginning-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:09):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (10:09):

It’s like home is where the heart is. Home, I guess really is where the food is because-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:13):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (10:13):

Everyone who I’ve had a meal with, who has helped me, serve a meal, like they’re just always so kind and it’s made my experience so good.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:18):

Yeah. I very much connect with that, and I think about, as you were all talking about home, home really is routine and familiarity.

Sydney Smith (10:27):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

And safety, and so many people have been a part of that happen for you, even in a dark time, dark period, and that’s what’s been pervasive, I think, about the Wake Forest culture, has been tested in the most obvious ways, through global pandemic, and yet that light still shines through. And as I mentioned, you know, I plopped in your second year, when we, we were still masked, if y’all even remember your spring of your sophomore year-

Sydney Smith (10:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

… until spring break, we were masked and couldn’t have food with events, or events with food. So I was in that with you for at least a time, but I love hearing pervasiveness, and I love the Sonny shout-out.

Sydney Smith (11:08):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:08):

And, um, by the time this episode drops, we will have already dropped an episode with Ms. Sonny.

Sydney Smith (11:14):

Oh.

Cate Pitterle (11:17):

Oh, that’s so exciting.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:17):

Yeah. Yeah. So-

Cate Pitterle (11:17):

And she deserves that.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

She’s amazing and she loves our students. And I think having that commitment from everyone who’s here, they’re getting up thinking about you, it’s really special and it’s even more special to hear you reflect that back. So we rounded the corner in various ways, some ways, like Cate said, not a specific time and place, but curious, what are you most proud of as you think about this whole synthesis, at this point, of a college experience.

Sean Brady (11:43):

Some of the things I’m most proud of is, at the end of the day, I think similar to kind of what you alluded to, a phrase that I think we will all recognize and kind of live with for the rest of it, is kind of the, “Our way forward,” mindset.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (11:54):

Right? That was Wake’s kind of early on, kind of way of addressing our way, which I think is unique in the sense of it’s not a, you know, we need to restart, and it’s not that we need to like change permanently, but it’s how we’re going to move forward. And I think that mindset allowed for me to internalize it on my way forward.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:09):

Mm.

Sean Brady (12:09):

Recognizing like COVID is not going to be the only obstacle or the only kind of life-altering moment in all of our lives, but especially our own. That opportunity freshman year really showed me, you know, the importance in a, “My way forward,” thought process, where things are not always going to go perfectly, but being able to kind of pivot, pick up, change direction, and adapt, is key to being successful in just all that you do. And I think about all the times where I would ask for more hours in the day-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:36):

Mm.

Sean Brady (12:36):

Because of how much was going on, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (12:38):

Right, yeah.

Sean Brady (12:39):

That you’re going to bed at three, four in the morning, back up at 7:00 AM. Those days were tough because there’s so much to fit in a day, and I would probably be a little over-extended at times with commitments and opportunities, leadership stuff. But that made Wake Forest not only worth it, but what I’ll remember forever.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (12:54):

And I think that’s what I’m proud of, is the idea that I think it could’ve been easy for a lot of us just to say like, “I’m gonna just kind of put my head down and four years will go by-“

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Right.

Sean Brady (13:02):

“And I can forget all about that,” but I think this campus allowed for us all to be like, “Hey, we might only have three years, but we’re gonna make it feel like an entire lifetime in that time.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:11):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (13:11):

I totally agree with that. I developed this mindset of having to take advantage to everything that I’m possibly given. I wanted to do every opportunity, I wanted to go to every event. I started using Google Calendar my sophomore year-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:23):

Oh, there you go.

Cate Pitterle (13:23):

And it was full. And I will say, like actually it’s really interesting, all of my friends are like that too, like the people who I know who are seniors, they all are go-getters, they want to take advantage of everything, and I think when you’ve had a lot of things stripped away, with freshman year, when you really didn’t have any opportunities in a lot of the sense of the word, you want to go do as much as possible when you finally have the opportunity. I actually started making bucket lists, so when I was abroad, I had my London bucket list with everything I wanted to do in Lon- … Oh, and I also have a senior year bucket list. Like I just have, like all these things.

Sean Brady (13:56):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (13:56):

I think it really just gave me this mindset of there is only a limited amount of time that you have at Wake, that you have in life, just in general, if there are things you want to do, you might not get the opportunity to do them again.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:06):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (14:06):

What COVID really taught me is, for instance, like my senior year of high school, there was a sense that … we went in trimesters. We were super weird, we went in trimesters.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:13):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (14:13):

The third trimester was the one where you’re supposed to have fun. What was the date? Like March 11th or March 13th.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:18):

March 13th.

Sean Brady (14:19):

Sounds about, yeah.

Cate Pitterle (14:19):

So it was, I think it was the 11th for us, and then I remember everything everybody else on the 13th, because I remember that was like, it was like Friday the 13th.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:25):

Eh.

Cate Pitterle (14:25):

Yeah. Oh my gosh, it was Friday the 13th. Yeah, but I remember like that date, we were on our break and we were supposed to go back to school for the third trimester, and all I remember thinking was, “Why didn’t we start doing the fun stuff more?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (14:37):

Because it all got cut off and we just had kind of spent the previous two trimesters applying for colleges-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:42):

Right.

Cate Pitterle (14:42):

Kind of putting our heads down, doing a lot of work. However-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:45):

But there was an assumption that you would get to do that.

Cate Pitterle (14:47):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:47):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (14:47):

There was an assumption that once that third trimester came, senioritis would be allowed to kick in, and that was when we would spend more time with our friends and get to do all those senior traditions.

Badr Merdassi (14:55):

It’s kicking.

Cate Pitterle (14:56):

It is kicking in right now. Yeah.

Sean Brady (14:57):

Hard. Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (14:59):

But there was this sense, like it was guaranteed. What has really happened to me, and probably to a lot of you guys as well, we no longer have the sense that things are guaranteed.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

Mm.

Cate Pitterle (15:07):

For me, I just spend as much of my time as possible trying to create a balance of, obviously working really hard, but also spending time with my friends and going to like a baseball game or a basketball game, or a football game, like it’s something fun like that. Or taking time to explore Winston-Salem, go to coffee shops.

Sydney Smith (15:22):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (15:22):

I love going to coffee shops.

Sean Brady (15:24):

(Laughs)

Sydney Smith (15:24):

You and me both, girl.

Cate Pitterle (15:24):

Oh, yeah.

Sean Brady (15:24):

You picked a good spot for it.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:26):

We talked about your fancy coffee yesterday, and how there was a certain look when I told Cate I use K-cups and she was like, “Oh.”

Cate Pitterle (15:33):

Oh, yeah.

Sydney Smith (15:33):

What?

Cate Pitterle (15:33):

You have to use espresso.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:33):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (15:36):

My roommate got an espresso machine and changed my life. Anyway, we’re going off of … I’m really proud of how I’ve been able to take advantage of things, so …

Shea Kidd Brown (15:43):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (15:44):

I like that. Something that has come to me. This is definitely some quote on Pinterest or something, but I’ve been saying it a lot recently, but basically when someone else gets something good for them, so they receive a blessing, if you will, that doesn’t mean that’s something taken away from you. And I think that, especially being the senior class and seeing like this freshman class, like your sister, Sean, it’s like they’re having the time of their life right now.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (16:04):

Even last year’s freshman, like they were really getting into it and they were enjoying what is supposed to be that next stage of life. We talked about, you know, struggling with jealousy, or just being a little envious about that, and I mean, I did too. And so now, as I’m graduating, or about to graduate Wake Forest, I think I’m really proud not only taking that lesson from COVID times and reckoning with how this year freshman are having all the fun things and I didn’t have them, but also, I mean, you guys are all seniors, you guys go on LinkedIn, my gosh.

Sean Brady (16:31):

(Laughs)

Sydney Smith (16:31):

I’m sure you guys have some amazing opportunities lined up, and I’m sure that, knock on wood, I’ll have some soon as well, but you scroll through LinkedIn, and you see all these seniors not just at Wake, but at other surrounding universities talking about this position and that position, and all the good things that are coming their way, and you’re so happy for them, for your friends and your family, but if you aren’t there just yet, you’re like, “Oh my gosh. Why not me?”

(16:50):

But recently, couple months ago, I was starting to realize, just because something good happens to someone else, that doesn’t mean that’s something taken away from me.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:56):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (16:56):

And I think that is something that I’m definitely going into this, hopefully without COVID, I’m going to this next stage of life, into my twenties and into my younger professional career, realizing that wherever I end up, if someone gets the promotion first, that’s not a jab at me, it’s just because something else is coming-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:11):

Your way.

Sydney Smith (17:11):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (17:11):

That’s such a great way to think about things.

Cate Pitterle (17:13):

It really is.

Sean Brady (17:13):

I like that a lot.

Sydney Smith (17:14):

Thank you.

Badr Merdassi (17:15):

I’d say the thing I learned at Wake, that the most precious thing you could give someone is your time. I really go back on how I’m here today because people gave me their time, and just met with me. I mean, how many universities can a student actually meet with the President or like with other senior administrators? And that’s just, you know, what I remember sophomore year, quad laps, right there with Rogan Kersch was the provost and-

Sydney Smith (17:42):

Quad laps, I love it.

Badr Merdassi (17:43):

Um, and we were just having coffee. And you can imagine how busy a Provost of Wake Forest can be, and taught me that, in the future, I have to give back the most precious thing, which is my time, to other people and hear their story genuinely, without looking at them and thinking, “Okay, what’s next?”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:03):

Right.

Badr Merdassi (18:03):

Just be in the moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Being present.

Sydney Smith (18:05):

Uh huh.

Badr Merdassi (18:06):

And be present, and genuinely hear what they have to say. And I’m meeting right now with alums, and extremely successful alum said to me, “I’m here thanks to other people who paved the way for me, and I want to give back.” And yeah, that just resonated with me a lot, because this happened like a month ago. And I’d say that’s my biggest takeaway from Wake; give your time to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:27):

Well, all of you, I mean, what you’ve shared, question was what you’re proud of, and I think a lot of seniors might be talking about titles and jobs, and next steps, and what you’ve really talked about is learning. And I think that’s so indicative of what we do here, you know?

Sydney Smith (18:43):

(Laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:44):

That we, you have a great time and you meet people, and you become a better person. And as we’re kind of on that same thread, you have the clarity of the rear view at this point, so you are inching toward commencement and those next steps. So as you think about your first year selves or the students who are coming after you, what advice would you give them?

Badr Merdassi (19:07):

Get yourself out there. That would be the most important thing at Wake. We all say that Wake is about people, you have to get yourself out there to meet those people. The earlier, the better. If you just keep that in mind, if you get yourself out there, good things will come to you. Just be genuine in every action you take, and even if sometimes it’s wrong, well it was a genuine action and you’ll think through it.

Sean Brady (19:33):

Kind of a two-parter, but you are your own person, your own unique person, like you can only let someone tell you, you know, who to be. And at a place like Wake Forest, to do Wake Forest successfully, you have to be okay with being your own person, right? I think a lot of people want to show up and, you know, they kind of have to find that initial pod of people, and that pod of people can potentially have you, in your senior year, being like, “Why did I choose that major? Why did I choose, you know, this, that I’m involved with? Why am I doing that?”

(19:58):

And I think recognizing that you are your own person and there’s value to that, and that’s the best way to give back to the Wake Forest campus is bringing your unique self to it, and everything that you have, that’s the best way to not only give back, but you’ll find your people that way, you’ll find your major that way, you’ll find your interest that way. And I think it’s very easy for freshmen, and just about anyone in any situation, to feel a need to kind of connect to a group, whether that’s really for them or not in the long run.

(20:24):

I think being open-minded and realizing that like, at a place like Wake Forest, you can just be yourself and it’ll work out, is the greatest thing. For me, that might’ve taken me til my junior year, but I’m grateful for it.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:34):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (20:34):

But similar to what being said earlier, it’s like give it the time. You know, appreciate what you can bring to the campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:40):

Mm-hmm. Give it the time, like we all want to know, can we just fast-forward to the end? Like this is going to be okay and it’s where that, we come through that with way more awareness and clarity.

Cate Pitterle (20:51):

This is such a funny question because during that same mentorship meeting that I mentioned earlier, my genuine, genuine advice to two first-year students was to open a high yield savings account.

Sean Brady (21:01):

(Laughs)

Sydney Smith (21:01):

Yes. That part. That part. Please.

Cate Pitterle (21:02):

And that was what I was thinking about at the time, was how I needed to open a high yield savings account, and I wished I’d done it earlier. And long story short, that was my advice and they gave me two very blank stares.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:14):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (21:14):

Um. And I think that one thing I’ve learned at Wake that is advice that I do regularly give younger students who ask, is to do the things that you’re passionate about, and do the things that are meaningful to you. It’s not always going to be possible to take a non-profit job, doing something that you’re really, really passionate about, making no money. Like there’s logistical and logical elements too, but do the things, even if it’s just a hobby that you find meaning in, that you find joy in, that you feel like, if you contribute your time, and in some sense, your life to it, that brings you a sense of personal fulfillment, and I think that it’s so easy to get caught up in the peer pressure and the need to look impressive to other people.

(21:57):

One thing that I’ve definitely noticed is, as you get older, it’s a lot easier to kind of grow out of that mindset and start to realize that the things that matter to you personally are what really matters, and that the need to … This is a term that is rarely used now, but I think it’s still pretty relevant to our culture here, is Wake Face.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (22:14):

The need to put on this kind of mask, for lack of a better word.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:17):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (22:18):

Like Wake Face is basically like the need to perform.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:20):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (22:21):

Like the need to look impressive to other people, and I do think that is definitely a prevalent part of Wake Forest culture, and definitely with other colleges with high-performing students, but I think that it’s just really important to, as early on as you can, get out of that mindset and just do the things that you really want to do, not because they look good or because you’re chasing titles, or anything like that, but because they’re important to you. That would be the actual advice-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:44):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (22:44):

That I would give.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:45):

That’s good. In addition to the-

Cate Pitterle (22:47):

In addition to the high yield savings account.

Sean Brady (22:48):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (22:49):

Amen. (Laughs)

Sydney Smith (22:51):

I’ll start with this. I’m going to pat myself on the back briefly, because I did just write the Letters So Dear.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:55):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (22:56):

That hopefully the incoming fist-year students-

Cate Pitterle (22:58):

Nice.

Sydney Smith (22:59):

… will, you know, read. And I did give, uh, my top ten pieces of advice.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:01):

Okay.

Sydney Smith (23:02):

So I was trying to figure out which one I felt like I should say for this. Originally, I was going to say stop comparing yourself to everyone else, but I feel like that combines everyone else’s advice, so I’ll say it. Stop comparing yourself to everyone else, please, please, please.

(23:13):

But honestly, I would rather give a piece of advice that’s more general and less specific to Wake. My dad, growing up, would always say this to me, and I kinda always thought it was silly, but you should find at least one thing to smile about every day. One specific thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

Hmm.

Sydney Smith (23:27):

I tried to be really good about it, I would try to do one good thing a day, I’d write it down because even if you had the worst day in the world, at least one good thing happened. And I feel like, especially when you’re away from home, in whatever capacity, whether it’s at Wake or some other place, when you’re in that new stage of your life as a incoming college freshman, it’s really easy to fixate on the negative things, or the things that aren’t going according to plan. And I think acknowledging that at least once before you go to bed that night is just so, so important in college and beyond. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:54):

Yeah. Such good lessons. So on that same thread, I want to know what is one good thing that you’re looking forward to as you think about the future?

Sean Brady (24:03):

I guess I’ll jump in. I think like it is definitely sad, I think we’re all feeling that way, that because this feels like home, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:10):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (24:10):

And there’s a little sentiment in my mind of, “I wish I had that year back,” in a way.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (24:14):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Of course.

Sean Brady (24:15):

Like I see what value this has brought to my life, and ability to grow, and I wish I had that freshman year to capitalize on. I never feel like I’m truly leaving, foresee Wake Forest being a, a component of my life forever, and I think it’s like a goodbye for not, but not forever.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

Right. Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (24:30):

In, in that sense, but I think because of people I’ve met, I’ll always see Wake Forest wherever I go. And the ability to be fortunate enough to have a job, going up to New York City next, in the fall-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:40):

Congrats. Exciting.

Sean Brady (24:40):

And I know a lot of people that are going to be there.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:42):

Yeah, exciting.

Sean Brady (24:42):

And I think that’s the most exciting part is, is that I don’t feel the freshman self of, “Ooh, who am I going to meet? Who am I going to know?” I know there’s people that I’m going to get to meet and that I’ve never seen before in my life, I think it’s comforting to know that I’m kind of moving with a team of Demon Deacons up there.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:56):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (24:57):

Some of my best friends here at Wake Forest are going to be going up as well, and I think that’s what I’m excited about.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:01):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (25:01):

As someone who’s not exactly sure which city I’m going to end up in yet-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:05):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (25:05):

First of all, I’m very grateful for the fact that Wake Forest has hubs in a lot of the places that I would really be excited about going to.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (25:11):

And as someone who was a little nervous coming in their freshman year, even though people will say, “Oh, yeah, you know, you’re talkative,” obviously. Um. “You have a bigger personality, you don’t need to worry about how you’re going to make friends or how that process will go smoothly for you, or if it’ll go smoothly, because you’re doing fine.” I still get nervous about it though.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:26):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (25:26):

And instead of focusing or fixating on the nerves of, “Who am I going to talk to all the time next year? What is it going to be like when I’m in my first, you know, big girl job?” I’m excited for it.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:35):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (25:35):

Because I don’t know who those people are yet, and I think that spins something, especially, like post Spring Break, as we really move closer to graduation, I’ve had to get comfortable with, or try to get comfortable with the idea of not being a freshman again, but being new again.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:47):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (25:47):

Even if you do have the Demon Deacons around you, it’s like, “Where’s this place and where am I?”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:51):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (25:51):

“Who am I? And who do I want to become?” I’m excited for that.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:56):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (25:56):

And I want to know what’s coming next.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:56):

Something to look forward to, for sure.

Cate Pitterle (25:57):

That’s so true. I feel like you’re kind of talking about something that I’ve really been like hitting on lately, is embracing the unknown.

Sydney Smith (26:03):

Yes.

Cate Pitterle (26:04):

This idea, I was just talking about this with somebody, that when you’re in middle school, you go to high school. When you’re in high school, you go to college. And then when you’re done with college, what next?

Sydney Smith (26:11):

Right. (Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (26:12):

So I think, for me, like just not really knowing what working is going to be like and that sort of thing, that’s something that I have just really learned to embrace.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:20):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (26:20):

I’m just really excited to explore, to try new things, to meet new people, and I do think, like to your point, that not knowing where my friends are going to be, not knowing whether or how I’m going to be able to be regularly in touch with a lot of my friends at Wake Forest, just kind of taking a step back, allowing myself to reflect, kind of sit with that uncertainty, and just kind of understand that like it’s going to be okay and that the people who are really meaningful in your life, you’re going to stay in contact with them. And coming home for Homecoming will be really wonderful, so I’m really excited for a change, honestly.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:52):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (26:53):

I know that we’ve had three, four, however you want to qualify the years at Wake Forest, of college, and even though it hasn’t all been typical, it’s definitely become like very routine, and it’s become very normal-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:05):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (27:06):

And I kind of have this schedule, I have my day-to-day, like I have the things that are normal and familiar to me, and I’m really excited for things to not be normal and familiar anymore.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:13):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (27:13):

And that’s just something that I think at first was really scary, but now I’m, I’m just really excited for it.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:18):

You’re ready.

Cate Pitterle (27:19):

Yeah, I’m ready.

Badr Merdassi (27:20):

The certain uncertainty one can, although it can be sometimes overwhelming, and one can appreciate the day-to-day was still sort of organized.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:29):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (27:30):

So now there’s a huge, not just uncertainty, but you know you’re going somewhere else, and that’s exciting.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:36):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (27:36):

But one thing I’m just so excited about is my mom finally coming here-

Cate Pitterle (27:42):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (27:42):

Um, for graduation.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:44):

(Laughs)

Badr Merdassi (27:45):

I mean, I just can’t wait for that. And that’s one thing I’m really looking forward to, but if we’re talking about future, future, Homecoming is definitely something.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:54):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (27:55):

I can’t even, you know, we’re still processing graduating-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:58):

Right.

Badr Merdassi (27:58):

So Homecoming is still very far away, but still very exciting to think that we’ll be back here, that’s for sure. One thing I can certainly say is that every single student on this table is coming back at Wake at a certain point in time. Maybe we’ll do this exact podcast.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:14):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (28:14):

Just imagine that.

Sydney Smith (28:14):

Oh, a reunion podcast.

Badr Merdassi (28:14):

Just the Reunion Podcast.

Cate Pitterle (28:16):

Aww. That would be cute. Yeah, that’d be really sweet.

Badr Merdassi (28:16):

Like just imagine that. Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (28:16):

Not how to college, how to adult.

Sydney Smith (28:23):

Adult, yes. It’s a series, I like it. Wow. Stop it.

Cate Pitterle (28:25):

Don’t say that.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:25):

Y’all got me all in the feels right now. The way I would love to end our time together, thankfully I have the best job on campus, and it’s not ending, but at least for today. I just want to know what you’re grateful for right now.

Sean Brady (28:40):

Without a doubt, absolutely grateful for my family and friends. And I know that can sound kind of like straightforward, but I’m very thankful for my family for being able to provide the opportunity for me to attend an institution like Wake Forest, and to help set me up for success to take advantage of this environment I’m in, and I’m absolutely thankful for my best friends here at Wake, and the six guys who I’m referencing, they know who they are, but uh, without them, Wake Forest wouldn’t be what that is, what it is to me, and I don’t think I would’ve succeeded at Wake Forest without my family or friends.

Badr Merdassi (29:11):

It’s going to sound repetitive, but definitely my family, but especially my mom. I mean, I definitely would not be able, not only to be here, but stay here and also succeed here.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:23):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (29:24):

And you know, every day it’s just, when it’s a struggle, I just call my mom, and even with the time difference, struggling and all over everything, and she just grounds me back.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Mm.

Badr Merdassi (29:35):

And, and that works even with a phone call.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:38):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (29:38):

And that’s powerful.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:40):

It is.

Badr Merdassi (29:40):

So I’m very, very grateful to her. I’ll let here know when this podcast airs, and uh, she’ll listen to this, so …

Shea Kidd Brown (29:47):

And even that powerful relationship spans-

Badr Merdassi (29:49):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:50):

No matter how far away you are.

Badr Merdassi (29:51):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:51):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (29:52):

Exactly.

Cate Pitterle (29:52):

I think we all might have the same answer.

Sydney Smith (29:53):

We definitely do.

Cate Pitterle (29:58):

I was just thinking, I was like, “What else could I say I’m grateful for,” because I … the people are what come to mind-

Sydney Smith (30:01):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:02):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (30:02):

First as well. I mean, my parents, of course. Like they have been just my in-built, like support system forever, but my mom and dad are very familiar with my walking to class calls.

Sean Brady (30:13):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (30:13):

Just like the designated, like random times of day, where I just am like, “Hey, I just wanted to update you on this random mundane thing that happened.”

Sean Brady (30:20):

(Laughs)

Cate Pitterle (30:21):

And it’s very important to me that you know this right now, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m going to get lunch, and I’m going to go get Chick-fil-A, I’m going to eat chicken nugget,” like just like, you know, like just-

Sydney Smith (30:29):

The daily.

Cate Pitterle (30:30):

Just the daily.

Sydney Smith (30:31):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (30:31):

And I’m very grateful that they are willing to listen to that, but also that they have been there for me throughout all four years, and obviously will continue to be there for me. But that’s just something that I’m really grateful for, that … I was just on the phone with them, so I’ve just been, been thinking about that. But also the people here, who have kind of become like those advice givers for me, I feel like I have a few people, you included, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

Oh, thank you.

Cate Pitterle (30:54):

Who have given me just really great advice, who have kind of been a listening ear, who have sat and listened when I’ve needed it, who have been the people who I can go to if I’m, like if I have an actual problem, which is, luckily, rare. But, but also just if I, you know, want to talk or want to get some advice on something, or … It’s been really nice to have people who I feel like I can go to with anything.

Sydney Smith (31:16):

I will round it off with a similar answer, but I’ll try to make it somewhat different-

Sean Brady (31:21):

(Laughs)

Sydney Smith (31:21):

With a brief anecdote. I almost didn’t apply to Wake. I came up and I toured, and I did the interview-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:26):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (31:26):

And my application. And then, because I said earlier in the podcast that I am indecisive, but I like having a lot options-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:32):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (31:32):

That I didn’t decide until May 1st. I was driving home one day from high school, before the COVID, you know, came in to attack us. And my mom called me on the phone, she said, “Oh, how are college apps going? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” I said, “You know, I think I’m just about done. I’ve gotten them all in, I’m going to wait and hear back now.” And she said, “What about Wake?” I was like, “Oh, I didn’t apply.” She was like, “Why not?” She was very upset. She was very upset, obviously. And I was like, “Well, I just, you know, it’s already up, like past 10 schools, I think I’m okay.” And she said, “You already went up there, you already did the interview, just apply. Just take the opportunity.” And I did, and good things happen.

(32:02):

So people ask me if I can describe Wake, you know, a couple of words or one word, I usually tend to say that it’s an opportunity, and it was definitely a very large opportunity that was made affordable in a lot of ways for me, and I’m just so grateful for that. So to answer your question, my family, of course. Especially my mom, because I wouldn’t be right-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:19):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (32:19):

Literally, in so many ways.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:20):

Without that nudge.

Sydney Smith (32:21):

Yes, without that nudge.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:22):

Push, maybe.

Sydney Smith (32:23):

Yes, it was a push. Also, I’m grateful for the opportunities, plural, that Wake has afforded to me. When you told my introduction on the podcast, you wrote … you said Homecoming Queen, and even being on Homecoming Court, it was like, it felt so superficial, to a degree, because it’s like same ol’, same ol’, it’s like high school again, and now I’m working with people on the court, trying to figure out, you know, next year, what sort of service opportunities they could do, what’s like the next step? And I just feel like Wake has compounded upon itself in my life as opportunities-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:50):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (32:51):

And just how I can either make an opportunity available and affordable to me, or to others. So I’m grateful for my family and the opportunities that Wake has afforded to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:59):

Well, you can’t see the chills, but I do have chills-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:02):

As you’re talking about, you know, the people in your life and the connectivity through all of your gratitude, I think is really powerful, and for your families to know how critical they’ve been to your success, and to hear your chosen family that you found at Wake, be it friends, family, uh, friends, faculty, administrators, staff. And Sydney, how you ended, just this whole spirit of Pro Humanitate, and how the human connection really is what makes this experience so unique. So I’m very grateful to be able to sit at this table with you and also the table that we get to create in a lot of different environments, and I so appreciate you sharing your stories, you know, stories of resilience and stories of uncertainty, and trying to figure life out as an 18-year-old, and your stories of accomplishment, meaning, you know, what did you learn about yourself and other people, and how did other people bring you along?

(33:58):

So it’s just been such a rich conversation, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so excited for you, as you think about the future, for some it’s still unknown, but we all know you’re going to be just fine because this education, which you know happens in formal ways and really informal ways, has prepared, and you’re ready. There is no doubt that you’re ready for the world. A lot of people will say, “Can’t wait to see where the journey takes you,” and I can’t wait to see where you take the journey, because you get to really decide and dictate what those twists and turns are going to be, and just know that it’s going to take you far.

(34:33):

And so I feel so grateful, and this community is enriched and so much better because of each of you. So thank you for being here-

Badr Merdassi (34:41):

Thank you.

Sean Brady (34:41):

Thank you. That was wonderful.

Cate Pitterle (34:41):

Thank you, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

Yes. I can’t wait to celebrate you on the quad.

Sydney Smith (34:45):

See you on May 20, yes.

Cate Pitterle (34:45):

Yes.

Sean Brady (34:46):

Yeah, be here before we know it.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

Very much so. So thank you all.

Sean Brady (34:50):

Thank you.

Cate Pitterle (34:50):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:53):

Oh my goodness. My cup is so full, and I said this when I was talking to the students, but I have the best job on campus. I mean, just hearing these amazing students and their stories, and how they have made sense of these last four years, I have so many things that I need to process, based on all the wisdom that they shared. These students were second years when I began, and it is absolutely amazing hearing their stories. No doubt, they are going places and I know they will take this special time with them for a lifetime.

(35:27):

I hope you took note of all of the knowledge that they dropped, and I want to thank you so much for listening. In a world that has a lot of noise, I appreciate you dedicating the time to hear their experiences. And truly, I think it’s an opportunity for us to think about what we’ve all learned through the last four years, what lessons have we learned about ourselves? What are we grateful for? What have we overcome? I think those are all important things for us to reflect on, particularly for this episode. We all have a unique story to share, I kid you not. So let’s keep leaning into the hard work and heart work that life brings our way.

MaryAnna Bailey (36:09):

This episode what produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 15: Farewell to the Forest-Pt. 1

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with four graduating seniors from the Class of 2024. This is a two-part episode! And, we begin this with Cate Pitterle, Badr Merdassi, Sydney Smith, and Sean Brady all joining us to share tales from their first-year, what it means to be known as the Covid class, how graduating in 2020 in the peak of a pandemic changed their lives, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:00):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and I’ve got an exciting episode for you.

(00:13):

This time of year on a college campus is all about the celebration. This year we are especially mindful of the class of 2024 and their journey since 2020. From abruptly ending high school to a bumpy start in college in isolation, there is so much learning that has happened with this group. I’m truly amazed each time I learn about their experiences.

(00:37):

And today we have four graduating Wake Forest seniors. And let me tell you, I cannot wait to jump into this conversation.

Cate Pitterle (00:47):

Hey.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:47):

Hi.

Sydney Smith (00:47):

Hey.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:49):

How you doing?

Cate Pitterle (00:49):

Good, how are you?

Sydney Smith (00:49):

Good.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:50):

Good, I’m great. I’m even better now that I get to see y’all. How are you all doing?

Badr Merdassi (00:55):

Pretty good.

Sydney Smith (00:55):

Good.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:56):

I have to say, I am so glad to be sitting with each of you. And for all the listeners out there, I am sitting with four very accomplished students. And between you, I am going to do a little bit of reading ’cause I wanna get this right, three different kinds of scholars, two presidents aids, representatives from student government, a student athlete, and homecoming queen (laughs), student employee, members of Panhellenic Council, NPHC, and the Interfraternity Council.

(01:22):

We have in state students, out of state students, and an international student. At least six languages are represented here. Courses of study in STEM, humanities, economics and politics, and representatives from too many clubs to count.

Badr Merdassi (01:37):

(laughs).

Cate Pitterle (01:37):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (01:38):

So you’re such a great snapshot of Wake Forest students, so I’m really, really excited that you’re here today.

(01:44):

There’s one really important thing you have in common, you all started in the fall of 2020 at Wake Forest. If you think back, college courses were meeting remotely, student gatherings were restricted, weekly COVID testing was the norm.

Sydney Smith (02:01):

Oh, God.

Cate Pitterle (02:01):

I forgot about that.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:02):

I know. Fast-forward today, you’re all thriving seniors who, I noted earlier, you have all been super involved on this campus and our community locally, regionally, nationally, internationally.

(02:13):

I wanna hear about what that journey has been like for you. So before we get into all that, I do wanna do a quick round of introductions. So let’s start with your name, where home is for you, and your major. Like I said, where you call home, so often I don’t say where are you from, but I wanna know where home is for you.

(02:32):

So we’ll start maybe with Badr.

Badr Merdassi (02:36):

All right. Well, my name is Badr Merdassi. I’m double majoring in biology and in economics. Home for me is Tunisia, and that’s also where I’m from. And I look forward to this podcast.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

Yeah. Only a few more weeks.

Sydney Smith (02:50):

Stop.

Cate Pitterle (02:50):

Don’t say that. Don’t say that.

Sydney Smith (02:50):

Don’t say that again.

Cate Pitterle (02:50):

[inaudible 00:02:54] (laughs).

Sean Brady (02:54):

Yeah. So my name’s Sean Brady. I’m also a senior, as we’ve all talked about. Home for me is Wilmington, Delaware. I’ve been able to be a double major in economics and politics.

Cate Pitterle (03:03):

I’m Cate Pitterle. I’m from Cary, North Carolina, which is kind of near Raleigh, if you’re familiar. I’m a politics major, with minors in Russian and history.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:12):

Excellent. So politics and politics. Let’s see if Sydney continues some-

Sydney Smith (03:16):

Oh…

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

… contagion of connectivity with majors (laughs).

Sydney Smith (03:20):

Only a smidgen. So, hi, everyone. My name is Sydney Smith. And I’m also a fourth senior here. Home for me is Lawrenceville, Georgia, but I lie when I’m at Wake, and I tell everyone that I’m from Atlanta. Um (laughs), so I’m maybe, you know, 30 minutes outside of Atlanta-

Cate Pitterle (03:32):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (03:33):

… if I’m gonna be truthful on the podcast.

(03:35):

I’m a communication major, and a journalism minor. I took French for the first two years here, but I will say that one of my on campus jobs has allowed me to start very, very, a smidgen, learning Russian.

Cate Pitterle (03:45):

Cool.

Sydney Smith (03:45):

Only a little bit. Only a little bit.

Cate Pitterle (03:47):

Oh, interesting.

Sydney Smith (03:48):

Yes. You can’t ask me any of it, it’s all on my phone right now, but (laughs)…

Cate Pitterle (03:49):

Yeah, you probably can’t ask me either (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (03:52):

I love it, I love it. So thank y’all, thank you again for being here. I think as we were trying to put the season together, it felt important to me that we hear from students who are nearing a really important milestone, but also very different from the average student in May, like, your whole formative years in many ways have been shaped by a global pandemic. I think back to high school and what was happening there, and also your start to college.

(04:21):

So let’s rewind back to high school, you were likely finishing your senior year, many of you, from a computer screen. Not exactly what you imagined. Perhaps the hopes of prom were dashed, perhaps a senior trip, or various parties and graduation, so you didn’t really have that celebration. And then as you thought about college (laughs) and what that might look like, you’re getting ready for a huge transition in your life.

(04:46):

So I think the first question, for some of these I may direct to particular people or… but feel free to react to each other certainly as we’re talking. But what were you thinking during that summer 2020? And how did you approach that transition to Wake Forest?

(05:01):

So maybe let’s start with Cate, and then maybe go in order of distance to your travel to Wake Forest, so maybe that would be Sydney, and then Sean, and then finally Badr, whose transition involved the ocean.

Cate Pitterle (05:16):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

How does that sound?

Badr Merdassi (05:16):

That’s-

Sydney Smith (05:16):

Sounds good.

Cate Pitterle (05:16):

Yeah. I definitely remember feeling like things were very uncertain. More than anything, I remember doing a Netflix party with my best friend, watching High School Musical 3, which is the movie where they graduate, and just hoping that we would have something similar.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:35):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (05:35):

My high school really, really tried to prepare something for us, so we ended up did, having a very small graduation ceremony. And I think that sense of ritual, celebration-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (05:43):

… was really, really important. And I think that’s something that we lost, that in particular the cost of 2020 of high school was really, really craving… we realized how much ritual meant to all of us.

(05:53):

But I was kind of straddling between these two worlds of not really knowing if I was gonna get to technically graduate high school, but also trying to prep myself for this really, really big transition of going to college.

(06:04):

I do remember being very grateful that I wasn’t moving too far away from home.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Sure.

Cate Pitterle (06:07):

And the one thing I do remember thinking especially as we were going into August, having a lot of friends who went to UNC Chapel Hill, and NC State, was just this hope that we were gonna be able to remain on campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:17):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (06:18):

…for the year. All of the students at UNC Chapel Hill and NC State were sent home after, I think, 12 days.

Sydney Smith (06:23):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (06:24):

So I was just really grateful when right after they had all been sent home, we were able to move onto campus.

(06:29):

And there was a lot going on in my brain back then, but that was definitely, I think, where my head was at.

Sydney Smith (06:33):

Similar to you, so being from Georgia, or we’ll put it in quotation marks, so being from “Atlanta” it was weird during the summer of 2020. There was a lot going on with COVID, and also just with social activism, and a lot was happening in the United States.

(06:46):

I remember back in March when college decisions were coming out, also a very indecisive person, I like to have a lot of options, so I actually didn’t choose Wake until the May 1st decision day (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

(laughs).

Sydney Smith (06:55):

When I finally settled on that, and I was trying to, you know, get excited with my parents, even though COVID was still at large, if you will, I was like, all of a sudden it hit, “Oh, you know, I am going out of state.” Which I was always excited to do, I always wanted to be an out of state student.

(07:09):

Also, a lot of my friends were very surprised when I chose Wake, because it is a smaller, more community knit type of school. And they were all like, “Oh, you’re gonna go to a big state school,” and that was sort of my personality going into college. But then it hit, you know, “I don’t know anyone.” And then we’ve all been inside of our houses for weeks and months at a time, like, “Do I still know how to talk to people? Am I gonna be good at this? Will I make any friends?”

(07:29):

So I actually growing up doing gymnastics and cheer in high school, I told everyone in high school I was not gonna try out for cheer. I thought it was very silly at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (07:36):

And then COVID being COVID convinced me to step (laughs) out of my comfort zone. So my head was sort of at, “Try anything, try everything, make a couple friends, and nothing can hurt.” Which is why when I got to Wake I was really grateful for already having that sort of student athlete community on campus.

(07:50):

And similar to what Cate was saying, I was like, “Oh, I might be a part of a team. But is that team gonna be able to remain on campus?”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:54):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (07:55):

And that was a really big part of my, I guess, anxieties. I was really happy that we were able to stay, and also happy that we were even able to attend the sporting events.

(08:03):

I would say, moving into my freshman year my mind was just, “Just go for it.” Because I don’t wanna miss out on any small things, since so many things were taken away our senior year.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

Right.

Sean Brady (08:11):

For me, my kinda thoughts kind of began actually the summer prior, so I di- had an opportunity to visit Wake Forest in July. I was sold on Wake Forest right away, that’s where I did early decision. Like, I came back down in September on a beautiful fall day, people all out over the quad, and I had a vision of what Wake Forest looked like.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:27):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (08:28):

I had seen it on a summer day, but I had also seen it on a fall day, and a lot of similarities, maybe not as many people in July. But I knew what the Wake Forest campus looked like and felt like, and it had so many, you know, connections to where I went for high school.

(08:40):

And prior to that, ’cause I went the same place all 14 years, it was s- small class sizes-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (08:45):

… personal connections with your professors and administrators and others on campus.

(08:49):

And COVID began to hit, and that kind of feeling in high schools across the country, right before spring break, of, “What is this thing that everyone’s talking about in the news? Are we gonna be back afterward?”

(08:58):

It was all a lot of thoughts at once, because having been accepted to Wake Forest in the fall, I had a lot of time to plan out everything I thought I was gonna do at Wake Forest.

Sydney Smith (09:06):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:06):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (09:06):

Right? Like, I’m a bit of a, of a planner in that sense. And I thought, “This is the group I’m gonna join, this is the club or organization, these are the classes I’m gonna take.” Having all that time, and, you know, COVID hits. It’s similar to what we were talking about, it’s like this sense of unknown and kind of a, a loss of connection, and unsure of…

(09:20):

But I think, for me, what brought me comfort was compared to other classmates of mine back home, Wake Forest seemed to have a very, like, deliberate approach early on of being very present with the incoming class, but also the students that are currently here.

(09:35):

May or June and I was getting on a Zoom, and I saw two people I had no idea, but they were President Hatch and Vice-President Rue.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:42):

(laughs).

Cate Pitterle (09:43):

(laughs).

Sean Brady (09:43):

And they, they were just their face, no one else. And I knew there was a thousand other people on this screen, that was kind of my first, like, true connection to Wake Forest post-COVID, were two faces that were trying to be inspiring in this uncertain time of really selling the class on, “We’re gonna bring you back. Might not know every particular of that, but Wake Forest is a community, and that’s what we’re built on. And we believe that has to be in-person to the best of our ability.”

(10:05):

So I think because of that I felt more comfortable-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:07):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (10:07):

… over the summer, knowing that it may look different, but the campus was working to recreate.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:12):

Yeah, there’s a plan.

Sean Brady (10:13):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (10:13):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:13):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (10:14):

It’s kind of funny to remember all this right now, you were just, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:17):

This can also feel like therapy for y’all, if that, if that helps (laughs).

Cate Pitterle (10:17):

(laughs).

Badr Merdassi (10:20):

Yeah. And, I mean, in a way it’s therapy/PTSD, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:24):

Oh, I’m sorry.

Badr Merdassi (10:24):

No. That time was definitely something I was not prepared for, but I don’t think anyone was prepared for that.

(10:30):

The last part of my high school was online. And Tunisia at that time didn’t have a lot of COVID cases, but because I went to French school and France had a lot of COVID cases, the president of France at that time just decreed that all schools, even at home or overseas, would close and go online. So we went online, although in Tunisia COVID was not that widespread in 2020.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:54):

And what month was that, do you remember?

Badr Merdassi (10:56):

That was around April 2020.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:57):

Yeah, so a little bit…

Badr Merdassi (10:58):

We went online beginning of April. I had accepted my admission for Wake Forest in March. And then we actually had a ceremony for graduation, and it was really fun.

(11:08):

I had, I would say, quite a fun summer. There were not a lot of restrictions in Tunisia. The last part, August, they really changed. The whole country was on absolute lockdown, curfew. You know, the semester was going to start, and I just, “Where am I going?”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:24):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (11:24):

“How is this gonna be?” My parents were so afraid, they weren’t talking about a vaccine at that time.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:30):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (11:30):

Which it seems crazy to us right now, but that was the case. So they decided that I would be doing fall semester from home. I remember receiving an email from the registrar’s office that was saying, “Well, you didn’t register for any classes. What is happening?”

(11:45):

I didn’t even know we had to register for classes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:48):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (11:49):

I didn’t know what a credit meant. I’m coming from a different system, and I was just so sad that I was missing on this experience. I was thinking, “Oh my God, everyone is having the fun-“

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (12:01):

Like, “They, you know, deserve in college. They’re starting their freshman year,” and I’m just here in my room, and that’s college for me. And I just couldn’t believe it.

(12:10):

You know, I was looking at people on the screen, and was like, “Right after classes I’m sure they’re going to do something.”

Cate Pitterle (12:16):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (12:16):

(laughs).

Badr Merdassi (12:17):

“They’re going for, you know, university clubs,” and things like that. But it wasn’t the case.

(12:20):

And then I came spring semester. And spring, sun, everything was blooming. And then that’s the Wake Forest I’d seen in the videos-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (12:29):

… and on YouTube, because that’s the extent I had seen before coming. It was just I’ve never come to North Carolina, never visited Wake, so that was my start.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:36):

Thank you. You all have some connectivity to your stories, but it’s all very distinctly different. It’s really interesting to hear how everyone was making meaning, someone from in state, someone from not too far away but a different state, someone from the northeast, and then someone international. Even the timeframes are different for you, Badr-

Badr Merdassi (12:53):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

… because this thing was so geographically oriented.

Badr Merdassi (12:57):

Oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:57):

Which is we now are in a place where we can reflect back a little bit-

Badr Merdassi (13:01):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (13:01):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:01):

… about all the things that were happening.

(13:03):

So, Badr, you started us on this track of, like, what that first semester was like. So I would love to just hear a little bit about what did it feel like to be on campus? What were the words that you would use to articulate? And this is, you know, anybody who wants to jump in.

Sydney Smith (13:19):

Uh, color orange, right? (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (13:21):

Color orange.

Badr Merdassi (13:22):

Oh, yeah.

Sydney Smith (13:22):

Yeah, burnt orange.

Cate Pitterle (13:23):

Burnt orange, yeah.

Sydney Smith (13:23):

That’s what it was. So I personally liked when I got to Wake’s campus, especially in comparison to those larger state schools, being from, like, the SEC territory, or even you were talking about being from in state, you know, NC State and UNC.

(13:35):

The way that Wake did it was that we were at, like, a yellow sort of status, and that was denoting, you know, how bad COVID had spread on campus..

Shea Kidd Brown (13:42):

So there was the whole color coding spectrum?

Sydney Smith (13:44):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (13:44):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (13:44):

And we knew what would happen-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:45):

And I wasn’t here yet-

Cate Pitterle (13:45):

See, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:47):

… that’s one thing that I didn’t share, but… Yes.

Sydney Smith (13:48):

I was gonna say. So they had yellow for the most part, right?

Cate Pitterle (13:51):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (13:51):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (13:51):

Throughout our first semester.

Sean Brady (13:53):

It was almost through the end of September, right?

Sydney Smith (13:54):

Yes.

Sean Brady (13:55):

I think it was right around, like, the normal fall break-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:57):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (13:57):

… is when we had some orange pop up.

Sydney Smith (13:58):

Some spikes and everything.

Cate Pitterle (13:59):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (14:00):

So we never went to red.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

Okay.

Sydney Smith (14:01):

Which I thought was-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:02):

And that was the worst?

Sydney Smith (14:02):

That was, like, your whole-

Cate Pitterle (14:03):

Purple was getting sent home.

Sean Brady (14:04):

I think that-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

Oh, okay.

Sean Brady (14:04):

Yeah. I think red was, like, a complete s-, uh, cease of all campus activity.

Cate Pitterle (14:09):

Yeah, you’re right.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:09):

Okay.

Sean Brady (14:09):

Like, no in-person class, I think we-

Sydney Smith (14:10):

Like, you can’t leave even your room, right?

Sean Brady (14:12):

Yeah. I think we went to a darker orange.

Sydney Smith (14:13):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (14:14):

That, like, a, a new color orange-

Sydney Smith (14:15):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (14:15):

… just to avoid red at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:16):

Okay.

Sean Brady (14:16):

Just to kind of keep somewhere in the middle.

Sydney Smith (14:18):

Mm-hmm. So when burnt orange, like, came out and everyone, they changed it, it was on lower quad and they had this big sort of not tarp, but almost like a poster board that would denote what level color we were at.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (14:29):

And they changed it to burnt orange, and everyone, especially the freshmen, we were like, in my opinion not going crazy, but we were so worried.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:35):

You were nervous.

Sydney Smith (14:35):

Yeah, nervous-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (14:36):

… ’cause you don’t wanna get sent home or have anything really bad happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:38):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (14:39):

We didn’t know what was gonna go on.

(14:40):

I remember my friends in the basement of Babcock, the day before we thought it was gonna go to burnt orange everyone was Uber Eating and everyone was Instacart-ing things from Publix, ’cause they were like, “We’re gonna have to stay in our dorms.”

Sean Brady (14:51):

Like hurricane preparation, right?

Sydney Smith (14:53):

Yes. It was like a natural disaster preparation, we were so nervous. And then I think it was burnt orange for, like, a little bit, and that was short-lived. And then things started to sort of mellow out after a while.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:01):

Okay.

Sean Brady (15:01):

Remember the day that we shifted? Because I think the first thing I’d do every morning when I’d wake up is check COVID dashboard.

Sydney Smith (15:07):

Yes.

Badr Merdassi (15:08):

Oh, yeah, that…

Sydney Smith (15:08):

Yes (laughs).

Cate Pitterle (15:08):

Yeah, daily routine.

Sean Brady (15:08):

It was, like, my most visited bookmark, ’cause I was like, “This dashboard will depict kinda how the day goes,” in that sense. And trying to get a better understanding of what campus looked like. And so some days it would seem normal, and then other days you would be like, “Oh, wait, is this-“

Sydney Smith (15:20):

Oh gosh.

Sean Brady (15:20):

“This is… There’s five people now today, what would that be?”

(15:23):

It just seemed almost, uh, like, fake in a way. But, like, as I was coming up the, the lower quad to the Pit, the wonderful people from facilities and campus services, but they were dawning a new banner over the Pit stairs, and was to indicate orange.

(15:37):

And, like, you kinda see this, and overwhelming feeling, ’cause you’re like, “I don’t know what this means,” you know?

Sydney Smith (15:42):

Right.

Sean Brady (15:42):

“What are they trying to say? Can I even go into the Pit now?”

(15:45):

A lot of our first semester was kinda defined by the visuals on campus-

Sydney Smith (15:48):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (15:48):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (15:49):

… there was a lot of posters, there were the little things that hung on the door handles to your dorm room-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:53):

Oh, no.

Sean Brady (15:53):

… kinda offering safety tips, or stickers on the bathroom wall, or whatever it might be. I think those kind of alluded to me where we were with COVID on the campus, when there’s more signage things weren’t s great, when there’s less signage more people were outside, things seemed to be better.

Badr Merdassi (16:07):

You know, my first semester, I would say, in college was spring. And I came in and I had to do a mandatory first week quarantine, although I was negative, because of international travel. And then I came in, and it was yellow at that time, beginning of spring semester.

(16:21):

And then I got exposed to what the dashboard meant, it fluctuates. And that’s how your semester fluctuates.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:28):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (16:28):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (16:28):

It fluctuates with the number of cases.

(16:30):

And when we went into dark orange, I remember it was 390 plus, I don’t know exactly the number, cases a day. And what defined that moment, I will never forget it, were the buses on campus that shuttled students to hotels in the Winston-Salem community.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:52):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (16:53):

We were getting tested, but if you were positive then the suite mates you were living with also had to be quarantined.

Sydney Smith (17:00):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (17:00):

Would go, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:00):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (17:00):

I didn’t have COVID, but I was contact traced, that’s another word-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:04):

Oh, you’re bringing back all these terms.

Cate Pitterle (17:07):

I remember [inaudible 00:17:08].

Badr Merdassi (17:08):

Contact tracing, oh yes. And, believe it or not, but I remember two people all in white came into my room and sprayed my room-

Sydney Smith (17:16):

Yes.

Badr Merdassi (17:17):

… because it was COVID.

Sydney Smith (17:17):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (17:18):

And then the bus picked me up, and stopped at probably every dorm on this campus to pick other people up, and dropped us at hotels.

Cate Pitterle (17:26):

It’s so interesting everybody brings up the hotels, because I remember, and this is something I thought as really, really weird around younger students now, is that-

Sydney Smith (17:32):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (17:32):

… the Best Western especially became kind of notorious.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:34):

Yes.

Cate Pitterle (17:35):

And nobody understands.

Badr Merdassi (17:36):

Oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

Best Western on the plus.

Cate Pitterle (17:36):

We’re the only ones left who understand. Yeah.

Sydney Smith (17:38):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (17:39):

Like, just like certain, like, things that happened, and like inside jokes that I feel like our grade had.

Sydney Smith (17:43):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (17:43):

Or like at least that, like, my friends and I had.

Badr Merdassi (17:46):

Absolutely.

Cate Pitterle (17:46):

Like, about the hotels, or like, you know, like, “Oh, I’m going to the Besty Westy.”

Sydney Smith (17:48):

Westy (laughs).

Cate Pitterle (17:48):

Like, “Oh…” Yeah (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

Yes.

Cate Pitterle (17:49):

Like, I feel like it’s just really odd now to be the only ones, kind of how everybody during COVID, especially like that fall and spring semester ’20, ’21, was this craving for information.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:00):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (18:01):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (18:01):

Nobody had any information. I actually joined the Old Gold & Black partially because I wanted information, and so I could at least communicate that.

Sydney Smith (18:10):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (18:11):

Like, try to, like, create some sort of link between administrators and all of the health-

Sydney Smith (18:15):

Right.

Cate Pitterle (18:15):

… policy people who I got to know, honestly, very well.

Sydney Smith (18:17):

And there’s comfort in knowing.

Badr Merdassi (18:17):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (18:20):

Right. And I just remember, like, just calling administrators. I got very, very close with, like, a few administrators, like Penny Rue, who’s your predecessor, Peterson, like, they were all fantastic.

(18:28):

And I just remember, though, like, I would tell my friends, like, some stuff that was happening, and the rumor mill was just-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:32):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (18:32):

Godawful.

Cate Pitterle (18:33):

… out of control. And it was really, really hard to stay above that, it was just a lot of anxiety, I think, that was in the air.

Sydney Smith (18:41):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (18:41):

And definitely during my time there it was also wonderful, because the OGB was one of the only clubs on campus that was able to meet in person, so that was a great sense of community for me. But it was also just really great in terms of being able to get, yeah, some of the comfort of knowing what was going on-

Sydney Smith (18:55):

Right.

Cate Pitterle (18:56):

… and not being so susceptible to the rumor mill.

Sydney Smith (18:58):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (18:59):

Information that was coming at us at times, it wasn’t even a lack of information, it was almost too much information.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:04):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (19:05):

And it w- felt overwhelming at times.

Sydney Smith (19:07):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (19:07):

And that’s something that I definitely haven’t really felt since, I think. That was just really exacerbated during COVID, was just the amount of information flying at you.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:15):

Yeah. And processing also being a student-

Cate Pitterle (19:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:18):

… during this period of time.

Cate Pitterle (19:18):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:19):

And classes.

Cate Pitterle (19:20):

It’s super true.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:21):

Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, so much of what was scary about that period of time for all of us was the not knowing, you know? And I, I was at the University of Tennessee the spring of your high school, very much trying to hold as much as I could. And was dealing with students, and so working alongside the administration around… This was different for y’all, but maybe not.

(19:45):

In colleges we sent students home for spring break, and thought, “We’ll be closed for a little bit,” you know? And that was, I think, a lot of people’s perspective too, was that this was gonna be much more short term than it ended up being. It’s conjuring up some memories for me as well.

(20:02):

Many of you talked about, “Okay, this is what it was like.” How did you find connection and community? Cate, you mentioned the OGB was one of those ways. So maybe it’s a two-parter of what are the ways you remember coping? Who were the people who really helped you and supported you? How did you find that connection and belonging as you moved through that first year?

Badr Merdassi (20:24):

Sense of community sometime was about doing what was needed, while doing your best to maintain everyone safe and healthy.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:34):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (20:34):

While also trying to make a community. Although, even if meant, you know, risking getting caught by the RA, or anyone else at night in the basement of Babcock.

Sydney Smith (20:47):

That is so funny you said the basement of Babcock. So, for context, I did live in the basement of Babcock my freshman year. I did not know Badr, but I do know him now.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:54):

(laughs).

Sydney Smith (20:55):

And I also have been an RA for the past three years, so I, ironically, this doesn’t usually happen, but I have lived in Babcock all four years.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:02):

Wow.

Sydney Smith (21:02):

No idea (laughs) how that happened. But I started in the basement, and now I live on the third floor, so I guess somebody up there is working something out, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Sydney Smith (21:09):

I think that, for whatever reason, the specific floor that you were placed on, it was for our freshman year-

Cate Pitterle (21:15):

Yes. Yes.

Badr Merdassi (21:15):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (21:15):

… that everyone jokes about your freshman year friends, “And that won’t last, because it’s college,” and, you know, you keep on changing and progressing as a person.

(21:24):

You guys all might have different experiences, for me personally, my cohort freshman year of friends, I mean, we’re getting brunch on Easter, because we were all in Base-cock, if you will, we were all in the basement of Babcock our freshman year.

(21:34):

And so I think that we really bonded more than any other-

Badr Merdassi (21:36):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (21:37):

… school year.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:37):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (21:38):

I mean, you know, typically you might live on the basement of Babcock, but of all of the COVID restrictions it was like, “Well, this is my floor, and these are my people.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:43):

These are your people.

Badr Merdassi (21:44):

Exactly.

Sydney Smith (21:44):

I’m about to get a chance to know you. So in my opinion that’s how it was.

Cate Pitterle (21:47):

I’m so excited that you brought that up-

Sydney Smith (21:48):

Aye.

Cate Pitterle (21:48):

… because my freshman year friends are some of my best friends. Like, we’re doing our senior photos next week.

Sydney Smith (21:54):

Yes.

Cate Pitterle (21:54):

I do agree, I feel like when I’ve been talking to younger students about their freshman year friends, and their experiences making friends freshman year have just been so, so different from ours. For the most part community building occurred in residence halls-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:08):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (22:08):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (22:08):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (22:08):

… and it’s actually really interesting, when I started to talk to more people, as things started to open up, where you were placed kind of randomly that freshman year really determined your entire social life for that freshman year.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:20):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (22:20):

Yes.

Badr Merdassi (22:20):

Absolutely.

Cate Pitterle (22:21):

So I got really lucky, I was on Huffman third floor, which is a really interesting place to live-

Sydney Smith (22:26):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (22:26):

… because freshmen do not live there anymore. But it was 13 girls. I don’t know, I just really became close with a lot of the people on my floor, and it was really wonderful. But it was definitely hard to talk with multiple people, we had a really strict RA. It was just so, so restricted.

Badr Merdassi (22:42):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (22:42):

So we had to kind of figure it out, figure out how to make, like, a friend group-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:48):

Right.

Cate Pitterle (22:48):

… when you couldn’t really gather in a group. But I think there’s that unique experience of bonding that you get when you go through that sort of thing together.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:57):

Certainly.

Cate Pitterle (22:57):

Especially because we all ended up randomly being just very similar people.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:00):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (23:01):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (23:01):

Um, (laughs) which I thought was really funny. So I’m really grateful for that.

(23:04):

But I also think that it wasn’t until probably second semester freshman year, quite frankly when I joined a sorority, that in was able to start making more friends outside of that too.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:14):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (23:14):

And once I did that it was easier, but it was very, very difficult outside of your residence hall-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:18):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (23:18):

… to find community.

Sean Brady (23:20):

I do think that, like, some of the people, um, that lived on the same hall I did in Babcock, I was third floor.

Badr Merdassi (23:24):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (23:25):

Babcock, representing.

Sydney Smith (23:26):

Everywhere.

Sean Brady (23:26):

Um, indeed, indeed. And it was interesting to see where, like, I think pretty much everyone who was on that floor with me, like, were also very friendly, in the send of I see them around campus we’re gonna say, “Hey, how’s it going?” You know, and our friend circles have kind of overlapped at some point.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (23:38):

But, you know, kind of where I was, it was a little more of a quieter floor, a lot of people kinda kept to themselves. So it was an interesting dynamic to see.

(23:45):

And one of the things that I still kind of search for, even going into senior year, was kind of like, “What does the freshman year experience look like at Wake?”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:51):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (23:52):

And it’s funny, I’ve had the opportunity to kind of witness it in a way, ’cause my sister’s a freshman here now.

Sydney Smith (23:56):

That’s right.

Cate Pitterle (23:56):

Oh.

Sean Brady (23:57):

So I’ve seen a, a normal freshman year from her perspective. And it, and it is fun, it is everything that-

Sydney Smith (24:01):

(laughs).

Sean Brady (24:01):

… sold me on the Wake Forest way.

(24:03):

A freshman year experience is always gonna be unique for everyone. And I think, you know, we all certainly had a unique experience, but we all shared it together.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:10):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (24:10):

Which allowed for it to kind of be a more even playing field, in a way. So much of how people interact with each other, what we do is, is all perspective based.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:17):

Yeah, totally.

Sean Brady (24:18):

And COVID, while it certainly took a, a lot of lives away from our communities all across the world, and brought a lot of badness to families, and a lot of chaos to the global landscape, everyone treated it a little differently, right?

Cate Pitterle (24:30):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (24:30):

Yeah, absolutely.

Sean Brady (24:31):

I remember some people being like, “Nope,” like, “I was a, a great athlete in high school, like, my lungs are good to go. Like, I can take on any kind of virus illness.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:39):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (24:39):

And others were extremely afraid, and whatever it may be. And it was an interesting balance to kind of hear between both, because on that side of things, like, RAs also had mixed views.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Right.

Sean Brady (24:49):

Some were like, “I get it, I’m a sophomore, I know how valuable freshman bonding is.” Others were, “This is my job,” like, “I’m not the one deciding to enforce it, it’s just what I have to do.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

Right.

Sean Brady (24:59):

And I think that was the most unique part for me, it was everywhere you went it was a case by case, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:04):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (25:04):

… situation of who was in charge, in a way.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:07):

Right. And then that whole environment shaped-

Sean Brady (25:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:09):

… how you were making sense of it. Even picture, you know, you on the quad, and even your outlook to green space, versus if you’re on South Forest and what that might’ve-

Sydney Smith (25:19):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:20):

… meant, versus who randomly you were around. Like, all of those things connected with your experience.

Badr Merdassi (25:26):

You just said something that just gonna h- hop on.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:27):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (25:29):

You talked about green space, et cetera.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:31):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (25:31):

I can’t say h- why or how, but things were just less colorful freshman year.

Sydney Smith (25:38):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (25:39):

You know, Wake puts a lot of effort into making this campus beautiful, and there wasn’t that much emphasis freshman year. And rightfully so-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:47):

Right.

Badr Merdassi (25:48):

… because the folks were somewhere else.

(25:50):

And you said, Sean, something that’s exactly on point, which was every dorm had a specific, you know, situation.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (25:58):

And instead of bar hopping, it was dorm hopping.

Sydney Smith (26:03):

Yes (laughs).

Badr Merdassi (26:03):

And re- that’s, that’s exactly what it was. It was, “What dorm is the most flexible today?”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:07):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (26:08):

“Who’s there? Who’s not there?”

(26:10):

And I don’t know if I’m the only one, but it’s really hard for me sometimes, you know, when I give advice to freshmen. Especially this year I was able to speak to the entire class on how to college, thanks to you, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:24):

(laughs).

Badr Merdassi (26:25):

And I felt jealous, a bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:27):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (26:27):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (26:27):

I really did.

Cate Pitterle (26:28):

Yes.

Badr Merdassi (26:29):

And I just could not resist it. And I continue to feel that.

(26:32):

I am really happy that they don’t have to go through what we had to go through. The amount speed and, like, they make friends with, they’re just-

Sydney Smith (26:43):

Mm-hmm, yes.

Cate Pitterle (26:43):

Definitely.

Badr Merdassi (26:43):

… thriving and doing amazing things that we were only able to do, what, maybe even spring semester of sophomore year, just because we needed to settle in back in this campus.

Cate Pitterle (26:50):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:50):

Yeah, yeah.

Cate Pitterle (26:53):

Do you know what’s horrible? Do you remember the t-shirts they created for each residence hall-

Sydney Smith (26:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:58):

This past fall?

Cate Pitterle (26:58):

… on South Campus?

Badr Merdassi (26:58):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (26:58):

Such cute t-shirts. I, to your point about jealousy, I remember I saw the t-shirts for the first time, and I was just so jealous-

Badr Merdassi (27:05):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (27:06):

… that these freshmen were getting these t-shirts they would probably only wear for two weeks, because then it would be uncool. And then I realized a lot of it was also just because I didn’t have a connection to South Campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:14):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (27:15):

Like, I walk around S- South Campus-

Badr Merdassi (27:16):

No.

Cate Pitterle (27:16):

… I still don’t always know where I’m going.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:18):

Yeah, ’cause you were never there.

Cate Pitterle (27:18):

I was never there.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

Well, and we’ve said, it’s funny y’all mention the t-shirts, because that started this past fall, and it’s the first years, just everything’s new when you’re a first year. So, “This is how Wake Forest has always been,” you know (laughs)?

(27:29):

And I remember seeing second years this past fall, they were like, “Wait, where’s my t-shirt?” Or, you know-

Cate Pitterle (27:33):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:34):

… y’all are mentioning this as seniors, so, uh, it is interesting. And even just this conversation, I hope the first years can listen, because it’s also, I would imagine, there’s great value now in the bright spots, that it is more colorful, that Wake Forest that you knew has emerged, um, in your experience.

(27:51):

So I am curious, this first year, probably year and a half, really challenging from an aspect of, “I’m a first year student, I’m making meaning of what it means to be a college student. I’m really far from home,” in some cases, “Making sense of a global pandemic in my own health, or the health of my friends.”

(28:07):

So at what point did Wake Forest start to feel like home? Or you started to see that actual sunlight? I joined you the spring of your sophomore year, and I remember, just getting back to what Badr said, that Cate and I were talking, and I was just getting connected with students as a new vice-president. And she’s like, “Dr. Shea, we do not know how to college.”

Cate Pitterle (28:30):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (28:30):

And (laughs) so that is actually how the, the panel emerged, is, like, “How do we help students to re-socialize with the college experience?” And I’m digressing a little bit, but I think the question I would love to know is, when did you start to turn the corner from this really dark, bleak time to, “Okay, this place is starting to feel like home, I’m starting to feel connected, starting to feel like I belong”?

Sydney Smith (28:53):

First I will say, as a tour guide I, you tend to, um, finish my tours talking about this point. But, you know, I always say, “I got here in 2020. Oh, poor me, miniature violin.”

Shea Kidd Brown (29:02):

(laughs).

Sydney Smith (29:03):

And all the parents and students they say, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” I say, “No, it’s okay.” I say, “When you’re touring schools and touring colleges, specifically now at Wake, some of your are here right now as juniors and seniors in high school. And you’re so excited because you’re on this campus, and you feel like, ‘This is it, this is the one for me.’ And you know it.”

(29:18):

I have friends who are on the dance team, and the cheer team especially, who grew up in North Carolina. And they’re like, “Wake has always been for me, and I’ve know it.”

(29:25):

Personally, when I toured, I loved it. But I didn’t know that.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:28):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (29:28):

I was impressed, but I wasn’t, like, “Let me early action, early decision,” that just wasn’t really a part of my being, I suppose.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (29:35):

And so I always finish my tours by saying, “And it’s really important and nice that you might feel that way now, for this school or any other school. But what’s more important in my opinion is to make sure that feels like home after all of, like, the glistening glamour sort of dies down.”

(29:47):

And for me, I really like Wake Forest because it was easy to make it feel like home once I got here, even in the midst of COVID.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:53):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (29:54):

When I was a freshman I got back late one night from cheer practice, a hard practice with a lot of running (laughs), that I wasn’t expecting. And my friends on, you know, Babcock basement floor, they knew that I had a rough practice that night, ’cause one of the dancing girls, who’s still my friend ’til today, came back and told them earlier.

(30:10):

They went out to the P.O.D by Subway and they got me, like, a Twix bar and a KitKat, and, like, wrote me a little note, and they were like, “Go to bed early, like, we love you.” And it was the people.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:19):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (30:19):

Only a couple of months in, even during COVID, that was a real-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:21):

So that was your first year?

Sydney Smith (30:22):

Yes. And that, they made it feel like home.

(30:24):

On the flip side, because COVID was still going on, I’ll say probably when you got here, the spring of my sophomore year was when COVID out of the way, that’s when it started to-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:33):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (30:33):

… feel like home, because I was realizing that now I was part of all these different leadership organizations, I could do all these different things on campus. Felt like home when I felt upset because I had to choose between being able to different things.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:46):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (30:46):

‘Cause when you were a freshman during COVID, it was like, “Oh, well, I’m just grasping at straws to do one thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:50):

Right.

Sydney Smith (30:51):

‘Cause you could only do so much with COVID restrictions, when I was an RA, and also a cheerleader. Maybe even during the fall of our sophomore year when I was seeing how the freshmen were welcomed into the dorm, and I couldn’t be a cheerleader outside welcoming them in with pompoms, but I could be an RA sitting there at the desk.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:05):

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Smith (31:06):

I was like, “Wow,” like, “I’m happy now, because I get a chance to have to choose.”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:09):

Right.

Sydney Smith (31:09):

Like, a choice, in my opinion, was like a privilege.

Sean Brady (31:11):

I think for me it was similar to you, it was certainly maybe the end of my sophomore year that I finally felt connected. And I think for me my biggest issue was, is I’m kind of the person, like I think a lot of us are, like as soon as you do something you wanna buy-in, right? You wanna commit to it, you, you know, we’re not doing things kind of partially or anything like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:28):

Right.

Sean Brady (31:29):

And for me, I knew what I wanted was there, ’cause that’s why I chose the place. But up until then everything felt surface level, right? It felt like every kind of interaction I had with people was very surface level.

Sydney Smith (31:40):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (31:40):

And not because of anything, like, wrong between that, just like maybe our schedules were off, or, you know, where I was living in Babcock maybe there’s only a couple people around me. Sort of knew each other, but not really that well.

(31:51):

And so everything was like I could go out and be able to, like, say hi to somebody as I was walking to class, or to the Pit or something like that, but were they my true friend, or something like that. And that’s kind of what I felt like I was missing, was like organizations to belong to, and kind of that group of people-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:04):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (32:04):

… that you call.

(32:05):

I remember still to this day, it’s the greatest thing I, I did not end up doing. But I remember, like, early on in my sophomore fall, like, there was a period of probably about two weeks that, like, I was thinking like, “Maybe this is not the school for me.”

(32:15):

And I think it was ’cause I kind of knew there was something else out there at Wake that I was waiting to find. And I’m very thankful that that did come across, you know, my sophomore spring, ’cause that’s what kept me here. And then I was able to go abroad in the junior fall-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:28):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (32:29):

… and I felt like all I kept doing was building friendships.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:32):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (32:32):

And now here I am getting ready to graduate, I have the greatest group of friends I could’ve ever asked for. You know, people that I hope to know forever-

Cate Pitterle (32:40):

That’s really sweet.

Sean Brady (32:41):

And, like, it’s one of those ones similar to what you were saying-

Sydney Smith (32:42):

Yeah.

Sean Brady (32:42):

… which is, like, I think what makes me realize Wake is home in that sense is that I can take it away from the campus as well.

Sydney Smith (32:47):

Mm-hmm.

Sean Brady (32:48):

So these are people I like to go on trips with, or go to a concert with, or go do fun things if we’re all in the same area over the summer, stuff like that. I feel like Wake Forest can go on the road with me now, which makes me realize this is where I was supposed to be.

Sydney Smith (33:00):

Love that.

Cate Pitterle (33:01):

That’s, like, actually just a really nice thought, ’cause I was thinking about that the other day with, “How am I gonna keep in tough with all of my friends? We’re all moving to different cities.” But, like, finding home in community…

(33:09):

And I know, just to go back to your original question, you talked about turning the corner. And I was kind of thinking about this question, and I didn’t really know how to approach it, because I don’t ever think I turned a corner. I think the process of Wake Forest becoming home to me was very gradual, I don’t remember a specific moment-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:24):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (33:25):

… where I thought like, “Okay, this is home now.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:26):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (33:27):

Or, like, I… Or a moment where I felt like I, it wasn’t home but then suddenly it was. I think it was always kind of it started at a point and then it just progressed. Until one day I was just talking to my mom and I was home for the weekend-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:39):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (33:39):

… or something like that, and I said, “All right, I’m gonna drive home now.” And then-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:42):

Ooh (laughs).

Cate Pitterle (33:42):

And, oh.

Sydney Smith (33:42):

Yeah (laughs).

Cate Pitterle (33:44):

I do, I do actually remember… I don’t remember when that was, but I do remember for the first time I said that. And mom was like, “You’re driving home?” And I was like, “Oh, back to Wake.” Like (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:51):

(laughs).

Cate Pitterle (33:52):

Like, “This is home, but, like, also that’s home.” And I, I just kind of got to a point where I felt like I had two homes.

Sydney Smith (33:58):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (33:58):

And I think my sense of home has really evolved and changed, just how I define the word, since I’ve been at Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (34:03):

Because I went abroad and for a while the Worrell House was home.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:06):

Mm-hmm.

Cate Pitterle (34:07):

And I interned in DC for two summers, and I actually lived in the same building both summers, so for periods of time the Wake Forest, Wake Washington housing was home.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:14):

Right.

Cate Pitterle (34:15):

And I think I’ve just allowed myself, having lived in the same town my entire life, to create home in different places, and to allow myself to feel settled into a place, and allow myself to call that place home even if it’s only temporary.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:27):

Yeah.

Cate Pitterle (34:28):

And Wake is only four years, it is temporary-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:30):

Right (laughs).

Cate Pitterle (34:30):

… as we’re all very, very aware right now.

(34:32):

But I don’t think it was ever turning a corner at a certain point, I came here and it was always home, but it just started evolving into more of home.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:40):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, more comfort making-

Cate Pitterle (34:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:41):

… with home?

(34:41):

And that’s, the way you described it, is also, Sean, you were saying you can take home with you (laughs) now.

Cate Pitterle (34:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:47):

So you’ve done that internationally in another city, so that’s great.

Badr Merdassi (34:50):

The concept of home is really interesting and very t- something I’ve… I wouldn’t say struggled with, because that’s a negative connotation, which in this case doesn’t at all. But as an international student, this isn’t just another place, this is another country-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:06):

Right.

Badr Merdassi (35:06):

… another state, another culture, just everything that’s different.

(35:10):

And one can say that that’s a lot harder to make it home, but for the first day I wanted to have it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:17):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (35:18):

I was like, “I’m gonna make this place my home.”

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (35:22):

“It’s not gonna come to me, I’m gonna make it.” And it was really hard to do that spring semester of freshman year, but I, you know, discovered so many people.

(35:31):

And then I realized that it’s not much the geographical place that make it home, ’cause you know, you can recreate Wake probably somewhere else than in Winston-Salem, but if you take the people that make Wake-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:43):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (35:44):

… it’s not gonna be Wake Forest. You can name it something else, in a way.

(35:48):

And a lot of things happened summer going into sophomore year, but the first day of sophomore year, getting back onto this campus, I’ll never forget the feelings that I had. And it was, “This is it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (36:02):

(laughs).

Badr Merdassi (36:03):

“This is home. This is where I feel, you know, not just safe, but this is where I feel like I belong.” And, and it just made so much sense sophomore year. I call sophomore year my actual freshman year.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:15):

(laughs).

Sydney Smith (36:15):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (36:16):

I would say really the first day of sophomore year. But the settling part, the part where I’m like, “I’ve got it,” quote unquote, “… all covered, I know what I’m doing,” was probably junior year.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:28):

Yeah.

Sydney Smith (36:28):

Mm-hmm.

Badr Merdassi (36:29):

And that might sound late, but I guess for me, or for our class, junior year I was like, “Yeah, I mean, I know this place very well now. I’m well established, and I’ve got it.”

(36:40):

It’s a tricky answer, but, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:42):

Yeah.

Badr Merdassi (36:42):

But, yeah, it’s a great question.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:43):

By the head nods, I don’t think it’s an odd response. I think, you know, referencing Cate said, “Dr. Shea, we don’t know how to college,” it was because your first year you didn’t have the, the orientation experience at all, so this whole onboarding that we take great pride in from a first year standpoint.

(36:59):

Your second year you were no longer a first year, so you didn’t get that onboarding (laughs) your second year. And then for third year, and y’all didn’t go into this, but third year many of you were heading abroad. So it was like you were much more comfortable, and you were doing this different experience. And so it’s really, like, a year and a half that you’ve had what might have felt like what you expected in a college experience.

(37:25):

Wow, what a great start to our conversation with these seniors. From their transition to Wake Forest in the height of a global pandemic, to finding their people and finally being able to call Wake Forest home, they truly have shared so many memories and stories, and tidbits of wisdom.

(37:44):

Tune in next week to hear the second part of my conversation with Cate, Sydney, Badr and Sean, where we move beyond the pandemic years and start shedding some light on the rest of their college experiences here at Wake. From successes to lessons learned, to looking forward to life after Wake Forest.

(38:02):

Thank you for listening and for hearing these students’ stories of resilience, and community, and hope, and home. We all have stories to share of perseverance and trying, I kid you not. So keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (38:20):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta, in association with the university’s Campus Life team.

(38:27):

For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kid You Not.

Episode 14: Miss Sonny Davis

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with one of the most recognizable staff members from The Pit, Miss Sonny Davis. You’ll hear about what brought our guest to Wake, what drives her to keep going every day, why greeting students is so important to her, how she keeps track of students’ names, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:04):

Hey! It’s Dr. Shea, and today I have the pleasure of talking with Ms. Sonny Davis. Most people just know her as Ms. Sonny. Born in North Carolina, Sonny has lived in both Pennsylvania and North Carolina, and before joining Wake Forest, she worked downtown at the Piedmont Club. For nearly seven years, Ms. Sonny has brought the sunshine to our students and everyone who has come in contact with her. Truly, her name says it all. She first began her career at Wake in The Magnolia Room, then later moved to the Pit. And if you’ve dined in the Pit, then you’ve likely been welcomed by her most amazing smile, style, and presence. I am so delighted to talk with her today. So, how you doing?

Sonny Davis (00:52):

I’m doing pretty good.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:52):

Good.

Sonny Davis (00:53):

No complaints.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:54):

So, hey.

Sonny Davis (00:54):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (00:54):

You gotta, you gotta greet me like you just-

Sonny Davis (00:56):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (00:56):

… greeted me. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (00:56):

(laughs) Hello, Dr. Shea! How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (00:56):

Ms. Sonny, I’m good.

Sonny Davis (01:00):

This is such a pleasure.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:02):

It’s such a pleasure just-

Sonny Davis (01:03):

Oh, I’m-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:03):

… to see you.

Sonny Davis (01:04):

… so nervous.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:05):

Hey, don’t be nervous.

Sonny Davis (01:06):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:07):

Hey, secret, I’m nervous, too.

Sonny Davis (01:09):

Are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:09):

Yes.

Sonny Davis (01:10):

You’re amazing.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

No! You are amazing. That’s-

Sonny Davis (01:12):

Mm-hmm. I’ve been watching clips of you.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:13):

Oh.

Sonny Davis (01:14):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:15):

Well-

Sonny Davis (01:15):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:15):

I hear about you all the time through our students.

Sonny Davis (01:19):

How is that possible?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:20):

Because you bring the sunshine.

Sonny Davis (01:22):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:22):

Seriously.

Sonny Davis (01:22):

Do I really?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

Yes, because I’m fairly new here. You know that, right?

Sonny Davis (01:27):

No.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:27):

I’ve only been here two years. And so- Yes. (laughs) Y’all can’t see her face, but (laughs) she’s-

Sonny Davis (01:34):

Oh my God.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:34):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (01:34):

That’s … Well, that’s pretty awesome, ’cause you’re well-talked-about.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:36):

Well … Oh!

Sonny Davis (01:36):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:37):

And as are you.

Sonny Davis (01:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:38):

So seriously, when I launched the podcast, I was talking to students.

Sonny Davis (01:41):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

Like, “Who do I need to bring?” They’re like, “Ms. Sonny! You have to bring Ms. S-

Sonny Davis (01:45):

Wow.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:45):

I promise.

Sonny Davis (01:45):

Things like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

I promise. And I have eaten in the Pit, you’ve seen me in the Pit.

Sonny Davis (01:49):

Yes, yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:51):

And you just exude this joy-

Sonny Davis (01:53):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:54):

… and just a great personality. So I’m just so glad you’re here today.

Sonny Davis (01:57):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:58):

There’s nothing to be nervous about.

Sonny Davis (01:59):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:59):

First of all, your name.

Sonny Davis (02:00):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:01):

It’s Sonny, S-O, right-

Sonny Davis (02:03):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

… N-N-Y.

Sonny Davis (02:03):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

And I think about S-U-

Sonny Davis (02:03):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

… N.

Sonny Davis (02:07):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:08):

I think about the sunshine. Like, that’s what I said in this, in your intro. But, I always start podcasts as I get to know people with this-

Sonny Davis (02:15):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:15):

… idea of home.

Sonny Davis (02:16):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:16):

So, where’s home for you?

Sonny Davis (02:18):

Well, it’s here, but I’ve lived in Pennsylvania.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:20):

What part of Pennsylvania?

Sonny Davis (02:21):

Reading.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

Reading.

Sonny Davis (02:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

Was it too cold or you just-

Sonny Davis (02:21):

Philadelphia. No.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

… did you … You just decided to come back home?

Sonny Davis (02:26):

I loved it.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:26):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:26):

No. I loved it, it’s just, I don’t know, my grandparents was here.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:31):

My father was here. So I was-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:32):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:32):

My sister moved back here, so I went following behind her.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:35):

Yeah! It’s like-

Sonny Davis (02:36):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:36):

… family.

Sonny Davis (02:36):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:37):

It’s important, that they-

Sonny Davis (02:38):

So that brought me here.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:39):

Yes.

Sonny Davis (02:39):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:39):

So, and I always ask the question where is home for you? Because you get to include North Carolina-

Sonny Davis (02:44):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

… and Pennsylvania-

Sonny Davis (02:45):

This is home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

… and any … This is home?

Sonny Davis (02:47):

This is home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:48):

This is home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

You lived there, but this-

Sonny Davis (02:50):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:50):

… is home.

Sonny Davis (02:50):

This is home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:50):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:51):

(laughs) Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

In Winston?

Sonny Davis (02:52):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (02:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

So, the second part of that question is, what does home mean to you?

Sonny Davis (02:57):

Family, friendships.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (02:59):

Just friendly faces and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (03:00):

… you know, hospitality.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:01):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (03:02):

And that’s what Winston is for me-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:03):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (03:03):

… it’s hospitality.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:04):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (03:04):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:04):

I agree.

Sonny Davis (03:05):

I love it. It sticks with me. I worked at the Piedmont Club, so I was there for-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (03:09):

… 18 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Okay. Yeah.

Sonny Davis (03:10):

That’s where it all began for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:12):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (03:12):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:13):

And then you came to Wake seven years ago.

Sonny Davis (03:14):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Right?

Sonny Davis (03:15):

Yes, ma’am.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:16):

Okay. Well, and we’re gonna dig into that in-

Sonny Davis (03:17):

Oh, boy.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

… a little bit.

Sonny Davis (03:17):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:18):

A little bit.

Sonny Davis (03:19):

(laughing)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

But I want to know, so you talk about home is, is family.

Sonny Davis (03:23):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

It’s comfort.

Sonny Davis (03:25):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

It’s smiling faces. And-

Sonny Davis (03:26):

Food.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:27):

Food. Yes.

Sonny Davis (03:28):

I love to cook.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:29):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (03:29):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

Tell me more. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (03:30):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:31):

What do you like to cook?

Sonny Davis (03:32):

Everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (03:33):

I do Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Father’s Day, and Fourth of July for my family-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Ooh.

Sonny Davis (03:38):

… every year. Every year.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:39):

Is there a set menu?

Sonny Davis (03:40):

Yeah, pretty much.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (03:42):

You know? Our Father’s Day is always fried fish, fried chicken.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (03:44):

… or ribs, what the fathers love the most.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:46):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (03:46):

So I do a lot of that for them. ‘Cause they don’t get their opportunity.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Ooh.

Sonny Davis (03:50):

So they get to set out in the yard, play their little cards.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:52):

I love that.

Sonny Davis (03:52):

And, you know, and play dominoes and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

And let people take care of them.

Sonny Davis (03:56):

Yes. And we take care of them.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:59):

So what’s your-

Sonny Davis (03:59):

They deserve that.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:59):

What’s your favorite thing you like to cook?

Sonny Davis (04:02):

I guess I would say, uh, potato salad, baked beans is one.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:04):

Now is your potato salad mustard or mayonnaise based?

Sonny Davis (04:06):

Both.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Ooh.

Sonny Davis (04:07):

I use both.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:08):

Is that a secret?

Sonny Davis (04:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

Not a secret anymore!

Sonny Davis (04:14):

No, it’s not. (laughs) I use both. But, that’s what I … Coleslaw is one of my-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:16):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (04:16):

… big things, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (04:17):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (04:17):

And I like to do, I do it in bulk, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:19):

Of course.

Sonny Davis (04:20):

… for them, you know, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

For the whole family.

Sonny Davis (04:20):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

Now what proteins?

Sonny Davis (04:23):

Deep-fried fish. I have two f- I have a fish fryer and a chicken fryer.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:26):

Speaking of which.

Sonny Davis (04:27):

And I have a grill on the side of me and I barbecue the ribs.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:30):

If y’all could see, she’s, like, motioning-

Sonny Davis (04:32):

Yes. I have it-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:33):

… all-

Sonny Davis (04:33):

Yes. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:33):

… they’re all- There are all, the things (laughs) are laying out.

Sonny Davis (04:34):

I’m blocked in from all this-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Right.

Sonny Davis (04:36):

… and I’m-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (04:36):

… just going at it, and they’re just-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:37):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (04:38):

They’re all surprised that I do this.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (04:40):

And, and then my uncles and everybody come down from Pennsylvania.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:41):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (04:43):

And I cook for them around Fourth of July, every year.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Oh, that’s amazing. It’s funny, as you were talking about your fish and chicken in different pots.

Sonny Davis (04:49):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

And my husband’s from Baton Rouge.

Sonny Davis (04:51):

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:52):

Exactly. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (04:53):

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:53):

So-

Sonny Davis (04:54):

He know some stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:54):

He knows some stuff!

Sonny Davis (04:55):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:56):

In fact, when we moved here, we had a team that was helping us move and they said-

Sonny Davis (05:00):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

“Excuse me? Mr. Brown, are you a chef?” (laughs)

Sonny Davis (05:02):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:03):

And he said, “No. Why are you asking me that?” And they were like, “You got all these pots!”

Sonny Davis (05:07):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

(laughs) “what are you gonna do with all these pots?”

Sonny Davis (05:07):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:09):

They’re propane, we got our-

Sonny Davis (05:11):

Everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

… crawfish pot, you got-

Sonny Davis (05:12):

Oh, my.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:12):

We do catfish.

Sonny Davis (05:13):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

‘Cause I’m from Mississippi.

Sonny Davis (05:15):

You got to have catfish.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

So, gotta get-

Sonny Davis (05:15):

Oh, my.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

… have a catfish pot. And we don’t fry it in- inside, everything is fried outside.

Sonny Davis (05:19):

Everything’s fried outside. That’s my son.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:21):

And then … And then he’s got his pots for-

Sonny Davis (05:22):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

… jambalaya, gumbo, all those kinds of things.

Sonny Davis (05:25):

Oh, boy.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

So we can have a time.

Sonny Davis (05:27):

We can have a great time.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (05:29):

We could. We’ll-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (05:29):

… have to plan that.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

I mean it. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (05:29):

I’m serious.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

I mean it.

Sonny Davis (05:29):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:34):

I am, too. So I know family is important to you.

Sonny Davis (05:35):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:36):

And I heard you have a new grandbaby.

Sonny Davis (05:38):

I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Tell me about your grandbaby.

Sonny Davis (05:40):

Oh, his name is Kairee.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

Aw.

Sonny Davis (05:42):

He was a little early.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (05:43):

He stayed in the hospital for about a m- three weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (05:46):

And, uh, he got his weight up, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:47):

Oh.

Sonny Davis (05:48):

He’s home. I just-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

How old is he now?

Sonny Davis (05:50):

He’s two months.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:51):

Oh my gosh. So he’s really young.

Sonny Davis (05:53):

He’s really young, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:53):

Oh my gosh.

Sonny Davis (05:55):

He’s amazing. Oh my God.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

Yes.

Sonny Davis (05:57):

Just to look in his face and he just … He’s making goo-goo noises, now.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:59):

Oh. Now-

Sonny Davis (06:01):

I’m like … I’m like, “You’re moving a little fast.”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:02):

Yes. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (06:02):

“Slow down.”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:02):

Exactly.

Sonny Davis (06:02):

Just-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:02):

It happens-

Sonny Davis (06:02):

… he just-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:02):

… so fast.

Sonny Davis (06:05):

Oh my God. They’re coming out, walking. They-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

Yes. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (06:09):

… do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

It’s like there’s something in the water.

Sonny Davis (06:09):

There’s something in the water. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:11):

So what is he gonna call you?

Sonny Davis (06:12):

He’s gonna call me Nana.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:13):

Oh, that’s my mom’s name.

Sonny Davis (06:14):

He’s gonna call me Nana, ’cause-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:15):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (06:15):

… my granddaughter, she calls me Nana.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:17):

Oh, I love that.

Sonny Davis (06:18):

And she’s six.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:19):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (06:20):

Who’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:20):

My mom was Nana. I have Nana and Pops.

Sonny Davis (06:22):

So I got their room together in there.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:24):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (06:24):

So he got his-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:25):

How far apart are they?

Sonny Davis (06:26):

He’s two months.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:26):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (06:27):

And she’s six years old.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

Oh, six.

Sonny Davis (06:28):

But then-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

You just said that.

Sonny Davis (06:28):

But they’re different sons, different sons got these babies.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:30):

Oh. But you-

Sonny Davis (06:30):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:30):

… have rooms for them.

Sonny Davis (06:33):

Yes. I got it ready already. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:35):

Now, my mom says, “Gr-being a grandmother is grand- “

Sonny Davis (06:47):

It is. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

… because I can have this room.

Sonny Davis (06:47):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

And then I can say-

Sonny Davis (06:47):

I can say, “Yeah.”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (06:47):

Yeah. Mm-hmm. ‘Cau-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

That was fun. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (06:47):

Then, “goodbye.”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

“See you later.” (laughs)

Sonny Davis (06:47):

(laughs) If I want to change it, I can change it.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

That’s right.

Sonny Davis (06:47):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

That’s right.

Sonny Davis (06:48):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:48):

Well, so I started off the podcast by saying your reputation, you know? Like-

Sonny Davis (06:54):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

Students love you.

Sonny Davis (06:55):

Ah-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

S-

Sonny Davis (06:55):

I love them.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:56):

Well, I know that.

Sonny Davis (06:57):

This place is d- Oh, I don’t know what I’ve been doing all these years-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:00):

Aw.

Sonny Davis (07:00):

… without them.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Aw.

Sonny Davis (07:02):

And each year it gets better.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Yeah?

Sonny Davis (07:03):

I couldn’t imagine anything else.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

Really?

Sonny Davis (07:06):

Just seeing their faces, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:07):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (07:08):

The breaks are too long. I have it rough because I look forward to seeing them every day.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

Uh-huh.

Sonny Davis (07:12):

So when they get a break, I be … They don’t realize, I be really sad, for real.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Oh.

Sonny Davis (07:15):

It’s not for … It’s not play.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:16):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (07:16):

And my family, I just talk so wholly they be like-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:18):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (07:19):

“Let me go back the work. I be glad when you go back to work.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

Right.

Sonny Davis (07:21):

You know what I mean? ‘Cause I just-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

So you see your students.

Sonny Davis (07:23):

I just wanna see my babies.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:23):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (07:24):

He, “You don’t love us no more. It’s all about your babies.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

Right.

Sonny Davis (07:26):

“All y’all my babies. But- “

Shea Kidd Brown (07:28):

That’s right.

Sonny Davis (07:28):

“These are my babies.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

So tell me about that journey to Wake Forest. How did you decide-

Sonny Davis (07:33):

Oh my God.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:33):

… to come here?

Sonny Davis (07:34):

I left Piedmont Club, and I was-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (07:36):

… just sitting at home. It w- I was in my second month.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (07:39):

My first week of the second month of being outta work.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (07:42):

‘Cause we closed down.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:43):

Oh, okay.

Sonny Davis (07:44):

And I was just sitting. And I was like … And I seen they had a job fair come up.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (07:47):

And I kept debating. And I’m like, “I remember I tried to get in there a long, long time ago.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:51):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (07:52):

But they were full. They had no openings.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:54):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (07:54):

‘Cause everybody was wanting to work here.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:55):

Right.

Sonny Davis (07:56):

So that’s how I wound up. But I waited, and my t- and my time, I was like, “I’m going to the job fair.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

Your time came. Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (08:01):

The time I walked in that Coliseum, saying-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

(laughs) You were at the Joel?

Sonny Davis (08:05):

… I ran … y- Yeah. I ro- I walked into the Coliseum and I ran into Ms. Danny-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:10):

Uh-huh.

Sonny Davis (08:10):

… and Ms. Jessica. And they, and they … And I told them who I was, and what had going. And it was like immediately, right-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:15):

Hired on the spot.

Sonny Davis (08:16):

“Grab her.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:16):

Oh my God. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (08:17):

“She … Don’t let her go nowhere.” And they sent me to get my urine test, and they hired me-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:21):

Oh-

Sonny Davis (08:21):

… on the spot.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:22):

… my goodness.

Sonny Davis (08:23):

And I’ve been here ever since.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:24):

Oh.

Sonny Davis (08:25):

And I started here on my mother’s birthday, which is July 25th.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:27):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (08:28):

That’s the day she was born. It’s the day she passed.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:28):

Really?

Sonny Davis (08:31):

Yes. It’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:31):

What a-

Sonny Davis (08:31):

it’s an amazing day.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:32):

… special day.

Sonny Davis (08:32):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:33):

Wow. Wow.

Sonny Davis (08:33):

It is very special to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (08:34):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

And so I-

Sonny Davis (08:36):

It just was meant to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:37):

It was meant to be.

Sonny Davis (08:37):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:37):

Well, we are better because of it.

Sonny Davis (08:38):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

So you s- So you say you’re sad when the students leave.

Sonny Davis (08:46):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:46):

So tell me some of the things that you miss, some of the things you learned from them?

Sonny Davis (08:48):

The, “Good morning, Sonny’s,” the … I don’t know. It’s just it’s a feeling.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:52):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (08:52):

You know what I mean?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:53):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (08:53):

And it’s not all the same.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

Right.

Sonny Davis (08:54):

But they’re all great.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (08:54):

You know what I mean?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (08:58):

You know, just the, “Good morning, Sonny.” Just the smile.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:59):

Right.

Sonny Davis (09:00):

Even t- some of the international students-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:01):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (09:02):

… they just … I can’t pronounce with all their names.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:03):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (09:04):

So they are sweethearts. They’re sweet as can be-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

Right. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (09:04):

… to me, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

Right. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (09:06):

And, and they appreciate that.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:08):

Absolutely.

Sonny Davis (09:08):

You know? Instead of me saying y-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

And personalize.

Sonny Davis (09:10):

Yes. And they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:11):

… our … These kids are our future.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:14):

Mm-hmm. I hear you have a way, uh, for keeping names.

Sonny Davis (09:16):

Oh, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:16):

This true?

Sonny Davis (09:17):

I like to jot ’em down in this little book I have.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

Yeah?

Sonny Davis (09:19):

(laughs) I got all the football players-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:21):

Oh my gosh.

Sonny Davis (09:22):

… in one … in one area of the (laughs) book, then I got-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:23):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (09:24):

… the baseball players here-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Right.

Sonny Davis (09:26):

… the soccer players-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Oh my gosh.

Sonny Davis (09:27):

… and then all my students are like mixed in all of this.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:29):

Uh-huh.

Sonny Davis (09:29):

So I have to keep flipping sometimes-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:30):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (09:31):

… just to get my memory back.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:33):

You know what I mean?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Yeah. It’s a lot-

Sonny Davis (09:33):

When we’re out on-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

… to remember.

Sonny Davis (09:33):

… when we’re out on break.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Right.

Sonny Davis (09:36):

So I have to get all this back, ’cause I don’t want them to think I forgot them.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:38):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:39):

So I have to see them for the first couple days. And I’m gradually pulling names-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:42):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:43):

… off my top of my head.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:49):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:49):

I don’t even have time to look at the book.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:49):

Right.

Sonny Davis (09:49):

‘Cause I know these kids.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:49):

Of course.

Sonny Davis (09:50):

I know these-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:50):

You know their-

Sonny Davis (09:50):

… names.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:50):

… faces. Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:50):

So it just come to me like this.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:50):

I love that.

Sonny Davis (09:50):

That’s so ra- And they smile, like, “Wow, Ms. Sonny remember my name.” You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:54):

That’s great.

Sonny Davis (09:54):

It s- makes me smile, that they know I’m Ms. Sonny.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:56):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (09:57):

You know what I’m saying? So it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:58):

Oh, they all-

Sonny Davis (09:58):

… a great-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:58):

… know. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (10:00):

It’s a great feeling-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

It is.

Sonny Davis (10:01):

… seeing these kids. If, if something’s wrong, it’s almost like I can sense it.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:05):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (10:05):

You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (10:05):

That’s what I was gonna ask you. So you know how I was asking you about home?

Sonny Davis (10:08):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:08):

How do you create a home for these students? ‘Cause you just mentioned, like, learning their names, and all those kinds of things. But what are thinks that you do to make sure they feel comfortable here?

Sonny Davis (10:17):

That, “Good morning. How’s your day?” Or, “Have a beautiful afternoon. I’ll see you at lunch.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (10:22):

“Is everything going well? How’s Mom and Dad?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:26):

Aw.

Sonny Davis (10:26):

You know? “Do you have- “

Shea Kidd Brown (10:26):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (10:26):

” … any siblings?” Or-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (10:28):

“Let me see you. Do you have a dog? Let me see your dog.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

“Let me see your picture.”

Sonny Davis (10:30):

You know? “Let me see a picture of your dog.” You know? Those are important.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:32):

They are.

Sonny Davis (10:33):

‘Cause they’re their babies. You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (10:33):

That’s right.

Sonny Davis (10:34):

They got pups they left at home, they’re sad. They miss their pups.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:37):

Mm-hmm. It’s very true.

Sonny Davis (10:38):

And it’s just … Hm. I just fill up.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:40):

Yeah?

Sonny Davis (10:41):

Just them coming in doors is fill me. I don’t care how many, just keep coming.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:43):

I wish I could-

Sonny Davis (10:43):

Just keep coming.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:44):

… see my face because-

Sonny Davis (10:45):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:46):

… it is like- (laughs)

Sonny Davis (10:46):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:47):

… you’re just emanating so much-

Sonny Davis (10:50):

Uh.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:50):

… energy. And it’s funny, you know? I have a job where I work with students a lot, too.

Sonny Davis (10:55):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

And so much of what you described is so much of what I feel, too.

Sonny Davis (10:58):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

It’s like, almost can’t put it into words, their energy, their excitement to-

Sonny Davis (11:03):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:03):

… see me.

Sonny Davis (11:03):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:04):

You know? For me, they say-

Sonny Davis (11:05):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:05):

“Hi, Dr. Shea.”

Sonny Davis (11:05):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:07):

You know? And you know, we’re a better place because of them.

Sonny Davis (11:09):

Oh, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:10):

And some days they are having hard days. And you can pick up on it.

Sonny Davis (11:12):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:13):

Uh, I was in the Pit, actually, (laughs) a few weeks ago, and I said to a student, “You okay?”

Sonny Davis (11:17):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:17):

You know, just-

Sonny Davis (11:18):

You’re good. Yeah, you’re good.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

I just ask.

Sonny Davis (11:19):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:19):

And she’s like, “Well, Dr. Shea. I- “

Sonny Davis (11:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:21):

” … didn’t get a lotta sleep (laughs) last- “

Sonny Davis (11:22):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:22):

” … night.” And everything was fine.

Sonny Davis (11:24):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:24):

But she was really tired.

Sonny Davis (11:26):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:26):

And so to have people like you-

Sonny Davis (11:27):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:28):

… who notice.

Sonny Davis (11:29):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

You know?

Sonny Davis (11:29):

I insist-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:30):

That’s-

Sonny Davis (11:30):

… on them getting some hot tea, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:31):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (11:32):

… just some coffee to boost ’em up a little bit. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:34):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (11:35):

“Ms. Sonny, I’m going straight there.” And, and to, “Stop rubbing your eyes and touching the doors. I- “

Shea Kidd Brown (11:39):

Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (11:39):

Oh, that’s definitely-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:40):

“You’re gonna get something.”

Sonny Davis (11:41):

“I don’t want you to do that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:42):

Right. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (11:42):

“Now, you stop doing that.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:42):

There are these things called germs. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (11:42):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:42):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (11:45):

I keep track. I try to sanitize.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:46):

They’re everywhere. Right.

Sonny Davis (11:47):

I sanitize those doors. I sanitize the handles and-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:50):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (11:50):

… the area they lean and lay, I try to make sure that it’s safe as possible-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

Right.

Sonny Davis (11:55):

… when they enter that door.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:55):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (11:56):

You know? That goes for all of us, you know what I’m saying?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:57):

Right.

Sonny Davis (11:57):

‘Cause germs spread. It’s not intentionally happening. It’s just-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

No, it’s just-

Sonny Davis (12:01):

… what they do. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (12:03):

… hard. And exactly. So there’s one student who talked about you in a speech-

Sonny Davis (12:06):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:06):

… recently. Do you know about this?

Sonny Davis (12:08):

Oh, boy. Austin.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:10):

Yes. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (12:11):

Oh my God.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

So Austin Torain.

Sonny Davis (12:14):

Oh, he-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:14):

Tell me about that relationship.

Sonny Davis (12:16):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:16):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (12:18):

This young man is something im- He’s amazing.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:21):

He is.

Sonny Davis (12:22):

Music is-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:22):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (12:23):

… is a go-to for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:24):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (12:24):

And he won me-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:25):

Oh.

Sonny Davis (12:26):

… instantly.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:26):

Was it day one?

Sonny Davis (12:27):

Day one.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:27):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (12:28):

And that’s all it takes.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:29):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (12:30):

I think music is, is uplifting. And just-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:32):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (12:32):

… for him to go around campus, and everybody tends to fall in, now. You know? Everybody falls in.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:36):

Right. Right.

Sonny Davis (12:37):

At first it was like, “What’s- “

Shea Kidd Brown (12:38):

“What is going on?” (laughs)

Sonny Davis (12:39):

“Why is he walking around with his … Is he crazy? It’s loud in here. What are trying to … ” It all blends in.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:43):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (12:43):

You know? Just give it a chance and it all blends in.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:46):

Right.

Sonny Davis (12:46):

You could still hear each other. You could still communicate. And you got some that need that. It’s actually needed in this world-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (12:53):

… the way things-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (12:54):

… are today.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

So do you remember that day when you first heard music-

Sonny Davis (12:57):

Oh my God.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:58):

… what that was like?

Sonny Davis (12:59):

Oh, God. It was amazing. And I was like, ’cause we … They took the music outta the Pit.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Oh.

Sonny Davis (13:03):

Because everybody kept plugging their phones up.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:05):

Okay. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (13:06):

And the manager was like, “Enough of this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:07):

Okay. Yeah. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (13:09):

“Enough of this.” ‘Cause they was playing music that’s not music we should be playing.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:11):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (13:11):

“So it, it’s gotta go.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Was not the G-rated.

Sonny Davis (13:19):

“It’s gotta go.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (13:19):

So with him coming up with all those great songs, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

Well-

Sonny Davis (13:19):

Oh, my.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

A lot of it is-

Sonny Davis (13:19):

It just-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

… like Motown, and-

Sonny Davis (13:19):

It’s everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (13:20):

He, he plays it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:20):

He does.

Sonny Davis (13:21):

Country, ev- whatever.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:22):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (13:22):

Let’s get … Let’s get it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:23):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (13:24):

‘Cause I feel like I know all those songs. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:25):

Yes.

Sonny Davis (13:25):

One of them, I know all of ’em. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:25):

Right.

Sonny Davis (13:31):

And he came in, it just was like, “Oh my God.” And I was looking for the manager at first, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:32):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (13:32):

“Don’t get in trouble.” (laughs) Oh, God.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:32):

Right.

Sonny Davis (13:36):

And I looked at … We had looked at each other. I was like … she was like … it was like-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:39):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (13:40):

Okay. And I just broke out dancing.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

Right?

Sonny Davis (13:41):

And then he started dancing. It just-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:42):

I love it.

Sonny Davis (13:42):

… was like, “Oh my God.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:44):

It’s like connection.

Sonny Davis (13:44):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:47):

It’s a connection. I shared this. Austin was on the podcast last-

Sonny Davis (13:50):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:50):

… fall.

Sonny Davis (13:50):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:51):

And I shared as a new person, I was like, “I walked in the Pit, and I was like, ‘Okay.'”

Sonny Davis (13:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:55):

And then I was like, “Wait, the music moving. Where? What’s- “

Sonny Davis (13:58):

It … Yeah. It-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:58):

” … going on?” Because it’s-

Sonny Davis (13:59):

… yeah, you-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:00):

… attached to him.

Sonny Davis (14:00):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

And so, like, “I gotta know more.” And, you know-

Sonny Davis (14:04):

You know.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

Eventually I got a chance to meet him. But I want you to know-

Sonny Davis (14:07):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:07):

You were a critical part of his connection to the university.

Sonny Davis (14:11):

Well, he-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:11):

You probably feel like he has-

Sonny Davis (14:13):

No, he-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:13):

… brought connection.

Sonny Davis (14:14):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

But he talks about you.

Sonny Davis (14:16):

You serious?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:17):

I am so serious.

Sonny Davis (14:18):

He’s amazing.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:19):

So you never know your-

Sonny Davis (14:21):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:21):

… impact.

Sonny Davis (14:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:21):

And I want you-

Sonny Davis (14:22):

Oh, of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:22):

… to know that. You know? That our-

Sonny Davis (14:24):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:24):

… students look to you, and-

Sonny Davis (14:26):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:26):

… you’re such a important part of this-

Sonny Davis (14:28):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

… community.

Sonny Davis (14:30):

Thank you. That means a lot to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Well, it’s true.

Sonny Davis (14:33):

I, I (laughs) want it to be so, but it does feel hot.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:35):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (14:35):

You know? But that’s hard. You know what I mean?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:38):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (14:38):

I remember back in … When it was Thomas Hearn s- and all these guys.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (14:41):

I was at Old Town Country Club.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (14:43):

I worked over there eight years.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:44):

Really? Before Piedmont?

Sonny Davis (14:46):

And I … Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:47):

Okay.

Sonny Davis (14:47):

It’s just … Uh. I call it pride in belonging.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:50):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (14:50):

You know? Being a part-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (14:52):

… of something. So my boss always say, “You know, Sonny, you got, we gotta be on s- It’s almost time to perform. It’s time to get on stage. This is fine dining. People come in here, and they’re, they’re not coming here just to throw their money around.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:01):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (15:01):

“They’re looking for something special.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:02):

Right.

Sonny Davis (15:03):

“And we gotta give it to them.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:04):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (15:04):

So it’s always been like, “You know, we gotta get on stage.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

Yeah. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (15:07):

And that mean that- [inaudible 00:15:09]

Shea Kidd Brown (15:10):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (15:10):

Yes. (laughs) And I took heart to all of that, even with, we do with the costumes, and when we did the thing where you march around at the room behind each other, with the-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (15:18):

… cha-cha thing. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

Oh. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (15:18):

We did so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:19):

You love it.

Sonny Davis (15:19):

But Peter Grzan was a huge inspiration for me back, years ago.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:22):

Oh, really?

Sonny Davis (15:23):

Peter Grzan, he the one started the Sonny.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:25):

Really?

Sonny Davis (15:26):

He started-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:26):

So was-

Sonny Davis (15:27):

… the Sonny.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:27):

So was Peter here-

Sonny Davis (15:28):

Pe- he was at-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:28):

… at Wake, or-

Sonny Davis (15:28):

He was at the Piedmont Club.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:29):

At Piedmont, okay.

Sonny Davis (15:30):

Mm-hmm. 18 years ago.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:31):

And so tell me more about that. He started calling-

Sonny Davis (15:32):

He started-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:32):

… you something.

Sonny Davis (15:32):

… miss- Yeah, he started calling me Sonny. And his family-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:37):

Hm.

Sonny Davis (15:37):

… his kids, they went to school here.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:41):

Okay. At Wake?

Sonny Davis (15:41):

So yes. But I was n- I didn’t know-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:44):

You weren’t connected.

Sonny Davis (15:44):

… anything about … No.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:44):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (15:46):

And it’s just like I used to always say, “I’ve always wanted to work there.” You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (15:47):

“How is it?”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (15:47):

“How is the school?” You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Right.

Sonny Davis (15:47):

“How’s the kids?” You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Right.

Sonny Davis (15:54):

“Oh,” the, the people always used to say, “Oh, them some big, big brats. They this.” You … How you gonna judge somebody or judge something if you haven’t even experienced it yet?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:57):

Right.

Sonny Davis (15:58):

You know? That’s contradiction.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:58):

Right.

Sonny Davis (15:58):

I don’t like that. Don’t do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

It’s moving up close to people-

Sonny Davis (16:02):

Mm-hmm. That’s it.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:02):

… getting to know them.

Sonny Davis (16:03):

That’s it.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

Like you said, dog. We all have similar emotions.

Sonny Davis (16:09):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:09):

You know?

Sonny Davis (16:09):

They’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:09):

Similar background.

Sonny Davis (16:09):

And if they’re coming in the door, if they’re not smiling, I know it’s something.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:11):

Right.

Sonny Davis (16:12):

Because everybody comes through that door with a smile.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Right. ‘Cause they’re ready to eat.

Sonny Davis (16:14):

Yeah. They’re ready to eat.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

They’re ready to see you.

Sonny Davis (16:14):

They’re ready to eat. That’s the big thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:18):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (16:18):

You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (16:19):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (16:19):

And I … Just for me to be there, and then if I’m not there, they just be like, “Where was you yesterday, Ms. Sonny?”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

Right. “We missed- “

Sonny Davis (16:22):

“Is everything- “

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

Oh, I know.

Sonny Davis (16:22):

” … okay?”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

When you are not at that door-

Sonny Davis (16:26):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:26):

… I’m like-

Sonny Davis (16:27):

A lotta people just turn around.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:28):

“I’ll just go.” Yeah. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (16:31):

I’m- (laughs) Like, “Ms. Sonny, I didn’t come in here today ’cause you weren’t here. You didn’t tell me you weren’t coming.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:33):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (16:33):

“What?”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:33):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (16:35):

“You gotta give us your phone number. We need to know when you’re not- “

Shea Kidd Brown (16:37):

Oh, wow.

Sonny Davis (16:37):

” … gonna be here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:37):

Wow. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (16:40):

“If you’re ever gone.” D- (laughs) It’s like it took for them-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:42):

That’s serious. (laughs)

Sonny Davis (16:42):

… go like, “You serious right now?” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

My gosh. Well, that-

Sonny Davis (16:45):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

That’s love.

Sonny Davis (16:46):

It’s that-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

So where does that come from? Where does this-

Sonny Davis (16:49):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:49):

… sunny personality, this-

Sonny Davis (16:52):

It’s just, I’m a people person.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (16:54):

I love people. The big thing about it is that these are kids. I get to see it from the beginning.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:59):

You do. From move in-

Sonny Davis (17:00):

To the graduations-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:02):

Yeah.

Sonny Davis (17:03):

… and the, the going on, beginning their life, and just … Ah, it was a couple, Coleman. I’m trying to think of her name. They were students here. And they were having a big dance out there in the-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:12):

Mm-hmm.

Sonny Davis (17:13):

… up in the field over here on the other side of the Magnolia Room.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:15):

Oh. Uh-huh.

Sonny Davis (17:16):

And I convinced him to ask her out.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:19):

You did?

Sonny Davis (17:20):

‘Cause they did … they were like wanting to go but

Shea Kidd Brown (17:22):

Right?

Sonny Davis (17:22):

… did have a date.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:23):

(laughs) Right.

Sonny Davis (17:23):

I’m like, “She don’t have a date, you don’t have a date.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:23):

(laughs)

Sonny Davis (17:25):

And I think me and Maria both was working in there at that, that … at that time.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:28):

‘Cause she started the Mag Room.

Sonny Davis (17:29):

Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (17:32): Yeah. Sonny Davis (17:32): And he asked her. Is it McKenzie? Yeah. Coleman- Shea Kidd Brown (17:33): Okay. Sonny Davis (17:33): … and McKenzie. Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Okay. Sonny Davis (17:34): They got married. Shea Kidd Brown (17:35): Stop. Sonny Davis (17:36): I swear to God. Shea Kidd Brown (17:37): Oh my gosh. Sonny Davis (17:38): They sent me pictures, and- Shea Kidd Brown (17:38): Oh. Sonny Davis (17:41): Oh, it was the most amazing thing ever. Shea Kidd Brown (17:43): Right. Sonny Davis (17:44): Them coming together, and they just kept going. Shea Kidd Brown (17:46): So it’s this notion, what you’re describing was your why is really you’d be a part of creating these small moments- Sonny Davis (17:51): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:52): … that may be small moments or they may be big moments. Sonny Davis (17:55): We never know. Shea Kidd Brown (17:56): You never know. Sonny Davis (17:56): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (17:57): Huh. Sonny Davis (17:57): And some of them be d- indecisive about what should their- Shea Kidd Brown (17:59): Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (18:00): … field be. You know? Shea Kidd Brown (18:00): Right. Sonny Davis (18:00): A lot of ’em be like, “I’m indecisive, Ms. Sonny. I wanna be a doctor, internal medicine doctor.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:04): Hm. Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (18:05): “But I also wanna go and do this.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:07): Right. Sonny Davis (18:07): “How is it possible that you can?” “Uh, you could do both.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:09): That’s right. Sonny Davis (18:10): “You don’t have to decide.” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (18:14): Right. Sonny Davis (18:14): “You can have both those.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:14): Exactly. Sonny Davis (18:14): You know? Shea Kidd Brown (18:14): And this is- Sonny Davis (18:14): You- Shea Kidd Brown (18:14): … a great place to explore that. Sonny Davis (18:15): They say they wanna be a part of the actual internal medicine patient-doctor- Shea Kidd Brown (18:19): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (18:19): … relationship. But they also wanna be the doctor that does the big things as far as like orthopedics. Shea Kidd Brown (18:24): Hm. Sonny Davis (18:25): So just important things like that. Shea Kidd Brown (18:25): Right. Sonny Davis (18:25): So- Shea Kidd Brown (18:26): And the business side of it. Sonny Davis (18:27): Yeah, so- Shea Kidd Brown (18:27): Right. Sonny Davis (18:28): I mean, you could, and still have a family. Shea Kidd Brown (18:29): Hm. Right. Sonny Davis (18:30): How do you juggle that? Shea Kidd Brown (18:31): I love that they talk to you about all those life decisions. Sonny Davis (18:34): It’s a lot. Shea Kidd Brown (18:34): So you’re a part therapist, probably- Sonny Davis (18:35): Yeah. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (18:36): … part priest, a little bit of mayor.. Sonny Davis (18:38): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (18:38): (laughs) Sonny Davis (18:40): That would be my family. Shea Kidd Brown (18:41): Yes. (laughs) Sonny Davis (18:42): (laughs) I have to do this with my family. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (18:42): Have a little bit of it all, huh? Sonny Davis (18:42): My phone rings all day- Shea Kidd Brown (18:46): Day- Sonny Davis (18:47): … long. Shea Kidd Brown (18:48): So are you the counselor- Sonny Davis (18:49): Oh. Shea Kidd Brown (18:49): … the- Sonny Davis (18:49): My husband- Shea Kidd Brown (18:50): Yeah. Sonny Davis (18:50): … say, “I don’t know what I got- Shea Kidd Brown (18:50): (laughs) Sonny Davis (18:54): ” … myself into.” (laughs) everybody calls you for something, my brothers, my sisters, everybody. Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): When you and I greeted, you know, I wish we had that recorded, but- Sonny Davis (19:00): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (19:00): You have this non-judgment. It makes me a little bit teary-eyed, because- Sonny Davis (19:04): Hm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:04): It’s like I’ve had this full day. You’ve had a full day. Sonny Davis (19:07): Yes. Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (19:07): And I come out, and you’re like, “Hey!” Sonny Davis (19:08): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (19:10): You know? And it just energizes. It just changes the whole mood. So then of course people trust you. Sonny Davis (19:14): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (19:15): Look at me. I’m tearing up. Sonny Davis (19:16): I had the, uh, sleep apnea yesterday. Shea Kidd Brown (19:18): Hm. Sonny Davis (19:18): So I didn’t sleep. Shea Kidd Brown (19:19): Hm. Sonny Davis (19:20): So I haven’t had any rest. Shea Kidd Brown (19:23): Oh, gosh. Sonny Davis (19:23): But I survived it. I didn’t sleep. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (19:24): Go- Sonny Davis (19:25): I called this morning, told ’em (laughs) I completed but I didn’t remember sleeping. Shea Kidd Brown (19:30): Oh, wow. Sonny Davis (19:31): I didn’t go to sleep. My eyes were closed but my mind- Shea Kidd Brown (19:33): Hm. Sonny Davis (19:33): … was woke. I was constantly thinking of different things, and- Shea Kidd Brown (19:35): Oh my God. Sonny Davis (19:36): And it’s always that way. Shea Kidd Brown (19:37): So your mind is always going. Sonny Davis (19:38): Always going. And I’m up at 5:15. Shea Kidd Brown (19:40): Every day? Sonny Davis (19:41): Every day. Even when we was on break, I was up. Shea Kidd Brown (19:43): You were up? Sonny Davis (19:43): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:44): ‘Cause that’s your routine? Sonny Davis (19:45): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:45): Now, do you go to bed early? Sonny Davis (19:46): Hm, sometimes I do. Shea Kidd Brown (19:46): (laughs) Sonny Davis (19:46): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (19:46): ‘Cause your mind is always going. Sonny Davis (19:52): It depends. Shea Kidd Brown (19:52): Yes. Sonny Davis (19:52): It depends, you know? Shea Kidd Brown (19:52): Yeah. Sonny Davis (19:52): But it’s always going. Shea Kidd Brown (19:53): Yeah. Sonny Davis (19:53): It’s always going. Shea Kidd Brown (19:54): And you don’t know where you get that energy? Sonny Davis (19:56): I don’t know. Shea Kidd Brown (19:56): Just, you know, you’re one of these … I’ll date myself a little bit. Sonny Davis (19:59): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:59): But those battery commercials that- Sonny Davis (20:01): Yeah, (laughs) the- Shea Kidd Brown (20:02): … just … had the Energizer Bunny? Sonny Davis (20:03): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (20:03): Just keep going- Sonny Davis (20:03): Just keep going, going- Shea Kidd Brown (20:03): … going, going- ha- Sonny Davis (20:03): … going, going. Shea Kidd Brown (20:06): It sounds like you also put yourself in places that fill you up, so- Sonny Davis (20:10): I need it. Shea Kidd Brown (20:11): … students’ energy. Sonny Davis (20:11): Sometime I need that for myself. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): Yeah. Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:12): And they keep me going. They don’t know it, but they keep me going. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:12): They really do. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): They keep me- Sonny Davis (20:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): … going, too. Sonny Davis (20:12): I look forward to it, every- Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:12): … single day. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): That’s amazing. Sonny Davis (20:12): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:20): Well, I wear this bracelet that says, “Remember why you started.” Because I also- Sonny Davis (20:24): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:25): … look forward. I have people in my life- Sonny Davis (20:26): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:26): … in my college experience who spoken to me every day- Sonny Davis (20:30): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:30): … and put the Sonnys of the world, and- Sonny Davis (20:31): Oh. Shea Kidd Brown (20:32): … and, and many others. And so that’s important. Sonny Davis (20:35): One of my football players who’s online, he gave me this. I wear it every day. Shea Kidd Brown (20:39): Hm. It says- Sonny Davis (20:40): It means a lot. Shea Kidd Brown (20:40): “Protect your peace.” Sonny Davis (20:41): Yeah. It’s a, this- Shea Kidd Brown (20:41): How do you- Sonny Davis (20:41): … line. Shea Kidd Brown (20:41): Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:43): And I just love it. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:45): So how do you protect your peace? Sonny Davis (20:46): Uh, by surrounding myself with all the love- Shea Kidd Brown (20:48): Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:49): … that comes through that door down there. Shea Kidd Brown (20:50): Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:51): It means a lot. Even the faculty. Shea Kidd Brown (20:52): Yeah. Sonny Davis (20:52): Amazing. Shea Kidd Brown (20:53): They are. Sonny Davis (20:53): Amazing. Shea Kidd Brown (20:54): It’s a special community. Sonny Davis (20:55): This, this is a special, special place to be. Shea Kidd Brown (20:58): Yeah. So I have to know as we start to conclude, ’cause it’s- Sonny Davis (21:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (21:01): … going by fast. Sonny Davis (21:02): Yes, it is. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (21:02): Told you it would. Sonny Davis (21:02): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (21:03): What do you want our students to know? When you … Either when they come through the door, or I don’t know that many won’t encounter you, but as you think about them, as your mind’s racing- (laughs) Sonny Davis (21:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (21:13): What do you want them to know? Sonny Davis (21:14): Just always remember every day is not gonna be as hard, as difficult as they pers- Shea Kidd Brown (21:19): Hm. Sonny Davis (21:19): … can assume it to be. You know? Shea Kidd Brown (21:20): Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (21:21): It’s a struggle. I mean, there, they’re studying stuff I have never even experienced. Shea Kidd Brown (21:23): No. Sonny Davis (21:25): And I congratulate them in- Shea Kidd Brown (21:26): Yeah. Sonny Davis (21:26): … everything they do, in every endeavor. They … It’s hard. Shea Kidd Brown (21:29): It is. Sonny Davis (21:29): And- Shea Kidd Brown (21:30): And they’re balancing- Sonny Davis (21:31): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (21:31): … school, and relationships. Sonny Davis (21:33): And home, and- Shea Kidd Brown (21:34): Right. Sonny Davis (21:35): … friends, and- Shea Kidd Brown (21:37): Mm-hmm. And future. Sonny Davis (21:37): Yeah. Trying to belong. Shea Kidd Brown (21:39): Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (21:39): That’s the hard part- Shea Kidd Brown (21:40): It is. Sonny Davis (21:40): … trying to fit in. Shea Kidd Brown (21:41): Yeah. Sonny Davis (21:42): And I see a lot. I s- speak to a lotta students that’s kinda like sad, and- Shea Kidd Brown (21:46): Hm. Sonny Davis (21:46): … not able to fit in, you know what I mean? Shea Kidd Brown (21:48): Yeah. Sonny Davis (21:48): But like- Shea Kidd Brown (21:48): So when you see those students … I didn’t mean to cut you off. Sonny Davis (21:50): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (21:50): When you see them, what do you say? Sonny Davis (21:52): I let them know just how special they are. And, “You don’t have to fit in.” Shea Kidd Brown (21:56): That’s right. Sonny Davis (21:56): “You already in.” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (21:56): Yeah. They know. Sonny Davis (21:56): “You already in.” Shea Kidd Brown (21:57): Yeah. Sonny Davis (22:00): “You don’t have to be in that circle- ” Shea Kidd Brown (22:01): Right. Sonny Davis (22:01): ” … or that circle.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:01): Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (22:03): “Because people gonna flock to you. You just continue- ” Shea Kidd Brown (22:05): Hm. Sonny Davis (22:05): ” … being you.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:05): That’s right. Sonny Davis (22:06): “And people will flock to you. Don’t, don’t worry about being in anyone’s circle but your own.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:11): Hm. Sonny Davis (22:11): “Because eventually, somebody’s gonna step to you and say, ‘Hey, how you doing?'” You know? Shea Kidd Brown (22:16): Yeah. Yeah. Sonny Davis (22:16): “There’s a whole lot of friendliness on this campus.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:18): Yeah. Sonny Davis (22:18): You know? Shea Kidd Brown (22:18): You just have to find it. Sonny Davis (22:18): “You, you just gotta find your place, right there.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:21): And I love that, “You don’t have to fit in. You’re already in.” Sonny Davis (22:23): “You’re already in.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:24): That might be my quote of the day. (laughs) Sonny Davis (22:26): It’s, it’s really true. You know? Shea Kidd Brown (22:27): Yeah. Sonny Davis (22:27): It’s really true, you know? I was bullied. I was … I went through a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (22:29): Hm. Sonny Davis (22:29): … in school. So- Shea Kidd Brown (22:29): You get it. Sonny Davis (22:29): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (22:29): So i- d- do you reach back into s- maybe some of those past experiences- Sonny Davis (22:36): I do. Shea Kidd Brown (22:36): … so others don’t have to experience- Sonny Davis (22:37): I do. Shea Kidd Brown (22:37): … that? Sonny Davis (22:38): I do. Shea Kidd Brown (22:38): Yeah. Sonny Davis (22:39): I do. I do. I do. It’s a lot come through that door. Shea Kidd Brown (22:40): Yeah. Sonny Davis (22:41): And it’s, it’s sometime make you cry. Shea Kidd Brown (22:44): Mm-hmm. And you may be the only one who smiles. Sonny Davis (22:45): And I try not to cry. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (22:46): (laughs) Sonny Davis (22:47): Not while they’re standing there. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (22:47): No, yeah. Sonny Davis (22:49): I just kinda like turn my head and just let them- Shea Kidd Brown (22:49): Right. Sonny Davis (22:49): … know. You know? “Just always stand your ground.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:53): Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (22:53): “If you feel like you’re being bullied, don’t give into the bullying.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:56): Mm-hmm. Sonny Davis (22:56): “Don’t do it. So just don’t stand in it. Say something.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:59): That’s right. Sonny Davis (23:00): “Just say something.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:00): Ask for help. Sonny Davis (23:00): “Ask for help.” Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:02): And you being a welcome presence, I think, makes that easier- Sonny Davis (23:06): Oh. Oh. Shea Kidd Brown (23:06): … for students, too? Sonny Davis (23:06): Yeah. She’s- Shea Kidd Brown (23:06): You know? And that’s why it’s important. Sonny Davis (23:07): A few of ’em are very happy, you know? Shea Kidd Brown (23:08): Yeah. Sonny Davis (23:08): You know, even though they could be experiencing that, they find a brighter side to it. Shea Kidd Brown (23:13): Right. Sonny Davis (23:13): You know? “And if you steer clear of it long enough or don’t feed into it, it’ll go away.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:16): Hm. Yeah. Sonny Davis (23:17): “It’ll go away.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:18): You surround- Sonny Davis (23:18): “I promise.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:18): … yourself with good energy. Sonny Davis (23:19): Like I told ’em, “It’s gonna go away. You haven’t had any problems?” “No, ma’am, not this week, Ms. Sonny.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:22): (laughs) Sonny Davis (23:23): And that makes me feel good, you know? Shea Kidd Brown (23:24): Yeah. Sonny Davis (23:25): ‘Cause I, like, “Don’t feed it.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:26): That’s right. Sonny Davis (23:26): “You know? But stand your ground.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:27): Right. Sonny Davis (23:28): Just- Shea Kidd Brown (23:28): That was a complete sentence. Sonny Davis (23:28): No. It’s good. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (23:32): (laughs) That’s right. So last question- Sonny Davis (23:33): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (23:34): … is what, as you think about the future, what are you grateful for, what are you hopeful for? Sonny Davis (23:39): I’m very grateful for my family and my family here. Shea Kidd Brown (23:43): Hm. Sonny Davis (23:44): This is family for me. Shea Kidd Brown (23:45): Yeah. Sonny Davis (23:46): I’m grateful for running into Ms. Jessica, that, on that- Shea Kidd Brown (23:47): Yes. Sonny Davis (23:48): … beautiful day. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (23:48): (laughs) Sonny Davis (23:49): She’s, she’s, she’s an inspiration. She really is. She’s amazing. Shea Kidd Brown (23:52): Hm. Sonny Davis (23:53): She’s very smart. As far as the future’s concerned, I just want to watch that everybody flourish and do my part. You know? And just, (laughs) just- Shea Kidd Brown (23:59): (laughs) Sonny Davis (24:01): … be happy in it. Shea Kidd Brown (24:02): Yes. Sonny Davis (24:03): Just be happy in it. Shea Kidd Brown (24:04): Be happy in it. Sonny Davis (24:05): Be happy in it. Yep. Shea Kidd Brown (24:05): That’s good. Sonny Davis (24:05): That’s what I want. Shea Kidd Brown (24:06): Well, I am so grateful- Sonny Davis (24:07): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:08): … for our opportunity to connect. Sonny Davis (24:11): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (24:11): And just truly, you are such a delight- Sonny Davis (24:14): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:14): … and so important to this community. I hope you know that. Sonny Davis (24:16): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (24:18): I, I get to look you in the eye and tell you that. Sonny Davis (24:20): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (24:21): I don’t know how many students get to actually lock eyes with you and tell you. Sonny Davis (24:25): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:25): You see it- Sonny Davis (24:25): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (24:25): … in other ways. But you are truly part of the fiber of this place- Sonny Davis (24:33): Hm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:33): … and what makes it so special. Sonny Davis (24:33): I don’t know all (laughs) about that, but I don’t know. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (24:34): Well, you took your own advice. Sonny Davis (24:35): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (24:36): And you have created that sense of belonging for everybody- Sonny Davis (24:38): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:38): … else. So thank you. Sonny Davis (24:40): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (24:40): I appreciate you. Sonny Davis (24:41): I appreciate you as well. MaryAnna Bailey (24:43): I really hope you enjoyed that conversation. To cap things off, we decided to go to the Pit and ask some students questions about the Pit itself, and some of the folks that work there. We also got a chance to speak up with speaker kid, Austin Torain. We began by asking people how often they eat at the Pit. Austin Torain (25:00): I probably eat in the Pit three, four times a week, maybe. I really like the Pit. It’s probably one of my favorite places. I have a I Heart the Pit shirt, and I Heart the Pit socks. Riley Shanigan (25:12): Um, I don’t often eat in the Pit, but I do eat in the Pit sometimes for lunch, usually on, um, Monday, Tuesdays, and Thursdays. Abby Parr (25:22): Um, usually, twice a day. Jayne Flynn (25:24): Four to five times a week. Speaker 5 (25:26): Few times a week. I don’t eat there very often, ’cause I have apartment plan, but I’ve been there a lot in my four years here, so it’s a great place. MaryAnna Bailey (25:33): Moving on, we were curious to know what students enjoyed about the Pit. Abby Parr (25:37): I like the number of options they have, even if you can’t eat or aren’t a fan of the main thing that they make, um, there’s a lot of other options you can still get a good meal. And it’s also a nice place to meet your friends. Riley Shanigan (25:51): Some of the food can be very good. Um, I loved when they make baked potatoes. And also, the pasta station has been popping off recently. Um, ’cause they, instead of baking it they decide to like kinda mix it together. So I get that a lot, tastes very good. Yeah. Jayne Flynn (26:05): Um, I like how many options they have. The fruit is really good in the morning, breakfast is for sure the best meal of the day. Speaker 5 (26:11): I like the variety and all the options that it gives because when I’m in the mood where I don’t really know what I want, I can always find something that I enjoy there. Austin Torain (26:20): I really enjoy a lotta the workers. They honestly kinda remind me a lot of my family. They all have really good energy about them, and are really sweet and kind. MaryAnna Bailey (26:28): We then had to ask the question if people knew who Ms. Sonny was, if they had a favorite Pit worker, and how some of the staff make them feel. And here’s what they had to say. Austin Torain (26:38): I do know Ms. Sonny. She is, uh, one of my favorite Pit workers. She works at the cash register. Outside of Ms. Sonny, I also really like Ms. Harriet. She works at the little fruit stand. But honestly I could probably go on and on about the Pit workers. They’re definitely some of my favorite people on campus. And they’ve always just made me feel at home. I like that they always kinda c- have a smile on their face, and like I don’t know, they always ask me how my day is going, and I try to do the same for them, so- Riley Shanigan (27:03): Yeah, I think that she really brings a positive energy to the Pit, and I appreciate her positivity every time I walk in. Abby Parr (27:10): I love Ms. Sonny. She always makes me feel better. It makes my day when I see her in the morning, she says, “Good morning,” to me. Um, they make me feel like someone cares about me, you know? Jayne Flynn (27:20): Um, the Pit workers, they make me feel excited to be there, I guess, even if I’m eating alone. It’s nice to see someone that’s like excited to see me. Speaker 5 (27:28): She is usually there in the mornings and through lunchtime. And I really like Pit breakfast. So she’s usually the first like campus worker that I see. And she always has something funny to say, and she always greets me like right when I walk in the doors. It’s nice to have that in the mornings, when I’m tired. (laughs) She gets me going in the morning, and just makes me feel like she really cares about me, and she’s excited to see me. And she learns a lotta the kids’ names, and she asks them how they’re doing. It’s a fun community feel. Riley Shanigan (28:00): The workers are very nice. And they’re very welcoming. There’s this one guy, um, at the Southern Station station who has a beard. And he’s always like, “How you doing, girl?” And I’m like, “Yeah, he’s sup- He’s super nice.” MaryAnna Bailey (28:10): Lastly, we wanted students to share anything that they wanted to say to the workers. And here are some of their thoughts. Jayne Flynn (28:17): Uh, just thanks for all the positivity and making us delicious food. Speaker 5 (28:22): Thanks for being you and I love all the greetings, and I love the jokes, and it’s really fun. Abby Parr (28:29): I love you guys. I really love seeing you every morning. Thank you for everything that you do. Austin Torain (28:34): And, yeah, I would just wanna let them know that they’re appreciated. Shea Kidd Brown (28:39): Thanks so much for listening. Uh, my cup is full after talking with Sonny. I have to admit, I was having a pretty tough day in that it was just full of a lot of priorities, and need, and and meetings, and my energy was a little bit low when I started the recording. And I have to tell you, I could go do just about anything after talking with Sonny. So I so appreciate her time with us and sharing her wisdom, and a little bit of her story. And also was great to be able to look her in the eye and thank her for all that she means to our community. (29:15): So do me a favor as you’re listening. If you happen to be in the Pit when this episode drops, or if you’re listening to this months after, or perhaps even years after this has been recorded, I encourage you to drop by, and return that sunshine to Ms. Sonny, and let her know how much she means to the Wake Forest community. Thank you again for listening. We all have so much to give to the world and so much to share. So keep leaning into the hard work, and hard work of life. And until next time, I look forward to all that each day brings to each one of us. MaryAnna Bailey (29:53): This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the university’s campus life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 13: Vir Gupta

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with the producer of this podcast, Vir Gupta. You’ll hear about how our guest’s upbringing in Bengaluru, India, brought him to Wake, how he’s helped shape the experience for his first-year residents in Collins, what it means to him to live a ‘double-life’, how he keeps himself busy on campus, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and I am so pleased to introduce you to a student who needs no introduction. Today, I get to talk to Vir Gupta. Vir is a junior from Bengaluru, Karnataka, India. He’s a critical and creative media and theatre major, with a minor in economics. On campus, you might find Vir in Scales or Collins Hall because he’s equally active in the theatre department as the president of Anthony Aston Players and our residence halls as an RA. Vir is an official and supervisor for Wake Forest Intramural Sports, among many other things. Vir also produces a couple of podcasts, including this one, and What’s U.P. at Wake, which is a podcast for University Police. This summer, Vir also interned at Busch Gardens as an entertainment technician. I am so excited for you to get to know Vir as much as so many of us have today on the podcast.

(01:09):

Well, okay. Hey, Vir.

Vir Gupta (01:09):

How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:09):

I’m good. How are you doing?

Vir Gupta (01:15):

I’m okay. I’m a, I’m a bit tired. It’s been a long semester already.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:17):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (01:17):

Doesn’t feel like Tuesday.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:18):

I know. And we’re recording right before spring break.

Vir Gupta (01:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:21):

So hopefully you get a little bit of a pause.

Vir Gupta (01:24):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

So I’m really excited that I get to have you behind the microphone.

Vir Gupta (01:27):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:28):

‘Cause people don’t know. You’re often the sound engineer-

Vir Gupta (01:32):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:32):

… the technician, the producer.

Vir Gupta (01:33):

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:34):

Or whether it’s podcast, this one and other podcasts and also your role in theatre, all those things.

Vir Gupta (01:40):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:40):

How are you feeling about this?

Vir Gupta (01:41):

It’s weird. I mean, I’ve never really been on the other side before.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

Okay, well, good.

Vir Gupta (01:46):

So it’s a bit like I’ve always been the one making sure things are recording.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:50):

Right.

Vir Gupta (01:51):

I’m not being the one recorded. (laughs) So …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:53):

Yeah, well, I thought it was important to also make sure you get to be elevated and amplified, ’cause you’re an amazing human.

Vir Gupta (02:02):

That’s very kind of you. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:02):

Well, it’s true. Very true. So I’m really excited. I told you before we pressed record that I’m excited to get to talk to you. You’re such a great student leader on campus. You’re everywhere. Getting to dig in a little bit more about you and your background and all the things you’re involved in and-

Vir Gupta (02:18):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

… what your plans are in the future. So-

Vir Gupta (02:20):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:21):

So it may be helpful.

Vir Gupta (02:23):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:24):

We will start from a very familiar place.

Vir Gupta (02:26):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:26):

So I bet you can guess my first question.

Vir Gupta (02:29):

What’s home to you? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Where’s home for you, exactly.

Vir Gupta (02:32):

So I’m from Bengaluru, India. Born and brought up there, lived there for 19 years before I came here for college.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:39):

Wow. Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (02:39):

That’s home for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:39):

That sounds-

Vir Gupta (02:39):

That’s always going to be home for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Yeah. And will you pronounce it again?

Vir Gupta (02:44):

Bengaluru.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Bengaluru. Okay.

Vir Gupta (02:46):

Right, and the new name is Bangalore, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (02:48):

People call it either. It’s the city in south India, it’s like, I think, 10 million is our population.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

Really? Wow.

Vir Gupta (02:56):

A lot of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

And what was it like? Or what is it like?

Vir Gupta (02:58):

It’s awesome. I mean, I miss it a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

I’m sure.

Vir Gupta (03:00):

The people, I just miss everything about it. I miss the weather.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:03):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (03:03):

It’s known for its weather. People say that morning, winter; afternoon, summer; evening, rain.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:09):

Okay. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (03:09):

(laughs) So it’s like, it’s also just a nice mix of people that come from different places-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:16):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (03:16):

… all across the country to just come and work, to just be there.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Mm-hmm. Now where is it, like, on the geographically?

Vir Gupta (03:22):

It’s inland, so it’s not on the coast.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:24):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (03:24):

It’s kind of in the middle-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (03:26):

But, like, not the bottom of the, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:28):

And that’s why the weather is kind of not polarizing, maybe.

Vir Gupta (03:33):

It’s good. Yeah, I would just describe it as, like, October is like over here.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:36):

Oh, that’s really nice.

Vir Gupta (03:37):

So it’s like nice.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Like fall all the time.

Vir Gupta (03:40):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (03:40):

It’s just nice.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:41):

So it’s like you’re San Diego of India, maybe. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (03:44):

Yeah, and like sometimes-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:45):

People talk about how perfect San Diego weather is.

Vir Gupta (03:47):

It can get hot sometimes, but then it can get, not cold, but pleasant to us too.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:52):

Nice, nice. So do you get home very much since you’ve been here?

Vir Gupta (03:55):

So this winter was the first time in a year that I had gone home.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:01):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (04:02):

But I worked here in the summer, but previously, I went home in the winter and the summer.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (04:05):

And then I’ll be going home this summer.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:06):

Nice.

Vir Gupta (04:08):

Perhaps based on where I end up working this summer.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (04:10):

So that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

And then I saw your mom here.

Vir Gupta (04:14):

So my dad does come over for work sometimes, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (04:16):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (04:17):

My mom tagged along to stay.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:18):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (04:21):

She came and visited, and about a month ago, my dad was here too for his early trip for work.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:26):

Oh, good.

Vir Gupta (04:26):

So he was here. So it was just nice.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:27):

That is nice.

Vir Gupta (04:28):

Like, especially on, like, Parents’ Weekend and all that.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:30):

Yes.

Vir Gupta (04:31):

My first two years here, it was just like you feel odd.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (04:36):

Like, you feel like, oh, everyone’s here. Your friends’ parents and all that.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:39):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (04:39):

But your parents aren’t here.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Right.

Vir Gupta (04:40):

It was really nice to just, like, have them, even though it was like a normal school day.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:44):

Right.

Vir Gupta (04:45):

My mom’s like, “I’ll just go sit in the library and read a book.”

Shea Kidd Brown (04:47):

Well, that’s when I think I saw her. It was the Monday after Family Weekend, and I was doing Milkshake Monday.

Vir Gupta (04:53):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:53):

And I was like, “Wait a minute, that’s gotta be Vir’s mom.”

Vir Gupta (04:55):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:56):

And I was so glad. We didn’t really get to talk about it in the moment.

Vir Gupta (04:59):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

But knowing as an international student, that you don’t have that same luxury of seeing your family when you want to-

Vir Gupta (05:06):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

… and experiencing home when you want to.

Vir Gupta (05:08):

Unfortunately or fortunately, it was just the way it is because, like you learn to, I think, live with them not being here.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:14):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (05:15):

And it’s the small things. It’s like knowing that you only have five hours in a day to call them.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

Hm. Because of the time difference.

Vir Gupta (05:20):

Because of the time difference. Like for me, it’s either, I can call them past 10:00 PM.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Wow.

Vir Gupta (05:25):

Or before 9:00 AM.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (05:25):

Or, or before 9:00 AM, I’m here getting ready for class or asleep.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:32):

Right. Right. (laughs) You are a college student.

Vir Gupta (05:34):

And after 10:00 PM, I’m doing work or something.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:37):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (05:38):

Something’s going on. I’m asleep.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Right.

Vir Gupta (05:39):

So it’s a short window, but you learn to live with it.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

Right. So do you have a routine with them?

Vir Gupta (05:44):

I tend to call them at least once in two or three days.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:45):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (05:45):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:45):

And then you do, like, WhatsApp with texting and like that?

Vir Gupta (05:48):

Yeah, we text some on WhatsApp and then WhatsApp phonecall or whatnot.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:57):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (05:57):

But even if it’s for, like, couple minutes or’ sometimes it’s longer conversations-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:01):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (06:01):

… perhaps on the weekends because otherwise, literally don’t have time.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:03):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (06:04):

It’s like you wanna tell me what’s happening, but I think part of it is also the context.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:08):

Mm-hmm. Oh, sure.

Vir Gupta (06:10):

But it’s so hard. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

To explain.

Vir Gupta (06:12):

It was my mother’s second time coming here, so if I tell her, “Oh, I’m going to the library,” like, “Where is that library?”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:15):

Right. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (06:18):

“Where is Benson?”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:19):

Right.

Vir Gupta (06:19):

What is the Pit?

Shea Kidd Brown (06:19):

What is the ZSR?

Vir Gupta (06:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:21):

What is this place that you speak?

Vir Gupta (06:23):

Exactly. Part of it is context-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:24):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (06:24):

… of I want to explain to them, “Oh, this is going on in my hall-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:25):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (06:28):

… with these friends. I’m going to DP to see something.” Like, well-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:33):

What is DP? (laughs)

Vir Gupta (06:33):

That takes, like, five more minutes. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:33):

It’s these apartments that are kind of close to campus.

Vir Gupta (06:37):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

They’re technically on campus, but technically off.

Vir Gupta (06:40):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

Yeah, you know, I hadn’t really thought of the notion of in the context that you just put it, there’s context, the words that you talked about, but literally time.

Vir Gupta (06:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:51):

Like difference in time and how narrow the window is or connection. Now, do you have siblings too? Okay.

Vir Gupta (06:58):

I do have a sister. She’s a student at Indiana University.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (07:01):

So she’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Is she older or younger?

Vir Gupta (07:02):

She’s younger.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:02):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (07:03):

She’s a sophomore. She’s visited a couple of times.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (07:06):

But she’s starting business there. We’re close, but, man, it’s still, like, hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:10):

Yeah. But you two can likely share way more.

Vir Gupta (07:13):

Yes. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:14):

Because you’re both in American higher education.

Vir Gupta (07:16):

And I think it was interesting for her when she was there because it’s such contrast-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (07:26):

… for population density…

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

Sure, and it’s in more of a city.

Vir Gupta (07:27):

It’s more of a town area, but they go out on the weekends, it’s large strip with all the restaurants the and bars and everything is-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (07:31):

And she’s like, “Oh, wow, this campus is so self-sustained.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

Right.

Vir Gupta (07:34):

Because, like…

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

It’s like a big hug.

Vir Gupta (07:35):

Yeah. Like, I don’t tend to leave campus. For me, it’s like there’s no need.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Right, you don’t have to. Yeah.

Vir Gupta (07:40):

That’s, like, but also I don’t have a car.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Right.

Vir Gupta (07:40):

So that changes it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Yes. Yeah, well I’m glad that y’all can share at least some of the nuance-

Vir Gupta (07:49):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:49):

… around American higher education. You know, what is a student organization? What is service? All those kinds of things. So, yeah, you got my wheels spinning.

Vir Gupta (08:00):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (08:00):

Um, I do wanna come back to this notion of home in terms of how you define it.

Vir Gupta (08:06):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

And that’s something I often ask is, you know, where’s home for you and then what does home mean to you? Because I’m envisioning that you’ve got two definitions of home, just as you’ve talked about.

Vir Gupta (08:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:17):

You know, these two worlds that you’re living in. So is that accurate?

Vir Gupta (08:20):

No, it is true.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:21):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (08:22):

So my … One of my cousins who studied abroad, too, she told me this and I was like, “This is false.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:27):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (08:27):

Uh, she was like, “When you go there, you realize you’re gonna be living a double life.” I’m like, “What does that … “

Shea Kidd Brown (08:33):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (08:33):

And then when I came back home for the first time, I’m like …

Shea Kidd Brown (08:35):

Whoa.

Vir Gupta (08:36):

Like, should it? But it makes sense.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:36):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (08:37):

It’s like friends I have here, if I wanna tell them something about home, again, context matters. I can’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

Right.

Vir Gupta (08:46):

But, like, when I went home and I want to tell them stories about, oh, this thing happened in my residence hall, can’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

You also can’t, yeah.

Vir Gupta (08:53):

The same applies with, like, simple things like the way society is structured there. Like, so independent.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:59):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (09:00):

Traveling, everyone has their own car, everyone just does everything themselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (09:05):

Lives alone, cooks food. It’s a different life, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:06):

Right. And in India, everything is around the family. Yeah.

Vir Gupta (09:09):

Everything is, like, you live with your family.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:11):

Mm-hmm. Forever.

Vir Gupta (09:12):

Like your entire life is based around that.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:14):

Right.

Vir Gupta (09:14):

And it’s just double life.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (09:16):

That’s what it is. I wouldn’t wanna say I’m a different person, but it’s, I’m a different version of myself of-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

Sure, when you’re here versus there. So how have you come to describe this feeling of home?

Vir Gupta (09:26):

I think you define what home is to you, but I think over here, home has been my residential community.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:31):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (09:32):

A group of people or a support system that I enjoy being with.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:35):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (09:35):

And I think that’s what it is, wherever you are.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:37):

Right.

Vir Gupta (09:38):

Like, home is what you make of it-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:39):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (09:39):

… because the people you are with and the environment you’re in.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:42):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (09:42):

You can choose to spend more time with your family-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (09:45):

… or spend more time playing basketball.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:47):

That notion of community, it brings you joy. I love that. Well, you bring a lot of people joy, too.

Vir Gupta (09:53):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:54):

So sort of brought me to this notion of you’re an RA and you’re very involved. Everybody knows Vir. People want you to be their RA the next year (laughs) after they’ve moved out. So talk to me a little bit about your residential experience, what that’s been like for you as a resident before.

Vir Gupta (10:11):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:11):

And I skipped kind of how you came to Wake. We can maybe come back to that.

Vir Gupta (10:15):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:15):

It just seemed like the track we were on.

Vir Gupta (10:17):

Oh, yeah, that’s fine.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:18):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (10:18):

I lived my freshman year here in South, I somehow … I tell people this, especially residents who are struggling, “You have to try at this school.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:23):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (10:26):

It’s sad sometimes because when you see people that don’t go out of their way-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (10:31):

… to make an effort tend to struggle. And somehow that hit me in the first month that I was like, “Oh, god, if I don’t speak to these people who I am very different from-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

That you’re going to be living with, right.

Vir Gupta (10:42):

… very different from me-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (10:42):

… that I’m going to be alone.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:44):

So you picked up on that very quickly.

Vir Gupta (10:46):

I think the way that I sort of made it is that having several groups of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (10:52):

Like I had friends in my residence hall, I had the theatre, I have the people that I work with in intramurals.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:56):

Right. Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (10:57):

Things like that. And lucky enough, what I really like about South Campus, that random assignments that brings together so many different people.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:07):

Right.

Vir Gupta (11:07):

So many. Like, the guy next door to me was Chinese.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:12):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (11:12):

The people down the hall were on the lacrosse team. The other people were track team members.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:16):

Right.

Vir Gupta (11:17):

So I, I was able to form such good connections by just being around these people.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:20):

Mm-hmm. Right.

Vir Gupta (11:20):

From so many different, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:21):

Interests and-

Vir Gupta (11:22):

I would never talk to this person otherwise.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:24):

No.

Vir Gupta (11:26):

And then my RA my freshman year was the person who was, like, “Well, you should apply.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:33):

Oh.

Vir Gupta (11:33):

I said, “I don’t know if I should,” but I was like, “I’m gonna do it.” So I applied, I got the job. I ended up in Collins.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:36):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (11:37):

And I went there with sort of open mind, not knowing what it could be.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:40):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (11:42):

And I was very close to not taking the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:43):

Really?

Vir Gupta (11:44):

Very, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:44):

Was it because of where? Or-

Vir Gupta (11:46):

I think that was a big part of the reason. The other part was, like, the temptation of living the college experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:55):

Oh, I get it.

Vir Gupta (11:55):

… with your friends in a suite.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:55):

I see.

Vir Gupta (11:55):

Versus running back in a freshman dorm with people you don’t know.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:58):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right. Contemplating, comfortable, what you know versus-

Vir Gupta (12:01):

Yeah, yeah, but that’s part of the reason I’m doing it again next year.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Mm-hmm. Okay, that’s great.

Vir Gupta (12:04):

So I’m going back as an RA in Collins for the third time.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:08):

That’s amazing.

Vir Gupta (12:10):

Uh, which is wild to me, but ultimately it was my residence-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (12:13):

Like, you should do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (12:15):

I did it last year. It was so much fun. I’m so happy about this. We created the only community of residents that got a team house.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:23):

Wow.

Vir Gupta (12:24):

So my residents from my house, got a house, one of the road houses.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:27):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (12:27):

The 2B house. We got the house again this year. Going to be at 11 residence from this year’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:33):

Really?

Vir Gupta (12:34):

… hall again living in it.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:35):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (12:36):

I don’t know, it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:36):

That’s special.

Vir Gupta (12:37):

It’s, it’s those things that make me, like, okay, it’s worth doing the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:41):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (12:41):

And they sort of were like, “Well, you’ve done this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:44):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (12:44):

“Why not just do it again?”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:45):

Well, you make a huge difference in their experiences and there’s something really core I think about a first-year experience, especially.

Vir Gupta (12:52):

Oh my god, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

Sounds like that person was really influential for you.

Vir Gupta (12:55):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:56):

So do you remember first-year year and the things that-

Vir Gupta (13:00):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:00):

… maybe you learned from your RA?

Vir Gupta (13:04):

I, yeah, so my first month, I was miserable. I had a few friends, but I was kind of struggling to find my place.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (13:09):

And then you just have to talk to people. And he was just-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Right, and it’s so brand-new, especially for you.

Vir Gupta (13:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:14):

You know, you’re learning cultural context, Wake Forest context, college, living.

Vir Gupta (13:21):

Yeah. Everyone’s struggling.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:22):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (13:22):

Like everyone.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:23):

That’s true.

Vir Gupta (13:24):

And some people are like, “Oh, I don’t know if I should do this, do that.” I’m like, “Or just try it.” Like I went to the involvement fair, I signed up for, like, 25 things.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (13:33):

I’m probably only doing two of those things now.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:34):

Right. ‘Cause you needed to see kind of the, what’s out there.

Vir Gupta (13:36):

Like, just go. Like, no one’s going to be, like, “No, we’re not gonna take your email down.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:40):

Right. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (13:40):

Like, and so they’ll take it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:44):

That’s a good point.

Vir Gupta (13:44):

There’s those things like, “Oh, help, help me with housing.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:47):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (13:48):

Help me with registration,” but I think more than anything, it’s creating a community where-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (13:53):

Where not only I enjoy living in it. Like for me, it’s like when I go back home at the end of the day, then the common room, I can talk to them.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:00):

Right.

Vir Gupta (14:00):

Or what happened me, but they tell me, “Oh, this happened in the hall today.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:03):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (14:04):

And since we all know each other very well-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:06):

Right.

Vir Gupta (14:08):

… it’s easy. But also, like, we have done, like, some strange things. Like we did Secret Santa.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:10):

(laughs) Yeah.

Vir Gupta (14:10):

Well, oh, everyone in the hall participated in it.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:10):

Right.

Vir Gupta (14:10):

And they gave each other like a turkey.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:20):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (14:20):

Like-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:20):

Just because.

Vir Gupta (14:20):

Just because. And it’s like-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:20):

Yeah, well, and I love … I don’t know if you heard yourself say it, but you said, “When I go back home.” Like that has become-

Vir Gupta (14:24):

It’s home now.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:25):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (14:25):

Collins will be my home.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:26):

I love that.

Vir Gupta (14:27):

Like, it has been my home-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:28):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (14:28):

… and it will be for the third year on the same wing, same floor.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Yeah. I love that. So we didn’t talk about this, but how did you decide on Wake Forest?

Vir Gupta (14:37):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:38):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (14:38):

So I struggled. I’m still fairly undecided on what I really want to end up knowing professionally.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (14:43):

I have some idea, but I was very unaware of what I wanted to do. The way you do it back home in India is that you choose a stream. You choose science, commerce, or arts.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:56):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (14:56):

For…

Shea Kidd Brown (14:57):

Is that if you stay in country?

Vir Gupta (14:57):

In country or for eleventh or twelfth …

Shea Kidd Brown (14:57):

Okay, okay.

Vir Gupta (14:58):

For grade eleven and grade twelve. So I chose science because arts sort of restricts you, commerce restricts you less, but not as much-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:05):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (15:05):

… and science, you just keep your options open.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

Right.

Vir Gupta (15:10):

I was good at it, I didn’t like it.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:10):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (15:10):

So applied to a bunch of schools because my family and I were behind the idea that coming to this country sort of gives you more options-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (15:18):

… to study different things, because back home is that if you select a subject, you have to-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:24):

It’s your track.

Vir Gupta (15:24):

If you apply to an engineering university, you’re doing engineering.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:28):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (15:29):

You’re not studying English at any point.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:30):

There’s no changing major?

Vir Gupta (15:32):

You cannot change. That was the thinking behind coming here.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (15:35):

And honest to god, I was shocked. My family was shocked that I was accepted into Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:40):

Mm-hmm. So did you hear about through your school in India, or-

Vir Gupta (15:44):

We just … No, we had a friend who had a college counselor.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:46):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (15:46):

I applied to about 15 schools.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:48):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (15:48):

Wake was one of them and got in, which was a surprise. Still a surprise.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Why was it a surprise?

Vir Gupta (15:54):

Well, I was above average at school, but not top of my class.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:59):

Your above average, though, is like clearly … (laughs)

Vir Gupta (16:02):

Well, I think unfortunately, that’s not the mindset at home.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:05):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (16:05):

The mindset is your value is decided by how good you score in class.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:09):

Wow. Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (16:13):

Not by the things you do outside class.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

And your potential even.

Vir Gupta (16:16):

Yeah. And that’s the way that I was taught and lived.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:19):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (16:20):

And I think that’s the reason I was shocked with that-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:21):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (16:22):

… academically, I wasn’t among the top people in my class.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:26):

In your class.

Vir Gupta (16:27):

No, I was above average.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:28):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (16:28):

But I try to, like, oh, this is a shock.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:31):

And I would imagine your training, though, throughout was very rigorous.

Vir Gupta (16:37):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:37):

So then you were prepared.

Vir Gupta (16:39):

So, like, then coming here, it was, like, okay, I understand the way that-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:42):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (16:43):

If you stand up for things, you’re fine.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (16:45):

And again, like, going out of your room to just talk to someone.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:48):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (16:49):

And then you’ll be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:51):

Wow. I always wonder, because I’m thinking you’re from however many miles away.

Vir Gupta (16:55):

Yeah

Shea Kidd Brown (16:56):

Many, many miles and time zones and it’s amazing that, that Wake found you and you found Wake.

Vir Gupta (17:02):

Oh my god. It’s worked out.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:02):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (17:02):

Luckily.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:04):

More than. (laughs) You know?

Vir Gupta (17:06):

I didn’t get a chance to visit.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:07):

And you were still in a pandemic, too.

Vir Gupta (17:09):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:09):

Tail end of the emergency.

Vir Gupta (17:11):

Mm-hmm. I’m actually meant to graduate this year, ’24.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:13):

Oh, really?

Vir Gupta (17:14):

So I was admitted to graduate in the class of ’24.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Oh, I didn’t know that.

Vir Gupta (17:19):

And the mindset was that, well, it’s kind of pointless to do a semester online, or a year online.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:23):

Right.

Vir Gupta (17:24):

So I deferred my admission by a year.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:24):

Oh, okay.

Vir Gupta (17:26):

Ended up working for the entire-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:28):

Okay. Get home. Right.

Vir Gupta (17:31):

… and then came over the fall of ’21. That’s how I ended up here.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

Wow. Wow.

Vir Gupta (17:36):

So I am a year older than everyone in my class.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Yeah. That explains your wisdom.

Vir Gupta (17:38):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:38):

(laughs) No, I didn’t know that, and I wonder if that space too in between, like, your education really gave you maybe a different level of curiosity when you came?

Vir Gupta (17:49):

It does, because I think working changes you. Like, I think just being in any sort of work environment, you’re like, “Oh, this is how the world works.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:57):

Oh, it is.

Vir Gupta (17:57):

It’s different.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:58):

It is very different.

Vir Gupta (17:59):

Huge shock.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:00):

In the U.S., school is, I remember still 8:00 to 3:00. And, you know, you do that for kindergarten through 12th grade and then you go to American higher education where you choose your classes, but gap years I guess are more common.

Vir Gupta (18:14):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:14):

But I went right in, and so my break actually came after undergrad, because I wanted to go to grad school. I was very involved, like you, and I thought, I need to work, and you’re right, to go into grad school full-time, but having had two years to work.

Vir Gupta (18:29):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:30):

It changes your mindset.

Vir Gupta (18:32):

Yeah, and I think it just changes the way you approach things.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:35):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (18:35):

Like, for me, I was like, my god, yeah, and I’m like, “I really like your job on campus.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:38):

Right. That’s true. Yeah.

Vir Gupta (18:39):

It is…

Shea Kidd Brown (18:40):

‘Cause you were accustomed to working.

Vir Gupta (18:41):

You were accustomed to it, and it’s like this is a silly thing, but it’s nice to just see that paycheck every two weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:47):

Hey, that’s real.

Vir Gupta (18:48):

That’s part of the reason why some people take the job, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:50):

Mm-hmm. You say the job, but you have multiple jobs (laughs).

Vir Gupta (18:52):

A couple of jobs, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:54):

(laughs) So, so you are an official-

Vir Gupta (18:57):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:57):

… um, and a supervisor for intramurals.

Vir Gupta (18:58):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:00):

You are an RA.

Vir Gupta (19:01):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:02):

You produce a couple of podcasts.

Vir Gupta (19:04):

Podcasts (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:05):

(laughs) Anything else that you …

Vir Gupta (19:07):

And I work in the scene shop in the theatre. I help build the sets and do technical work there.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:11):

Yeah. That’s right. So many, so many things. So let’s break some of that down.

Vir Gupta (19:16):

Oh, gosh. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:16):

So you’re involved in the theatre department.

Vir Gupta (19:18):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:19):

So did that interest start here or-

Vir Gupta (19:22):

Been a thing ever since grade one-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:24):

Really?

Vir Gupta (19:24):

… I’ve been on stage, and I came here, and not saying this because I, I need to, but our theatre department is unbelievable.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:32):

Just amazing.

Vir Gupta (19:33):

Student, solely because it is the most tight-knit community-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (19:38):

… in the sense that the professors care so much for you.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

So deeply, right.

Vir Gupta (19:42):

And it is strange that we are on a first-name basis with them.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:46):

You’ve said that to me before.

Vir Gupta (19:46):

It is-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:47):

Or maybe another theatre major has said it.

Vir Gupta (19:49):

It’s not right.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:50):

‘Cause everywhere else on campus, it’s doctor and professor and-

Vir Gupta (19:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:52):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (19:53):

And the door’s open, we can walk in at any time.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (19:56):

And I was able to act in a show my freshman year, and then design a show. And that’s what led me to do more of the technical work for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:03):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (20:04):

I’ve just been there ever since.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:05):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (20:07):

Like, people walk around with a T-shirt that say, “I live in Scales,” because it’s true.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:10):

(laughs) I’ve seen those. I’ve seen those. So you say you’ve been on a stage since grade one.

Vir Gupta (20:15):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:15):

So what have you learned from theatre?

Vir Gupta (20:18):

Oh, my.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:18):

And I think you and I shared that. I was involved in musical theatre in college.

Vir Gupta (20:22):

My biggest thing is just listening to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (20:25):

Because especially if you’re onstage, if you don’t listen to what the other person is saying, then you don’t know how to react.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:30):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (20:31):

The same person.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:31):

True. Yeah.

Vir Gupta (20:33):

And that is something I learned back home was that listen to what they say and then you can react.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:36):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (20:39):

And I think that’s it. And more than anything over here, what I find interesting is the way people collaborate with each other.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:44):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (20:45):

I have no concept of what a stage manager does or what a designer does.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:49):

There’s so many roles.

Vir Gupta (20:50):

Yeah. And back home, it’s like one person is everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:53):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (20:54):

Because you don’t make money in theatre back home. And here, you come here and you learn oh, everybody has to collaborate with each other. Everyone has to work with each other-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:02):

Hm, that’s true.

Vir Gupta (21:02):

… to make sure the show goes up.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:03):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (21:04):

But the same principle that there’s a show going on.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:06):

Right.

Vir Gupta (21:07):

And everyone has to do something.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

So how does that translate into life for you?

Vir Gupta (21:11):

I think just listening to what other people want-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:14):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (21:16):

… and being like, okay, that can be done.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:17):

And as you were describing it, I was thinking about your RA position in that everybody has a role to play.

Vir Gupta (21:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:23):

And even, let’s say, you’re navigating a roommate conflict, most of us as humans come to a conversation, or are speaking to be heard. We’re not listening to understand-

Vir Gupta (21:31):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:32):

… which is what you just described. Even on the stage, I have to listen to you before I react.

Vir Gupta (21:36):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:38):

And so imagine you in, in a much more organic way than most are able to help people get set because you’re listening.

Vir Gupta (21:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:45):

You’re watching. But then also modeling that so well for residents on, a lot of times, this conflict is within us to solve.

Vir Gupta (21:53):

Yeah. But I think the other thing with the residents is that it’s a spectrum of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (21:57):

And you need the spectrum.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:00):

Absolutely.

Vir Gupta (22:03):

Like me and my residents, we have discussed this a lot. We’re like, if, if we didn’t have that person, who kind of just does what they want-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:07):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (22:07):

… is in their own world, then that wouldn’t make the hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:10):

That’s true.

Vir Gupta (22:11):

‘Cause not only are they a talking point-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:11):

Yeah. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (22:11):

It’s not ethnic diversity in a sense, but they are like, diversity in the hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:18):

It’s a dynamic, right. There’s that person. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (22:20):

Oh, there they are.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:22):

Right? And it’s also like a family, you know?

Vir Gupta (22:23):

It is.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

We all have that person. We’re like, “Okay.” But the family wouldn’t be the family without that person.

Vir Gupta (22:29):

Exactly. Like you have to have the personality somehow.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:31):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (22:31):

Otherwise, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:32):

It’s boring.

Vir Gupta (22:34):

… it wouldn’t work.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:34):

Yeah. Comic relief sometimes.

Vir Gupta (22:36):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:36):

It’s … That’s funny the way you describe that. So really involved in theatre and you mentioned the sound design aspect.

Vir Gupta (22:44):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:45):

So was that a new skill that you learned?

Vir Gupta (22:46):

Back home in my year off, I worked in a radio station. I worked as the producer of a morning show. So that’s where I started working on sound stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:55):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (22:55):

And that’s how it translated to the theatre. And obviously, designing for the shows is very different that just editing stuff for radio.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:03):

Right.

Vir Gupta (23:04):

But that’s how it started.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (23:05):

And then I’ve been doing that ever since, and I’ve also picked up lighting design. So just as much as I can take forward.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:12):

You do it all. So you’re performing, and you’re doing the behind-the-scenes.

Vir Gupta (23:16):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:16):

Making people sound good, making people look good.

Vir Gupta (23:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:19):

Even were at Busch Gardens this past summer.

Vir Gupta (23:23):

That’s, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:23):

Doing sound, right?

Vir Gupta (23:24):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:24):

Did you learn anything new at a place that’s that large and established?

Vir Gupta (23:29):

I did, yeah. Again, it’s like working in an established system where you have a defined role-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:35):

Sure.

Vir Gupta (23:35):

… I can just learning about how things work.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (23:38):

There’s a reason they’re that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:39):

Right.

Vir Gupta (23:40):

There’s a reason they’re not-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:40):

Especially as an intern when your job is, like, to listen and look and watch.

Vir Gupta (23:44):

Exactly. It’s like very interesting to just sort of pick up what has been given you and go with it.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:50):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (23:50):

But also you learn technical skills.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:50):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (23:52):

Like, I can apply this to the theatre in this way.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:54):

Totally. I just am imagining what I … I don’t think I’ve even been to Busch Gardens, but when I go to other amusement parks, there is so much that you’re not noticing to create your experience.

Vir Gupta (24:05):

Right. Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:05):

Around lighting and how that changes from day to night.

Vir Gupta (24:08):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:09):

And all those sorts of things.

Vir Gupta (24:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:10):

So I imagine you’ve been able to bring a lot back to the theatre department.

Vir Gupta (24:14):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

And then you, you’re also a podcast producer. So you and I, I’ve talked about you on other podcasts.

Vir Gupta (24:22):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:22):

So we were sitting at a table and you and I were talking and it was actually at a university police event, and I was like, “Vir, I’m thinking about a podcast.” And you’re like, “You’ve gotta do this, Dr. Shea.”

Vir Gupta (24:31):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (24:31):

Like, I’ve said this publicly, but you’re the reason that I-

Vir Gupta (24:34):

Oh, oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:35):

… had the courage to do it because I was very nervous.

Vir Gupta (24:38):

Very kind of you.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:39):

Well, it’s true. And even though I’m a public figure, what some people would describe that way, this is a bit of a vulnerable thing to do.

Vir Gupta (24:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:47):

You, I think, have really encouraged not only me, but university police to tell their story. And when you think about these two podcasts, what are some of the things that you’ve helped people to learn and that you’ve learned about yourself?

Vir Gupta (25:01):

Hm, I think first of all, it’s like the simple things are how do we put this together?

Shea Kidd Brown (25:05):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (25:05):

But I think more than anything, it’s like how do we make this something that people enjoy, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (25:11):

More than anything, the reason that people listen is that it’s honest and it’s simple.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:15):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (25:15):

People listen for stories, people love stories.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:18):

So true.

Vir Gupta (25:18):

And I think just getting people to tell stories. Like, even when interviewing officers or something-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:23):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (25:23):

… trying to get them to tell us about themselves-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:25):

Right.

Vir Gupta (25:26):

… but not just facts, but a story.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:29):

Mm-hmm. Really humanizing the role.

Vir Gupta (25:30):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:31):

Right.

Vir Gupta (25:32):

And I think that’s it.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:33):

Especially in law enforcement.

Vir Gupta (25:34):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:34):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (25:35):

Yeah, because you wanna get to know these people.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:36):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (25:38):

Like, there’s a reason people are scared of them.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:42):

Right. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (25:42):

Because they’re a target.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:43):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (25:43):

People don’t like them.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:45):

Right. That’s true.

Vir Gupta (25:46):

Anything that applies to, like, my residents too, I think the first three weeks are most important weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:48):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Vir Gupta (25:48):

If you’re not around, like, wow, who’s that guy?

Shea Kidd Brown (25:51):

Right. That guy is just making sure I-

Vir Gupta (25:53):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:54):

Catching me when I’m not following the rules.

Vir Gupta (25:56):

Exactly. But then there’s the other side too. If you don’t enforce the rules in the first two weeks, it would be a lawless land.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Sure. That’s a good point. You haven’t earned respect.

Vir Gupta (26:03):

So it’s that we are a line that you have to walk-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:07):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (26:07):

… and luckily I’ve done it for two years now.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:09):

Mm-hmm. Well, we really appreciate that work that we do on our podcast, and like I said, I’m just appreciative that I was sitting next to you and I can remember thinking about all the things that have to be done on a podcast and that made me nervous.

Vir Gupta (26:22):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:23):

And that fact that you’ve been here to support it and Gretchen and Debbie and the work space and definitely a learning process for me, and I’m grateful I had somebody who was experienced in doing it.

Vir Gupta (26:34):

Well, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:35):

It’s really fun.

(26:36):

So we’ve talked a lot about all the things you’re involved in.

Vir Gupta (26:39):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:41):

Also, we haven’t talked about your bike. So we need to talk about that too. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (26:43):

This is a bad story.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:46):

Okay, tell me about the bike. How did that come about?

Vir Gupta (26:50):

Oh my god. Oh, no. Uh, for people that don’t know, I ride around on a blue bike on campus. It’s been with me ever since freshman fall.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:56):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (26:58):

So I got here. I was using Google Maps to get around.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:00):

Ah.

Vir Gupta (27:00):

I was like I had no idea. Every building looks the same. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:04):

It’s beautiful, but it is really hard.

Vir Gupta (27:06):

That was wild to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (27:06):

I was like, “What is this place? Why does everything look the same?”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:10):

And you had never been here.

Vir Gupta (27:11):

I was like, “Where am I?” And I’m not used to walking around because my school campus was very small.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:17):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (27:19):

And I was like, “Well, I need a bike.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (27:19):

So my good friend who lived down the hall, he had a bike and he was like, “I’ll let you borrow it sometimes.” And I was like, “Ray, this is enough. I need to go buy one.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:27):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (27:27):

So one afternoon, this was in early September. The early part. I walked all the way to Ken’s bike store.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:34):

Are you serious?

Vir Gupta (27:34):

Because I was like, “Man, I don’t wanna pay for an Uber.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:34):

Right.

Vir Gupta (27:34):

I was like, “It’s like $10? No.” Because-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

And that’s Ken’s, for those who don’t know, it is two miles from campus.

Vir Gupta (27:44):

Yeah. It’s like a good half-an-hour walk.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:46):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (27:47):

And in my head, at that time, all I was doing was converting. I think you become conscious of that.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:52):

Oh, true.

Vir Gupta (27:52):

You’re like, “Oh, I need to just convert everything from dollars to rupees.” And I’m like, “No, I’m not paying 600 rupees for a cab.” I was like, “No.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:00):

“I need a bike.”

Vir Gupta (28:01):

“I need to go buy a bike.” So I walked down to this place.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:02):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (28:04):

Then, they’re like, “The cheapest bike is $500.” And I’m like-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:05):

Yeah, I was like Ken’s is not cheap.

Vir Gupta (28:07):

I’m like, walk back.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:09):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (28:10):

Bad idea.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:10):

You got your steps in that day. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (28:12):

Yeah. And it’s like 4:00 PM, I’m drenched in sweat by the time I get back.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

And it’s end of summer, so it’s hot.

Vir Gupta (28:18):

And so it’s like, okay, what are we doing now? So I go onto target.com-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:21):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (28:23):

… and I find this bike for about $200-something and I’m like, “Okay, good.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Deal.

Vir Gupta (28:29):

I didn’t think it through, though, because all the deliveries, they go to the basement of Benson.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

Oh no. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (28:33):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (28:34):

Oh, god.

Vir Gupta (28:38):

Yeah, so this is like a week later, I get a notification that you have a packaging.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:43):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (28:43):

Go down there.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:44):

Oh, I’ve been in that line.

Vir Gupta (28:45):

And the box.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:46):

Right. Not put together.

Vir Gupta (28:47):

Not put together, unassembled bike in a box.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

Oh my gosh. Vir.

Vir Gupta (28:50):

And the man who puts it on the trundle is like, “Here you go.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:51):

Good luck.

Vir Gupta (28:55):

I’m like, “What do I do with this?” Luckily, someone I knew was in the line with me.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:58):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (28:58):

And I’m like, “Dylan, can you please help me get this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:59):

Oh. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (29:01):

He’s like, “Sure.”

Shea Kidd Brown (29:02):

Oh, man.

Vir Gupta (29:02):

Walked all the way back to South.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

With this box.

Vir Gupta (29:06):

With this bike. With this box.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:08):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (29:09):

No tools, nothing. My roommates walks in and, like, “What’s is that?”

Shea Kidd Brown (29:16):

“What is happening?”

Vir Gupta (29:16):

“What has Vir got?” Because that’s just a box. And I soon realized I don’t have the tools either. So I scramble for tools, screw on the pedals the wrong way.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:22):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (29:22):

Pedals break off.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:24):

Oh, no.

Vir Gupta (29:25):

Have to go and get the bike fixed. Come back.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:27):

Fixed before it’s put together.

Vir Gupta (29:27):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:28):

Okay.

Vir Gupta (29:29):

For, like, two days, I was riding without pedals.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:32):

How? (laughs)

Vir Gupta (29:32):

So this bike has been through a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

I see why you ride it every day.

Vir Gupta (29:37):

And now, yeah-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:38):

I’m sure framed forever.

Vir Gupta (29:41):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:42):

Oh my gosh. You know, I have seen you on the bike. We were even on a promotional tour.

Vir Gupta (29:46):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

Hit the brakes on the bike, but I did not know the origin story of the bike.

Vir Gupta (29:51):

Yeah, not many people know the origin story.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:52):

Now they will.

Vir Gupta (29:53):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:54):

Does the bike have a name?

Vir Gupta (29:54):

Josephine.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:55):

I figured you had a name. (laughs) Josephine. That’s good.

Vir Gupta (29:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:59):

Good, strong name.

Vir Gupta (30:00):

So we were working on a show, so if you’ve noticed, bike has a horn.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:04):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (30:05):

One of those, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:06):

The horn, yeah.

Vir Gupta (30:06):

The really funky horn.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:06):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (30:08):

But I made a bet with an actor who said that rehearsal would end at a certain time and I said, “No.”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:12):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (30:15):

Bet was for $10. So he lost the bet and said, “I’m not gonna give you $10.” Next day comes with this bike horn. That’s how the bike horn ended up.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:23):

Got it. I love it. Well, thank you for telling me that story of the bike. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (30:26):

That’s the story of the bike. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (30:26):

I’m so glad I asked because it feels like it’s synonymous with your whole brand, you know?

Vir Gupta (30:33):

Lot’s of people say … (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

(laughs) Bike and Vir, now I can say Vir and Josephine, you know?

Vir Gupta (30:37):

Oh my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:37):

It’s adventures with the two of you. And what I was gonna also ask is we were talking about all the things you’re involved in. You always have this bright smile. You’re so positive. You’re here to help everybody, so how do you find balance, if that’s a thing? Integration, grounding? Does that make sense?

Vir Gupta (30:57):

It does.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:57):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (30:58):

This may sound stupid, but my 10:00 PM Friday, I’m asleep.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:01):

Are you? Hey, that’s important.

Vir Gupta (31:03):

Mm-hmm. Because through the week I kind of burn myself out.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:06):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (31:07):

And then come Friday, I sleep in on Sunday.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:10):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (31:10):

‘Cause that’s sort of the only way I can-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:12):

That’s your only time. This will be an unpopular thing for me to say, but sleep is so important.

Vir Gupta (31:17):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:18):

And, you know, college students make it on, you know, however many hours of sleep.

Vir Gupta (31:21):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:21):

But it makes a big difference.

Vir Gupta (31:23):

What my RA from freshman year said this, and it will always stick with me. He’s like, “at Wake, you only get two out of three things. Sleep, a social life, or good grades. You choose.”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:31):

Ooh, wow.

Vir Gupta (31:33):

Well, he said that to me first week at Collins. I’m like, that not…

Shea Kidd Brown (31:39):

“I’m not hearing that.” Right. (laughs) Yeah.

Vir Gupta (31:40):

Like, don’t lie to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:41):

Right.

Vir Gupta (31:42):

And then come junior year, I’m like, “Yes, that’s true. I don’t sleep.”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:44):

Hm, how are you doing with all three, though?

Vir Gupta (31:46):

I don’t sleep during the week. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:48):

That was true based on what he said, yeah, I think.

Vir Gupta (31:51):

And I think there’s no student that has all three.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:52):

That does, right. But you on Fridays make sure you kind of catch up, yeah.

Vir Gupta (31:56):

Because that’s my only day that I don’t…

Shea Kidd Brown (31:56):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (31:56):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:58):

Do you do anything else from a mindfulness or a self-care standpoint?

Vir Gupta (32:03):

I mean, not really. I mean, I enjoy spending time in the theatre working on my lights and sound stuff-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:09):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (32:09):

… but I play basketball every now and then. But-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:12):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (32:12):

… that’s, that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:12):

You like staying busy.

Vir Gupta (32:14):

That’s it. Not yet might leave for break.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:17):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (32:17):

Like, and that’s just the way that I have been rigged.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:19):

You’re wired, yeah. And you’re also really energized, I think, by being a part of something.

Vir Gupta (32:26):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:27):

You know? So whether that’s on an intramural field or in the halls or-

Vir Gupta (32:30):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:30):

… or at the soundstage.

Vir Gupta (32:31):

And another thing that’s really valuable to me is my meals. Like, I see that as a relief-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:38):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (32:38):

… rather than something that’s work.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:40):

Right.

Vir Gupta (32:40):

Because I tend to try and have meals with different people very often.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:44):

Oh, nice. Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (32:45):

And it not only gives me a chance to catch up with people, but it’s like oh, for the first time of the day, I’m sitting down-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:50):

Right.

Vir Gupta (32:51):

… and just thinking.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:51):

And you’re literally fueling your body too.

Vir Gupta (32:54):

It’s that one hour for lunch.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:57):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (32:57):

One hour for dinner with someone-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:58):

Different friends.

Vir Gupta (33:00):

And whether it’s catching up or just talking.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:02):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (33:02):

I really need those. If I were to just eat with the same people every day, I would-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:07):

That wouldn’t work for you?

Vir Gupta (33:08):

I don’t do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:09):

Well, you, you definitely fuel everyone around you, so I’m glad you’re also fueling yourself. And I think just, I feel like we could talk all day.

Vir Gupta (33:18):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:19):

But just a couple more questions. I wanna go back to kind of how we started when you said you were really miserable and you found community-

Vir Gupta (33:25):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:26):

… and you really put yourself out there. So if you could revisit first-year Vir, what advice would you share with yourself?

Vir Gupta (33:33):

Hm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:34):

And maybe how does that translate to residents that you work with now?

Vir Gupta (33:36):

I would just say, “Talk to everyone.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (33:41):

Don’t be scared to, like, not try things you wouldn’t otherwise.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:45):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (33:45):

The thing that I try and think of now is what’s the worst thing that could happen?

Shea Kidd Brown (33:48):

That’s true.

Vir Gupta (33:48):

What is the worst thing that could’ve happened if I went and spoke to someone?

Shea Kidd Brown (33:51):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (33:52):

I don’t know. I just wish I spoke to more people in my first two weeks here, but then-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

That’s such good advice.

Vir Gupta (33:56):

… that got me through the rest of college is just talking to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Right.

Vir Gupta (33:59):

Reaching out and speaking to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:01):

I love that advice, what’s the worst thing that could happen? Because, I mean, the worst thing is it’s a little awkward. (laughs) Like, that’s the worst thing, you know?

Vir Gupta (34:08):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

The best thing is maybe you meet a new friend.

Vir Gupta (34:11):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:11):

Or someone who has part of your life.

Vir Gupta (34:13):

It doesn’t hit you until later that-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:17):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (34:17):

… everyone’s clueless.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:17):

In the same spot, right.

Vir Gupta (34:19):

Clueless.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:20):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (34:20):

And you see it, like, on move-in day sometimes. You see these people are like, “Oh, what have I done?”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

“What have we done?”

Vir Gupta (34:28):

“What are we doing? We don’t know what we’re doing?” I’m like, “Let’s go talk.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:29):

No one knows what they’re doing.

Vir Gupta (34:30):

No one has any idea.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:31):

That’s so true. Yeah, we gotta get that message out more.

Vir Gupta (34:33):

And I, I don’t know how, but it’s just, I think it’s a mindset thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:37):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (34:38):

And someone said it the other day. It’s like, COVID, people became so used to just being with themselves-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (34:43):

… that especially last year then they came here, that’s why there’s such less involvement with things on campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (34:50):

With, like, campus events.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:51):

Right.

Vir Gupta (34:52):

It’s like no one wants to go to these events-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:54):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (34:54):

… because they’re comfortable sitting in their room-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:57):

Right, with their-

Vir Gupta (34:58):

… watching their TV show.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:59):

… or a screen or, yeah.

Vir Gupta (35:00):

It sucks.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:01):

But what we all know is that we’re fulfilled when we actually do, you know?

Vir Gupta (35:04):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:05):

So it’s taking that step of, that extra step. Any other advice?

Vir Gupta (35:08):

No, I think just that.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:10):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (35:12):

Just trying to talk to more people and have fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:12):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (35:13):

Like don’t worry too much. I’m not saying don’t worry about consequences, but it’s your freshman year of college.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:18):

Right.

Vir Gupta (35:18):

Have a good time.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:19):

Enjoy it.

Vir Gupta (35:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

Yeah. As you know, it goes by really fast.

Vir Gupta (35:22):

It goes by really, really fast.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:24):

Really fast.

Vir Gupta (35:24):

Especially with the people that have come back from abroad.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:27):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (35:27):

Like, when we’re sitting on the Pit we’re like, “I feel so old.”

Shea Kidd Brown (35:27):

Yeah. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (35:27):

I just-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:27):

You feel old?

Vir Gupta (35:34):

You feel old because one, you can’t tell the difference between sophomores and freshman.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:38):

Hm.

Vir Gupta (35:38):

Maybe know a couple of sophomores.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:38):

(laughs)

Vir Gupta (35:39):

You don’t know any freshman, and then all the seniors are not eating at the Pit because they live off-campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:43):

Right, true. So you’re the most senior.

Vir Gupta (35:44):

And the juniors, especially last semester, the entirety of my class was abroad.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:49):

That’s true.

Vir Gupta (35:50):

All the seniors are not there, freshman are sort of like clueless.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:54):

They’re all looking to you.

Vir Gupta (35:55):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:56):

And Josephine. (laughs)

Vir Gupta (35:59):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (35:59):

Yeah, yeah, that is an interesting dynamic. Well, it’s really good advice. I think the last thing I would wanna end with is just what are you hopeful for as you think about the future? Your senior year is ahead of you. A third year in Collins.

Vir Gupta (36:12):

Oh my god. I’m looking forward to the community that I have to build again. I’m also looking forward to, like, deepening and strengthening the friendships that I already have-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:22):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (36:23):

… to sort of make that into life-long relationships.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (36:26):

But also just looking forward to my final year of college. My senior year of college, last year of … I don’t wanna say freedom, but last year of-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:33):

Anything like this.

Vir Gupta (36:34):

Yes. No responsibilities or such.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:34):

Mm-hmm.

Vir Gupta (36:34):

Like, you don’t have to-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:39):

It’s a unique experiment.

Vir Gupta (36:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:42):

You know, it’s … I describe it as a period of time where your only goal really is to be curious and to learn about yourself.

Vir Gupta (36:49):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:50):

Very different from when you’re in the world of work. Not that you can’t be curious-

Vir Gupta (36:54):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:54):

… but it’s not your employer’s job to make sure you’re curious.

Vir Gupta (36:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:58):

You know, whereas higher ed, it’s just very different in that way.

Vir Gupta (37:01):

I think part of it is also to just slow down a little bit-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:04):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (37:05):

… and just enjoy the last year.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:07):

Absolutely.

Vir Gupta (37:09):

Even though I’ll be on campus in South Campus, I never left South Campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:13):

That’s right.

Vir Gupta (37:13):

It’s crazy to me. Enjoy it.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:15):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (37:15):

I’d be like, oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:16):

Yeah.

Vir Gupta (37:17):

Like, take it slow.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:19):

That’s right.

Vir Gupta (37:19):

Enjoy time with friends and then just graduate. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (37:23):

Right. You know, it will go by, but there’s so much of life to experience over the next year.

Vir Gupta (37:27):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:27):

And then beyond and then that your future is so bright and you certainly make our campus so much better.

Vir Gupta (37:34):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:35):

So I appreciate you being here today.

Vir Gupta (37:37):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:38):

And all that you do and just I really value the relationship that we’ve been able to build, you know, the last couple years and I’m looking forward to it’s not anywhere near over, so we’ve got lots-

Vir Gupta (37:47):

Yeah. A lot left.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:49):

… a lot left, so thank you for being here today.

Vir Gupta (37:51):

Thank you so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:52):

Absolutely. Vir is such a shining star. I just loved our conversation and hearing about his unique lived experiences, definitions of home and how those were nuanced and how he’s created home at Wake Forest and he’s created home for other Wake Foresters. I think we could’ve spent a whole lot of time just unpacking that notion of home. I’m so appreciative of what he’s done in our community. And as always, I am in awe of our students, they’re individual and collective talents and how we all have an opportunity to change the world. For sure, our worlds.

(38:36):

Truly, each of us has a story to share, I kid you not. So let’s keep leaning into the hard work and heart work that life brings our way. Thank you again for listening.

MaryAnna Bailey (38:47):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the university’s campus life team. For any thoughts and suggestions of what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 12: Jack Wilson “JW” Houze

Listen Now »

In this special episode, Dr. Shea sits down with her 15-year-old son, Jack Wilson Houze. Instead of Dr. Shea asking the questions, she’s in the hot seat with questions being fired her way. You’ll hear about how Dr. Shea’s upbringing and collegiate journey shaped some of her values and morals, how she uses her free time to unwind and find a balance in her life, some of the most important things she’s learned from her role in leadership, what keeps her going, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06)

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and I am super excited about a special guest that I have on the podcast today. But here’s the thing: he’s actually not a guest. That’s right. We are turning the tables, and my 15-year-old is interviewing me. And I have to admit I’m a little nervous. So, let me tell you a little bit about Jack Wilson “JW” Houze, or J-Dub, as we often call him. Jack Wilson “JW” Houze is a ninth-grader at a local high school, and he is so funny. He loves LEGOs and has an appreciation for a wide variety of music. It makes me really proud. He’s a member of the track team, loves soccer, and enjoys cheering on the Deacs anytime he gets to. Right now, he’s an aspiring engineer, and science is his favorite subject. He did not get that from me. I’m not sure exactly what’s in store, but I hope you enjoy it. Here’s my conversation with me and Jack Wilson “JW” Houze.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:01):

Hi everybody. I’m JW, Jack Howes, Jack Brown, whatever you want to call me. I’m here with a person y’all know very well. I’m here with Shea Kidd Brown, also known as the Vice President for Campus Life at Wake Forest. Hey, how are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:15):

I’m good. How are you doing? (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:18):

I’m doing pretty good. (laughs) I’m just really excited that I’m getting to do this because usually I’m just listening to you interviewing-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:22):

… but now I get to interview the interviewer. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

That’s true, but I’m a little nervous, I have to admit. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:25):

(laughs) I’m-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:27):

I’m not usually in this seat-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:28):

‘Cause-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:28):

… and you haven’t told me anything.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:30):

This was a, um, long-time-coming thing, and we talked about this about a couple of months ago, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:35):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (01:36):

I know a lot of your podcasts start by asking the guests this, so I want to ask you. Where’s home for you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:41):

Oh, my favorite question. So, home is Hattiesburg, Mississippi. I’m originally from 60 miles from the Gulf Coast, so it is the deep, deep South. And, you know, home’s changed over the years in terms of living in a lot of different places. But whenever people ask me, I always start with home, it’s crawfish. It’s the deep South. It’s the beach. It’s football, all those things that are important to me.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:05):

Mm, okay. So, I feel like it’s occurring to me now that these people probably have no idea about you. They’re always listening-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:14):

No idea?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:14):

No idea.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:14):

(laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:15):

I mean, hey, they’re, they’re always listening to you talk about other people-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:17):

Oh, true.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:17):

… and be really happy about other people’s accomplishments and other people’s childhoods and all that stuff. But I want to learn about your childhood.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:23):

Oh.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:23):

So, what were you like as a child?

Shea Kidd Brown (02:24):

Oh, this is going to be interesting. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:26):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:27):

My child asking me what I was like. I was a model child. I was, you know-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:31):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Ask Nana and Pops. They’ll say, “She was perfect. She wasn’t…” You don’t see my halo that, that still exists?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:36):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:37):

As a child, I was very talkative. Shocker.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:41):

Mm, I wonder where I get that from.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:41):

Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:41):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:43):

I was a talker. I was really curious. I wanted to be a veterinarian when I grew up, and-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:51):

I shared that dream too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Yes. I think we all-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:53):

At once upon a time.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

… at some point want to be a veterinarian.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:54):

Surely. It’s like the astronaut-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (02:54):

… of, of dreams. You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Yeah, I agree. And it was interesting growing up because my mom was a kindergarten teacher. So, when I went to first grade, I vividly remember going in first grade and my classroom was next door to hers.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:09):

Mm, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:09):

And in second grade, it was across the hall. So, this whole talking thing, like, my teachers felt compelled to tell my mom. She was right down the hall, so …

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:16):

Well, it kind of makes sense why you started the podcast because-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Yeah. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:18):

… I mean, so you can keep up the conversation.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Yeah, yep. So, but I would say I was a rule follower. I was a good kid. I joke that I was an angel.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:26):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

I was not an angel. Um, also just as a child, went to a school that was primarily white. And so, my mom was the only Black employee, not only Black teacher, but only Black employee. So …

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:38):

Mm, wow!

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

And-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:39):

That was a huge accomplishment for her, huh?

Shea Kidd Brown (03:39):

Well-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:39):

Just to be able to-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

Well, accomplishment or just made it. It was a-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

… interesting environment. And so, also, I was, generally speaking, the only Black student in each of my classes-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (03:51):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:51):

… until sixth grade, and then there were two of us. So, it was … of course when you’re in something, you don’t really know that that’s not the norm, but-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:00):

Right, because, because your, you’ve just been around that all the time, and you kind of feel like … it’s like that’s your safe place. It’s like-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:06):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:06):

… you’re kind of in this bubble, whereas thinking, like, outside of that bubble seems not scary, but you just don’t know.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

Yeah, exactly.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:12):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:13):

So, I think as a result of always kind of being different, I was the one who wanted to be friendly. I was the one who wanted to find my people and connect because, out of necessity, I had to find that. It did not necessarily always come naturally socially to me to dance. I was a cheerleader in middle school and high school.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:31):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

You know, I’m still peoples’ cheerleader, so …

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:33):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:34):

Love sports. You know, our childhoods are framed by how … our upbringing. You’re our only child, at least right now. And I had two siblings, but my older brother was almost seven years older-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:44):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:44):

… than me, and then my-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:45):

Wow!

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

… little brother, your Uncle Aubrey-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:47):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:47):

… was eleven-and-a-half years younger than me.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:51):

Mm, so you had just that complete, like, we were surrounded, but it felt, like, natural. And it, i- it kind of flowed with the family aspect.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:58):

Yeah. And we were really spread out-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (04:59):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

… age-wise. We almost grew up like three only children, to some degree, but we were connected. And, of course, as adults now, we’re really tight.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:06):

Speaking on the, uh, cheerleader and-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:08):

… uh, all the social things that you did in high school, it kind of makes sense ’cause I feel like those started to lead you down the path of, like, college work and, like, undergrad-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:16):

… and … But speaking of Nana, I just want to ask, what were your parents like?

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

You don’t know what they’re like?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:19):

Well, I know what they’re like.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

(laughs) This is so funny.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:19):

They don’t know what they’re like.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

(laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:19):

They don’t know what they’re like.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

They are definitely different as grandparents than parents, I’ll say.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:26):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:27):

Nana received a master’s degree. She worked really hard. So, she was in … I don’t know if you know this, but she started college when she was 16.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:35):

16?

Shea Kidd Brown (05:36):

Yes.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:37):

You never told me that.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:38):

A year –

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:38):

I didn’t know that.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:38):

… younger than you.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:38):

That is crazy!

Shea Kidd Brown (05:40):

Yes. And then-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:41):

That’s wild.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

Um, so she was done with her-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:43):

I should have followed in her footsteps. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:45):

Right. She was done with her undergraduate degree when she was 20.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (05:47):

That’s crazy.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:48):

And then she went on to teach and then finished her master’s a little bit later. My mom was always really someone I felt like I could lean on. She was really trustworthy, so … and we just may have a soundtrack. We’re recording at our home, and our dog is … it’s the time that he’s deciding to make himself known, so …

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:08):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

If you hear some barking here and there on the recording, that is Hardy saying hello.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:12):

And y’all are just lucky that the big one isn’t barking because-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

That’s right.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:15):

… when the bog one is barking, he does not stop.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:16):

Everybody knows it. But she, to this day, is someone who I feel like never judged me. I could be myself fully. She reminded me one time. I was young, and I said, “You’re such a great friend.” And she was like, “I am not your friend.”

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:29):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:31):

“I am your mother.” (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:32):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:33):

And so-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:33):

(laughs) I was about to touch on that.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:34):

Yeah, so I was like, “Okay. I thought we were cool.” I was in my 20s, so I was a full-fledged adult. But that told me something like there was a certain level of respect. I was never afraid of my mom, but I always respected her. And when I maybe lost sight of her role in my laugh (laughs), she was quick-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:50):

Mm-hmm, she was correcting you.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:51):

… to remind me.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (06:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:52):

And then, my dad, I would say, was the, more of the disciplinarian. And not to say my mom didn’t create boundaries and that sort of thing. There was just a dichotomy there in sort of their ways of parenting. And so, he was much more of the, the heavy, I guess I would say. My dad, to this day, sells men’s suits, so he’s very much all about the clothing and the fashion. Sometimes people will ask me, you know, my inspiration and … because I do love fashion. And I would say they’re both pretty stylish, but my dad, as you know, Pops is always-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (07:25):

Always-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

… put together.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (07:26):

… always putting it on.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:27):

He’s got the hat, and the suits, and more clothes than all of us-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (07:30):

And the shoes and-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:30):

… combined.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (07:32):

… all that stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:32):

So-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (07:32):

We’ll call that. That shoe closet is … whew, it’s something.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

Yeah, it’s impressive.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (07:35):

It’s unbelievable. It is very impressive..

Shea Kidd Brown (07:38):

Yeah, so they were together, I feel like, a really good pair. The other thing is interesting. My mom was more of the traditional worker, kind of the 8:00 to 5:00. My dad had a much more flexible schedule. So, as a result, gender roles have always been really blurred for me in a good way. So, I might come home to my dad with a meal prepared or having the house cleaned. And he also did my hair growing up. Did you know that?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:01):

(laughs). That’s unbelievable. No, I had no idea.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

Yeah, so-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:01):

That is unbelievable. He can cook some really good meals.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:06):

Uh, obviously, like, gender roles exist.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:09):

But I feel like good structure is just kind of 50/50, and I-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:12):

… I feel like that’s what you’ve had. Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:15):

Yeah, it was a partnership.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:15):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:15):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:16):

And like, it shouldn’t be, uh, one person specifically doing this, one person-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:20):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:20):

… specifically doing this because sometimes that one person can’t do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:23):

Yeah. And not-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:23):

But sometimes-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:24):

… limited by gender.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:24):

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:24):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:25):

I just feel it is important thing to, to have, like a, an important dynamic to have, is family, especially when you have a child. But obviously, they made something good. (laughs) You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

(laughs) Is that me?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:34):

Yes. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (08:35):

(laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:35):

Obviously, they made something good.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:37):

(laughs) Okay. Does that give you more insight into what-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:39):

Yeah, of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:39):

We had a lot of rules. I would say pretty strict, very grounded in our faith.,

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:43):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:44):

Pops was a ordained minister, so I’m not sure if you knew that either.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:47):

I didn’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:47):

You’re learning things about-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:47):

Yeah, I’m learning.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:48):

… grandparents.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:50):

I’m learning more things than, I’m learning more things than I thought.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

Yeah, so the church was a big part of upbringing and being really involved there.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (08:56):

So, going back probably about a couple of years, what were you interested in most as a child besides veterinarian and, uh, all of that stuff?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:03):

Yeah. When I learned that you couldn’t just take care of cute puppies, I-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (09:06):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:06):

… (laughs) changed my mind on what I wanted to be. So, I think I was a really good writer.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (09:12):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:12):

I loved reading, but I was a slow reader. So, I think over time I liked reading less because the things like standardized tests and those kinds of things really are-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (09:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:21):

… geared toward the reading.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (09:22):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:22):

And so, I feel like I didn’t keep it up because I felt almost defeated as it related to … if it was a comprehension test, and I couldn’t read fast enough … You’re in that stage of your life right now where you’re starting to do those kinds of tests, and that’s why I always say, “Read!” Just because I feel like I didn’t develop a love for reading again until like undergrad and grad school.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (09:40):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:41):

I was curious in a lot about history, and your great-granny was involved in the Civil Rights Movement, so I was always interested in that as a kid and any way that I could be creative. I remember Vacation Bible School, or camps in the summer, or just hanging out. I was that kid that had the paint pen, and I was-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:00):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

… creative, or learning different kinds of ways to be for cursive. But I will say I didn’t have like a strong sense of what I wanted to do career-wise. That started to form in high school. I was just really curious.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:12):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:13):

Like, I decided early on that I was not good at math.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:14):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:15):

So then I sort of defaulted to more of the creative side, the writing, reading-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:21):

I feel that. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:21):

… those aspects. Whereas you love science, and STEM, and all those kinds of things. I jokingly tell you I don’t know where you got that.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:26):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:28):

(laughs) Because I’m not sure you got it from me. Of course, STEM, though, does have the creative aspects of it.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:32):

Right. I just like … I feel like above all ’cause I have a pretty strong LEGO addiction at the moment, and it’s been present for a while-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:39):

Healthy addiction. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:39):

Yeah. And, um, I don’t know. I just feel like that definitely helped with my STEM interest because LEGO is all about experimentation.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:47):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:47):

And that’s pretty much the same thing as, like, chemistry and STEM. Mixing stuff together-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Mm-hmm-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:52):

… and doing different experiments, seeing different organisms, just-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (10:55):

… got into cells probably sixth grade. That kind of just stuck with me, and I feel like I definitely got that creativity aspect from you because-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:03):

… I just like seeing things, like, happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:04):

Right.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:05):

And that’s one of the reasons I like science a lot. And so, as a child, who did you look up to?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:10):

Ooh.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:11):

Not just your parents because I know that’s going to be one of the answers.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:14):

Well, no-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:14):

But-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:15):

… actually not.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:15):

Oh, really?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:16):

Um, yeah, I didn’t idolize them, I think, because they were up close. So, it was … this is going to really date me, but I used to love watching Miss America.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:24):

Really?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:25):

Yes! And-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:26):

You still do sometimes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:26):

Well-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:26):

Sometimes, but not as often, of course. But-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

Yeah. But Debbie Turner, who was a Black winner of Miss America … representation matters, so being able to see yourself reflected back … I didn’t necessarily know that as a young child, but that’s what I was seeing is someone who had some connection to me from an identity perspective. And she was a veterinarian. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:49):

Oh, really?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

So, that’s-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:50):

So that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:50):

… where that came from.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:50):

Yep.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:51):

And she played the xylophone. So, for a very, very short amount of time, I thought that would be a cool instrument to play. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:57):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:58):

It takes up a lot of space, so …

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (11:59):

It does. It does.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

… I did not have access to that. She was a person of conviction. She was someone who was really confident. She was beautiful. She was intelligent. And so, that was someone on a very national stage that I connected with as a child. Now, again, I was very young. I would say I have lots of questions about pageants at this point in my life. But at that point, it was like it was someone I wanted to be like when I grew up. Like I said, I didn’t necessarily connect my interest in veterinary medicine to her, but that was certainly where it came from.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (12:30):

And so, hopping a little bit ahead, I want to talk about your decision in Southern Mississippi, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:34):

Oh.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (12:34):

… why did you, why did you decide to go with that?

Shea Kidd Brown (12:34):

Yeah. So, I … definitely someone who the thought of going far away from college scared me. My parents lived in the same hometown. Like, we always lived in Hattiesburg. We never moved. Like, you’ve moved multiple times.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (12:49):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:50):

So, I think as a result, I was curious and certainly looked at, at a lot of different places, but I was really involved in high school. I was a cheerleader. I ended up being captain, competed through cheer. And then I was Student Body President, so I was really involved in student government association and just advocacy and engaging with administrators, and those kinds of things. Really, really active in service, so the community traveled abroad to Africa to do service work.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (13:18):

Right. In Zimbabwe? Right? Or-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

Um, Zimbabwe. And my first trip abroad was when I was 16. Again, we’re making a lot of references to 16.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (13:25):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:26):

I was 16 and went to Botswana, Africa-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (13:28):

Really?

Shea Kidd Brown (13:29):

… and Zimbabwe, that first trip. And then I went three consecutive summers after that, so four total times.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (13:35):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:35):

And I’m saying all of that because I was building this resume. It wasn’t, “Ew, I’m doing this because I’m putting it on my resume,” but I was building all of these experiences. So, by the time I got to decision time, I was thinking about Southern Miss. It was my hometown school. I was also … we didn’t talk about this a lot, but I was not necessarily confident in-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (13:56):

Really?

Shea Kidd Brown (13:56):

… my abilities. And I think it was potentially my identities and, you know, what I mentioned earlier about being the only in a lot of spaces. High school was not fun for me, and I really struggled socially. You and I talked about this a few weeks ago. But it was important for me to go through those challenges. But anyway, long story long-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (14:16):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (14:16):

… I didn’t look very far and wide. Um, Southern Miss was in my backyard, and they had this program called the Leadership Scholars Program. And I applied for it and went on an interview on campus. I also applied to the area community college. And at that point, I really … the whole college decision time, I was planning to go to a community college. In Mississippi, a lot of people will start at a community college, meaning they go to school for two years, and then they transfer to a four-year university. It’s smaller. It feels more accessible and provides a smoother transition from high school to college, and I just thought a university was too big. I was going to be swallowed up by this big place.

(14:54):

I remember going to a college fair in my high school gym, and there was this woman who … I guess I … I don’t know. We just connected, and her name’s Stacy Calloway at the time. She’s now Stacy Calloway-Ready. And she told me about this leadership scholarship that I just mentioned. And so, it really was Stacy who saw something in me, even that spit second at a table, who encouraged me. And then my mom affirmed, “This is really something you should consider.” And I was like, “I don’t know if you can do the big school.”

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (15:20):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:20):

But I did. And as I said, I went through that process, and I was successful. And it was a four-year program, so it was a live-on four years with a requirement that you get involved.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (15:29):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:29):

And so, that solidified my decision. I had the opportunity to go to a community college, but I decided on Southern Miss because I felt like it was a place that I could grow and develop. And I lived on campus, so I was in Hattiesburg, but I didn’t live at home with my parents. So I could be away without being away.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (15:46):

So, I will kind of want to touch on Africa for-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:49):

Okay.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (15:50):

… just a little bit. And I’m going to go a little bit off script here because I-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

That’s fine.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (15:52):

… because I don’t have this written down. But how was your time in Africa, and Zimbabwe, and Botswana? What all did you do?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:59):

It was amazing. So, I traveled to Botswana, Africa through a mission organization, so it was indirectly, I guess, through my church. And I had a friend who had gone abroad with this organization before, and she would come back in the summers and just talk about how life-changing it was. And at this point, I had not even been on an airplane. The more I heard, the more I wanted to do it, and so I decided to go to Botswana. My parents were like, “Okay, you haven’t been on a plane anywhere, and you want to go to a where, at when, and how old?”

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (16:27):

(laughs) All the way across the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:28):

All the way across the world. And I had to raise the money to get there, and so it was this whole process. But-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (16:33):

How’d you do that?

Shea Kidd Brown (16:34):

So, I reached out to our friends, to people at church, to businesses, and I raised $5,000 for a summer.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (16:42):

Wow!

Shea Kidd Brown (16:43):

So, I did that, and I would say it was life-changing in that certainly it was connected to a religious organization, but as I think where I am now and back, the most life-changing part of it was at 16 going to another country, seeing people happy, thriving, and just living very differently than I lived in the United States, and knowing that those two things can coexist, it was really fascinating. And you know how you, the Lion King, the silhouettes that you see of the sky, like-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (17:10):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:10):

… it looks like that.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (17:11):

Wow!

Shea Kidd Brown (17:12):

Yeah. So just, it sounds cliché, but it just opened my eyes to a whole new world, and I’ve been able to see the world through that same lens for all these years. And I also met some of my best friends, so-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (17:23):

Really?

Shea Kidd Brown (17:23):

… I was just on a trip with two of those friends a few weeks ago. And the fact that I connected with them then and we’ve been friends, as we say, longer than we haven’t at this point is incredible. But I got to whitewater raft. You know, being in Africa as a Black woman, the people in Africa really were fascinated by meeting a Black American, and so that was really interesting to feel connected to my roots in some ways and also disconnected because I grew up in America.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (17:50):

That is very awesome, and I can’t believe I’m learning so much that I didn’t know before.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:53):

(laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (17:54):

So, after the University of Southern Mississippi, you went on to earn a master’s degree in Georgia. How was that experience?

Shea Kidd Brown (18:00):

It was very good. I, so I worked. So, right after undergrad, I worked for two years. A lot of people don’t know this, but I worked in sales, and I learned that that was-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (18:09):

Really? You worked in sales?

Shea Kidd Brown (18:10):

Yes. I learned that that was not my calling, let’s just say.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (18:13):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:14):

And I originally wanted to be a pharmaceutical sales executive, and what I do right now is that. Right?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (18:20):

Mm, yeah, ah, of course, of course. Definitely.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:20):

No, ex- except not at all.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (18:20):

Yeah, no. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:24):

I didn’t have sales experience, and so the goal was after undergrad to get sales experience so that I could move into that sphere. And what I learned in that journey was that, um, it did not fill my cup. And so, I was living in South Florida at the time, and I reached out to my mentor. We didn’t really talk about my experience at Southern Miss, but he was someone that was just a constant mentor when I was in undergrad, and ended up working with him, and he’s actually why I went into the field that I’m in today. And so, when I was in sales working in Florida, not happy, I called him. His name is Joe Paul. And I was literally at a crossroad, like … I can still see the image. I was seeing the train go by. And, um, I just said like, “I’m not happy in my current job, and I’m thinking back to some advice you gave me when I was an undergrad when I was thinking about what I wanted to be when I grew up. And you told me to consider higher education.” And I was like, “Yeah, that sounds great, but I’m on this sales path.”

(19:18):

And so, sometimes life teaches you lessons. You have to be in it before you can really learn. And you have to sometimes learn what you don’t want to do to find what you do want to do, and that was my case. So, after that conversation, he and I talked about the top higher-ed programs. That really clicked for me. I was thinking back to what am I actually passionate about. What did I love? What are spaces that I feel like I’m working, but it’s not exerting nearly as much energy because it comes naturally to me?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (19:46):

Right. Sustaining you and filling-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:47):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (19:47):

… you with your energy, whereas the previous thing that you were going into didn’t. Like you said, it didn’t fill your cup, and it didn’t give you that excitement that you wanted.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

Exactly. So, I started looking into programs that he recommended, and Georgia was at the top of the list. And so, I applied to one school, which I wouldn’t recommend. And then, I was invited to an interview weekend and learned that it was top program. And I was like, “Okay, I hope this works out,” and it did. So, my time in Georgia was really meaningful. I was in a program with less than 20 people, so we were in every class together.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (20:19):

Wow. That probably got not old, but it probably got easy pretty quickly, uh, whereas it was like you could know everybody.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (20:26):

And just you, you understand, like, these are the people that I’m going to be with for a-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:30):

Two years.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (20:30):

… long period of time.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:30):

Right.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (20:32):

It builds a small community, but it, like you knew everybody, and everybody knew you, so it made it probably a lot easier.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:37):

It’s like a family. You know?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (20:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:38):

There were great things about it, and there were dynamics that, “Okay, we’re family. We’re in this for the next two years.” So, the program was really designed to teach theoretical frameworks around human behavior. So, learning college students, how they tick, how they exist through the lifecycle, and how that knowing that prepares you to be a good administrator. So there were … it’s a very rigorous program, two years, but really got to get my feet wet in this career, and that set me on a journey. There’s also … I’m a big sports fan-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (21:08):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

… so I enjoyed Georgia football and things that came with that.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (21:11):

So, I got to say you are giving me some really good segues because earlier, you talked about Joe Paul and your mentors and everything. So, I mean, you always talk about the importance of mentors in your life, and besides Joe Paul, who else mentored you?

Shea Kidd Brown (21:25):

Well, can I talk about Joe Paul a little bit?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (21:27):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

Okay. I would say that toward the end of my first year, I got to know him, and he … I was coming out of the student union, and there was this little bouncy man. He’s only like five-four or so. And he’s like, “Hey, what’s your name? What’s your story?” And we just hit it off and developed a relationship. And what I needed when I met him was someone who could give me affirmation, who saw me, who understood, perhaps, what I was going through as a student. And that thread that I mentioned in kindergarten through eighth grade that carried forward in high school of being the only, you know, you bring that stuff with you.

(22:01):

So, in college, I was wondering if I was enough, if I had what it took to be successful as a Black woman on a predominantly white campus. Did I belong there? And he was someone who is white, who was a great ally and advocate for me, and who reassured me that I absolutely had what it took and that I had skills, and strengths, and talents, and something to contribute to not only Southern Miss but to the world. Because something about mentors I think it’s important for people to understand is, to me, the most valuable mentor relationships haven’t happened as a result of me asking them to be my mentor.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (22:37):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:37):

It’s been these organic relationships where-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (22:39):

That kind of just gradually develop over time.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:41):

Yeah. When you ask someone a question or, “Hey, I’m trying to problem solve this,” or, “I need advice on this.” And then, over time, they become that. That’s what Joe Paul was for me, so he certainly served in that role in that capacity bef- probably before he knew was as an undergrad student and then when I called him, you know, when I was trying to figure out my life. And he recommended Georgia. And then, when I got my first job offer, I called him. You know, throughout the course of my career, I remember when the Wake Forest opportunity presented itself, he was one of the people I called to say, “Hey, this is progressing along.” You know, and getting some advice from him, not only getting advice but also, just watching him over the years and his leadership style. I really took note of that.

(23:22):

Um, I would say other mentors … I’m really fortunate that I had people who were right in front of me who were mentors. So, you’ve heard me say this. Students hear me say this, my colleagues, that leadership is not always a position. And so, being able to watch and learn from my mom, who worked really hard, and who is also a cheerleader in her own right. She wasn’t a cheerleader like me in high school, but she, you know, always cheered me on. I watched her work hard. I watched her struggle. I watched how she always came out on the other side with a lesson learned, so she was a great model for me.

(23:55):

And then I would say my grandmother, so our Granny who passed away last December. I’m sorry, of ’22. She’s someone who worked side by side with Medgar Evers, who’s a Civil Rights leader and worked with him until the time he was assassinated and was really active in the Civil Rights movement. I often describe her as a hidden figure in her own right. You know, of course, there was a movie, but just seeing her. And she wasn’t somebody who was like, “I did this. I worked for Medgar Evers. I’ve sat in, you know, during the Civil Rights movement, participated,” and all of those monumental efforts. But I just watched her. I watched her lead in her own way, and when the feistiness comes out or the navy blue, so whenever I wear navy blue is kind of the way to honor her. And so, I would say those would be my other two in addition-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (24:40):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:40):

… to Joe Paul. And Granny still lives with me, like-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (24:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:42):

… the lessons that, that she taught me are still with me today.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (24:45):

Before I go to this next statement, I just want to say Granny did a lot in her lifetime.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (24:51):

She, of course, mentored you.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:51):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (24:52):

She mentored me. She, uh, was kind of just a guide between all of our lives-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (24:57):

… from the time she was on this Earth. And she does still live with us. And it’s just amazing that I got to be in a time period where both my grandparents and a great-grandparent-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:06):

… alive. She was a predominant Civil Rights activist. She was in the Air Force.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:11):

She was.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:12):

She did a lot for this country and for our people, and I, I just feel like unappreciated sometimes-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:17):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:17):

… because a lot of times, like you said, she’s a hidden figure. And what people see out of other people she did behind closed doors.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:24):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:24):

And a lot of people don’t know about the accomplishments that she did, so I’m glad we’re getting this opportunity to kind of share with a lot of other people what she did.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:31):

I agree.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:32):

And so, on this next segment, I just want to talk about kind of just behind the scenes, what you do in your free time.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:35):

Oh-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:35):

I got three-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:36):

… free time (laughs).

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:38):

… three questions.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:39):

Okay.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:39):

What do you do in your free time?

Shea Kidd Brown (25:39):

Okay.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:41):

How you relax, and what gets you up in the morning.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:44):

Oh, what free time? (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:44):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:46):

So, free time, first of all, I jokingly say, “what free time?” I think you have to create free time, so it’s not this fuzzy thing that’s just going to happen, and then you-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (25:56):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:56):

… get to lay on the couch all day. You have to really set boundaries in your life, and not in a rigid sort of way, but just to say, “You know, I’m going to take time for lunch today even if it’s a work day.” Or on this Saturday, I’m going to plan out what I’m going to do. So, when I do have free time or when I structure free time, I love to be creative. So, I love being able to make things, so whether that’s sewing, or … I was just telling someone I, I learned how to hand letter when, when I got married two-and-a-half years ago. I learned how to address all the invitations with calligraphy. I love taking a walk. So, if the weather’s nice, that’s the disclaimer. I don’t walk outside in the winter.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (26:36):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:37):

I don’t like the winter at all.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (26:38):

No. You did buy a treadmill, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:39):

Yes.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (26:39):

It’s not the same feeling, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:42):

That’s not something I would choose to do in my free time. It’s something I need to do out of necessity. But when it’s warm, I love walking around.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (26:49):

Walking outside. You also get to meet a lot of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:50):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (26:50):

Especially in the summertime because a lot of the kids are going down to the pool. A lot of adults are out and walking while their kids are at the pool. And I’d say this neighborhood is a lot more diverse than the ones that we were previously in.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:01):

So, it’s just really good thing just sort of me to get around the community and-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:05):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:06):

… meet some people in that.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:07):

So, I would say also when I have an extended period away from work, I love the beach, so that’s-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:14):

Of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:14):

… my happy place, as you know.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:15):

Mm-hmm-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:16):

So, I really … anytime I have a opportunity to see the water, that can be winter, spring, summer, or fall. It doesn’t matter. Um, it’s where I want to go if I-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:24):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:24):

… have time off. But in this time of year, I love seeing things pop up out of the ground. It’s nice to, to know the things I’ve planted in my free time in October are starting to pop up, which is really nice.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:35):

And finally, it’s showing signs of spring-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:37):

Yes.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:38):

… after all this time ’cause I feel like with North Carolina weather, it is insane because it’s either hot, it’s either cold, rainy-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:46):

Yeah, but you love the cold.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:48):

… sunny. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:48):

You’re different from me.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:48):

I do. But, like, I don’t hate the hot either.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:50):

Yeah, that’s true.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:50):

But you just hate the cold. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:52):

Yeah, it’s true. I’m, I’m not a fan.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:54):

Mm-hmm. I know, uh, you love heat.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (27:58):

And you love getting to just be able to get out of the house anytime you can. And, uh, anytime you just need to let off some steam or just have fun, you just-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (28:06):

… go for a walk, and I really appreciate that. My final question is, what gets you up in the morning for this?

Shea Kidd Brown (28:11):

Oh, yes. I’m sorry. I think there is so much to live for. I love my family. I didn’t mention y’all in my free time, but-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (28:17):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

(laughs) … I enjoy spending time with you, by the way, if you didn’t know that already. I love our life that we are getting to live and everything that has come with that, just spending time with each other. You know, we enjoy dancing in the kitchen, and you’re the DJ in the family, so I love living for you and with you. I think that’s a really big part. I also get up really excited about my job. I love what I do. I-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (28:41):

Which is huge because not a lot of people get that privilege to-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:45):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (28:45):

… actually, like, be happy to do-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:45):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (28:48):

… something that they genuinely like to do, and I’m glad you’re in that position now because you’ve worked for it for a very long time. I’m not sure you talked about this, but this is a job that you’ve wanted to do for … ever since you didn’t want to be a veterinarian. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:01):

(laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (29:02):

I feel like it’s very important that you sort of kind of realize, and I’m glad you do. You don’t take this life for granted. You wake up with a smile on your face when you don’t want to smile, and you kind of just appreciate everything that … all the gifts of life, and I-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:15):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (29:16):

… and I really appreciate that.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:17):

You’re right. Well, I would say if we’re fortunate enough, we find a job that we want to get up and do-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (29:23):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:23):

… every day. And I found that, and I’ve got just an incredible community that we’ve made here in Winston-Salem, amazing students who teach me every day, colleagues that I love working with, a university whose values align with mine. And so, when that’s all the case, I get up. I make my cup of coffee. I do have to have a cup, only one, but I have to have that cup of coffee. And I wake up early, as you know, because you’re still asleep when I wake up, but I wake up about 5:15 every morning. And that’s when the house is quiet and I can do a little pre-work, and then I gradually get to the office.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (29:57):

Yeah, this is insane to me. It’s still kind of hard to believe, but you started doing this work here a little over two-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Mm-hmm. I know, which is hard to-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:03):

… years ago, which is insane because it flew by.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:06):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:06):

I was thinking back a year, and I was like, “It’s crazy that you started this last year. Oh, wait.”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:13):

Mm-hmm-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:13):

No, we didn’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:13):

No.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:13):

We started this, we started this two years ago. It’s just-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:14):

Yeah, and you weren’t so happy about it.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:17):

Uh-huh. Ah, i- it grew on me, I got to say.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:18):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:19):

It grew on me. And, uh, how was the transition? I just want to touch on that because-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:23):

… maybe if I get interviewed in the future, I’ll talk about my side, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:26):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:26):

… I want to know about your side of the transition.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:28):

Yeah, we can talk about yours. That can be the next segment. We can talk about yours.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (30:31):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (30:31):

My transition was a transition. Like, I think it is tough to leave a place that you’re really established, a place that you love. So, I was at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. And there were lots of tears when I left that place because I loved it. And I think any place that you’ve invested in, there’s some emotion when it’s not going to be a part of your every-day. I was looking forward to this opportunity.

(30:54):

The biggest thing that I was curious about was leaving a place that was well over 30,000 students and coming to a place that was much more intimate and what that would be like. And also, being very sensitive that what worked at the University of Tennessee may or may not work at Wake Forest, so leaning into what the needs of this university are or what our students need post-Covid because you started middle school in Covid. Like, every milestone where a student was involved it likely changed them. I’m a thinker, as you know. I’m … does everything within intention, and so, I’d say it was a fairly smooth transition, but it was still a transition.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (31:35):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:36):

It was learning people, and there’s-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (31:38):

Of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:38):

… the discomfort that comes with not knowing. And so, because I didn’t know even the names of buildings, much less how the place worked, much less how to be a good steward of a very large division. And so, it took some time, so I had to give myself some grace to say, “You’re not going to know everything all the time.” And I still, two-and-a-half years later, don’t know everything. Leadership is not about knowing everything.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (32:00):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:01):

Leadership is working in community with other people to achieve a common goal, and so I’m really grateful to everyone who welcomed us with open arms. And I will tell you, I think I felt more grounded in the transition once you felt more comfortable being here. So, I think a big part of transitions when you have a family are all the people who are transitioning with you.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (32:23):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:24):

So, it wasn’t until you got comfortable in your school and we got comfortable in our home that it truly felt like all the pieces were clicking. But yeah, it was tough to some degree, but also, like the pinch myself moments of when I walk into my office and I see a plaque over my door that says, “Vice President for Campus Life,” and you know, this is the job I wanted to be in when I grew up.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (32:43):

Right. This is surreal, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

Yeah, it is.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (32:46):

It’s like I’ve really made it. You’ve actually achieved pretty much all that you wanted to. Speaking of that, you are, again, rocking with the segues over here. How do you balance the demands of your work with just life in general because you do love your work, but there’s a lot that comes with it-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:02):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (33:02):

… so, how do you find the time to balance that between your work and then downtime?

Shea Kidd Brown (33:07):

Well, son, you know, I feel like we’re doing lots of life lessons right here. I just don’t think there’s a such thing as balance. I really connect to the idea of feeling grounded and feeling like there’s a sense of harmony integration because balance would assume that you’re kind of applying the same amount of time and energy to everything in your life, and that’s really not what balance is for me, I would say. I mentioned earlier boundaries are important. So, thinking about this season of my life is going to be extraordinarily full, as I say. I don’t use the word busy. We are all busy, but thinking about there are full days. And so, if I know this season of my life is going to be really full, I always have something to look forward to. You know, when we leave a trip, I usually put something else on the calendar and plan something-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (33:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:52):

… else, so that you can always … sometimes, psychologically just knowing, “Oh, I’ve got something in May …” I also very much believe you have helped me with grounding because, you know, having a son who’s watching my every move, who’s on the move himself, who’s-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (34:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

… now is making your own definition of the world. Even our most challenging issues at work, when I come home, you know, it’s about you. It’s about how was your day. How was track? Celebrating you when you have a great day, being there for you when your day is not great. And so, I think the sense of grounding helps you to really understand there is more to life than the things maybe that are consuming your brain. And so, you’ve been a big part of that.

(34:36):

And I also … values are really important to me, so family, my ethical values, the things that drive my decision-making. Any time those are off, then I feel off, so that’s a way for me to continue to check in with myself. And I have people around me, so anytime I’m feeling overwhelmed, or I’m tired, or stressed, or whatever that may be, I have people on campus and people who’ve been throughout my life that I can just call up. So I have normalized asking for help and being really in tune with my body. So, I carry my stress in my shoulders and then sort of anxiety in my tummy. (laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:09):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:10):

And my heart beats fast. I mean, some of these things are similar for all of us. But when I sort of check in with myself when I’m feeling overwhelmed and those kinds of things so that I can regulate it.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:19):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:20):

I mean, you watch me.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

So, how would you say you see me balancing or integrating?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:25):

I feel like you said everything. You kind of … obviously, there is no true balance with this. You’re always going to find something that outweighs the other.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:32):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:33):

But one thing doesn’t necessarily have to outweigh a specific thing every single time.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:37):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:37):

I feel like you find a good way of putting something above something else. And in that case, you kind of just try to find the harmony. It’s like-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:45):

It’s almost like rhythm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:45):

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:46):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:46):

I’m just glad you’ve, uh, gotten a feel for it, and you’re really in that stage of your life where you, you’ve worked-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:57):

Stage? Are you calling me old?

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:57):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (35:57):

(laughs) Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (35:57):

Where you have everything pretty much … not everything because I’m, I’m sure you don’t have everything. But you have a lot of stuff figured out right now.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:03):

Yeah, not everything.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:04):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (36:05):

It’s a journey, for sure.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:07):

Yeah. I’m just glad we’ve gotten to this point where we’re just happy right now.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:11):

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:11):

And we’re kind of just very, very calm. Not a whole lot of stuff is going on at the moment. Right now, we’re waiting for some news.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:18):

Yes!

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:19):

And, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

For our adoption news.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:20):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I feel like you find a really good way of calming down a situation when it needs to be calm, and it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Yeah, everything is not an emergency.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:27):

Yeah, exactly. I’m just really glad you’ve gotten to do that. We’re, uh, kind of on the back half of these segments right now, but so I just have one more before we close.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:35):

Okay.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:35):

And that’s what excites you about, about all the opportunities, and positions, and days ahead of you?

Shea Kidd Brown (36:41):

Well, I have so much to be excited for. I really do. Hearing you talk brings me a lot of joy because, you know, it was a journey for us to get here, and-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:49):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:50):

… you were a little salty, um-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (36:50):

Just a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:51):

… maybe still are. But I’m excited for your growth and development. You’re in ninth grade, and we’re able to have these really amazing conversations in our day-to-day. And, uh, you’re changing each day, and these days are fleeting, so I’m both a little nervous and excited about these next few years because I know they’re going to go by really fast. So that makes me a little nervous and maybe a little sad even, but I’m excited for you. You’re just beginning, so-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (37:15):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:15):

… I’m excited about … you referenced this a little bit, but we’re on an adoption journey, so the day-to-day of waiting is hard. It’s not something that comes naturally to me. I’m someone who likes to know things and-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (37:30):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:30):

… plan.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (37:31):

Where do I get that from? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (37:32):

Yeah, I don’t know. And so, this season … and I call it a season because seasons change. You transition, and grow, and evolve. And the whole not knowing and the waiting is tough, but I’m so excited to grow our family and to see you thrive as a big brother, so that’s exciting. I’m really excited about what’s to come this semester at work. Our students are working so hard, and our class of 2024 started in the fall of Covid, so being able to celebrate them and be able to think about all the things that they’ve accomplished over these last four years and the stories that they’ll be able to tell as a result. And it’s March, so I’m excited about March Madness and-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:10):

… all the opportunities from a basketball perspective. And I’m a glass-half-full kind of person. I wake up every day believing that each of us has something to contribute. As you know, I start every day with the same song, and-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:24):

Mm-hmm, every day.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:24):

(laughs) Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:24):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:25):

And so-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:26):

Unless it’s Sundays.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:26):

Yeah, that’s true.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:27):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:27):

But India Arie’s, “Beautiful Day” is so … like, those words are so powerful, how each day we have an opportunity to look at it whether it’s sunshine, cloudy. Each person has an ability to change the world, at least their world. So, you know, what’s not to be excited about-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:43):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:43):

… when you think of it that way.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:45):

Well, I’m very glad that I got to do this and just interview the woman behind all of-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:50):

You did so well.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:51):

Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m proud I got this opportunity because I would love to do this again. Maybe you’re in this chair. I’m in-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:56):

Yeah.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:56):

I’m in that chair.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:56):

That’s a good idea.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (38:58):

But I’m really glad that I got to do this, and I learned a lot more than I thought I would learn about you. But I hope everybody else learned some pretty neat stuff. Y’all should ask her about some of this stuff because-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:09):

Yeah, that’s-

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (39:09):

… she will tell you.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:10):

(laughs)

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (39:10):

But glad I got to do this, and, uh, it went well.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:10):

Yeah, I think it went great. Thank you.

Jack Wilson “JW” Houze (39:15):

No problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:16):

Okay. Now I have a new level of empathy for my guests. It is so nerve-wracking being on this side of things, but I hope you feel like you know a little bit about me and my story. And maybe you also got a glimpse into the relationship with my boy. He is pretty amazing. Thank you so much for listening. It really means a lot to me, and I hope you have a great week. Continue to lean into the hard work and the heart work.

Marianna Bailey (39:45):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the university’s Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m Marianna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 11: President Wente

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with the leader of our esteemed university, President Susan R. Wente. You’ll hear about how our guest’s upbringing in Iowa with her close-knit family shaped her values, how her choice to attend her first two years of university as an open major led to her delving deeper into her field of study, what her mentors and role as a resident advisor for two years taught her about leadership, what makes her role so special, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:04):

(00:31):

Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick. And how we have found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:49):

Hello, and thank you so much for joining us for Kidd You Not. Today I have the distinct pleasure of talking to the President of Wake Forest University and Distinguished University Professor of Biology and Biochemistry, who happens to be my boss. Before we jump in, I have to tell you about her. So many accomplishments, and if I listed them, it would be an episode in and of itself.

(01:12):

President Susan R. Wente joined Wake Forest as the 14th president, July of 2021. Early on, she shared her leadership philosophy of trust, transparency, and teamwork, and the importance of radical collaboration. These concepts permeate our campus climate as well as the work we do to embrace our motto, Pro Humanitate, for Humanity.

(01:34):

President Wente is an internationally renowned biomedical scientist and her discoveries have led to new medicines and treatments and have laid a foundation for her style of leadership. I have learned so much from her over the past two years and can’t wait to talk with her about her personal achievements in addition to what makes her tick and her unique story. So let’s get started. Hello and welcome.

Susan R. Wente (01:58):

Well, thank you. Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here with you. I love it.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:01):

Yeah, me too. How are you doing today?

Susan R. Wente (02:03):

Well, we’ve started the semester off and I’m just so excited and energized by having students back on campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:09):

Yes, me too. I learned from you that question. How are you doing?

Susan R. Wente (02:13):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:13):

A lot of times people will say how are you and we say fine and we keep going but you say how are you doing and I think that’s really, really important. So I’m so excited. You are a busy person. So to be able to have some dedicated time… We spend a lot of time together (laughs) talking about the student experience and overall the university vision. But today is really about you. And so, I know that makes you maybe a little bit uncomfortable, but… (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (02:37):

(laughs) It does, it does. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:39):

So we’re going to learn about who you are today and you know, there’s a place that I love to start when I’m meeting people. I’m not meeting you today, but that has to do with home. So that question is where’s home for you?

Susan R. Wente (02:51):

Always say an answer to that question that I grew up in Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:55):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (02:56):

In a really small town…

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (02:57):

… kind of in the northwest corner. Some might consider it in the middle of nowhere.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:01):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (03:02):

But, you know, that is where I learned so much and really got my initial perspective on so many things when I reflect back on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:12):

True that.

Susan R. Wente (03:13):

Didn’t know it then…

Shea Kidd Brown (03:13):

Of course.

Susan R. Wente (03:14):

… but that’s what I would say. Only my parents are still there for-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:18):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (03:18):

… half of the year in the summers.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (03:20):

They’re very, very smart. They’re snowbirds.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:22):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (03:22):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:23):

Right now, they’re not there, I’m guessing.

Susan R. Wente (03:24):

They are not there right now.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

Yeah, and what was your childhood like? What were you like as a child?

Susan R. Wente (03:30):

I call myself now a learned extrovert. I was the oldest of three.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (03:35):

And both my parents worked. My mother worked the entire time I was growing up as a nurse.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:39):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (03:40):

And so there was, you know, a lot of independence in that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:43):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (03:43):

But going back to calling myself a learned extrovert, my mom always tells a story about we moved to the town that I grew up in when I was starting second grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:52):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (03:53):

And it was around third grade or so that the teacher called her and said, “I’m worried about Susan.” And my mom was like, “Well, why? And the teacher said, “Well, she doesn’t want to go out on the playground at recess. She wants to go to the library…”

Shea Kidd Brown (04:06):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (04:06):

“… and help the librarian file books or to read by herself.” And so I loved reading.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:13):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (04:13):

Loved really taking care of my younger brothers or…

Shea Kidd Brown (04:16):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (04:16):

… you know, just…

Shea Kidd Brown (04:17):

Because you were the oldest.

Susan R. Wente (04:17):

Uh, because I was the oldest, cooking with my parents…

Shea Kidd Brown (04:19):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (04:20):

… and with my dad because…

Shea Kidd Brown (04:21):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (04:21):

… you know, my mom wasn’t home-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

She’s working.

Susan R. Wente (04:23):

… all the time because she was working. And that very focused family. And so I had great friends as I went through kind of growing up there.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:31):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (04:31):

But not the, you know, just focused on deep relationships-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:34):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (04:35):

… with, specific friends.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Specific people.

Susan R. Wente (04:37):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:37):

Well, and it’s that curiosity, it sounds like.

Susan R. Wente (04:40):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

You know, being able to read a book and learn. So it sounds like you’ve been a learner for a very long-

Susan R. Wente (04:46):

(laughs) Yes, that’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:46):

… part of your life and going back to that concept of home. Home is where you feel comfortable and maybe we can talk a little bit about that learning of extroversion. Did that come later in life or was that after your teacher’s intervention (laughs) or…

Susan R. Wente (04:58):

(laughs) Well, I actually think a lot of that came, in part, when I was in high school and I was in debate…

Shea Kidd Brown (05:05):

Oh, yes.

Susan R. Wente (05:06):

… and I was in theater.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

Yes.

Susan R. Wente (05:09):

… and I was in the choir.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:09):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (05:10):

And I think that I learned things from those experiences that let me still be who I am.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (05:16):

But then when I’m with others, or when I’m, you know, I don’t want (laughs) to say on a stage or interacting…

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (05:24):

… I can still tap into what I learned there.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (05:26):

You know, in middle school, I was not an athlete, although I did cheerleading for two years.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

Oh, I didn’t realize that.

Susan R. Wente (05:33):

Yeah, I did-.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

I was cheerleader too.

Susan R. Wente (05:33):

You know, and then you say, “Well, gosh, how are you an introvert if you’re cheering?” But it was such a small town.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:36):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (05:36):

It was kind of a thing to do too.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (05:39):

You know, I remember in fifth or sixth grade, you know, okay, everybody has to go out in the spring and you’ve gotta run this many laps around the track.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:47):

Mm-Hmm.

Susan R. Wente (05:47):

And, you know, you have to be timed and, and I talked myself into being the timer.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:53):

Oh.

Susan R. Wente (05:53):

You know? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:53):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (05:53):

So I sat on the table and-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

… hold everybody else-

Susan R. Wente (05:55):

… timed, and timed everyone.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

Yeah. That’s funny. Well, and you said something really important that I wanna pull out a little bit. You said you value deep relationships. And I think there’s just a bias around extroversion and introversion. It’s how we get our energy.

Susan R. Wente (06:08):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

But that deep relationship is such a strength because a lot of times if you’re a socialite and you’re getting to know everybody, you’re not getting to know the people to the core. Does that resonate with you?

Susan R. Wente (06:19):

It, it does. It resonates very, very deeply with me.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:21):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (06:21):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:21):

So you said you have two brothers.

Susan R. Wente (06:23):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:23):

Your dynamic was, it sounded like you were the leader. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (06:27):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

Keeping everybody together. But what was that dynamic like with two brothers?

Susan R. Wente (06:31):

Pretty close in age.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:32):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (06:33):

We were two years apart in school. When I reflect back on it, it could have been intentional or unintentional, we each kind of struck out our own non-overlapping set of… (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:44):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (06:44):

… things that we focused on being good at or excelling at or participating in.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (06:49):

My brother, who is one year younger than me, he was a state golf golfer.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

Oh, wow.

Susan R. Wente (06:54):

He played on the football team…

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (06:55):

… basketball team.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:56):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (06:57):

He was very much a student athlete…

Shea Kidd Brown (06:58):

The athlete.

Susan R. Wente (06:59):

… in that way. And he played on Iowa’s golf team.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Nice.

Susan R. Wente (07:01):

And then my younger brother, David, he was, you know, swimming and tennis and choir.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:08):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:08):

I mean, we just had different extracurricular-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:10):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (07:10):

… focuses.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:11):

Which I think was part of our being close in age and in a really small town…

Shea Kidd Brown (07:17):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:17):

… distinct identities.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:18):

Right. That was important.

Susan R. Wente (07:19):

But I grew very fast. I mean, I’m 5’9 now.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

Yes.

Susan R. Wente (07:22):

In middle school, in eighth and ninth grade, I was 5’9…

Shea Kidd Brown (07:24):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:25):

… which is why my dad wanted me to try basketball.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:27):

Right. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (07:28):

It lasted (laughs) for on the B team, for not very long.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:30):

Yes, I was never encouraged to do basketball. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (07:33):

(laughs) so, you know, so I remember coming home from college and you know, they had grown.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:40):

And I was like, “Oh my gosh.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:41):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (07:42):

“They’re taller than me now.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Because boys peak so…

Susan R. Wente (07:43):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:44):

… at such different times.

Susan R. Wente (07:45):

Bu- but we’re very close.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (07:46):

And we were, you know, very close growing up, too, in that way. Yeah, there was a real service orientation and work ethic…

Shea Kidd Brown (07:54):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:54):

… in our family…

Shea Kidd Brown (07:54):

In your family

Susan R. Wente (07:55):

… growing up. We all had our list of chores on Saturday morning to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:59):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (07:59):

But then we also all had jobs. Before I was 14, whether it was babysitting…

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (08:04):

… or mowing lawns, or, you know, we all did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (08:06):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

… it teaches you so much.

Susan R. Wente (08:08):

It does.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

Especially that young.

Susan R. Wente (08:09):

It does. And then I’ve written about this, detasseling corn…

Shea Kidd Brown (08:13):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (08:13):

… walking soybeans in the summer…

Shea Kidd Brown (08:14):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (08:15):

… working on the farms.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:16):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (08:16):

As soon as you could get a job for pay at a business…

Shea Kidd Brown (08:20):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (08:20):

I got a job at the A&W…

Shea Kidd Brown (08:22):

Oh, yes.

Susan R. Wente (08:23):

… All four years in high school, and then the summer between my first year and second year in college, I went back.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:28):

That-

Susan R. Wente (08:29):

That was one of the jobs. I had two jobs that summer, but my parents really instilled in us that deep work ethic.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (08:34):

And that was, in part, from their own backgrounds…

Shea Kidd Brown (08:37):

That’s right.

Susan R. Wente (08:38):

… in terms of how the importance of both education and hard work.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Mm-hmm. And work. And the restaurant business, too.

Susan R. Wente (08:42):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:43):

You learn so much (laughs) about…

Susan R. Wente (08:45):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

… service and what that means and what it means to have interpersonal skills, even when the person on the other end may not have those skills. So that is important. As you know, I have a 15-year-old. So those are the things that we’re talking about right now is. “There’s duties and responsibilities that are training you for later in life.”

Susan R. Wente (09:04):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

And I’d love that y’all had distinct but connected interests like your brother David…

Susan R. Wente (09:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

… also had the arts. So debate. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (09:11):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:12):

I do want to talk about debate. So what are some of the things you learned from being a part of the debate team in high school?

Susan R. Wente (09:19):

Well, those were my bestest, bestest friends…

Shea Kidd Brown (09:21):

Yeah…

Susan R. Wente (09:21):

… too because you spend-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:22):

… you so much time.

Susan R. Wente (09:23):

… so much, so much time together and you learned how to do research and think about a topic deeply.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:29):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (09:30):

I learned, you know, logic-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:31):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (09:31):

… in terms of arguments.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Absolutely.

Susan R. Wente (09:34):

I learned how to develop a hypothesis…

Shea Kidd Brown (09:36):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (09:37):

… and then present it, defend it.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:39):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (09:39):

Now, my husband, of course, said, if he ever known, when he started-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:41):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (09:42):

… (laughs) dating me…

Shea Kidd Brown (09:43):

… that you were a debater?

Susan R. Wente (09:44):

… that I was a debater, he may have thought about it twice. (laughs) But often people say, “Oh, why’d you go into science…

Shea Kidd Brown (09:50):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (09:50):

… after being a debater? Because a lot of-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:51):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (09:52):

… people who do debate end up more in public policy.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:54):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (09:54):

My best friend, she went to law school.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:56):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (09:57):

And really, when I learned about science research, I was like, “Well, this is just, like…”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

Quite similar.

Susan R. Wente (10:02):

“… what I was doing in debate. You know, research everything that had happened in the past.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:06):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (10:06):

You had a problem, you were trying to…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:07):

… solve it.

Susan R. Wente (10:08):

… solve for or pose solutions to.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:10):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (10:10):

And then you were making your case for your model or how you were testing your hypothesis.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:16):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (10:16):

So I actually found a huge amount of similarities…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:20):

… connectivity.

Susan R. Wente (10:22):

… and connectivity between those.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:23):

Yeah. As you were talking about debate, I was thinking scientific method.

Susan R. Wente (10:27):

You know…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

There are a lot of things that you were saying there. Were you interested in the sciences in high school or did that happen later? Was that-

Susan R. Wente (10:33):

I was interested in the sciences. I knew I did well in the sciences and-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

They were taking-

Susan R. Wente (10:36):

… some classes that were offered. My mom was a nurse, as I-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:39):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (10:40):

… like I mentioned. And so from all the dinner table conversations…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (10:42):

… I knew I, I picked up on a lot and it was like, I didn’t want to be a nurse. And I didn’t think I could be a doctor. I mean, part of this is what you see in your community…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (10:51):

… where you’re growing up…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Sure.

Susan R. Wente (10:52):

… and what are your role models.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (10:56):

And there were no scientists. There were no biochemists…

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (10:58):

… type of thing. And the physicians were all people who had been there for my entire lifetime.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:03):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (11:04):

And they were all wonderful men, many of whom supported me and helped me as I was later along in my career in terms of encouraging me.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (11:11):

But I didn’t think that, that was a career path.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:14):

Yeah, you didn’t see it reflected.

Susan R. Wente (11:15):

No. But I knew I was going to pick probably something that required scientific content or background.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:20):

Mm-hmm. And that takes me to college. So I’m thinking about University of Iowa, and you started as a pre-dental hygienist track.

Susan R. Wente (11:27):

Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:27):

Tell me a little bit about that. I’ve heard that story before, but how you started there and then maybe-

Susan R. Wente (11:32):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:32):

… how you transitioned-

Susan R. Wente (11:33):

Right. I mean I-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:33):

… into the course of study.

Susan R. Wente (11:34):

I always also emphasize that, you know, how did I get from my small town-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:38):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (11:38):

… in northwest Iowa to the University of Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:40):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (11:41):

… which is a four and a half hour drive. You’re talking to a lot of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:44):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (11:44):

And you’ve talked to our coach, Steve Forbes, who also grew up in Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:48):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (11:48):

Right outside of Iowa city. So for me, that was a long-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:52):

That was a big deal.

Susan R. Wente (11:53):

… a long distance to go. There might have been myself and one other person who went straight to University of Iowa-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:58):

Wow.

Susan R. Wente (11:58):

… but I was able to go there because of a scholarship.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (12:01):

And so that scholarship coming really solidified in my parents’ mind that…

Shea Kidd Brown (12:06):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (12:07):

… “Okay, you can.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:07):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (12:08):

… versus staying and going to the community college…

Shea Kidd Brown (12:10):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (12:10):

… or going more locally.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Absolutely. We talk a lot about access and-

Susan R. Wente (12:14):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:14):

… so that’s such a ne- great example of…

Susan R. Wente (12:16):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:16):

… you may have had a different pathway, which may have still been a great pathway…

Susan R. Wente (12:19):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:20):

… but this created an open door.

Susan R. Wente (12:22):

Right. So that scholarship, along with Pell grants, I was a Pell student…

Shea Kidd Brown (12:26):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (12:26):

… along with loans and along with working in college…

Shea Kidd Brown (12:29):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (12:29):

… let me go there. But I did arrive there as a pre-dental hygiene major…

Shea Kidd Brown (12:32):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (12:32):

… because to me that was, okay, it requires science and it’s not a nurse.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:35):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (12:36):

And I can get a job in four years.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:38):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (12:38):

Which was also very practical…

Shea Kidd Brown (12:40):

Sure.

Susan R. Wente (12:40):

… in terms of graduate in four years and-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:42):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (12:43):

… what’s going to be your job.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:43):

Have some stability.

Susan R. Wente (12:43):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (12:43):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (12:45):

And that lasted about two weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:46):

Okay. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (12:47):

(laughs) Not because of my learning about pre-dental hygiene and saying, “Oh gosh, no, I don’t want to do that.” It was really in the part of this story that I really emphasize it is from advisors who didn’t even know me at the University of Iowa, looking at my record and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (13:03):

… encouraging me to go open major. And that’s kind of the long story short-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:06):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (13:07):

… type of thing. There’s a lot of other layers of course but the long story short is they said, “If you still want to be a dental hygienist, you can…”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (13:14):

“… but why don’t you go open major?”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:15):

Yes. Stay curious.

Susan R. Wente (13:16):

And they, somehow, and I can be this message too, I was receptive to that advice. I could have said, “No…”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:21):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (13:21):

“… I wanna be-“

Shea Kidd Brown (13:21):

“I’m on this.” Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (13:22):

“… I’m on pre-dental hygiene major track. That’s what I’m doing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:25):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (13:25):

Instead. I said, “Okay.” And I went down to the open major office and met with an advisor who changed all my classes. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:30):

Wow.

Susan R. Wente (13:33):

And changed, you know, instead of chemistry for dental hygiene and nursing, changed me into chemistry for majors.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:38):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (13:38):

Put me in calculus.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:40):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (13:40):

You know, I had to change another class I was in just because of those time. I somehow turned over my trust…

Shea Kidd Brown (13:45):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (13:46):

… to them…

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (13:46):

… without a large, I would say, like, amount of time with them.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:49):

Right, I was gonna say.

Susan R. Wente (13:51):

I mean, in one meeting and you’re changing my whole course schedule.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

But you were open, it sounds like.

Susan R. Wente (13:55):

I was open to that advice.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:55):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (13:56):

And I was open to, “Okay, try it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:56):

Mm-hmm. And that’s what we encourage our students.

Susan R. Wente (13:58):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:59):

It’s wonderful to hear that that was part of your process because college does create this stress at some places…

Susan R. Wente (14:06):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:07):

… of you got to have it all figured out, or at least the perception that you have to have all figured out from day one. And that is one of the things that I really love about Wake Forest and hearing your experience, that curiosity that remaining open, because we think we know everything at 18, (laughs) but we are just beginning to learn…

Susan R. Wente (14:23):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:23):

… who we are, what our strengths are. It sounds like someone saw your strengths, at least on your transcript… (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (14:27):

Right. Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

… and on your record to say, “Hey, you may wanna think about…”

Susan R. Wente (14:31):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:32):

… some other options.

Susan R. Wente (14:33):

Yeah. It did really give me the opportunity to think broadly.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:37):

Sure.

Susan R. Wente (14:38):

And, and to learn and discover things that I never knew were even…

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

… possible.

Susan R. Wente (14:41):

… possible career tracks, if you want to call it that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (14:43):

This open major advisor, you know, she basically said, “You’re not going to declare your major until your sophomore year.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:48):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (14:48):

And then when we got to that point, she said, “Okay, you’ve got to go meet with at least…” I can’t remember the number, just make it up.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:55):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (14:55):

Meet with 10 undergraduate major advisors, because she didn’t want me rushing into a decision.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:01):

Mm-hmm. What a gift.

Susan R. Wente (15:01):

And so, now I don’t think I made it all the way through the list…

Shea Kidd Brown (15:03):

Right. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (15:04):

… before I know. With the biochemistry undergraduate major advisor and he got-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:08):

That’s where you felt at home.

Susan R. Wente (15:09):

That’s where I said, “Okay, this sounds like the right path.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:12):

That’s great. And did you know at that point that you would pursue teaching long term or were you just kind of step by step…

Susan R. Wente (15:19):

It was-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:19):

… biochemistry.

Susan R. Wente (15:20):

It was step by step.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:21):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (15:22):

Step by step biochemistry. I knew I loved science. I then got experiences in research laboratories.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:27):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (15:27):

And I’m like, “Oh, I really liked doing research.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:28):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (15:29):

And I did try to keep all doors open.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:31):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (15:31):

But, you know, when I was a senior and this really happens more than your junior spring semester, it was I going to go as so many of the biochemistry majors were pre-med…

Shea Kidd Brown (15:40):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (15:40):

… or was I going to go to grad school?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:42):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (15:42):

And I took the MCAT.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:44):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (15:44):

And I took the GREs.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Okay. Continued to leave those doors open?

Susan R. Wente (15:48):

Continued to leave those doors open. And doing honors research with a faculty member in biochemistry, but they also encouraged me to go somewhere else for the summer. And in my own way, it was like, “Okay, that way I’ll know, do I like research for research’s sake versus-“

Shea Kidd Brown (16:02):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (16:03):

“… I like research because I’m here in this place where I feel really safe-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:06):

… comfortable.

Susan R. Wente (16:07):

“… and comfortable?”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:07):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (16:07):

And in that day, there weren’t as many summer research opportunities as there are today.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:11):

Uh-huh. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (16:12):

Really the only ones that I found to apply to were at National Labs.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:16):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (16:16):

And so I applied to all of those and I ended up getting accepted into Brookhaven National Lab…

Shea Kidd Brown (16:20):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (16:20):

which is on Long Island.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

Okay. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (16:23):

Which was a huge adventure…

Shea Kidd Brown (16:25):

Yeah, (laughs) big difference.

Susan R. Wente (16:26):

… and a huge trip.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:27):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (16:28):

Um, I had never been to New York.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:29):

Uh-huh.

Susan R. Wente (16:29):

And so I went and lived on Long Island for the summer.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:32):

Wow.

Susan R. Wente (16:32):

A cohort of about 25…

Shea Kidd Brown (16:33):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (16:35):

… other…

Shea Kidd Brown (16:36):

From all over the country.

Susan R. Wente (16:38):

From all over the country. Largely the Northeast. And learned that I loved research. And came back to campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:43):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (16:43):

And applied to five PhD programs and one MD PhD program.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

Okay, still leaving the options open.

Susan R. Wente (16:51):

And the MD PhD program, I tell people was, I mean, it left the option open. It was also to just delay telling my parents-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:55):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (16:55):

… I wasn’t going to go to med school. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:57):

Okay. (laughs) Hey, that’s strategic. That’s strategic. I love hearing about that journey, consistent thread of keeping your options open. Now, I also know in addition to being deeply committed to academics. You were very involved and engaged on campus.

Susan R. Wente (17:13):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:14):

I know that you still have your RA T-shirts.

Susan R. Wente (17:16):

I do, I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

So tell me about the RA experience.

Susan R. Wente (17:20):

Well, when I was a first year student living in Burge Hall, which was nicknamed the zoo. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:27):

(laughs) Okay.

Susan R. Wente (17:28):

And it was huge. Like, I don’t know, over 4,000 students had-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:28):

Oh, God.

Susan R. Wente (17:29):

It was just more students in it than people in my hometown, I used to joke and say .

Shea Kidd Brown (17:32):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (17:32):

I got involved in residence hall student government and that gave me a really an insight into residence hall life and working with all the people in residence life-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:43):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (17:44):

… and housing.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:44):

Got in some of the operations.

Susan R. Wente (17:45):

That’s right. And then seeing the role that RAs played…

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (17:49):

… in terms of helping students and mentoring students in that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:52):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (17:53):

And at Iowa, you, all the RAs were juniors and seniors.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:56):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (17:56):

So I stayed involved in student government my first two years, and I applied to be an RA for my junior and senior year.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:02):

Wow.

Susan R. Wente (18:03):

And, of course, there were the benefits in terms of, you know, free room and board.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:06):

Yeah, absolutely.

Susan R. Wente (18:06):

… which added into my overall strategy for paying for college.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:10):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (18:10):

But it was more so, you know, really mentoring and leading…

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (18:14):

… a group of young women…

Shea Kidd Brown (18:15):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (18:16):

… on that floor, those two different floors in Reno Hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:18):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (18:18):

And I really loved doing that.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:22):

Do you remember your RA? Like, your first and senior years?

Susan R. Wente (18:25):

You know, I don’t remember distinctly my first year RA.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:28):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (18:28):

I do remember my second year RA.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:30):

Yeah, when you’ve talked a lot about mentorship, you’ve written about it.

Susan R. Wente (18:33):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

So that may be a good place for us to go next…

Susan R. Wente (18:36):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:37):

… in terms of thinking about some of those people who shaped you and whether that’s in college or later in your career, but we have a collegial relationship, but you naturally, even on our way here, tell listeners, I picked your brain about something. So I really appreciate that you serve in that capacity in many different ways to our students, to the faculty and staff. But who are those people for you?

Susan R. Wente (18:59):

Oh, I have so many mentors and so many people that I’m indebted to…

Shea Kidd Brown (19:03):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (19:03):

… for where I am. Sometimes I feel like I leave people out of the story…

Shea Kidd Brown (19:08):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (19:08):

… by telling the story. Of course, my debate coach in high school had a really significant impact. And then when I got to college, I would say that it was when I was in the biochemistry department.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:18):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (19:18):

Alice Fulton, who was the person I did my honors research with and Peter Rubenstein, who was the faculty member in the lab next door.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:24):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (19:25):

And Gene Lotta, who was the biochemistry undergraduate advisor. All three of them really encouraged me to aim higher, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (19:35):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (19:35):

So in other words, you can often think about this kind of, you know, confidence gap.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:39):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (19:39):

And if I look back, I think, you know, well, there were certainly aspects of, “I’m going to go to the University of Iowa and I’m from this really small town.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:46):

Right. Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (19:46):

“There’s no way I can compete with all these other students from Chicago and Des Moines and the big cities.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:52):

Right. And who are accustomed to travel and all those things.

Susan R. Wente (19:56):

Exactly. Exactly. And so, the, you know, they’ve really helped me aim higher…

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (19:58):

… and build my confidence.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:59):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (20:00):

And I wouldn’t say it’s one thing that helps build your confidence. It’s a set of things.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:04):

Of course.

Susan R. Wente (20:04):

And you can be a really, really great student…

Shea Kidd Brown (20:07):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (20:07):

… in terms of your grades, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you have the confidence in terms of-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:11):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (20:11):

… how you’re thinking about-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:12):

… you can do it. Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (20:12):

… steps and what you can do.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:14):

And we have these internal voices, you know…

Susan R. Wente (20:20):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:20):

… based on a bringing-

Susan R. Wente (20:20):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:20):

… lived experience. I very much connect to that.

Susan R. Wente (20:20):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:20):

I remember being at the University of Southern Mississippi, and it was, you know, 15,000 students, not huge, but compared to my class size (laughs) of just over 100, I felt like, “Oh, am I going to be successful?” And I was into junior year thinking, “Oh, when’s the other shoe going to drop?” And having those people to say, “You got this.”

Susan R. Wente (20:38):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:38):

“You can do this.”

Susan R. Wente (20:39):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:39):

It may be hard at times-

Susan R. Wente (20:40):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:40):

… but you can aim higher.

Susan R. Wente (20:42):

Right. They played a big role in where I applied…

Shea Kidd Brown (20:44):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (20:45):

… to go to graduate school. I remember when I decided to go to Berkeley, Peter Rubinstein, who had been an undergrad at Berkeley, came walking through…

Shea Kidd Brown (20:52):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (20:52):

… Alyssa’s research lab with radio or tape player on his shoulder playing-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (20:56):

… the Berkeley fight song on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Oh. Perfect (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (20:59):

(laughs) You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

So battle match.

Susan R. Wente (21:00):

And they remained really close and still in contact with them in many different ways over my entire career.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:06):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (21:07):

But I really think back about they’re taking a really, really large university and creating a small environment. There were 30 some Bachelor of Science Biochemistry majors.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:16):

Mm-hmm. That became…

Susan R. Wente (21:16):

So faculty knew all of us.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:18):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (21:19):

You know, we were there all the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:20):

All the time, especially having that experiential learning of the lab.

Susan R. Wente (21:23):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

You get those side conversations, start to get to know people.

Susan R. Wente (21:27):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

… and their experience. And in addition to mentoring, you know, you talk some about your professors. You’re a mentor and you’re also a teacher at heart. And (laughs) my very first witnessing for this was with my own son. For listeners, we were at a dinner table, I was interviewing and family was involved and we started talking about science. My son said, “So tell me which came first, the chicken or the egg?” (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (21:53):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (21:53):

And then, I don’t know if you want to finish that story.

Susan R. Wente (21:55):

I know, I know, I, I turned to him and I said, “You know, it’s not the first time I’ve been asked that question.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:58):

(laughs) Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (21:59):

“The last time was by a group of third graders who were on a field trip and going through my research lab.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (22:06):

And a young student asked me, you know, as I was going through, kind of diagramming out on a whiteboard, one-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:11):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (22:12):

… cell, for example, and it divides, and you have two, and then the two to four, and the four to eight. And I still remember her raising her hand and saying, which came first?

Shea Kidd Brown (22:20):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (22:21):

Where did the first cell come from?

Shea Kidd Brown (22:22):

… come from?

Susan R. Wente (22:23):

And in terms of teaching, and I haven’t mentioned this, my dad was a teacher.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (22:27):

And so, he was one of 11 children, and went into-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:30):

11?

Susan R. Wente (22:32):

Yes, one of 11…

Shea Kidd Brown (22:32):

Wow. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (22:33):

… in a small town in Nebraska. All of his brothers and himself went into the military when they graduated from high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:38):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (22:39):

That’s what they did. He was the only one to use the GI Bill to go to-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:43):

… to college.

Susan R. Wente (22:43):

… to college. And the only one of 11 to get a college degree.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:45):

Wow.

Susan R. Wente (22:46):

And so in addition to my mom getting a nursing degree at a hospitalist training program, instilling that how education can-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:53):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (22:53):

… give you so many opportunities.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:54):

So many opportunities.

Susan R. Wente (22:55):

And he taught junior high and high school and then community college.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:58):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (22:59):

And, and he kept going back to school all the time, getting from his bachelor’s degree…

Shea Kidd Brown (23:02):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:02):

… to his master’s degree to eventually his EDD…

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:05):

… and leadership roles in the community college…

Shea Kidd Brown (23:07):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (23:08):

… in our hometown. Nurses are teachers too.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:10):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:10):

Right? They’re teaching you how to care for yourself. So I grew up in a home that highly valued that too.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:14):

Right. Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:15):

And when you’re an RA, you’re teaching people-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:16):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (23:17):

… how to take care of themselves. But when I went off to graduate school, of course I had the opportunity to TA.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:22):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:22):

You know, kind of the, you know, I don’t want to call it the first experiences in terms of really doing that and in a large state university…

Shea Kidd Brown (23:28):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (23:28):

… the TAs are in the classroom.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:29):

They are.

Susan R. Wente (23:31):

Really enjoyed that and, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:32):

Yeah. What did you like most?

Susan R. Wente (23:33):

Well, one, it was that you were seeing people learn something for the first time.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:38):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:38):

And they’re kind of beginning to fall in love with what you love. I look at teaching and any type of brainstorming, as you call it, being a thought partner is a two-way street.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:49):

Right, right.

Susan R. Wente (23:49):

Because over my career, I think I’ve learned as much from my students as they have…

Shea Kidd Brown (23:54):

Sure.

Susan R. Wente (23:54):

… probably learned from me.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:55):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (23:56):

So I love teaching because of those questions.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:58):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (23:58):

Like the questions that J. W. asked me.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:00):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (24:01):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:01):

Your son.

Susan R. Wente (24:01):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:02):

The question that third grade student asked me.

Susan R. Wente (24:04):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:04):

Right?

Susan R. Wente (24:05):

And it also helps you when you have to practice how to explain these things…

Shea Kidd Brown (24:08):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (24:09):

… that are also very ingrained in your brain.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:11):

Right. That learning process when you’re teaching is always active.

Susan R. Wente (24:14):

Fundamentally comes down to whether it was teaching in a classroom or teaching in a research lab…

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (24:21):

I really feel that I can make discoveries myself as a scientist, but my real impact on science and discoveries is the fact that if I have 10 students in a classroom and they all go become scientists, they’re going to make-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:34):

… their discoveries.

Susan R. Wente (24:34):

… their discoveries. So it’s this magnifying effect. This-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

Yeah. That just gave me chills. Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (24:39):

You know that, “Well, it’s not just my discoveries.” You know, it’s the discoveries of-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:42):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (24:42):

… every single person that you’ve helped-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:44):

Right. It’s like this…

Susan R. Wente (24:45):

… go on a discovery pathway.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:46):

… ripple effect. Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (24:47):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:47):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (24:47):

And, and it magnifies-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:48):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (24:48):

… that impact.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (24:49):

And that gives me a lot of energy.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:51):

Yeah, I love the idea of, I am one person, that then if there’s 10 people in a room, and they have the impact on…

Susan R. Wente (24:57):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

… 20 peop- twe- it’s almost like the cells, you know?

Susan R. Wente (25:01):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:01):

You know me.

Susan R. Wente (25:02):

I just said that, yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

I don’t do well with biology references, but I just did one successfully.

Susan R. Wente (25:05):

You did. You did. Way to go, Shea. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:09):

So you’ve had and continue to have such an incredible career. And what I know you also is that there’s a deep connection to things that aren’t related to work. (laughs) So, you know, being a college president is very complicated. How do you find harmony…

Susan R. Wente (25:25):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:26):

… (laughs) with work and life and life and work? Are there hobbies you like or things you like? You don’t have downtime.

Susan R. Wente (25:35):

I don’t. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:35):

But I’m thinking, when you have less going on, are there things that you lean into that allow you to reset and refocus?

Susan R. Wente (25:42):

Well, for a long period of time, that is, you know, in terms of being my family-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:46):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (25:47):

… right? In terms of-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:47):

Yeah, we haven’t talked about your daughters.

Susan R. Wente (25:49):

I don’t want to say it’s being a wife and a mother…

Shea Kidd Brown (25:50):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (25:50):

… but it is what my husband and I do together, what, for the years when we were raising them.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:56):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (25:56):

You know, that focus on, I used to say, what are your hobbies? And it’s like, my daughters…

Shea Kidd Brown (25:59):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (26:00):

My hobbies are going to volleyball matches, (laughs) right?

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (26:03):

You know, I didn’t have hobbies.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Right. It was about them.

Susan R. Wente (26:06):

And I, I don’t get as much time for all of this now but I love gardens.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:10):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (26:11):

And this could go back to my kind of agrarian Iowan where we had family gardens.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (26:16):

Every tomato I ate, my mom had canned herself. And then I always had to call her when I was in graduate school and I’d be like, “Mom, the recipe didn’t work.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:22):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (26:23):

And I’d be like, “Well, there’s a difference between a can of tomatoes and…” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

Store bought. Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (26:28):

But, you know, I love flowers and-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:29):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (26:29):

… gardening and tomatoes and gardening. We have a tomato garden.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:33):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (26:33):

We also grow peppers and cucumbers and basil.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

And do you can as well?

Susan R. Wente (26:38):

No, freeze.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:39):

Okay. Okay.

Susan R. Wente (26:40):

Innovation. Innovation, so, yes. Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:42):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (26:43):

You know, I’ll go out on a early Saturday morning-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:45):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (26:46):

… to pick the tomatoes or the wheat around the bottom.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:48):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (26:49):

It, it gives me a connection-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:50):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (26:51):

… that way back to my-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:52):

… roots.

Susan R. Wente (26:52):

… roots, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (26:52):

And something about just nature, you know?

Susan R. Wente (26:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:57):

It does that. And it is, like, something about getting your hands in the ground.

Susan R. Wente (26:59):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:00):

And the farm to table a- aspects of that…

Susan R. Wente (27:02):

Yeah. We love cooking.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:02):

… that you’ve described.

Susan R. Wente (27:03):

When I met my husband, he had cookbooks. On our first date, he cooked for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:07):

Oh.

Susan R. Wente (27:07):

So cook dinner for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:08):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (27:08):

Pesto pasta.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Nice.

Susan R. Wente (27:10):

So that’s also. In terms of food and cooking is something that… We love travel.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:15):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (27:16):

And we love the outdoors, you know, going for walks.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (27:19):

Or a lot of our travel has been to national parks…

Shea Kidd Brown (27:22):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (27:22):

… and really hikes and I no longer sleep on the ground.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:25):

No. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (27:31):

No. Like, there’s a rule. There’s like, at some point-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:31):

There are certain rules. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (27:31):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:31):

Yes, I love that. What’s your favorite meal since y’all love to cook? Asking favorites. What’s one of your favorite?

Susan R. Wente (27:36):

Oh, my gosh. Any pasta that my husband makes.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:38):

Okay.

Susan R. Wente (27:39):

And then we have a wood burning pizza oven that we love to-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:41):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (27:41):

… have students over for. And he loves cooking that too, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:45):

He’s really perfected the pizza making. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (27:49):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

I love it. And it’s important. I think it’s important for people to hear that no matter how full your days may be, it’s important to have those moments, those births of something else that can occupy the world. I get a sense, I get some of the bits and pieces of your job, but what’s most challenging for you in this role?

Susan R. Wente (28:08):

I would say the things that you do not have control over.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:12):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (28:13):

And that you have to adapt in real time, say, that are surprises.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:18):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (28:19):

And many of those are from external-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:21):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (28:21):

… influences in that regard. And so, people assuming what’s happening on your campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:26):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (28:26):

… versus what’s really-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

… actually happening.

Susan R. Wente (28:28):

… happening on your campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:29):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (28:29):

So I think that’s the biggest challenge is your message.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (28:33):

And being sure that internally and you being the communications major…

Shea Kidd Brown (28:37):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (28:37):

… we often talk about this too, communications is a challenge in terms of how are you ensuring that everyone has access and-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:45):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (28:46):

… is understanding and has ways to give input.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:49):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (28:49):

And feedback loops.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

Yep.

Susan R. Wente (28:50):

So that takes a lot of effort, and which is what kind of takes me back to those three T’s. Why did I pick those-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:55):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (28:56):

… three T’s of trust, transparency, and teamwork? Because I think, you know, it’s challenging to build trust and to maintain trust, but it is-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:02):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (29:02):

… the most important thing in leadership.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:04):

It is.

Susan R. Wente (29:05):

And so, you need to build that trust through transparency-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:08):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (29:09):

… and accountability, which is communication.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:12):

Mm-hmm. Very true.

Susan R. Wente (29:12):

And then teamwork by really involving…

Shea Kidd Brown (29:14):

… all the people.

Susan R. Wente (29:15):

… all the work that you’re doing.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:17):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it can be people, say it’s lonely at the top, it can be, and I think it’s point about the challenge being, not what was on your calendar going into work, but those unexpected things are the external forces. And I immediately went to teamwork in my brain when you said that, because that’s when you don’t have to be alone at your desk, (laughs) but you can say, “Okay, team.” And you do…

Susan R. Wente (29:36):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

“How are we going to solve this?” You also talk about people. How are the people taken care of as we’re navigating this uncharted territory. And I think that’s really important. Things are chaotic. Higher Ed is, I’m sure we say this at every juncture, it’s more complicated than it’s ever been, but it’s people. If you have good relationships with people when you’re in community, then you can tackle it together.

Susan R. Wente (29:58):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:59):

Is that what you found?

Susan R. Wente (30:00):

Oh, absolutely. Those who you’re working with are the most important aspects of navigating any particular situation. Whether it’s strategic visioning-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:09):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (30:09):

… or whether it’s crisis management.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:11):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (30:11):

And so, you know, building a great team, I feel incredibly fortunate to have such amazing leaders here at Wake Forest to work with. That gives me energy.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:21):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (30:21):

That gives me inspiration and lots of confidence.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (30:25):

Right. In terms of how we’re really positioned. I think Wake Forest is really positioned uniquely…

Shea Kidd Brown (30:29):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (30:29):

… in that regard. But I do always try to ensure that we’re thinking about our why.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Yes.

Susan R. Wente (30:35):

And you probably heard me say…

Shea Kidd Brown (30:36):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (30:37):

… “Why are we here?”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:38):

Yeah, absolutely.

Susan R. Wente (30:39):

And the student centric aspect, our learning, our teaching-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:42):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (30:43):

… our scholarship, our research, why are we here?

Shea Kidd Brown (30:46):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (30:46):

And that has to ground us all the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:49):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (30:49):

I think, I don’t shy away from challenges.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:52):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (30:52):

I think that being a leader in a time of great challenge is when you’re most needed.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:57):

That is very true. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (30:58):

Versus if it’s a time of prosperity… (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (31:02):

Right. (laughs) A lot of people can do that.

Susan R. Wente (31:03):

A lot of people can do that. And I get other types of satisfaction about finding solutions to problems.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:09):

Right. Well, I was going to ask you on the flip side of the challenge, what excites you? And I think you’ve answered that… (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (31:13):

Yes. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (31:14):

… in terms of the challenges and being able to provide. And it goes back to scientific method…

Susan R. Wente (31:21):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:21):

… of different problem solving. But is there anything else you would add to what excites you about…

Susan R. Wente (31:25):

What excites me about my role is when you see those students graduating and what they’re going to go off and do and how excited they are when you’re welcoming new students and families-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (31:35):

… to campus and they’re so excited to be here.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:38):

We’ve gotten to do that together for the two falls.

Susan R. Wente (31:41):

You just can’t help but know why you’re here.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:42):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (31:43):

And it kind of goes back to kind of the first question you asked me even at the beginning of this podcast. I’ll be out and people will say, “Well, you know, how’s it going?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:49):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (31:49):

They’ll say, “How are you doing?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:51):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (31:52):

Or they’ll say, “How’s it going?” And I’ll say, “Well, ask the students.”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:56):

Oh.

Susan R. Wente (31:56):

“Ask the faculty.”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:56):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (31:56):

“Ask the staff. Ask the alumni.” My perception of how it’s going is not as important as-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:03):

… the people we’re here to serve.

Susan R. Wente (32:04):

… who we are. The people that we’re here to serve. Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:06):

Yeah. So, as we come to a close, what are you hopeful for as you think about the future and what are you grateful for right now?

Susan R. Wente (32:15):

Well, I am hopeful that we will continue to really lead in terms of being a model for graduating leaders with integrity.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:24):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (32:24):

You can go read that right now-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:24):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (32:25):

… in the strategic framework. I am hopeful that we will really continue aspiring to provide a really outstanding educational experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:33):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (32:33):

… in an environment where all can thrive.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:36):

Right.

Susan R. Wente (32:36):

You want to build environments where others can be successful.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:39):

That’s right.

Susan R. Wente (32:40):

And I am both confident and that’s what I look forward to us continuing to do in new ways.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (32:45):

Because I think each generation of new students needs…

Shea Kidd Brown (32:48):

So different.

Susan R. Wente (32:49):

… us to consider their lived experiences and perspectives and even the demands of society. I’m really, really hopeful that we’re going to be innovative and creative…

Shea Kidd Brown (32:58):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (32:58):

… and meet that aspiration.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:59):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (33:00):

And then I am really grateful. It was three years ago this month that I was doing the finalist interviews…

Shea Kidd Brown (33:07):

Mm-hmm.

Susan R. Wente (33:08):

… and accepted the position to be the 14th president of Wake Forest University. Was announced on, you know, January 31st.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:15):

Yes, we always remember those dates.

Susan R. Wente (33:17):

We remember those dates. And I’m just incredibly grateful for this opportunity to lead this great university.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:22):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (33:24):

And I pinched myself-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:24):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Susan R. Wente (33:25):

… a lot of times to say, “If I look back, would I ever thought I would be here when I was that third grade student being-“

Shea Kidd Brown (33:33):

Wow.

Susan R. Wente (33:33):

“… encouraged to come out of the library?” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (33:36):

(laughs) That’s right.

Susan R. Wente (33:37):

So I’m grateful for the opportunity.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

Yeah.

Susan R. Wente (33:38):

And I’m grateful for such a warm embracing campus community.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:42):

Wow, your mentors, I know, are very proud that they encouraged you to aim higher. And I know I’m very grateful for you, for the opportunity that we have to do this incredible work together and just for you as a human, (laughs) because our humanity is what makes this place so special. So, I’m grateful to be in partnership with you, and for you taking the time to talk with me.

Susan R. Wente (34:05):

Oh, it’s really my great pleasure. I can’t imagine being anywhere else right now…

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

(laughs)

Susan R. Wente (34:09):

… this hour than with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:10):

Wow. So same here. Thank you.

Susan R. Wente (34:11):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:12):

Thanks so much for listening. Do you feel like you know my boss a little bit better now? She is pretty distinguished, right? And she has a great story. We covered a lot of ground. From upbringing and lessons that can be learned from hard work as a teenager to the importance of mentoring. This idea of aiming higher really has me thinking. There were so many in my own life who have and continue to encourage me to aim higher.

(34:39):

And not just for the sake of titles or other forms of success, but because they saw something in me. It also has me thinking, who am I encouraging in that way? Who am I mentoring and providing that gentle, and sometimes maybe forceful, nudge. It’s important. I certainly wouldn’t be where I am today without them. And as President Wente reminded us, she would not either. That’s what I’m reflecting on. What stood out to you as you listened to our conversation?

(35:10):

Whatever it was, know that each of us has something to contribute to the world, and we can all aim higher. But it might take a little nudge from a mentor. Have a great day, and I look forward to next time, kid you not.

MaryAnna Bailey (35:23):

Episode 10: Coach Forbes

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Steve Forbes, an influential figure from our school’s athletics department who serves as the coach of Wake Forest University’s men’s basketball team. You’ll hear about how our guest’s humble roots and upbringing have influenced his beliefs and coaching styles, how his wife’s recent medical issue made him reexamine his life, why he believes this year’s team can be very very successful, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we’ve found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

Hello and thank you so much for joining us for Kidd You Not! Today, I am thrilled to talk with Wake Forest University head basketball coach, Steve Forbes. Coach Forbes is such a wonderful human who joined the Wake Forest Community in April of 2020 from East Tennessee State where he served for 5 years. He’s had a distinguished career ranging from the community college sector all the way to the Power 5 with coaching stints in the SEC and ACC and has had 12 students drafted to the NBA, including former Demon Deacons, Alondes Williams and Jake LaRavia. Forbes was named the 2022 Atlantic Coast Conference Coach of the Year. He’s originally from Lone Tree, Iowa and is married to Johnetta. Together, they have three children, Elizabeth, Christopher, and Jonathan. I’m so excited for our conversation. Let’s get started!

Shea Kidd Brown (00:00):

So, thanks for being here.

Steve Forbes (00:01):

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:03):

Absolutely. I always appreciate when we have a chance to engage …

Steve Forbes (00:07):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

… and I know especially in conference play now, it’s a very busy time, so I appreciate you taking the time to be with me and I’m looking forward to getting to know you as Steve Forbes the person, the whole person.

Steve Forbes (00:19):

Not Steve Forbes the politician or, uh …

Shea Kidd Brown (00:19):

No.

Steve Forbes (00:19):

… flat tax or-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:22):

No, or the whole person, so-

Steve Forbes (00:23):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:24):

S- so thank you.

Steve Forbes (00:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:25):

I usually start with a question that I’m gonna get to in a little bit about home, but you are coming off the road (laughs) …

Steve Forbes (00:31):

Yup.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:32):

…. fresh from a game, so …

Steve Forbes (00:33):

Correct.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:34):

… tell me what that’s like because you have to like jump right back into everything …

Steve Forbes (00:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:39):

… as soon, and, and the players do too, so-

Steve Forbes (00:41):

It’s just a routine that you get used to …

Shea Kidd Brown (00:43):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (00:43):

… you know? It’s probably not normal for a lot of people. We got done playing the game last night in Tallahassee. Fortunately, we charter.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:50):

Right.

Steve Forbes (00:50):

So we flew home. I didn’t get home in my house till 2:00 AM

Shea Kidd Brown (00:52):

Geez.

Steve Forbes (00:53):

And I live right across the street …

Shea Kidd Brown (00:55):

Uh-huh. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (00:56):

… so, you know? And because of our schedule, today I might call my day off.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:59):

Oh, well, thank you for making time for me especially-

Steve Forbes (01:02):

Yeah. No, c- ’cause we play a Saturday …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:04):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (01:04):

… Tuesday. It’s not so much for me. I feel bad for the players because Wednesday during school is really not a day off.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:10):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (01:10):

They gotta go to school.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:10):

Exactly.

Steve Forbes (01:12):

They don’t get a day …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:13):

To recoup.

Steve Forbes (01:13):

… just to do nothing …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (01:14):

… or, you know, just be a normal person.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:16):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (01:17):

And so, I don’t sleep well (laughs) after a game. I have this stupid WHOOP on my wrist and it always is red …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:22):

Okay. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (01:23):

… after a game.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

So that tracks your …

Steve Forbes (01:25):

My sleep.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:25):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (01:26):

My average is about three and a half, four hours maybe a night …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:30):

Oh, wow.

Steve Forbes (01:30):

… after a game (laughs) ’cause it’s bad.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:31):

Ouch.

Steve Forbes (01:32):

Yeah. Well, it’s just part of it. So today will be a day of, you know, I’ll watch film and have a radio show tonight.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:37):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (01:37):

So it’s not really a day off, but …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:38):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (01:38):

… just as far as practice goes.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:40):

But your point about where we are in the semester too is helpful.

Steve Forbes (01:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

So we’re recording the week before school starts. So for the players …

Steve Forbes (01:45):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

… they’re able to relax a little bit. Now do they have practice tomorrow then?

Steve Forbes (01:49):

They do.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:50):

Right.

Steve Forbes (01:50):

I, I think it’s a lonely time for basketball players …

Shea Kidd Brown (01:52):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (01:53):

… ’cause you can’t even remember when the students were here.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:55):

Right.

Steve Forbes (01:55):

Does that make sense?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:56):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (01:56):

I mean, it’s like it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:56):

It’s all a blur.

Steve Forbes (01:58):

It was like December.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:58):

It’s the first week of December.

Steve Forbes (02:01):

They went home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:02):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (02:02):

We’ve been here the whole time.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (02:03):

But it’s like that. It’s been like that for me for 35 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Right.

Steve Forbes (02:06):

But I think for young people, sometimes, especially the freshman, it’s a little harder because they don’t get to go home.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:11):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (02:12):

I mean, they go home for a couple, three days, you know, right around Christmas, but they’re here the whole time.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:15):

That’s true.

Steve Forbes (02:16):

And their peers aren’t here. And so they’re like, “Man.” And it’s really their time to really truthfully be a professional basketball player.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:22):

Yes.

Steve Forbes (02:23):

Well, once academics are over, which we did an unbelievable job, we had 3.3 team GPA.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:28):

That’s amazing.

Steve Forbes (02:29):

A- amazing.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:29):

Congrats.

Steve Forbes (02:29):

C- congrats to them and Jane Caldwell. I think they get a little lonely.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:33):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (02:33):

It’s a different time.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:33):

And I appreciate you humanizing that because we see the game.

Steve Forbes (02:37):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:38):

We don’t see all of the in between and I’ve been fortunate to be a little more connected. You sometimes can forget what that’s like.

Steve Forbes (02:45):

Well, they’re young people.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Right.

Steve Forbes (02:46):

T- they miss their mom and dad.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

Yeah, exactly.

Steve Forbes (02:48):

They miss their family and they miss their friends.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:50):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (02:50):

And when all those people leave campus, it really becomes a ghost town.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:53):

Well, we’re gonna come back to a lot of basketball.

Steve Forbes (02:55):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

But I want to take a shift …

Steve Forbes (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

… a little bit if you’re okay with that and talk a little bit more about you as a person because that’s what I said we were going to talk about and I appreciate you being here, especially after getting here at 2:00 AM this morning.

Steve Forbes (03:07):

Wow.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

So I always start my podcasts with a question about home …

Steve Forbes (03:12):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:13):

… because I think our origin stories are really important. And it just, it’s the beginning of everything, so where’s home for you?

Steve Forbes (03:19):

Well, I’m from a very small town in Iowa called Lone Tree, Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:22):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (03:23):

And actually there was only one tree back in …

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

(laughs) Oh, really?

Steve Forbes (03:26):

… back in the 1800s. This is where the settlers came across Iowa and there was just one landmark of a tree out on the prairie and that’s the name, but I always tell people, “Yeah, we do have more than one tree now.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:36):

Yes. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (03:37):

Uh, and that tree actually died of Dutch elm disease. So I’m from a small town of about a thousand people. I graduated with 32 people. I graduated third of my class barely top 10%.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:45):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (03:46):

I was very fortunate because I grew up about 10 miles southeast of University of Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (03:51):

Iowa City.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:51):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (03:52):

So I had this best of both worlds.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (03:54):

I had this small town upbringing with … We didn’t even have a policeman. We just had one stop sign in the town and the county cop came through about twice a day.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (04:02):

I ran around town all day long. I knew everybody played four sports. I was in everything academically. I was in choir and drama.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (04:10):

I could do it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Drama.

Steve Forbes (04:10):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Like tell me more about that.

Steve Forbes (04:12):

Yeah, we can. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (04:12):

I have a lot of that. But I grew up also, like, on the University of Iowa campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:16):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (04:16):

Well, culturally, I just had both …

Shea Kidd Brown (04:19):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (04:19):

… instead of being isolated down the middle of nowhere …

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (04:23):

… and not having those opportunities. My grandma took us to the Hampshire Cultural Center there on campus at Iowa,, I had a pretty well-rounded education.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

Southern, yeah.

Steve Forbes (04:33):

Yeah, and I was raised by both my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:34):

Mm-hmm. Do you have siblings?

Steve Forbes (04:35):

I do. I have a younger brother Philip who works at the University of Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (04:39):

My sister Amy graduated from Iowa. She works for Ford Motor Company and she’s lived in Minneapolis for a long time. I don’t know how she can do this, it’s too cold for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:46):

Yeah, it’s so cold.

Steve Forbes (04:46):

And my parents just basically their life revolved around their children. I was the first college student …

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (04:51):

… first generation college student. My parents didn’t go to college. They got married right out of high school. The hardest thing I’ve ever done was probably, about more than five years ago, I had to give a eulogy at my dad’s funeral.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:02):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (05:02):

My dad passed away unexpectedly …

Shea Kidd Brown (05:04):

Oh.

Steve Forbes (05:04):

… when I was at East Tennessee State. That was hard. You know, my dad was my mom’s caregiver too, which really put a lot of pressure on us

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Absolutely.

Steve Forbes (05:12):

And I don’t live there.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

Right.

Steve Forbes (05:13):

So I’m going through it on both ends now with my wife’s situation.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (05:16):

Being a caregiver at my house. It humanizes your job fast.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:20):

Absolutely.

Steve Forbes (05:20):

It’s like, “You know, it’s basketball, it’s a game. There’s a lot of things in life that are important.”

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Right. And those things remind you quickly?

Steve Forbes (05:27):

Oh, they do. They could do it quickly.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:28):

Absolutely.

Steve Forbes (05:29):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

So with your mom, are your siblings, are they back and forth?

Steve Forbes (05:34):

Well, my sister comes more ’cause she’s in Minneapolis. My brother lives in Iowa City …

Shea Kidd Brown (05:38):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (05:38):

… North Liberty, which I feel bad because he gets the brunt of it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (05:41):

I’m the oldest and I would like to be able to, you know, help more. I’m just not able to, especially with the way my schedule is. There’s just not a lot of time in my schedule to go home. I get home maybe once or twice a year.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:51):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (05:52):

It’s usually Memorial weekend, you know, and then I try to find one other time. If it’s Christmas, possibly, but at times, it’s not. I come from a big family. I know it sounds funny. I, I graduated with 32 people. Well, my great-grandmother passed away in 1989, she had 129 grandkids.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Oh, wow.

Steve Forbes (06:07):

All right. So I come from this huge …

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

Huge family.

Steve Forbes (06:09):

… farming family, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

Right.

Steve Forbes (06:11):

And my dad was the youngest, so he didn’t get a farm. Farms a lot of times are handed down …

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (06:15):

… to the older children. And then my dad was the youngest, so he basically taught himself to be an electrician. When I grew up in a farming community, so I worked on the farm, all my cousins were farmers.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:26):

What was your job on the farm?

Steve Forbes (06:27):

Oh, I mean, everything, mow, I bailed hay out. One of the things that I … We have a lot corn. You have to detassel and rope corn, so I’m not gonna g- get into what that is …

Shea Kidd Brown (06:35):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (06:35):

… but it is really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:36):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (06:37):

I taught me work ethic.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (06:39):

When you have 129 cousins, you have to move out of town to marry somebody because you don’t wanna marry your cousin.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:45):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (06:46):

So I had to go to Louisiana to marry my wife, (laughs) but, uh, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I just woke up in the morning and started playing.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:51):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (06:52):

You know, I went outside and my parents didn’t worry about where we were at.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

Yeah, I was gonna ask you what you were like as a kid.

Steve Forbes (06:56):

Oh my God, I was all over the place.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:57):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (06:58):

I played everything. I started working in the fields for a seed company when I was 14. That’s when you could. And I was making $3.35, I mean, or $3.15 or $3.35.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (07:09):

(laughs) And it was hard work.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:10):

Yes.

Steve Forbes (07:12):

I worked at McDonald’s. Um, I like to tell people that I’m probably the only coach in college basketball that’s worked at McDonald’s and signed McDonald’s All-American …

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (07:20):

… you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

You’ve been at …

Steve Forbes (07:21):

Oh …

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

… all ends of the spectrum.

Steve Forbes (07:23):

… but I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything …

Shea Kidd Brown (07:25):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (07:25):

… because it’s made me who I am.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:27):

Absolutely.

Steve Forbes (07:27):

Uh, being a well-rounded person is I think important.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:30):

I agree.

Steve Forbes (07:31):

And I think learning how to work and then learn how to, uh, fail …

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

Yes.

Steve Forbes (07:34):

… you know? And not always, it’s not the end of the world and sometimes you got to go backwards to go forwards.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (07:40):

And I’m guilty of my own children, I think we just want everything for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:43):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (07:43):

And the reality of it is sometimes you g- gotta go through adversity to get, to get to where you want to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:48):

Yeah, well, a lot of times people just see the end.

Steve Forbes (07:51):

True.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:51):

They see this great coach.

Steve Forbes (07:53):

Right. How’d he get here?

Shea Kidd Brown (07:54):

You know, all these accolades without knowing the …

Steve Forbes (07:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:57):

… that you were in the field (laughs) and you were working at McDonald’s.

Steve Forbes (07:59):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:00):

And I would imagine just throughout the course of your career too like probably lots of setbacks that you’ve had to-

Steve Forbes (08:07):

I started out in junior college. Coached junior college for nine years before I really became a Division 1 assistant and a lot of people wouldn’t do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (08:15):

I climbed from Idaho to, to Louisiana Tech, Illinois State to Texas A&M to …

Shea Kidd Brown (08:20):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (08:20):

Tennessee and then we got fire to Tennessee.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:22):

Right.

Steve Forbes (08:23):

And that’s when you really learn about yourself …

Shea Kidd Brown (08:24):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (08:25):

… you know, how are you gonna handle that because you tell your players and your children all the time, “When you get knocked down, you got to get back up …”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Right.

Steve Forbes (08:31):

“… you know, and you have a choice, you either get better or you get bitter.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (08:34):

I just chose to get better, you know. And so I go back down the ladder to junior college. Two years later, I’m at Wichita State, and two years later, I’m the head coach, E- East Tennessee State, b- but I didn’t become a head Division 1 basketball coach till I was 50.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:46):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (08:46):

So, you know, I go out and speak a lot. How many of you guys are willing to wait till you’re 50?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

Oh.

Steve Forbes (08:51):

I mean, listen, it’s not like, my path’s not on everybody’s path.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

Right.

Steve Forbes (08:55):

But you can’t hit-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:56):

Well, that’s a good question to ask.

Steve Forbes (08:56):

But you can’t hit a single and land on third base either.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:58):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (08:59):

You gotta work around the bases.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:00):

Right.

Steve Forbes (09:01):

And sometimes you’ll get thrown out. You really, really wanna be a head Division 1 coach …

Shea Kidd Brown (09:03):

Right.

Steve Forbes (09:04):

… because there’s only 355 of these opportunities in the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

Right.

Steve Forbes (09:07):

Then how committed are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

How committed, right.

Steve Forbes (09:10):

You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

Or are you committed to the position?

Steve Forbes (09:12):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:12):

Are you actually committed to the-

Steve Forbes (09:14):

And to the process of how it will have … Did I think it was gonna happen after we got fired? I thought that would be a lot tougher. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

Mm-hmm. And as you were navigating that …

Steve Forbes (09:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:22):

… are there people who’ve been in your life to help …

Steve Forbes (09:23):

Yup.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:23):

… you through that?

Steve Forbes (09:25):

Oh, no question. I’m big on mentors.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (09:28):

I like to be around people that have forgotten more than I’ll ever know.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:31):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (09:32):

And these are people that nobody’s probably ever heard of, it’s not Bruce Pearl, Gregg Marshall or all these … And I talk to them, but I’m talking …

Shea Kidd Brown (09:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (09:39):

… about high school coaches, older people that have life experiences. I’m big on that.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (09:44):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

So like when that happened, do you have, like, this person that you call when things are tough?

Steve Forbes (09:49):

I mean at that point, it was my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:50):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (09:51):

You know, my dad, you know, my mom and I was really embarrassed about the whole thing just because of the fact I got fired. It was a very public thing …

Shea Kidd Brown (09:58):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (09:58):

… especially in college athletics.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:00):

Absolutely.

Steve Forbes (10:00):

Now here’s the other side of it. When you’re in it, you think everybody, you think the whole world is revolving around something like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:06):

Yeah, ’cause your world is-

Steve Forbes (10:07):

Because it’s not, but it’s not.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:07):

Right.

Steve Forbes (10:08):

And the one thing I did learn is, once I moved out and got away from it, nobody cared …

Shea Kidd Brown (10:12):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (10:13):

… you know, and life keeps going. And so at that point, I had my high school Coach Doug Hofmeister who passed away now, Ron Quinn who’s passed. I have a couple that’ve gone now, but I would say mostly in that situation is probably my parents, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (10:25):

Yeah, and what did they say to you?

Steve Forbes (10:26):

You know, “Just do the right thing.” You know, with the way we raised, you tell the truth.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (10:30):

I’m big on telling the truth, but sometimes the truth hurts, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (10:32):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (10:32):

And people don’t like the truth.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

That’s right that you are very honest.

Steve Forbes (10:36):

I am. That’s how you build meaningful relationships …

Shea Kidd Brown (10:39):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (10:39):

… by telling the truth and not being phony and not trying to be …

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (10:42):

… somebody that you’re not because I think young kids are smart, uh, that they see right through that quickly.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:47):

Absolutely.

Steve Forbes (10:47):

I think they respect you more if you tell them something maybe they don’t wanna hear. Because really, that’s my job.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Yes.

Steve Forbes (10:53):

My job is to get them to do the things they don’t wanna do every day …

Shea Kidd Brown (10:56):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (10:56):

… in order to get the things they want in life.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:57):

They want. You’re training them for life.

Steve Forbes (10:59):

Right. That’s all it is. Listen, basketball is great, but you got to use basketball and don’t let it use you.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:03):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (11:04):

The reality of it is I’m coaching a profession that will stop for my players in their early 30s.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:09):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (11:10):

It’s not a lifelong profession. So I understand if you gotta go make money now, make it quick. There’s a short lifespan when it comes to making money.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:17):

Right.

Steve Forbes (11:17):

So get that part, but you have to have something else on the backside.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:20):

Right, exactly.

Steve Forbes (11:21):

Because I always tell, like BJ Mackie is a great example in my staff. He was a McDonald’s All-American. He’s a First Team All-American in college. He’s still the all-time leading scorer in South Carolina and he was done playing at 32.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:32):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (11:32):

You have over half your life left to live.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:34):

We hope, yeah.

Steve Forbes (11:36):

There’s no senior tour in basketball like golfers can play, you know …

Shea Kidd Brown (11:40):

Forever.

Steve Forbes (11:40):

… forever. We don’t do that. So what are you going to do with your life?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:45):

Right.

Steve Forbes (11:45):

You know, and I think that’s the power of an o- opportunity to go to school here. Not always what’s you know too, it’s who you know …

Shea Kidd Brown (11:51):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (11:51):

… and how you network yourself …

Shea Kidd Brown (11:52):

Right.

Steve Forbes (11:53):

… and how you present yourself to people and go participate in class. And I always tell him, “You never know who you’re sitting next to.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:59):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (11:59):

“As talented as you are at basketball, that person right there is just as talented in economics or business …”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (12:04):

“… or biology.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:05):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (12:05):

“So you make a connection. 10 years from now, you’ve made some money playing professionally, now they got a business maybe you invest in. I don’t know.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Yeah, one, that’s the importance I’ve heard you talk about the students as student athletes and the importance …

Steve Forbes (12:16):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:17):

… of the Wake Forest education and really making the most of … And it is hard. I mean, it is really …

Steve Forbes (12:21):

It’s really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:21):

… really hard, especially we’re in the middle of the season right now.

Steve Forbes (12:24):

It’s hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:25):

They have to focus on basketball. I love that that’s the message that you are sharing with them. Now I do wonder your primary sport was not basketball …

Steve Forbes (12:33):

No.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:34):

… i- in college. So did you learn those same lessons from your coaches when you were in college and tell me a little bit about baseball?

Steve Forbes (12:39):

Yeah. Well, I played four sports in high school because I was in a small school.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:44):

Mm-hmm. You do everything.

Steve Forbes (12:45):

And so we won the state championship football my senior year and I was a First All-Team State Football.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

On a campus with 32?

Steve Forbes (12:51):

Yeah, we were really good.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:51):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (12:52):

Not in my class.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:52):

Okay. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (12:53):

99 in high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (12:54):

So we played, like my brother was a freshman on the team then, but I was a really good football, but I didn’t love football.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:59):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (13:00):

I’m a big believer in doing something that you love.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (13:03):

And I don’t wanna talk myself ever into doing something. Like people always ask you, “How do you decide to take a job?” I said, “If I had to talk myself into it, I’m not doing that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:09):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (13:09):

Then I went into basketball, so we were track i- in the spring and I, because the weather, so not good that you played baseball in summer.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:16):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (13:16):

So I could do all four. You know, I was really good at all four.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:20):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (13:20):

And so when I went to college, you know, some of these colleges are like, these small Division III, high academic schools, all wanted me. They wanted me to come. I said, “Well, I’m not I going back to high school.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Right.

Steve Forbes (13:29):

I mean, I came to all of this.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:30):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (13:30):

You know, so I took a path that I don’t think most people … And that’s just who I am. I, I chose community college and everybody was like, “What are you doing? You graduated 3rd in your class.” Well, I thought there was something more out there for me as far as other schools do recruit me. I was at a really small school. There wasn’t all this social media things. You know, nobody knew that kind of who I was. And so I took this opportunity to go to junior college. I went from an all-white community to being the only white player on the team.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:56):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (13:57):

And that’s the best education that I received in college, was living in that house.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:02):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (14:02):

What a house, we got my teammates from Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, Wichita and me growing up over here.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:09):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (14:10):

I mean, I was very sheltered, you know, and i- it opened my eyes up to a whole new world of, of people and culture and how they feel about certain things and, and how they view the world. Everybody has a different view on the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:23):

Right.

Steve Forbes (14:24):

My experience to Black culture was “Good Times.” It was in …

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

“The Jefferson’s”.

Steve Forbes (14:29):

“Jefferson’s” a- and “The Cosby Show.” I mean, that’s how I grew up. I never watched “Soul Train.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (14:32):

So I went to college and my teammates on Saturday morning, “We gotta watch Soul Train.” I’m like, “What are you talking about?”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (14:36):

… you know? And so I just, it really changed me …

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Yeah. That-

Steve Forbes (14:41):

… of who I am, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (14:43):

Just gave me a different perspective on life.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:46):

Even I would imagine food.

Steve Forbes (14:47):

Everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:48):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (14:48):

Dress.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:48):

Music, yeah.

Steve Forbes (14:49):

Music. I took rap music back to Lone Tree, Iowa and my dad was, “What is that?”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:53):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (14:53):

Run-DMC and the Jonzun Crew went back to Lone Tree and they were like, “People, they had no idea.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:59):

Right.

Steve Forbes (14:59):

I always say that probably prepared me more than anything for the profession that I’ve chosen.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:04):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (15:05):

Being a two-sport athlete, you had to be really disciplined. I was a really good student.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (15:08):

And so the academic part wasn’t really hard for me. I studied. I know how to say no, I guess, they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:13):

You are also an RA.

Steve Forbes (15:15):

I was. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:15):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (15:15):

And that’s when I went to Southern Arkansas.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:16):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (15:17):

So after my senior year …

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (15:18):

… I transferred. I was going to my senior year, my wife was there, I didn’t know it at the time. I was playing baseball and basketball at Grandview College in the morning after two years of junior college in Muscatine. I went with one of my junior college teammates, is one of my best friends to this day from Milwaukee to Grandview College, playing baseball, basketball. I didn;t really enjoy the basketball experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:35):

You did not?

Steve Forbes (15:36):

No, that’s the only time in my life I really didn’t like, I don’t like to coach.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:39):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (15:40):

And so, you know what? I did something my parents were really upset with me about. I transferred my senior year.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:44):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (15:45):

I had some friends of mine a- again from junior college who went to Southern Arkansas to play baseball.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:49):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (15:50):

I didn’t know anything about Southern Arkansas and I just called the coach and transferred there.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:53):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (15:54):

(laughs) And my mom and my grandma, who was a graduate of college in 1928, a highly educated woman, she was beside herself.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:03):

Yeah, I’m sure, “You did what?”

Steve Forbes (16:04):

… about … Yeah, you know, and I was gonna be a page in the legislature in Des Moines, Iowa. You know, I was set up.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:08):

You had it all.

Steve Forbes (16:09):

And then I just said, “No, I’m gonna play baseball in the South,” because they had great weather.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:12):

Like it sounds like a college student’s decision.

Steve Forbes (16:14):

It is. That’s me …

Shea Kidd Brown (16:15):

Yeah. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (16:16):

… you know? And here’s the thing. You know, I went down there. I said, it’s a dry county, I said, “You mean we don’t get any rain?”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (16:22):

And they said, “No, there’s no alcohol” I’m like, “What?” I mean I transferred to a college when I was a senior at 21 years old and it’s a dry county.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:26):

And you couldn’t drink legally.

Steve Forbes (16:27):

I’m like, “What in the world …” I slipped into a time warp.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:30):

Oh my God.

Steve Forbes (16:30):

You know, it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:30):

You thought Iowa was small.

Steve Forbes (16:32):

No, very progressive …

Shea Kidd Brown (16:34):

Right.

Steve Forbes (16:34):

… comparatively. We’d drive to the Louisiana line once a week. But anyway…

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

Yeah, well, my brother played football in college. It’s Pearl River.

Steve Forbes (16:41):

Yeah, I know Pearl River.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:41):

And they were dry there when he was playing, I don’t know if they still are.

Steve Forbes (16:45):

Well, and Southern Arkansas was not either. I- it wasn’t that. You know, I became a more dedicated athlete, because a- again, everybody went home on the weekends and it was a suitcase college.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (16:55):

So there I was stuck. I only had chances to work out really and become good at my craft and study. And then I met my wife in the fall that year.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (17:03):

We started dating, came back, I had to come back from my fifth year to student teach.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (17:08):

And so she was already-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:09):

So you majored in education?

Steve Forbes (17:10):

I did and I had, you know, history pre-law kind of background. Johnetta was already an RA. So I decided to be an RA. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:15):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (17:16):

Because I needed help to pay for college.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

I was gonna say, was it financial?

Steve Forbes (17:18):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:19):

Or because Johnetta was-

Steve Forbes (17:20):

No, no, no, no. it was financial.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:20):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (17:22):

Because I didn’t have any way to really … My parents didn’t make a lot of money.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:25):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (17:26):

There was no scholarships for baseball anyway, just that little work study. So once that was over I didn’t have anything. And so I had to find a way to pay for my housing.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:33):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (17:33):

And so I was, was an RA, which I, I like doing.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:35):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (17:38):

Because I like people, I like community.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (17:39):

And I enjoyed being in the dorms.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:41):

Right.

Steve Forbes (17:41):

I lived in the dorms very pretty much my entire life.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:44):

Now I remember you telling a story to my team …

Steve Forbes (17:45):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:46):

… about a particular story. Do you remember-

Steve Forbes (17:48):

Oh, probably, about the deer?

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

Yes. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (17:50):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:50):

Will you tell that story?

Steve Forbes (17:52):

Oh my Lord. (laughs) So they have Deer Days in Arkansas, which I’m like, “What? What are you talking about?” So they have these days where they just go out and deer hunt. They don’t have school. So my dorm was Talley Hall and it has three floors.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:03):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (18:03):

Top floor was the quiet floor. That was the academic floor.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (18:06):

So it was 24-hour quiet.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:07):

And were these upperclassmen?

Steve Forbes (18:09):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:09):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (18:09):

Middle was where I lived, kind of a mixture of people and the bottom floor was a fraternity. So one night on my floor, we had a community shower and so I could hear a bunch of people, were noise in the shower outside my door. I’m like, “What’s going on?” Like 2:00 maybe. So I get off, I walked in there and these guys had this deer …

Shea Kidd Brown (18:28):

Gosh.

Steve Forbes (18:28):

… strung up to the shower.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:29):

Oh.

Steve Forbes (18:30):

And they were gutting this deer …

Shea Kidd Brown (18:31):

Oh my gosh. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (18:32):

… in my shower. And I’m like, “Have you lost your minds?” And it was the fraternity guys, gotta give them credit. At least, they didn’t do it in their shower, they came up to mine.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:41):

Oh. Oh geez.

Steve Forbes (18:41):

So let’s just say they wanna double secret probation for a long …

Shea Kidd Brown (18:44):

Right.

Steve Forbes (18:44):

… but we had a quite a solid agreement after …

Shea Kidd Brown (18:46):

Yeah, yup, yeah.

Steve Forbes (18:46):

… that what was gonna happen around there. You know, one thing I did learn about being an RA a- and it helped me coaching is you can’t let things fester. Like you have to-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:54):

You have to address them.

Steve Forbes (18:55):

Immediately.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:55):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (18:56):

And you have to have some accountability …

Shea Kidd Brown (18:57):

Right.

Steve Forbes (18:58):

… immediately.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:58):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (18:59):

And then maybe as the semester goes, you can maybe …

Shea Kidd Brown (19:01):

Loosen.

Steve Forbes (19:03):

… ease a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:04):

Yes, definitely as a student, you know?

Steve Forbes (19:05):

Oh, you start easy though …

Shea Kidd Brown (19:06):

It’s really hard.

Steve Forbes (19:06):

… t- they’ll run all over.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:08):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (19:09):

And I think a lot of young people have a hard time with accountability …

Shea Kidd Brown (19:12):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (19:12):

… and confrontation and doing it in a respectful manner.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:15):

No.

Steve Forbes (19:15):

I don’t really cherish confrontation and so sometimes …

Shea Kidd Brown (19:19):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (19:19):

… I’m looking for …

Shea Kidd Brown (19:19):

Right.

Steve Forbes (19:19):

… but I’m not afraid of it either.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:20):

Right.

Steve Forbes (19:21):

And I think a lot of people sweep that away, try-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:23):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (19:24):

They don’t want confrontation because they don’t wanna deal with the problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:26):

Right, but then the problems continue to-

Steve Forbes (19:26):

The problem becomes worse.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:26):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (19:30):

Right? And I always tell my staff, “We got to be proactive, not reactive.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (19:34):

That’s to me is part of being proactive is like, “Okay, guys, we’re not doing this.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:37):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (19:38):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Well, I always say an RA position trains you for the world.

Steve Forbes (19:41):

I-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

You see a little bit of everything.

Steve Forbes (19:43):

I enjoyed it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:44):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (19:45):

I met so many different people and I didn’t go there thinking I’d ever be an RA.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:48):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (19:49):

It wasn’t even something that was even on my mind.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:51):

Right.

Steve Forbes (19:51):

It’s just I got to know the residents, Jake Horstmann, Dean Horstmann. I really liked him.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (19:55):

He kind of convinced me to do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:57):

So was that like the director?

Steve Forbes (19:59):

Director.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:59):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (19:59):

Yeah. You know, like I said, Johnetta was already doing, she’s across campus in Busey hall, but it wasn’t, I really didn’t do it because of her.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:06):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (20:06):

I, I just did it because it’s just something that is just kind of natural.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:09):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (20:10):

I like the, I didn’t mind at night walking around talking to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:13):

Mm-hmm. Oh, I can see you.

Steve Forbes (20:14):

If you knew my dad, you know that I could talk to a wall, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (20:17):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (20:18):

And that’s, that’s my dad.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:18):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (20:19):

It wasn’t all my teammates either. It wasn’t really good …

Shea Kidd Brown (20:20):

The first year?

Steve Forbes (20:22):

… first year of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:23):

So at that time …

Steve Forbes (20:23):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:23):

… did you know that coaching was in your future?

Steve Forbes (20:27):

Mm-hmm, great question. I changed my major three times.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:28):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (20:29):

I started out in accounting because I really liked my accounting teacher in high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:32):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (20:33):

He was my assistant basketball coach. I got into cost accounting and I was like, “Alright, I don’t like this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:37):

“Never mind.” (laughs)

Steve Forbes (20:39):

Then I like to write, so I thought, “Well, I’m gonna major in literature.”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:43):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (20:43):

“You know, maybe I’ll be a writer or something.” Well, I’m not that talented.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:46):

Not that-

Steve Forbes (20:47):

I was all over the map.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:48):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (20:48):

But I kept coming back to the one thing that I really liked and that was history …

Shea Kidd Brown (20:52):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (20:52):

… right? And so I got a history degree, pre-law minor and then I was like, “What am I gonna do with that? Am I gonna be a lawyer?” And, and again, t- that’s what sounds good, right? “What are your options? Are you gonna teach or be a lawyer?”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:04):

Right, especially as a pioneer in your family, so you were thinking about probably those really concrete …

Steve Forbes (21:08):

I was.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

… jobs that people tell you about.

Steve Forbes (21:11):

Then I decided, “Well, I better get this teaching degree, just so, just in case I don’t wanna be a lawyer. Maybe I’ll be, you know, a high school teacher or coach.” So I’m going through all of this, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (21:20):

Right.

Steve Forbes (21:20):

And I’m taking the LSAT and I’m taking GREs and then I sit down one night and I’m like, “Did my dad really love his job?” My dad loves his family …

Shea Kidd Brown (21:29):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (21:30):

… but he got up every morning no matter if it was 50 below or 100 degrees, put on a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt and went to work and was an electrician. I wanna do something that I love.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (21:40):

I love basketball.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:42):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (21:42):

Always had. Didn’t play basketball at Southern Arkansas.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:44):

Right.

Steve Forbes (21:45):

So I just played baseball.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:46):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (21:47):

But I just loved basketball …

Shea Kidd Brown (21:50):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (21:50):

… okay? And so I decided, 13th hour, “I’m gonna coach.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:53):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (21:54):

“… a- and I’m gonna coach in college.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:56):

So you decided-

Steve Forbes (21:58):

“I’m not gonna coach in high school. I learned about rejection real quick. I’d student teach during the day.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:02):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (22:03):

Do my lesson plans, grade my papers and then I would type because we, in my day, we didn’t have a computer.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:09):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (22:10):

I typed 200 letters at night to be a GA.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (22:14):

And I sent out, mailed them and licked the envelope.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:16):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (22:16):

I sent out 200 … I ran to, to the mailbox every day at the school, when I got done teaching in the middle of Arkansas. I come back, I go right to mailbox and I got 199 rejection letters.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:29):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (22:29):

I wish I kept them …

Shea Kidd Brown (22:30):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (22:30):

… because I keep everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:31):

Right.

Steve Forbes (22:31):

I had one interview and it was my former college junior college coach who had taken a job in Nebraska, Omaha.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:38):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (22:39):

And so they had a GA job open. You’re not gonna believe this. I had the interview on my honeymoon. So my wife Johnetta, who’s from Springdale, Louisiana, we get married in Louisiana and I tell her that we’re gonna go to Omaha, Nebraska for our honeymoon.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:51):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (22:52):

I think she thought, I probably should’ve not said, but I did not.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:55):

No. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (22:56):

So we drove in our car up through H- Hot Springs to Eureka Springs, Arkansas, stopped there for a couple nights, drove to Omaha, stayed with my college coach in his house.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:06):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (23:06):

We didn’t even get a hotel. I interviewed for the job. I drove to Iowa, to my parents’ house was about four hours away in Iowa to wait for the decision and I didn’t get it.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:16):

Oh.

Steve Forbes (23:16):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (23:17):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (23:18):

And so I went back to Southern Arkansas. Johnetta was teaching at Waldo Arkansas, fourth grade and making $12,000 a year. I was the SID at Southern Arkansas, $6,000 a year, no benefits. So we’re making about 18,000. One room cabin, no heat. One of the donors let us live in it out in the middle of nowhere. And then Elizabeth comes along. So after Christmas, Johnetta was pregnant and now what? I don’t make no money … , I had no benefits.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:43):

Right.

Steve Forbes (23:44):

She’s teaching. This is my time.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:46):

You gotta figure out.

Steve Forbes (23:47):

I have to figure it out. And so I got lucky. I mean, uh, an assistant baseball and basketball job came open at Southwestern Community College in Iowa.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:54):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (23:54):

I applied for it and my high school coach played there. Long story short, it’s always not what you know, it’s kind of what who you know. I got lucky I got … Because I played both baseball and basketball …

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (24:04):

… I got the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:04):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (24:05):

And it started me. And I moved my wife and I wouldn’t, anybody listening to this, I wouldn’t recommend this. I moved my wife in the eighth month of her pregnancy …

Shea Kidd Brown (24:13):

Mm-hmm. No.

Steve Forbes (24:13):

… to Iowa from her parents in Louisiana. So my wife’s a trooper. There was no silver spoon.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:19):

Right.

Steve Forbes (24:19):

I was determined to be a college coach.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Mm-hmm. I just think about translating even with social media and email these days. Like that was grit. That was determination.

Steve Forbes (24:29):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

That was farming. That was McDonald’s. That was …

Steve Forbes (24:32):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:33):

… you’re going back to your childhood of what you learned …

Steve Forbes (24:35):

No question.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:35):

… so early from your parents about hard work, grit.

Steve Forbes (24:38):

Angela Duckworth …

Shea Kidd Brown (24:40):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (24:40):

… she’s awesome with grit.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:41):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steve Forbes (24:42):

I mean, and, and if I recommend anybody out there listening to this to, to read what she says about grit.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:46):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (24:46):

It’s something that a lot of people, most of these kids need.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:51):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (24:51):

And I use it in my identity, I use that gritty, grimy, tough together, but that grit is what that really is about.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:56):

Right.

Steve Forbes (24:56):

You know?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:56):

And I just, as you were talking about that, I was hearing …

Steve Forbes (24:58):

Oh, that grit.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:59):

… that lead up to a-

Steve Forbes (25:00):

Yeah. And then, you know, and then there’s, and once you get it, then you got to do something with it.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:05):

Right.

Steve Forbes (25:06):

You’re not always gonna be successful. You’re gonna have to learn from your mistakes.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (25:11):

You know, I learned more from losses probably than I do wins.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:14):

Yeah, well, that’s what I was gonna ask you, because I see so much leadership in you. Leadership is a topic I think we could probably talk about for hours.

Steve Forbes (25:21):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:21):

But I wonder how you define leadership, what has informed, you know, your coaching strategy …

Steve Forbes (25:28):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:28):

… your leadership style?

Steve Forbes (25:29):

I feel like I’m the leader, you know? Like a lot of people talk about, “You got to have team leaders,” which is as important, you try to develop them. But the reality is they have to look to me for leadership.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (25:40):

So it’s the way that I live my life, goes back to having core values.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:43):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (25:44):

And those are right on the wall …

Shea Kidd Brown (25:45):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (25:46):

… when you walk in our practices.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:48):

Yeah, what are they?

Steve Forbes (25:48):

I mean, it’s “Grace.” It goes back to the 129 grandchildren. That’s my great-grandmother’s name.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:54):

Oh, wow.

Steve Forbes (25:55):

So I developed my core values around my great-grandmother’s name.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:59):

Around your family, yeah.

Steve Forbes (26:00):

Because of … And that family …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:02):

… is, you know, there’s a lot of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:04):

You’re fighting for attention. I was very close to my grandmothers. And so the G stands for being grateful …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:10):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:10):

I mean, it’s “Grace.” It goes back to the 129 grandchildren. That’s my great-grandmother’s name.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:54):

Oh, wow.

Steve Forbes (25:55):

So I developed my core values around my great-grandmother’s name.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:59):

Around your family, yeah.

Steve Forbes (26:00):

Because of … And that family …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:02):

… is, you know, there’s a lot of people.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:04):

You’re fighting for attention. I was very close to my grandmothers. And so the G stands for being grateful …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:10):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:10):

… and having gratitude. I try to live my life this way and I try to have my players live their life this way.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:14):

Like them see me as an example for being grateful for the opportunity that I’m giving and, listen, there’s nobody who’s more grateful than being, for being the head coach at Wake than me …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:21):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:22):

… as you have heard where I come from.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:24):

Right.

Steve Forbes (26:24):

And I want them to be grateful for this unbelievable education and opportunity …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:27):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:28):

… that they’re given. So to give back to that G is huge, like community service. We do a lot of that.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:33):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (26:33):

Help people who need us. The R is just for being respectful.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:37):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:37):

I don’t do well with disrespect …

Shea Kidd Brown (26:39):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (26:39):

… because I worked at McDonald’s. I don’t like people to talk down to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:42):

You’ve seen a lot.

Steve Forbes (26:43):

I like to treat people the way I wanna be treated.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:45):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (26:45):

And I want my players to do the same. The A is just for being accountable. I always tell the players, “Listen, I started to be a lawyer, so don’t try to spin.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:51):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (26:51):

“Don’t try to spin me around.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:53):

Right.

Steve Forbes (26:53):

“That blame game thing, I hate. We’re gonna make mistakes. You gotta look in the mirror, you gotta admit them, you gotta move on.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:59):

That’s right.

Steve Forbes (26:59):

“And try not to do them again, right?”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:02):

Mm-hmm, yes. Talk about making new mistakes.

Steve Forbes (27:03):

Yeah, I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:04):

Not make the same mistakes.

Steve Forbes (27:05):

We’re not gonna be perfect.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

Right.

Steve Forbes (27:07):

And I use myself as an example in the recruiting when I talked about this because I talked about being accountable when we got fired.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:11):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:12):

“Do you point fingers or do you get bitter? Or do you get better?”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:15):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:16):

And I got better.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:17):

Right.

Steve Forbes (27:17):

You know, the C is being committed. Most people have one foot in and one foot out.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:22):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:22):

We’re not both-feet-in people.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:23):

Right.

Steve Forbes (27:24):

I don’t do well with that. You got to have both feet in.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:26):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:27):

You got to be committed to what we’re doing. You got to be committed to me to being an elite basketball player and an elite student athlete.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:32):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:33):

And if you’re not …. And then the E is, y- you’ll find this to be probably hard to understand. It’s being enthusiastic about what you’re doing.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:39):

(laughs) Don’t be an energy, you know, taker, be an energy giver.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:42):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (27:43):

I’m a glass half full guy, not half empty.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:45):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:45):

I live my life that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:47):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (27:47):

I try to teach my players that.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

Those are your core values …

Steve Forbes (27:50):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:50):

… and the values of the team.

Steve Forbes (27:52):

I want it to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:53):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (27:53):

Uh, if they could leave here and say, “Well, what did you learn?” “I learned to be great. I learned grace.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (27:58):

It’s not always about what you learn in a book. I wouldn’t ever say that it’s not important …

Shea Kidd Brown (28:01):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (28:02):

… but I think trying to live your life that way, no matter w- what you do or decide to do, y- you’ll be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Yeah, well, it goes back to what you said about preparing for something else. So a- after basketball …

Steve Forbes (28:12):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:12):

… during basketball, but after basketball …

Steve Forbes (28:14):

No question.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:14):

… you gotta have something to rely on.

Steve Forbes (28:15):

I will say that I’m not a micromanager either.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (28:18):

I’ve hired talented people and I let them do their job.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:21):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (28:21):

If you watch a time out, I don’t always have the board in hand.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:23):

No, that’s right.

Steve Forbes (28:24):

I don’t really care.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:25):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (28:25):

“I hired you to be good at this. I want you to be good.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Right, “What don’t we need right now?”

Steve Forbes (28:28):

I hire people that turn my weaknesses into strengths.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (28:33):

I just don’t have a big ego.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

Well, that’s a good leader, the popular, maybe the macro definition of leadership is always like leader/follower, but it really is that, kind of going back to the original definition that you were talking about, it’s pulling people in and seeing other people’s talents. It’s the core values that you just talked about and the behaviors that go along with saying, “These are our core values.” And I will just tell you, I see all these. I do wanna ask you about, so you said, grateful in GRACE, respect, accountable, committed …

Steve Forbes (28:59):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

… and enthusiastic. That committed one in this era of lots of …

Steve Forbes (29:05):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

… transition and being transient in, in IO …

Steve Forbes (29:08):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:09):

… and transfer portal, how do you navigate that?

Steve Forbes (29:11):

Yes, it’s hard. You don’t really know somebody until you got them.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (29:14):

And they all have their own agendas. I think the thing that you try, that I try to teach them is that, you know, winning takes care of a lot of things. They all wanna be an NBA player.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:22):

Of course.

Steve Forbes (29:23):

They all want this and that, but nobody remembers the losing teams and so you have to come together and be committed for each other and love each other …

Shea Kidd Brown (29:30):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (29:30):

… and care about each other and then everybody gets what they want. At the end of the year, though, then it becomes you have to re recruit your own players again.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:38):

Right, right.

Steve Forbes (29:38):

I’ll be 59 in March.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (29:39):

Um, I’m not gonna coach till like some of these guys, till in my 70s. I just don’t want to, but I’m glad I’m kind of creeping towards the end …

Shea Kidd Brown (29:47):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (29:47):

… because of that. Because I’m a connection, I, I like to be connected to my players.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:51):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (29:52):

It hurts you when you wanna leave for the wrong reasons, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:55):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (29:55):

Now we haven’t had a lot of that, but …

Shea Kidd Brown (29:57):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (29:57):

… listen, we’re not immune to it either.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:58):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (29:59):

And they’re not as committed as to the degree, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (30:03):

Like for instance, I got a couple of players this year that are playing a lot that are gonna be seniors. I’m gonna be interested to see i- in the spring how important the Wake degree is over playing time.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:12):

Right.

Steve Forbes (30:13):

Like, “Do you leave your senior year to go play someplace else just to play and walk away from the degree …”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:17):

Right.

Steve Forbes (30:18):

“… or do you stay here and maybe play, maybe not …”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:20):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (30:21):

“… and then, you know, there’s no guarantees and get the degree?”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:23):

Right.

Steve Forbes (30:24):

I would get the degree. We’re in a different time.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:26):

We are.

Steve Forbes (30:27):

And I’m not saying this is right. And I’ve told our fans this, “Listen, you have to enjoy each team for each year.”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:31):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (30:32):

“They’re not always gonna be the same.”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Yes, yes, one, especially the size of a basketball team, the impacts of one person …

Steve Forbes (30:39):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:39):

… leaving is-

Steve Forbes (30:40):

Huge.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (30:41):

Not as many people play too.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:42):

Right.

Steve Forbes (30:43):

Like football, it takes a lot of guys.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:45):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (30:46):

And then there’s always injury.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:47):

Right.

Steve Forbes (30:48):

You can only play eight or nine guys.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:50):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (30:50):

You’re not playing 13.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:52):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (30:52):

“Okay, so what are those other four guys gonna do, they’re talented guys?”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:55):

Right. And what do you say to them, you know, in terms of keeping them …

Steve Forbes (30:59):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:59):

… motivated and-

Steve Forbes (31:01):

“That your time’s coming. That you’re good. You’re just not ready.” And you gotta hope that they have a good support group that understands that. Communication is really important.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:09):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (31:09):

Like with not just the player, but the family or who’s ever there circle. And I try to tell my players all the time to keep their circle tight.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:17):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (31:17):

“You should only be listening to people that truly have your best interest.”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:20):

Right. And there’s a lot of noise.

Steve Forbes (31:22):

Oh, way more noise than I ever had.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:24):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (31:24):

‘Cause we didn’t have this.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:24):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (31:25):

Social media, instant gratification.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:28):

Right.

Steve Forbes (31:28):

You leave the locker room, you come back in and everybody’s on their phone, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (31:31):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (31:31):

And it’s like, “What are you doing?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:32):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (31:33):

And these are good kids.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

Right.

Steve Forbes (31:34):

It’s just different.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

But it’s they’re engulfed with-

Steve Forbes (31:37):

Engulfed. You have to be accountable …

Shea Kidd Brown (31:38):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (31:38):

… for the good and the bad.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:40):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (31:40):

And I also believe that the players, the starters have to be accountable.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (31:45):

It’s not just, “Oh, you know, you can blame all this.” No, if you’re the main guy, then you take the main heat.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:49):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (31:50):

Now, I believe in this, I’ll hand that out in the locker room, but I’ll never do it in public.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:54):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (31:55):

I try my very, very best to never blame the players in public.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:59):

Well, that goes back to your commitment and your r- respect.

Steve Forbes (32:01):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:03):

Like it sounds like respect is both ways.

Steve Forbes (32:04):

It is.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:04):

I- it’s your respect in your players.

Steve Forbes (32:06):

And they, they try, they’re not NBA players. I mean, they don’t have eight-year contract making one-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:10):

Well, some applicant, Parker who’s 18, like, you know-

Steve Forbes (32:14):

And sometimes you gotta remember that.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:15):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (32:15):

Like Marcus is from Denmark. He sometimes doesn’t even know what country he’s in.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (32:19):

You know, he’s like, these guys are young kids.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:22):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (32:22):

There’s a lot of pressure. There’s pressure not just from fans, but from me, on themselves, from their family, from their coaches.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:29):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (32:29):

They’re dealing with a lot of things.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:30):

That’s it. Right.

Steve Forbes (32:32):

You know, and they-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:33):

In class, they’re also students.

Steve Forbes (32:34):

That’s stuff. I mean, to me, that’s where I have the most respect for them is because you have to compete just as hard in the classroom …

Shea Kidd Brown (32:41):

Right.

Steve Forbes (32:41):

… as you do on the court. Once you leave that Shah Practice Facility and I tell them this when I recruit them, you’re no longer a basketball player.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:48):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (32:49):

And then, “What do you mean?” “Well, you’re a student.” Now, I’ve been other places and I’m not, no disrespect, but when you left, you know, the arena, you’re a basketball player.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:57):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (32:58):

And you are known as that on campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:00):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (33:00):

Here, you’re not getting that.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (33:02):

You have to be a real person, you have to work on-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:04):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (33:05):

But not only do you have to go to class, but you also have to do your work.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:07):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (33:08):

Like there’s some places say, “Well, you can skip class,” you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (33:10):

No.

Steve Forbes (33:11):

“No, you have to do your work.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:12):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (33:13):

And, and there’s a lot of time involved with that, but there’s a lot of time involved being an elite basketball player …

Shea Kidd Brown (33:18):

Right.

Steve Forbes (33:18):

… okay? There’s the sleep. That’s important. There’s the morning workout, the nutrition …

Shea Kidd Brown (33:23):

The nutrition.

Steve Forbes (33:24):

… the weights, t- the tutoring time, practice, nutrition, study, back in the gym at night.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:29):

Right.

Steve Forbes (33:30):

That’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:30):

On top of any relationship you wanna have with family, friends. (laughs)

Steve Forbes (33:34):

T- there’s not much time.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:35):

Right?

Steve Forbes (33:35):

If you’re gonna be elite.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:37):

Right.

Steve Forbes (33:37):

It’s a choice.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

It is a choice.

Steve Forbes (33:39):

It’s a hard choice for some of them.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:41):

Yeah. That’s why I have so much respect, you know, my role, it’s I appreciate what they do …

Steve Forbes (33:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:45):

… because it is, it is not just athlete and it’s not just student, it is the combination of both that is unbelievable. And they’re doing it. I mean, they did so well academically.

Steve Forbes (33:58):

Oh, they did. They did.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

And they’re so fun to watch.

Steve Forbes (33:58):

I do you think that carries over to the court sometimes.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:00):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (34:01):

Not everybody’s gonna get straight A’s.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:02):

Right.

Steve Forbes (34:02):

Sometimes the best teachers are not the straight A students.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:06):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (34:06):

You don’t know how to relate to the other people.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:07):

Right.

Steve Forbes (34:08):

But I do, over my career, I’ve seen a correlation between success in the classroom with success on the court.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (34:15):

I- I don’t think there’s any doubt about it.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:17):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (34:17):

Credit to them. I mean, we got 13 guys on a team that had 50 A’s and 31 B’s.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:21):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (34:22):

I mean, I mean, I looked at the classroom, (laughs) I’m like, “Oh. I ain’t taking that class.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (34:26):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (34:27):

You know, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

Wow, you are, and the university is asking, there’s some high expectation.

Steve Forbes (34:33):

No question.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:34):

I mean, it’s amazing. The students will rise to those expectations if you put them in front of them.

Steve Forbes (34:37):

Bingo. They’ll do the same thing on the court …

Shea Kidd Brown (34:40):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (34:40):

… if you demand it.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:41):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (34:41):

It’s what you emphasize.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Right.

Steve Forbes (34:43):

Not make excuses.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:44):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (34:45):

And they have a standard that’s really high …

Shea Kidd Brown (34:47):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (34:48):

… you know, and you try to hit it every day.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (34:50):

You may not always hit it, but it’s there.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:52):

It’s there.

Steve Forbes (34:52):

And you feel it.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:53):

Right.

Steve Forbes (34:53):

Recruiting is a hard thing because you just don’t know till you get. And they got these resumes and they got these films, but you don’t really know anything about anybody till they go through adversity.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:03):

Yeah, I was gonna say you don’t know about their demeanor, their character.

Steve Forbes (35:06):

Right. But then, “When you go through that adversity, how are you gonna handle that off the court, right?”

Shea Kidd Brown (35:10):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (35:11):

“Are you gonna carry that to how you study, how you train?” It’s a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:15):

Right.

Steve Forbes (35:15):

Like I have a rule, nobody in the country probably has this rule,, all my players have to check in to the office every day before 1:00.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (35:22):

They have to sign in and they have to come talk to a coach. Why? Because I wanna see them.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:26):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (35:26):

And because a real relationship doesn’t occur just on the court.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:30):

Right.

Steve Forbes (35:30):

That’s coaching, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (35:31):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (35:32):

I’m not gonna say nice things. You can come in my office at 10:00, sign in and you got your head down and I’m like, “What’s the problem?” “Uh, I’ve broken up with my girlfriend.”

Shea Kidd Brown (35:41):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (35:41):

You know, some is, I’m a master in body language.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:44):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (35:44):

And so there’s just so many things with guys and gals …

Shea Kidd Brown (35:47):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (35:48):

… is just, you can help them.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:48):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (35:49):

You can head off by seeing them.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:50):

Mm-hmm. So how do you hope to see them develop? There’s a lot more basketball. So what are your hopes for this team?

Steve Forbes (35:57):

I think we could win it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:57):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (35:59):

I just think we’re that talented.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:00):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (36:01):

And I think we have that kind of, uh, grit. I think we have that kind of leadership. We have like, we have Efton Reid. He’s a fabulous person communicator …

Shea Kidd Brown (36:11):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (36:11):

… that players respect him. See, that’s leadership too, is they have to see you live your life the right way.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:15):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (36:17):

You can’t lead people if you can’t lead yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

That’s right.

Steve Forbes (36:20):

And so Efton is one of those guys that talks the talk and walks the walk.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:23):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (36:23):

And so they listen to him.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:24):

And they’re always watching.

Steve Forbes (36:25):

And that’s why I think that’s important for me that they’re always watching, how does he handle it.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:29):

Mm-hmm, especially with his unique story of-

Steve Forbes (36:31):

Oh my, he’s been through a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:32):

Coming on to the team. Yeah.

Steve Forbes (36:34):

You know, to have that kind of respect in that play till seven games in, that’s pretty good.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:39):

Right, yeah.

Steve Forbes (36:39):

Andrew Carr lives his life the right way …

Shea Kidd Brown (36:42):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (36:42):

… on and off the court, right? Cameron, Hunter. So we’ve got all these guys that just do it the right way.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:49):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (36:49):

And they’re talented. I don’t think there’s anybody on our schedule we can’t beat, but the thing about playing at this level is there’s also everybody can beat you.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:58):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (36:58):

And you have to have a short memory.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:00):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (37:00):

“How will you handle this now?” Football, you play on Saturday, you have all week to fix your problems, talk about it, you get to huddle up.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:08):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (37:08):

Like we play the next two days.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:11):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (37:11):

They wanna win.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:12):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (37:12):

They wanna be great. They wanna go to the tournament. I think this is a team that can win in the tournament.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:15):

Yeah, that’s amazing. Well, they’re so fun to watch. I’ve really enjoyed it and plan to be cheering you on the whole way.

Steve Forbes (37:22):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:23):

Now, I wanna ask you about your countdown. When you’re in a huddle …

Steve Forbes (37:27):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:27):

… you always countdown to family.

Steve Forbes (37:29):

“Family on three.”

Shea Kidd Brown (37:29):

“Family on three.” So what does that mean to you?

Steve Forbes (37:32):

That we’re all together, that once we leave the huddle, we’re gonna do that we’re all for each other and then we’re all on the same page. It’s kind of like my staff. You know, like I told you I don’t micromanage. I, I don’t like people that tell me things I wanna hear.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:45):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (37:45):

That I want discussion, but when we leave the room, we’re all on the same page.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:49):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (37:49):

To me, that’s just kind of the bonding of we’re on the same page family.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:52):

Yeah, yeah.

Steve Forbes (37:53):

You can’t say family and not be a family either.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:55):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (37:56):

I think back to, uh, all the time we spend with the players.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:59):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:00):

Like I don’t think people realize it, I, I believe in team meals.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:03):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:03):

Okay, because that’s where chemistry is developed.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:05):

Oh, totally.

Steve Forbes (38:05):

So we always eat after practice together up in the Paul Family Clubhouse, which is fabulous.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:10):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:10):

But my staff goes up there and plays pool, ping pong, videogames.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:14):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:14):

We visit and talk. Before my wife had a stroke, we’re in my house all the time. They know where I live.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:20):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:20):

The players are always over there. It’s that family thing …

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (38:24):

… that checking in the office develops family.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:26):

Right, right.

Steve Forbes (38:27):

Outside of this thing of basketball coaching is that we all care about each other.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:31):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:31):

We love each other. It’s not some just words that we say.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:33):

Right.

Steve Forbes (38:35):

And so when we say, “Family on three,” we’ve left the huddle all on the same page.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:38):

Yeah, one, I do wanna ask you about Johnetta …

Steve Forbes (38:40):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:40):

… because you were a- abroad …

Steve Forbes (38:43):

Oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:43):

… when her stroke happened and so how have you seen family …

Steve Forbes (38:46):

Hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:47):

… transcend your biological family and your basketball family …

Steve Forbes (38:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:51):

… through this hard period?

Steve Forbes (38:53):

It’s been both. My children saved her life because they were with her.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:55):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (38:56):

She had a stroke and then she had a couple more once they took her to the hospital, but they were in Destin, Florida like we were discussing earlier. We have a place there ’cause we used to live there. But the scary part to me is typically she goes by herself.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:08):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (39:09):

And has she had been by herself, it was, it would have not been a good outcome.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:12):

Gosh.

Steve Forbes (39:12):

But my children Elizabeth who’s at East Tennessee State, she does academics for football …

Shea Kidd Brown (39:17):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (39:17):

… at East Tennessee State, my son Jonathan started pharmacy at Tennessee and then Christopher’s my assistant with me, they were all with her.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:23):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (39:24):

And so they drove her to the hospital there in Destin and then she was transported to Pensacola for 10 days and I was in Kuwait. You know, we all do this, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (39:32):

We roll back.

Steve Forbes (39:33):

We volunteered for something that sounds good at the time and then we get to it, we’re like, “What am I doing?”

Shea Kidd Brown (39:36):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (39:37):

You know, I had this long summer of recruiting, but this thing was called Operation Hardwood. It’s a good thing. Skip Prosser went in, and so basically, college coaches go over to Kuwait and coach the troops in games, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (39:49):

Mm-hmm. Oh wow.

Steve Forbes (39:50):

You know, to volunteer.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:50):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (39:51):

And so, I- I said, “Okay, I’ll do it” And then it’s like a 20-hour flight.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:55):

Oh, wow.

Steve Forbes (39:56):

So we got over there. It’s 120 degrees, from the moment you] wake up and then the middle of the night, my daughter calls me and tells me my wife had a stroke, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (40:02):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (40:03):

And my wife’s 58.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:03):

Right.

Steve Forbes (40:04):

She swims every day.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:06):

Hmm.

Steve Forbes (40:06):

She doesn’t have any blood pressure or cholesterol issues. You know, you’re just like, “What?”

Shea Kidd Brown (40:11):

Yeah, of all these-

Steve Forbes (40:11):

“Are you sure?”

Shea Kidd Brown (40:11):

Right.

Steve Forbes (40:13):

“Transported her to Pensacola,” and I’m like …

Shea Kidd Brown (40:15):

“What?”

Steve Forbes (40:15):

“What?” (laughs) So I’m on this phone and I’m talking to him, like, you know, through the night and then I arranged a flight. And I fly from Kuwait City at 1:30 in the morning to Frankfurt, Germany. It’s like eight hours.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:26):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (40:27):

She had a stroke on Tuesday, I got to Pensacola Thursday night.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:30):

It had to feel like forever.

Steve Forbes (40:31):

It was, you know, and then what do you do? I didn’t know what to expect.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:35):

Right.

Steve Forbes (40:35):

Right. And then when you go in there, it’s not what you expect.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:38):

Right.

Steve Forbes (40:38):

When you see y- your wife who now can’t, I just left a week ago, she’s fine.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:43):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (40:43):

And now she can’t move her entire left side of her body, you know? And she’s got facial droop. And, you know, basically at that point, there’s still trying to save her life, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (40:52):

Right.

Steve Forbes (40:52):

And so we go through that, my children were superstars, you know, and then John Currie flies down, I get there on Thursday, he comes down on Saturday morning.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:59):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (40:59):

And we talked for a long time, we tried to develop a plan moving forward …

Shea Kidd Brown (41:03):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:03):

… which I wasn’t sure, I didn’t know where we were going …

Shea Kidd Brown (41:06):

Right.

Steve Forbes (41:06):

… ’cause we couldn’t stay there, right? So do we come home? Okay, that was the hard part. You know, do we come back to Winston and do the sticks?

Shea Kidd Brown (41:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:14):

But what ended up happening was I became introduced to the Shepherd Center in, in Atlanta, which is just fabulous place.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:20):

Right.

Steve Forbes (41:21):

And so after 10 days, she gets transported there. And then she’s there for another 30… was in the hospital for 42 days. And I was with her probably 38 of those.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:28):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:29):

I came back for one weekend, a Labor Day weekend …

Shea Kidd Brown (41:32):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:32):

… football game visit.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:34):

Yeah, I think I ran into you.

Steve Forbes (41:35):

Yeah. And so what, to answer your question, that’s how family oriented we are. I didn’t have no issues …

Shea Kidd Brown (41:40):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:41):

… with my staff, with my players.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:43):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (41:43):

Just took care of business.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:44):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (41:45):

And I wasn’t around.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:47):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:47):

You know, I couldn’t be. We got home on September 22nd. That was a big night. You know how you come home first night with your first child …

Shea Kidd Brown (41:55):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (41:55):

… and you’re like, “What do we do?”

Shea Kidd Brown (41:56):

“What do we do?” You know.

Steve Forbes (41:58):

That’s how I was because I didn’t have the hospital there anymore …

Shea Kidd Brown (42:02):

Right.

Steve Forbes (42:03):

… you know, and not to get into everything, but it’s just she couldn’t do anything.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:05):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (42:06):

So it’s like going to the bathroom in the middle of the night was a 20-minute experience …

Shea Kidd Brown (42:11):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (42:11):

… and, you know, I need some sleep. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (42:13):

(laughs) We’re so accustomed to her doing a lot of-

Steve Forbes (42:16):

Everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:17):

Yeah, I don’t wanna take anything away from you.

Steve Forbes (42:18):

No, no, no, no.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:19):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (42:19):

She did everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:20):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (42:20):

She took care of me, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (42:21):

Right, right.

Steve Forbes (42:22):

I mean, that was part of the sacrifice …

Shea Kidd Brown (42:24):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (42:24):

… of me moving and moving up. She is teacher, she’s talented.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:27):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (42:28):

She quit teaching when I get t- to East Tennessee State to take care of me, basically and the kids. You know, so my son Chris had to move back in the house. He’s engaged. He’d be married here in August, but I needed help. I couldn’t do it every night.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:40):

No.

Steve Forbes (42:40):

I needed some sleep. And then the mental part of it, she’s done an amazing job, but she’s frustrated.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:46):

I’m sure.

Steve Forbes (42:47):

So dealing with that and then, you know, we got to the point finally in the end where probably first in November, middle of November, she could get up go the bathroom and, and then Christopher was able to move back out.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:58):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (42:58):

Um, I had home healthcare for a while, but we’re not doing that anymore. And I think she’s done amazing, but she doesn’t. So there’s a lot of that, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (43:06):

Yeah, psychologic-

Steve Forbes (43:06):

There’s a physical part of it, but there’s also that, you know, and one thing that is probably helped me, I can’t drag the drama home. Uh, normally after a bad practice, you know, I come home and say “these guys.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (43:19):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (43:19):

You know, I just can’t …

Shea Kidd Brown (43:20):

Your perspectives are very different.

Steve Forbes (43:21):

… bring the negativity home.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:22):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (43:24):

I don’t wanna dump that on her. Now she probably knows I’m hiding it.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:28):

(laughs) Yeah.

Steve Forbes (43:28):

We drink coffee every morning.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:29):

Okay.

Steve Forbes (43:30):

She made coffee and I had to learn how to make coffee. I didn’t even know how to do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:32):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (43:34):

I had to do the laundry.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:35):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (43:36):

I mean, it’s been good for me. Listen, I won’t get this quote right, but when Rosalynn Carter died, one night, you know, he went down the rabbit hole looking at her life. She has a Rosalynn Carter Institute for Caregiving.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:46):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (43:47):

I didn’t know that, but it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (43:48):

It’s in Atlanta too, right?

Steve Forbes (43:49):

It is. But there’s this quote, I won’t get it right, but there’s like, “You either gonna be a caregiver or you’re gonna need a caregiver or someday, y- you know, you’re gonna be a caregiver.” And you don’t really think about that ever …

Shea Kidd Brown (44:00):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (44:00):

… until you do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:01):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (44:01):

It’s a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:02):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (44:03):

It’s a lot. And I don’t wish it on anybody, but I absolutely respect anybody that’s having to do this.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:08):

Yeah, ’cause I’m sure it’s taught you …

Steve Forbes (44:10):

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:10):

… more lessons than you could even take away.

Steve Forbes (44:12):

I- i- it really had. I think you have to be honest with this. You know, that’s why we’re doing this. It’s like, you know, we’ve been married for 35 years and then when that happens, you’re like, “I thought we were gonna have this time to retire …”

Shea Kidd Brown (44:22):

Right.

Steve Forbes (44:22):

“… and do these things,” you know, and we spent all of our married life professionally chasing my job and our children.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:29):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (44:29):

Last year was the first year we had an empty nest …

Shea Kidd Brown (44:31):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (44:32):

… since we’ve been married.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:33):

Wow.

Steve Forbes (44:33):

You can’t feel sorry for yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:34):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (44:34):

And she don’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:36):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (44:37):

She’s just frustrated.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:38):

She’s frustrated. Yeah.

Steve Forbes (44:39):

I think you guys set goals and, you know, my son’s getting married on August 24th. I said that’s a perfect time to walk down the aisle.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:46):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (44:47):

You know, set something that’s attainable.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:49):

Yeah. I have certainly been praying for y’all.

Steve Forbes (44:51):

Oh, I appreciate that.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:53):

I’m thinking about you and I appreciate it reaching out to you early on and you had humor in your text, which I think probably carries you through a lot.

Steve Forbes (44:59):

It does. Uh, you know me well enough, I don’t take myself too seriously.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:03):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (45:03):

I always say when I quit having fun, I’m not gonna do it anymore.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:06):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (45:06):

That’s part of the thing that we got from the beginning, we talked about doing something that you love.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:11):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (45:11):

I have fun at my job.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:12):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (45:13):

Okay, I’ve been very fortunate for 35 years and I have fun doing what I’m doing.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:16):

That’s important.

Steve Forbes (45:17):

Okay, the only time I told you I didn’t have fun was my junior year in college when I played for a coach I just didn’t like.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:22):

Didn’t like. You made a change.

Steve Forbes (45:23):

And I did, okay. And so that’s what it’s all about.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:25):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (45:26):

Finding your joy …

Shea Kidd Brown (45:27):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (45:27):

… and your passion.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:28):

Even in the adversity and you talked about adversity earlier, but what you just talked about is raw, real human, not connected to sport.

Steve Forbes (45:37):

I kissed my wife goodbye in the driveway. I can see, I got in the car and drove down to Charlotte to fly to Kuwait.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:43):

Yeah, and then you’re like-

Steve Forbes (45:43):

She was going to Florida. She was fine. If anybody has a stroke, it’d be me, okay? But the stress in …

Shea Kidd Brown (45:50):

Right.

Steve Forbes (45:51):

… you know, my job is like, “How did this happen?”

Shea Kidd Brown (45:53):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (45:53):

It doesn’t matter.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:54):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (45:54):

I mean, your life changes. Like the moment my dad passed away.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:57):

Right.

Steve Forbes (45:58):

I got a phone call, you know, 10:00 in the morning of the day of the game at East Tennessee State. I’m like, “My parents never call me this early.”

Shea Kidd Brown (46:03):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (46:04):

My mom’s on the phone, “Your dad passed away.” You know, that’s life.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:07):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (46:07):

It’s how do you deal with it.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:08):

Right.

Steve Forbes (46:09):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (46:09):

It’s been amazing to watch you both in her journey and posted some things on Twitter.

Steve Forbes (46:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:17):

And so let her know that there’s a whole …

Steve Forbes (46:17):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:17):

… bunch of people …

Steve Forbes (46:17):

She know, she knows.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:17):

… who were thinking about her.

Steve Forbes (46:18):

She knows. She knows she’s loved, you know, and I, I think it’s been hard for her too, she doesn’t feel like she’s connected to the team …

Shea Kidd Brown (46:24):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (46:24):

… because she doesn’t get to be around them as much …

Shea Kidd Brown (46:27):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (46:27):

… you know, and that’s a big thing when you’re a coach’s wife …

Shea Kidd Brown (46:29):

Right.

Steve Forbes (46:29):

… and you wanna be a part of it, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (46:29):

Well, goes back to family.

Steve Forbes (46:32):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:32):

It goes back to that word.

Steve Forbes (46:33):

And, and she’s always felt that connection, not the basketball.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:36):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (46:36):

Making cookies.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:38):

To the people.

Steve Forbes (46:38):

And getting on me about, “Be nice to him.”

Shea Kidd Brown (46:40):

(laughs)

Steve Forbes (46:40):

“You know, why did you … You be nice.” You know, just doesn’t … You know, like there’s something, she feels that connection, even though I told her, “You have it,” but she’s got to feel-

Shea Kidd Brown (46:48):

Which is different and it’s been five months. So going back to your G, GRACE, you know?

Steve Forbes (46:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:52):

Grace for herself, journey that you’ve so eloquently talked about. Listen, I think we could talk all day …

Steve Forbes (46:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:59):

… but I know you don’t have all day, so I would love to close with just, as you think about the next several weeks …

Steve Forbes (47:06):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:06):

… months ahead, what are you grateful for to use your G?

Steve Forbes (47:10):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:10):

And what are you looking forward to?

Steve Forbes (47:11):

I’m grateful for, obviously, the health of my wife …

Shea Kidd Brown (47:14):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (47:15):

And that she’s improving. I’m also grateful that I have this wonderful group of players that I enjoy coaching because it’s not always that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:21):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (47:22):

You don’t always like players that you coach.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:23):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (47:24):

It doesn’t always become that way.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:25):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (47:25):

It doesn’t mean you can’t coach them.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:26):

You don’t always have chemistry.

Steve Forbes (47:27):

But I … Right. So I’m grateful for that, you know, grateful for my staff because they’re so talented, they just do their job.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:34):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (47:35):

I don’t have to micromanage.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:36):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (47:37):

You know, I’m grateful for my children because they saved their mother’s life.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:39):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (47:40):

And they’re just wonderful people. And my daughter has her master’s in her doctorate, my son has his master’s and my son will be a pharmacist. And so t- their mother did a great job raising them.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:49):

Both of you.

Steve Forbes (47:50):

Yeah. And so, you know, I’m grateful for, for the opportunity to be here. I’m grateful for all those things.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:55):

Yeah. Wow. And I’m grateful for you.

Steve Forbes (47:56):

Well, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:57):

I’m really grateful for this opportunity.

Steve Forbes (47:59):

We’re very fortunate that you came here.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:00):

Well, thank you.

Steve Forbes (48:02):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:02):

Thank you. It’s fun. I also have fun in my job. And I think that’s important.

Steve Forbes (48:04):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:05):

And I appreciate you as a colleague. I can’t say that that’s the relationship that everybody has everywhere.

Steve Forbes (48:15):

You know that’s not, you know that’s not that way, and, but here’s the thing about, people need change. I’ll use Wake as an example. They’re no different in a lot of places, but a lot of times, you need new people, you need new ideas, and, you know, you’ve brought so many new ideas and change to this campus that you can see, it’s tangible.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:28):

Thank you.

Steve Forbes (48:29):

So I think, sometimes it’s hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:30):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (48:31):

People won’t like it, but, you know, you say, “Well, that’s why I’m here. That’s why you hired me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (48:35):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (48:36):

“You know, trust me,” you know …

Shea Kidd Brown (48:37):

Mm-hmm.

Steve Forbes (48:38):

… and I go through that too.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:39):

Yeah.

Steve Forbes (48:40):

You know, and, and you don’t try to fight every fight.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:42):

No, no.

Steve Forbes (48:42):

Right? And fight the ones affected students the most.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:45):

That’s right.

Steve Forbes (48:46):

And so I respect you for that.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:47):

Well, thank you.

Steve Forbes (48:48):

And, and I understand it.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:50):

Yeah, well, and it’s all about relationships. I think we’re both rooted in …

Steve Forbes (48:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:52):

… people. And so as long as you’re rooted in that, you know, everything else comes together even on the hard days.

Steve Forbes (48:57):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:58):

So, um, so thank you for …

Steve Forbes (48:59):

Yup.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:59):

… this time together. I’m rooting for the team all the way and I hope that I get a chance to meet them. I haven’t met this collection of teammates.

Steve Forbes (49:08):

Oh, yeah, come over.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:08):

So-

Steve Forbes (49:08):

Well, I’ll get that taken care of.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:10):

Yes, yes.

Steve Forbes (49:10):

They’re good guys.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:11):

Well, thank you.

Steve Forbes (49:12):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:12):

Appreciate you.

Steve Forbes (49:13):

Bye.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I just love Coach Forbes’ candidness. From stories of going backward to go forward, the importance of the path, his vulnerability in sharing personal adversity this year, and you gotta love his sense of humor. His commitment to the process is what makes him special to our players, to Wake Forest and the world. I encourage you to let all of his life lessons sink in, cause there were a lot! I hope you’ll join me cheering on our Deacs as they look to March Madness.

Thank you for listening and I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. You have something to contribute to the world. I Kidd You Not! Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and the heart work!

MaryAnna Bailey:

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life Team.For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 9: Reflection

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In this episode, Dr. Shea looks back at the semester that was. You’ll hear about what are some of Dr. Shea’s key takeaways from the episodes and guests. She also talks about a few trends she’s seen with her guests, how much she has applied that to her day-to-day, what to expect in the next episodes, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:05):

Hey everybody, it’s me, Dr. Shea. Okay, so I’m taking a deep breath as I take in the fact that we’ve recorded seven episodes, and after today, it’ll be eight. Just as Spotify gives you a Spotify wrapped at the end of the year that you’re probably checking out, I’m also gonna check in and kind of wrap this semester as we think about everything that’s happened this semester in my podcast world. Now, there’s a lot that’s happened in the world that I won’t talk about. Also, as a higher education professional, December signals a halfway point in our academic year, so it just feels like a good time to check in.

(00:42):

And you may remember, if you have followed along after the first two episodes, I did something similar. And in that episode that was episode three, if you wanna go back and listen, I talked about four big things that I had learned from this new endeavor of podcasting. So I’m gonna recap those really quick, and then talk about some new things I’ve learned and give a summary of the semester and also general hopes as we close out this calendar year. So the first thing I talked about for the first two episodes was that trying something new always feels vulnerable.

(01:17):

The second was connecting to our humanity is a lot easier than you’d think. And that was really about, as I talked to various people, different personalities, their path may be different, but the themes are often the same. The third was there’s power and stillness. So we all struggle with sitting down and being still, but when we are able to sit across from one another and really focus in on one another, it’s pretty powerful. And then I talked about that it takes a team, a team that has really wrapped themselves around me and helped me in this new endeavor.

(01:50):

So today, I wanna talk about what I learned about podcasting this semester, the themes that came from my guest, and general hopes as we look to 2024. So far, we’ve done eight episodes, and they are hosted on Spotify. And those guests have included Dr. Jose Villalba. Head football coach at Wake Forest University, Dave Clawson. It’s been my own reflection. Dean of the College and Graduate School of Arts & Sciences, Dean Jackie Krasas. Heidi Robinson, who is Associate vice president for career and personal development. Jackson Butler, who is a student government president, and Chief Regina Lawson, who is the chief of police. And then finally, Austin Terrain, who is a senior here at Wake Forest. All of these wonderful, amazing humans are part of the Wake Forest University community, and I’m deeply grateful for them.

(02:47):

Speaking of gratitude, I said in episode three, I gave a shout-out to Vir Gupta who really has lifted this thing off the ground, and I continue to be very grateful for him. I’m also really grateful for Gretchen Castelloe who serves as the Campus Life Fellow, and she works on a number of campus life initiatives, but one of those is the podcast. So she helps me think about guest curation. Um, she helps me do a little bit of research. I don’t do a ton of research on guests because I really want it to be an organic experience, but she helps me to stay organized. Abigail Brumfield, who serves as my Director of Strategic Initiatives for the division. So again, this is one of those initiatives that she helps to support. Debbie Mason, who is my very talented Executive Assistant, helps me with scheduling. So my schedule is hectic, and I make that even more complicated with wanting to interview individuals whose schedules are hectic, so many, many thanks to Debbie, who’s just a wonderful human being.

(03:49):

Paul Whitener and WakerSpace. So I talked about WakerSpace in episode three, but I also wanna shout out Paul, who, any student, faculty, staff who use WakerSpace know Paul. He is such a great community member and so, has been so helpful to making me feel right at home in WakerSpace. Two student assistance in Campus Life. Super helpful. They give me feedback, they’re always honest with me, so I appreciate that. And of course, you, the listener. So thank you for listening. Thank you for listening right now, and also for continuing to build this community. You know, gratitude, I love to start there. I think it helps me to feel grounded and connected. It helps me to move from inward to outward. So those are things that were really top of mind as I reflect.

(04:37):

A also wanna add to that list that I started with of things I’ve learned. So there are some new themes that I’ve learned, um, and so I wanted to share those with you. Um, the first is, we are similar humans with different lived experience, not new information to you probably, but every time I ask similar questions, we all have a origin story. We all have families, we all have ups and downs through the educational system. We all are learning about our meaning and purpose, whether it’s students talking about their college experience, or professionals who’ve been out in the world of work. So when I say similar humans, those are similar touchpoints, but what’s different is how we all get there. It’s our lens, what our family structure looked like, the challenges perhaps that we had based on our social identities.

(05:32):

So that has been really fascinating. I love the power of story. It’s just, uh, something that connects us all. Some of the recurring questions that I’ve started to ask, and maybe that’s an additional learning lesson is that everyone starts from this concept of home. And home can be a complicated term, but every conversation and the natural starting place where’s home for you? It’s also how I introduce myself to people. I’ll say, “Hey, I’m Dr. Shea. Where’s home for you?” So that has become, it was not at the start of the podcast, but that has become my first question I ask guests, “Where’s home for you?” And then I ask them to define what that means to them.

(06:10):

And so, we’ve had some really fascinating answers around that, a lot of similarities, but some differences. I also asked some version of what were you like as a child? I remember chief of police, Regina Lawson said she wanted to be a cowboy when she grew up. That evolved into a chief of police. But really funny, or I think Heidi Robinson said she was talkative. She’s still talkative. And that’s what we all love about Heidi. So love learning about that. And then I also, I’m curious often about who inspired or guided them. And I really let the conversation go where it goes. But oftentimes, this’ll come up. We all have mentors, or we have been mentors, or we have people in our lives. Oftentimes, those can be family members or people we saw as positional leaders in our lives. So I find that to be interesting.

(07:01):

Some other questions that have come up are sort of some version of how did you get here? So for our Wake students, it’s talking to them about their college choice, or their college major, or if you’re awake, or a student listening, you know that that can be majors, multiple majors, multiple minors, concentrations, tracks, things like that. And then because I’m often talking to people who have very full lives, I wanna know what they do outside of school or work. So finding out what brings them joy, what helps them to recharge, also helps me to think about ways that I can embed more wellbeing practices in my life. Then I like to end with positivity. So sometimes that’s gratitude, or what are you looking forward to, or what are you hopeful for? It’s really interesting. They may come out in different ways based on what the guest talks about, but those are a lot of the thematic questions that come out.

(07:57):

And if you’re a future guest, I don’t want you to be planning for these because as the guest, you get to take me where we want to go. Those are some of the things. The first theme is we are similar humans with different lived experiences. Some of the other lessons is the more scripted we are, the less connected we are. So we all love to know what we’re gonna say. Even right now, I’m a little bit nervous, and I’m sitting by myself with a microphone and a computer, but I am still nervous that I know exactly what I’m gonna tell you right now. So I think we’re all tend to have some sense of control when we have it all written out, question one, question two, question three.

(08:36):

But we all know that we’re less connected when it feels that way. It feels planned. We’re not able to have those nuances and we’re not able to feel connected. Or if it’s so perfect, you can’t connect with perfect. I’ve learned to just let that go, to have a general plan or an arc of the conversation, but to let the conversation take us where it needs, needs to go and that there’s such liberation in that.

(08:58):

So think about that in your own life, where are you scripted? Where can you let that piece of paper go and just connect? You are here for a reason. You have skills and talents and some of us are more comfortable with public speaking than others. But if you’ll just let yourself go and tell stories, that’s really all that you need. So the more scripted we are, the less connected we are. The next thing is that home carries a deep meaning. So I think it was after Coach Clawson, I was thinking about how I might prepare for the next episode.

(09:32):

And it occurred to me that that’s how I normally start a conversation anyway, and that’s probably a question that we should be asking. And so, what I know about the word home is that it has different meanings for different people. For some people home, in the traditional sense, maybe a complicated term. They may not have a sense of home with a nuclear family that has been defined by society. Home may take on different forms. But what I have learned, at least from these limited interactions and from what I know about the human condition, is that home in its purest most beautiful sense is this place for safety, is a place where we can be authentic. It’s a place where, as Heidi said, you can take your shoes off.

(10:18):

And so I love asking this question. I’m gonna continue asking it because I can’t wait to maybe after the first academic year to transcribe all of those different definitions of home, but it carries a deep meaning. So I’m gonna keep asking that, where is home and what does home mean for you? The next lesson is that we are both relieved when the episodes end. So my guest and I. Often a guest will ask me ahead of time, “Hey, do I need to prepare for anything?” And I said, “No, just bring yourself, everyone else is already taken.” And I just kind of chuckle. And as the interviewer, I realized that has a lot of privilege in that, that I kind of know where I want to take the conversation and they don’t know. But that goes back to the previous point of we don’t have to be scripted.

(11:01):

And so, but what I know is each time I sit down with a guest, I’m nervous, believe it or not, I am very nervous. I want it to go well. I want them to feel comfortable. I wanna ask appropriate questions. I want to feel connected to them. And so, typically speaking, when we finish press pause, we both have a collective sigh and we say, “Oh, okay, how did you feel? How did you feel? Okay, that went great.” And so, I think that we all have this tension built up to do well. We wanna do well, we wanna perform. So whether that is in class, or at work, or across the table in a podcast, so when I started this, I wanted to connect to our shared humanity. And I’m just letting you in on a little secret that when we press stop, you know, we sigh. I’ll sigh after I reflect with you.

(11:51):

So I want you to know that there is some sense of relief in a good way that the podcast happens, the conversation goes well, and that we end. So the next item that I wanna talk about is hopes for the spring and how the podcast is gonna evolve. So next semester, spring of 2024, we are talking about new guests. We have some that you’ll know if you’re part of the Wake Forest University community, and some that maybe you won’t know. And we’re still planning some others, so we need your help. If you have ideas, please reach out to us and give us your ideas. And then at some point, not gonna tell you when, but at some point the tables are gonna be turned, and someone’s gonna interview me, so. And I won’t know what their questions are gonna be ahead of time. So I think that’ll be important because I often get the great opportunity to talk with other people and to engage with them and to draw things out and their story. So I will sit in that same space and share my story.

(12:51):

My hope is that we’ll continue to connect with members of our community, not only those who are guests, but just generally speaking, as we’re bringing these conversations to light that something inside you will connect with something that is shared in each episode. And so, my goal is really to continue to do my part in helping us connect to our humanity. That was the goal from the very beginning. And hopefully, that is something that you feel and have experienced and something we will continue to think about.

(13:19):

So those are some of my reflections from getting this podcast off the ground. I really can’t believe it’s been eight episodes later. And hopefully, my ramblings are somewhat helpful for you. You know, it’s December, so a lot of us are being extra reflective as we close out 2023 and prepare for whatever 2024 has for us. And it’s important to just name that there’s a lot going on in the world, a whole lot.

(13:46):

And as a practitioner in higher education, we have the amazing privilege of being a microcosm of the world. So we are impacted by everything that is happening. And I say privileged because it’s an environment where you have relationships, you know people. And so when things happen, I can reach out to students, they can reach out to me, they can connect to their faculty, to staff, to administrators, families can connect to us.

(14:15):

And that’s very different from if you were navigating a really hard time and perhaps you work outside of higher education. So there’s just a lot of heaviness in the world. That’s how I tend to describe it. And, you know, as we all grapple with the continued war in the Israel-Hamas war this semester, I’ve really, since October 7th, I’ve spent time thinking about and talking to students who are affected. And students have different perspectives and political views and culture and religion and all of those things intersect. And what’s been really eye-opening for me is the world paints this picture that, generally speaking, if we’re from different places, we are like polar opposites.

(15:04):

And I don’t wanna downplay at all. We all have differences. And that’s important. It’s important to name those. It’s important not to be apologetic about those. What has been interesting though, in my conversations with students is it has eliminated similar desires. So in particular, when I’ve talked to students who are directly affected by what is currently occurring in the Middle East, they have similar desires. So students talk about the desire for peace, they talk about the desire for shared understanding. They talk about the desire for connection, also have similar emotions. So they’re grieving, there’s fear, there’s stress, there’s anxiety, there’s despair, there’s uncertainty. There’s also hope. Hope that the world will be better.

(15:55):

So I think when I talk about the podcast and connecting back to our shared humanity, I think sometimes it’s so much easier just to dehumanize and to talk about people as things and closer we can get to actual dialogue and grappling with hard things. That’s why I call higher ed a gift, ’cause we have that ability. And so I’m hopeful that we can continue to lean into those really important conversations. And I encourage those who haven’t been in the conversation to be a part of those. So that’s a big one that I’ve been thinking about as the academic year reaches a midpoint and the calendar year comes to an end.

(16:34):

The next thing is taking time for stillness and rejuvenation and joy. So another great gift of higher ed is that we speak in semesters. (laughs) So, this time of year, we are readying for winter break, which for our students is four weeks. And for those who work here who are administrators or staff, their break is about a week and a half. And so, it’s a moment where there’s stillness, where you’re able to enjoy holidays if you celebrate those, and just be home with family. So I’m hoping that each of you will take time for stillness and rejuvenation and joy and not fill every crevice of time that you have. I’m also speaking to me when I say that.

(17:19):

I also want you to ponder the questions that I’ve asked my guests. These are just important questions that give us grounding and footing and help us to be much more willing to embrace people who are around us who may have different answers to these questions. So where’s home? What inspired you or guided you to where you are now? How’d you get here? What makes you tick? How do you recharge, whether that’s work or school? What brings you hope? What are you looking forward to? What are you grateful for? And a question that hasn’t been on the podcast but feels appropriate is, what did 2023 teach you? And just because I have a microphone, I’ll share it taught me a lot.

(18:02):

Um, each year, I choose a word. And this past year my word was discernment. And discernment really is about making the, if you could see me, air quote “right decisions,” the recognition that my decisions make a big impact. So I really wanted to be thoughtful this whole year, just generally speaking, thoughtful. So to do that, I’ve surrounded myself with people who will tell me I have spinach in my teeth, meaning there are things that I don’t get right every time that other people can see that I can’t see, so surrounding myself with people who will tell me that. And also, I realized that making decisions, making the right decision, is not always the easy decision.

(18:42):

And so that’s something in leadership that each of us will likely have to grapple with at some point. Also, understanding the role of wellbeing. So taking care of myself and taking care of other people, those are both important. So discernment, I feel like I have tried to live into that. Maybe not always, but it’s been a word that I feel pretty good about this year as I’m closing out.

(19:05):

2023 also taught me a new level of courage and vulnerability. It’s shown me the importance of community. It’s revealed my continued gratitude for being placed right here, right now. I love being in this job and this role and I’m very, very grateful. It’s taught me patience. I am not innately a patient person, (laughs) so I have a sign that says “I need patience right now.” That’s sort of speaks to it, but it, it just taught me to, to take my time and to show up for people, and that life can change in a second. That one has really been salient. So again, show up for people and that life can change in a second. And this last one, very personal, but it’s taught me to let go while holding on. So my son began high school this year, and it is this really interesting, I said, letting go while holding on.

(19:58):

It’s this interesting tension of being connected to him, but in different ways. He’s growing up, and very soon he will be transitioning to adulthood. And so, that’s interesting. Lots, lots of reflection. This is in some ways a stream of consciousness. But a way to, to tell you what going on in my brain, what I’ve been thinking about is I’ve been producing the podcast and also some of the things I’ve been thinking about as Vice President for Campus Life at Wake Forest. Certainly not everything, but I know that your attention span may be short. So I’m gonna agree it to a close.

(20:34):

So last thing, and I generally start and end with gratitude. I just wanna thank you for being a part of this community, for listening as I’ve tried something new. I’ve appreciated your insights. And over the next few weeks, because of the academic calendar, we will take a break. We’ll take a pause for a month or so, and we’ll be back with some exciting guests in mid to late January. So be on the lookout and I look forward to seeing you in 2024. I hope you have a wonderful December, and continue to lean into the hard work and the heart work. That’s what it’s all about. I kid you not.

Episode 8: Austin Torain

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with a popular student body member, Austin Torain, known as ‘Speaker Kid’ to many. You’ll hear about how our guest’s high school experience shaped who he is, why music is so influential to him, what some of the highlights have been of his time at Wake, and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

(00:46):

I am thrilled to have the opportunity to talk with Austin Torain. Austin is a senior at Wake Forest University majoring in psychology, with minors in neuroscience and counseling from Hurdle Mills and Roxboro North Carolina. He attended the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics in high school, and at Wake Forest he’s a member of the Spirit of the Old Gold and Black, Momentum Dance Crew, and is a Gordon Scholar. He’s also a Leadership and Character Scholar, and works in WakerSpace. I’m sure there’s many, many other things that we’ll jump into as we talk, and I am so excited about this conversation.

(01:21):

Well hello Austin.

Austin Torain (01:23):

(laughs) Hi.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

It’s so good to see you.

Austin Torain (01:25):

Good to see you.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:26):

Yeah, thank you so much for agreeing to do this with me.

Austin Torain (01:29):

No, of course, I was super excited about the invitation, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:32):

Well, I was super excited you said, “Yes.” (laughs)

Austin Torain (01:32):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:34):

So I love running into you, whether it’s at the Pit or on campus and sometimes when I run into you, I hear you before I see you-

Austin Torain (01:42):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

… which we’ll talk about a little later, but we’ve never really sat down for a conversation. So I’m pretty pumped about it.

Austin Torain (01:47):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:48):

All right, so, as you may know, a question that I often ask people when I meet them is where is home for you? It’s different from where you’re from, it sometimes connects to that, but it has felt like a natural way to start these episodes, so I wanted to start there. Where’s home for you?

Austin Torain (02:03):

So, I grew up in a small town outside of Durham, North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:07):

Okay.

Austin Torain (02:07):

… um, called Roxboro. All of my family has pretty much lived there for, like, most of their lives, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:12):

Okay, and what direction is that in the state?

Austin Torain (02:14):

It’s east.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:15):

Okay.

Austin Torain (02:16):

And so, my mom and dad kinda grew up there, and my grandparents grew up there.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

Okay.

Austin Torain (02:20):

And so we’ve been there for as long, as long as I’ve known. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:23):

Your whole life. (laughs)

Austin Torain (02:23):

Yeah, as long as I’ve known. So I definitely consider that home-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:24):

Okay.

Austin Torain (02:25):

Like, that’s where my family is, so, that’s where home is.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:27):

Nice. You ended with, “That’s where home is.” So, how do you describe or define home? It’s a pretty weighty word, right?

Austin Torain (02:35):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:35):

Like, if you unpack it. So, let’s unpack it.

Austin Torain (02:38):

Yeah. I think for me it kind of boils down to, like, where I feel safest-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:43):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (02:43):

… and that oftentimes is with my family-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (02:46):

… and so because my family is there, I tend to feel safe there and therefore it feels like a home to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (02:51):

And I don’t know, it’s, like, a relatively, like, small town, so, like, I grew up with, like, pretty much the same people in, like, high school and middle school-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (02:58):

… and so, like, you learn the faces, you learn the names, you go to Walmart, you see-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

Right.

Austin Torain (03:00):

… all the people that you know and it just-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:02):

And they know you.

Austin Torain (03:03):

And they know you-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:03):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (03:04):

… and they, like, ask about you and you check in-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:05):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (03:05):

… and it’s like, I don’t know. It just always kinda, like, felt like a safe homey environment, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it.

Austin Torain (03:11):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

I would agree, I think about when people say, “Where’s home for you,” I say, “Hattiesburg, Mississippi,” I kinda say it without even pausing, you know, when people say where you’re from, like, well, um. (laughs)

Austin Torain (03:21):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:22):

I’ve lived in North Carolina, but home for me is safety. It’s like, I don’t have to explain certain things, certain foods. (laughs)

Austin Torain (03:29):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:31):

You know? It’s not an accent there-

Austin Torain (03:32):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

… because that’s how everybody talks.

Austin Torain (03:33):

That’s how everyone speaks, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:35):

Right? Right. So, so thank you. So, talk to me a little bit more about your family. So you mentioned your parents, and your grandparents. Do you have siblings?

Austin Torain (03:43):

Yeah. So I have an older sister, her name’s Autumn, Autumn and Austin.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:48):

Okay, awe.

Austin Torain (03:48):

Um, she’s two years older than me, so we, like, grew up, like, really close-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:51):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (03:51):

… ’cause, like, when I was in, like, third grade she was in, like, fifth grade or something of that nature.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

She could see everything coming before you did. (laughs)

Austin Torain (03:56):

Yeah, yeah, she’d be like, “Stay away from that professor.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:59):

Right? (laughs)

Austin Torain (03:59):

Or like, “I really like this one.” So it was really cool, I don’t know. I’m super grateful for her, I, like, joke about it that she was, like, one of my first teachers or whatever.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (04:07):

But she would, like, come home and, like, talk to me about the things she was learning-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

That’s so cool.

Austin Torain (04:11):

… and then it’d, like, make me excited to, like, see what, like, the future grades would look like.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:14):

What was next.

Austin Torain (04:15):

And so it was always really awesome, and, like, we’ve always been, like, a really close family, like, me and my mom, my dad and my sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (04:20):

Our house was, like, relatively small so, like, we kinda, like, saw each other around the house-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:23):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (04:24):

… and things like that, and, like, we would go out to, like, movies and, like, I don’t know, we had, like, a big yard and we’d, like, sit out in the yard a lot and, like, cook out or, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:31):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (04:31):

… picnic or whatever. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

Was food a big part of your upbringing?

Austin Torain (04:35):

Food, food and music-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Uh-huh. (laughs)

Austin Torain (04:37):

… have always been, like, a huge thing for me. We will find any excuse to, like, have a meal and have music somewhere.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:43):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (04:43):

So, like, we, like, cook out for, like, Mother’s Day, and, like, Easter-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:46):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (04:46):

… and, like, Fourth of July, and, like, Labor Day-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:47):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (04:48):

… and, like, any excuse to, like, have food-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (04:50):

… and music around is something that my family has always kinda rallied behind. Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:54):

I love that.

Austin Torain (04:55):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:55):

Is there a certain kind of food that y’all gravitate toward?

Austin Torain (04:58):

So, we’re, like, in the south-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:00):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (05:00):

… kinda ish, .

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Ish. (laughs)

Austin Torain (05:02):

So, a lot of, like, southern food, so, like, my mom loves, like, making, like, collard greens-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (05:07):

… and, like, cornbread, huge chicken, we love watermelon. We like fish a lot-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (05:11):

… like, fried fish, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:12):

Yeah, us too.

Austin Torain (05:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

We do catfish Fridays-

Austin Torain (05:15):

Mmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

… ’cause I’m from Mississippi, so.

Austin Torain (05:16):

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

That’s a critical part of farming there-

Austin Torain (05:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:20):

… there are things that we, we definitely gravitate toward.

Austin Torain (05:23):

And then, like, hush puppies were always a big thing, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:26):

Really? Homemade?

Austin Torain (05:28):

Like they, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:28):

Okay.

Austin Torain (05:29):

That I didn’t know were, like, kinda, like, local to the south, I guess.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:30):

Okay.

Austin Torain (05:30):

But yeah hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:31):

I love it. Yeah, food and music. So, before we get into music, who were you as a child? What were you like?

Austin Torain (05:37):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:37):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (05:39):

That’s an interesting question. I feel like I have grown more into my identity, but I never really felt like a shy kid growing up-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:47):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (05:48):

… or anything. I was definitely, like, still fairly outgoing and, like, I liked to be around people. Was a pretty active kid, like, I loved running around and, like, doing things-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:57):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (05:57):

… and, like, I was in a bunch of sports and things of that nature. Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

What did you play?

Austin Torain (06:00):

I ran track and played soccer.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:04):

Nice, I didn’t know that.

Austin Torain (06:04):

Um, pretty much, like, started in middle school and did it all the way through high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (06:08):

And so I was always kinda like a busy kid, and, like, I loved it. I, like, loved doing things-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:11):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (06:12):

… and, like, and going places and, like, I remember, like, bus rides in middle school-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:15):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (06:16):

… to, like, games and stuff or just that’s, like, a critical moment of, like, life.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:22):

There’s so much to be learned-

Austin Torain (06:22):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:22):

… from team sports. (laughs)

Austin Torain (06:22):

Yeah, like, I don’t know. It was just such an interesting experience. So, yeah. I’ve always been kinda like a, an outgoing person per say and-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:27):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (06:27):

… I’ve always really loved people.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:29):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (06:30):

Just, like, being around them and interacting with them in, like, whatever capacity that looked like, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:34):

Yeah. Yeah, so you mentioned music. (laughs)

Austin Torain (06:36):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:37):

And music’s a big part, and I imagine we could probably stay here all day. (laughs)

Austin Torain (06:42):

We can talk all day about music. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:44):

But you said, um, you know, music was important to you growing up, and I think you’re from a family of musicians I think?

Austin Torain (06:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:51):

Just talk a little bit ab- wherever you want to start with music.

Austin Torain (06:53):

Yeah, so I’ll start with my parents. My mom did, like, band and stuff in high school-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:57):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (06:58):

… and she played for, like, most of her life, clarinet.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Okay.

Austin Torain (07:01):

And then she’s also, like, really into, like, dancing and stuff like that. She likes to joke that I get all my moves from her-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:06):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (07:06):

… but I agree.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:07):

Is she right?

Austin Torain (07:08):

My dad cannot dance.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:08):

Okay. (laughs)

Austin Torain (07:09):

Like, whatsoever, but my dad sings in the choir-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

Oh, okay.

Austin Torain (07:12):

… and we, like, joke because my mom is, like, kinda tone-deaf when it comes to singing.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:16):

Oh, wow, so they balance each other out. (laughs)

Austin Torain (07:17):

So, like, they balance each other out, they balance each other out.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (07:20):

So, they both, like, kinda grew up around music and, like, both of my parents, like, kinda grew up in, like, the church and so, like, singing in the choir and things of that were, like, very, like, commonplace.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

Sure.

Austin Torain (07:29):

So, like, when me and Autumn were growing up they were like, “We’d love if you, like, tried it,” you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (07:33):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (07:33):

Tried music, like, gave it a go. Uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:35):

Was that, like, the children’s choir at church? Was that the beginning? Okay.

Austin Torain (07:37):

Yeah, that’s like the children’s chi- that’s kinda like where it all started.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (07:39):

And, like, I loved it. I enjoyed, like, singing and stuff but it never really, like, clicked for me, and then Autumn did band in middle school.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

Okay.

Austin Torain (07:48):

And so she was, like, “Austin, you’re gonna love band,” like-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:50):

That was one of those moments where she-

Austin Torain (07:53):

That was one of those moments-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:53):

…prepared you.

Austin Torain (07:53):

… where she, like, prepared me and she was like, “Look, I really think you should give it a go,” and played trombone-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:58):

Okay.

Austin Torain (07:59):

… in middle school. That was my first instrument-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

That was your first instrument?

Austin Torain (08:01):

… and, like, never looked back.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

That’s such an intimidating instrument to me.

Austin Torain (08:04):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

I remember the first instrument that, maybe one of my friends played, was trumpet and, you know, that’s also very intimidating.

Austin Torain (08:11):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:12):

But were you just drawn to that?

Austin Torain (08:12):

I was just drawn to it. I don’t know, ’cause, like, Autumn and mom both played, like, clarinet-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:16):

Okay.

Austin Torain (08:16):

… and so, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:17):

You wanted to do something different.

Austin Torain (08:18):

… I was like, “I really don’t want to play, like, clarinet or anything,” and then, I don’t know, brass instruments just kinda called to me and I wanted to play trumpet so bad, but, like, I couldn’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:26):

It is hard.

Austin Torain (08:26):

Like I just, I just wasn’t, my mouth wasn’t capable of making those sounds.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Yeah. (laughs) Right.

Austin Torain (08:31):

And so, then my teacher was like, “Well maybe try trombone.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:32):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (08:33):

And, like, I could make a sound on the trombone and so I kinda just went from there but-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:36):

Okay.

Austin Torain (08:36):

… so, that’s kinda how it all got started, and then just kept going. Like, I don’t know, music was something we always did around the house like-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:42):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (08:43):

… Motown, or, like, Sunday morning gospel, like, I don’t know. Like, it was just kinda always there, and so yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:48):

We will have to trade music because I hear a lot of similarities from my upbringing-

Austin Torain (08:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:53):

… and the music that I’m drawn to and even my now 15 year old, when I look at his playlists, I’m like, “Whoa, I’m impressed.” (laughs)

Austin Torain (08:59):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:00):

Like, it, it makes me a proud mom.

Austin Torain (09:02):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:02):

But it’s funny how that’s passed down.

Austin Torain (09:04):

How it just, like, generationally, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:06):

Yeah, yeah. It’s incredible.So you found a love in band, and then in high school, now, you went to a science mathematics school.

Austin Torain (09:15):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

So tell me about that shift-

Austin Torain (09:15):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:16):

… and were you able to maintain-

Austin Torain (09:18):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

… you know, your love of music there?

Austin Torain (09:20):

Yeah, so like my last two years of high school I went to the North Carolina School of Science and Math, and so, like, super, like, rigorous academics, like, very science and-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (09:28):

… math-based, obvi-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:28):

And was, is that where you-

Austin Torain (09:29):

Yeah, that’s kinda like-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:30):

… always enjoyed-

Austin Torain (09:31):

… where I just always, like, felt a little more comfortable and, like, I never really liked English and writing and stuff, I never really considered myself to be good at it. Gotten better over the years.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:39):

Okay.

Austin Torain (09:39):

But yeah, so I was really, like, drawn to science and math and it was something that I just thought I really wanted to pursue. It was weird going to a different high school than, like, been, like, used to-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:47):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (09:47):

… ’cause like I said, small town, so, like, there was one high school and everyone went there-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:50):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (09:50):

… and so, like, saying, like, kinda, like, goodbye to, like, my friends and stuff-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:53):

So you had to physically leave.

Austin Torain (09:55):

Like, I had to physically le- yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:55):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (09:56):

It was, like, boarding school. And it wasn’t, like, terribly far from home, like, 30, 40 minutes maybe, but different.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:00):

You were away.

Austin Torain (10:01):

And I was away. All of the friends and the people that I had, like, grown up with were, like, now a drive away instead of just, like, I don’t know, a walk down the street kinda thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:08):

Right.

Austin Torain (10:08):

And so it was a little intimidating, but I don’t know. I kept doing band at the new school that I was going to, and, like, I really loved it, and surprisingly enough even though it was, like, science and math-based, they had a lot of, like, funding for liberal arts that, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:20):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (10:21):

… my public high school in the middle of nowhere, like, didn’t have, and so there were, like, dance clubs on campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (10:27):

… and I was like, “Dance? I love dancing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:29):

What’s this? (laughs)

Austin Torain (10:29):

Like, “This sounds like it would be fun.” And so, there was this, like, hip hop club and I, like, went out and tried out for it and they were like, “Yeah, like, we love you,” and, like, “We want you.” And so, yeah. So I started dancing, like, real dancing, like, I guess, like, learning from other people-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:43):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (10:43):

… like, junior year of high school, and that’s also been something really cool that I’ve gotten to continue at Wake ’cause-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:48):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (10:48):

… there’s a couple dance groups and stuff here and so even though it was a science and math school it kinda just, like, deepened my passion-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:53):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (10:54):

… for music.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:54):

That’s very cool.

Austin Torain (10:54):

Like, I just found, like, other avenues-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:56):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (10:56):

… to, like, do music, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

Now was there a moment in middle school, someone encouraged you to pursue this high school, or what was that? Talk to me a little bit about that decision making.

Austin Torain (11:05):

Yeah, so a really cool, like, blessing that I’ve had is, like, most of my, like, middle school and, like, early high school teachers were very, like, supportive in terms of, like, we want you to do-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:15):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (11:15):

… what is best for you in terms of, like, getting into schools and stuff like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (11:18):

So, a lot of them were, like, pushing me to, like, apply to this school-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:22):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (11:23):

… and, like, do the things and, like, they also were, like, really supportive in terms of, like, never, like, give up on your passions and things.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (11:29):

So, like, one of my, like, history professors, like, came to some of my, like, band concerts and stuff-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:34):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (11:34):

… like, at the new high school, and, like, he was just kinda, like, always there. I just always, like, felt really supported by, like, my hometown community which not everyone, like, has that kind of, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:42):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (11:42):

… support system, and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:44):

Right. Well and it’s like what you talked about, home is, you know, knowing people. It’s also being known.

Austin Torain (11:49):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

It sounds like you had a lot of people in your life who knew you had talents and wanted to see those really nurtured. You were happy making that decision in high school, and-

Austin Torain (11:58):

Yeah, like, it was hard to say, like, “Goodbye,” to, like, friends and stuff ’cause, like, I had been, like, in the classes with some of them since-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (12:04):

… middle school, but everyone was, like, super supportive and they were like, “This is gonna, like, look really good for, like, college applications-“

Shea Kidd Brown (12:09):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (12:10):

And then, like, “It’ll be a good, like, real-world experience,” and to, like, live on campus and stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Right.

Austin Torain (12:14):

So, like, I’m basically, I’d been living in a dorm-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:15):

So you’d, yeah.

Austin Torain (12:16):

… since, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:16):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (12:16):

… junior year of high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:18):

I have to ask, given your interest in music, singing, dance, playing instruments, math science. (laughs) What were your career (laughs) aspirations-

Austin Torain (12:30):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (12:30):

… in middle and high school? (laughs)

Austin Torain (12:32):

Yeah, that’s tough because for the longest time I, like, really wanted to do medicine.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:38):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (12:38):

Like, I just wanted to be a doctor and I think just growing up in a small town and, like, coming from, like, a lower socioeconomic, like, family, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:45):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (12:45):

… that was where I knew I could make the most money, and it was just something that, like, if I can get there then I can, like, take care of, like, my family and I can take care of my friends and take care of my cousins. That’s where I need to get.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:54):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (12:55):

And so for most of, like, middle school and, like, early high school I was like, “I want to be, like, a neurologist,” like, I want to be-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:00):

Okay.

Austin Torain (13:01):

… like, neuroscience, I love the brain, I, like, want to be a doctor, like, that’s it. That’s my passion.

(13:06):

I went to the School of Science of Math and I just realized that, like, even though I was, like, relatively decent (laughs) at science and math-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (13:12):

… it, like, wasn’t really that fun for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:14):

Okay.

Austin Torain (13:15):

I don’t know, I didn’t find, like, the same kind of passion and yearning and, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:18):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (13:18):

… wanting to do it as I did for, like, other things that I found interesting.

(13:22):

And so kind of, like, towards the end of high school I was kind of lost. I didn’t really know where I wanted to go.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:27):

I’m sure you know now. (laughs) Um, totally fine.

Austin Torain (13:29):

Totally normal.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:30):

Yeah. (laughs) totally normal.

Austin Torain (13:31):

Like, everyone, everyone kinda-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:31):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (13:32):

… goes through a little patch and so yeah, it was a little confusing when I was, like, applying to schools and, like, trying to, like, sell myself-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:38):

Right.

Austin Torain (13:38):

… and I didn’t really know what I wanted to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:40):

Yeah, and I don’t want to speak for you, but I would imagine Wake Forest became very much a top contender because of the curiosity-

Austin Torain (13:50):

The liberal arts.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:50):

… and the liberal arts. Yeah. (laughs)

Austin Torain (13:50):

Like, I don’t know, there’s just so much I could try here-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

Right.

Austin Torain (13:53):

… and it, it just felt like I could figure out something.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:54):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (13:54):

Um, like f-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:55):

(laughs) And the fact that we don’t push you into-

Austin Torain (13:57):

In a box.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:58):

… something right away, yeah.

Austin Torain (13:59):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:59):

It makes a huge difference I think.

Austin Torain (14:01):

Yeah, so it was really nice, like, those first two years just, like, taking classes, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:05):

Right. (laughs)

Austin Torain (14:06):

I don’t know. I took some music classes, some science, math classes. I took, like, some psychology classes, I took a philosophy class.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:12):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (14:13):

Like, I was just trying things-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:14):

Yeah, right.

Austin Torain (14:14):

… ’cause I was kinda lost, so I was like I don’t really know what speaks to me anymore. And then I, like, took a Intro to Psychology class. I don’t know, things kinda clicked for me there.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:22):

Yeah?

Austin Torain (14:22):

It just felt kinda like a calling ’cause that’s what I talked about before, like, I just love people.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (14:27):

Like, people watching-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:28):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (14:28):

… talking to people, and something about psychology and the study of human behavior just, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:32):

Yeah. (laughs)

Austin Torain (14:32):

… it really-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:32):

Clicked.

Austin Torain (14:33):

… did it for me, like, it made sense. I guess, also, just, like, coming from, like, a small town, like, we didn’t have a lot of, like, psychology classes or anything like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Right.

Austin Torain (14:40):

Like, AP psych was a thing but, like, that was it. So I didn’t really know what it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:44):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (14:44):

… to be a psychologist or, like, that kinda field and so coming here and, like, getting a chance to just, like, explore and experience it just felt really right, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

Yeah, well that’s such a critical part of the college experience and I feel like we rush through life in general. You know, in middle school, what are you doing for high school? In high school, what’s, you know, where are you applying to college? In college it’s what are you majoring in? In c- and as you know, as a senior, what are you gonna do next?

Austin Torain (15:06):

What’s next? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

(laughs) And, so, to slow that process down it seems like… What did you learn about yourself during that process?

Austin Torain (15:13):

I just spent, like, a lot of time kinda just, like, self-reflecting-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:16):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (15:16):

… and, like, realizing where my motivations come from.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:19):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (15:20):

‘Cause like I said, I think, like, coming from, like, a small town and all of my background and stuff, a lotta my motivations were a little more, like, extrinsic-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:27):

Sure.

Austin Torain (15:27):

… like, I just, I wanted to, like, make money.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:29):

Right, right. (laughs)

Austin Torain (15:30):

Like, that was it. Like, I was like, if I can make money, life will be good.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:32):

Check check. (laughs)

Austin Torain (15:33):

And I’m, like, I’m good to go.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

Right.

Austin Torain (15:35):

And so, like, after, like, taking a bunch of classes and, like, having time to just, like, reflect and think it became a little more intrinsic, and I was like, what makes me feel like I’m giving back?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:43):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (15:43):

Like, what makes me feel like I’m doing something more than for myself? Psychology was that, and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:48):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (15:48):

… like, it just felt bigger than me.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:49):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (15:50):

It felt bigger than just, like, an ends to a mean.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (15:53):

And I was like, “Okay, like, let’s just see where this goes.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:55):

Yeah, it sounds like you’ve really found your meaning.

Austin Torain (15:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:57):

Like, meaning and purpose in your life, ’cause I know you also have a passion around mental health.

Austin Torain (16:02):

Yeah, I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:02):

Can you, but can you talk a little bit about that?

Austin Torain (16:03):

Yeah, just, like, growing up black in America is rough and tough. Mental health was something we didn’t really discuss a lot ’cause there’s, like, black resilience.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:12):

Yeah, there’s a stigma.

Austin Torain (16:12):

And, like, you’re strong, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:13):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (16:14):

… you don’t really need to talk about it. And so when I got to, like, college, it was, like, in the middle of COVID and things-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:18):

That’s right.

Austin Torain (16:18):

… and things were hectic, confusing, and, like, I wanted to, like, talk to somebody about it.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (16:22):

And so, like, tried to, like, find counselors and stuff in the area but there was no one who looked like me.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:27):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (16:28):

And it just felt really invalidating to, like, have those, like hard conversations-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:31):

Absolutely.

Austin Torain (16:32):

… with people who, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:32):

It’s hard enough. You know?

Austin Torain (16:35):

Yeah, it’s hard enough to, like, open up about your mental health and then especially, like, when the person on the receiving end, like, wasn’t what I thought-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:40):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (16:41):

… I wanted someone to, like, look like. It felt really hard and, like, that kinda really solidified for me, real reason that I want to go into this field is to give people who look like me a chance to see themselves represented-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:50):

Right.

Austin Torain (16:50):

… and, like, I want to be that kinda, like, beacon of, like, mental health as a Black man.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (16:54):

It’s okay to talk about it. Like, it’s okay to cry. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:56):

Right.

Austin Torain (16:57):

You’re gonna cry sometimes-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:57):

That’s, that’s-

Austin Torain (16:58):

It’s okay, like, that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:59):

… actually strength. There’s strength in that.

Austin Torain (17:00):

Yeah, like, there’s so much power in, like, being vulnerable and letting your emotions, like, be emotions-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:04):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (17:04):

… ’cause we’re people.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:05):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (17:05):

Like, we have feelings and, like, there’s no point in, like, pushing them aside and ignoring them. At some point they’re gonna bubble to the surface.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:11):

Yes. They come out.

Austin Torain (17:11):

Like-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:14):

One way or another, whether we like it or not.

Austin Torain (17:14):

They come out one way or another, and so, kinda just, like, the weird accumulation of everything just kinda, like, really got me, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:19):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (17:20):

… passionate about, like, mental health. I was like, “This is something that I want to, like, do, for the rest of my life.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:24):

Yeah, well you experienced it.

Austin Torain (17:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:25):

I think however we end up talking about career, you know, in our various circles, I think the people who are most passionate about what they do and who stick with it it’s because something personal connected, so I’m Vice President for Campus Life and it was a person I met at the stairs, my freshman year of college, when I didn’t even know higher ed was a career. (laughs)

(17:46):

But later, you know, I can always trace back the person I try to be is that person for somebody else, and for you, you can always trace it back to, and I’m sure it was more than that moment, but what a critical moment. First year of college, or, here, but not here.

Austin Torain (18:00):

Not here, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:01):

You’re in your residence hall, you’re trying to figure out college and life and then having this moment of not really connection, disconnection, that kinda led you down that path. Yeah, that’s really, really interesting. And so important. So, yeah.

Austin Torain (18:14):

So important.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:15):

I hope that you will continue because, as you’ve learned firsthand, there is a shortage and I think going back to what we said about music being passed down, there’s also a lineage sometimes of not seeking help that’s-

Austin Torain (18:28):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:28):

… passed down, and so being able to provide that counter narrative and the personal experience. And have you been able to, as a student, even be engaged in the conversations around mental health?

Austin Torain (18:40):

Yeah, so I actually have had a lot of, like, chance and time, whether it’s like the spaces I’m in or the people that I talk to, like, be involved with mental health. So, I’m, like, a counseling minor and so a lot of the counseling classes revolve around you getting involved with, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:53):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (18:54):

… different organizations on campus and stuff, so I’ve worked with the Office of Wellbeing, I’ve worked with the Safe Office-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:59):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (18:59):

… a little bit, and so, a lot of the conversations kinda, like, circle back-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:02):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (19:03):

… to, like, mental health-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:03):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (19:03):

… and, like, how are people doing? Like, ha-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:05):

It’s kind of a root of so much.

Austin Torain (19:06):

Yeah, like, how are we doing on campus? Like, what’s going on?And so it’s been really nice, and then kinda like what we talked about a little bit earlier, but, like, I had the privilege of being an RA for, like, two years on campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:16):

Right, that’ll teach you all kinds of things. (laughs)

Austin Torain (19:18):

That’ll teach you a lot about a lot. I don’t know, I remember having a lot of, like, hard conversations with, like, residents about the stress and pressure of just being a college student-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:25):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (19:26):

… and being away from home. I don’t know. It really solidified for me, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:28):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (19:29):

… that’s the kinda work that I want to do, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:31):

It’s so meaningful and I’ve seen how students respond and react to you, so, just keep it up and I know, hopefully, we’ll have opportunities before you get outta here to partner.

Austin Torain (19:40):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:40):

‘Cause it’s a passion. Wake Forest is really one of the institutions across the country that’s really known for supporting students as whole people, so helping people to flourish while they’re here but also it’s launching people into careers and this so that makes a lotta sense.

Austin Torain (19:56):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:56):

We’ve woven music throughout, but I have to ask you, so you are known on campus in a lotta capacities-

Austin Torain (20:03):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (20:03):

… (laughs) as we’ve already mentioned, but one that we have not talked about is Speaker Kid.

Austin Torain (20:07):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:07):

So, you carry a speaker in your backpack.

Austin Torain (20:11):

I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:11):

In fact, we were heading in here to record-

Austin Torain (20:11):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (20:14):

… I heard you. (laughs) And then I saw you, so, I want to know about how this began maybe as a start.

Austin Torain (20:22):

I think one of my friends in high school had, like, brought it up to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:26):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (20:26):

They were like, “Austin, you, like, love music so much and, like, you’re always, like, walking around with your headphones, like, have you ever thought about, like, I don’t know, putting a speaker on you or anything?” Like-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:35):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (20:35):

… maybe as a joke he brought it up.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:37):

Uh-huh, and how old were you?

Austin Torain (20:38):

I was a junior in high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:40):

Okay.

Austin Torain (20:41):

And, like, something, like, clicked for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:42):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (20:42):

And I was like, “You know what? Instead of just listening to, like, music that makes me happy, like, by myself, what if I, like, found a way to, like, share that with other people?”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (20:51):

You know? Like, what if I found-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:52):

Wow.

Austin Torain (20:52):

… a way to, like, bridge this gap of listening to music with your headphones, and listening to music with, like, other people, something about that also really resonated with me ’cause, like, when I was growing up, we did that, like, all the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:03):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (21:03):

We’d just listen to music in the house. We were all-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:05):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (21:05):

… listening to the same thing collectively, and it was, like, this collective experience, so, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:09):

Yeah, I literally have chills right now. (laughs)

Austin Torain (21:10):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (21:11):

Just ’cause it is something you just said about headphones, you’re very internal.

Austin Torain (21:15):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:16):

You’re very, like, you’re enjoying it.

Austin Torain (21:16):

Yeah, but yeah. It was just something about that that kinda, like, clicked for me and I was like, “Yeah, what if I did?” And so I started doing it junior year of high school, I’d just, like, kinda, like, walk around campus, like, doing it. It, like, went really well. Like, people received it really well and I was like-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:29):

Yeah, tell me about some interactions you remember about-

Austin Torain (21:31):

(laughs) Yeah, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:32):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (21:33):

I, similarly, like, wake, I do it a lot more so in, like, dining areas and stuff-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:37):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (21:38):

… like that where people are, like, just having casual conversations, and so I remember the first time I did it in, like, my high school cafeteria, the cafeteria workers were, like, dancing-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:47):

(laughs) Oh, I love that.

Austin Torain (21:48):

… and, like, they were asking me, like, “Oh, what’s that song?”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:50):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (21:51):

Like, “I can’t remember the name of it,” and I was like, “Oh, here it is right here,” and, like, some of my, like, classmates and peers and stuff were, like, rocking out as they were, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (21:57):

… eating, and, like, I don’t know. It, I remember that, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:00):

It’s a whole vibe.

Austin Torain (22:00):

Yeah, I just remember that one really vividly and, like, it goes back to that just, like, happiness of, like, a collective musical experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (22:07):

Like, it just made people feel a little less alone-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:10):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (22:10):

… and I think that was something that was just really beautiful to me, and I was like, “Okay, like, I like this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:14):

That is beautiful.

Austin Torain (22:14):

I like the way this makes people feel, and I like the way that they, like, I don’t know. It just moves this whole narrative of, like, me, me, me, me, me me-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:21):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (22:21):

… and, like, us, and, like, we.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:23):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (22:23):

Like, I like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:23):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (22:24):

I like that a lot. I did it throughout those, like, two years in high school, and then once again, came to college during COVID-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:29):

Right. (laughs)

Austin Torain (22:30):

Such an isolating and lonely time-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:33):

Right.

Austin Torain (22:33):

… and I was like, “What if I just did it at college?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:35):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (22:36):

And so I did, and it was weird. It was hard because it was just such a, like, anxious time for people-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:43):

Sure.

Austin Torain (22:44):

… that I think it just, like, a lot of people were a little confused, and they were like, “What’s going on?”…

Shea Kidd Brown (22:48):

Yeah, I was gonna ask-

Austin Torain (22:48):

… “What’s happening?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:48):

… have you gotten some unexpected in- interactions. (laughs)

Austin Torain (22:52):

Yeah, yeah, you know? People were like, “Weird,” like, “Why is he doing this?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:55):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (22:55):

Like, is everyone, like, what’s going on. Similarly there was just one day I was in the Pit and I was playing, like, Spotlight by, like, Jennifer Hudson-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:04):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (23:05):

… and Miss Sonny, one of the Pit workers, at the cash register-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:07):

How I love Miss Sonny.

Austin Torain (23:08):

… Miss Sonny, such a sweetheart. She staring singing.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:11):

Oh.

Austin Torain (23:11):

And I was like, “Oh, this is why I like doing what I do,” because yeah, maybe some people find it a little weird or off putting but, like, if I can make, like, five people smile a day-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:20):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (23:20):

… just by, like, some random song that they got to hear that they haven’t heard in awhile, then, like, that feels like I’m doing something right, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:26):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (23:26):

Just kinda blossomed. Like, I don’t know. I ended up, like, making a Instagram, like, sophomore year and, like, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:31):

Devoted specifically to it?

Austin Torain (23:33):

Devoted specifically to it. A couple, like, of my professors would be like, “Hey, would you ever, like, wanna, like, DJ at this event?” And things like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:39):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (23:40):

So, like, they do the Night Market-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:41):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (23:41):

… or, like, the Global Market, and I’ve got to, like, DJ at that for, like, the past, like, two or three years. And so, like, it’s just been, like, some really cool opportunities-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:48):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (23:48):

… that have, like, popped up out of it, and so, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:50):

Have you met anybody in particular here through it that you can recall?

Austin Torain (23:55):

Like, I’ve got a chance to just, like, talk a lot with, like the Pit workers and stuff-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:58):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (23:59):

… which has been really awesome. So, like, Miss Sonny, Miss Harriet, Miss Edith, they’re, like, all, like, kinda work at that, like, salad station-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:05):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (24:05):

… fruit station. I’ve had some really awesome conversations with them, and then, like, some of the, like, subway workers and, like, at this point, we’ve, like, exchanged numbers and stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:13):

Wow.

Austin Torain (24:14):

And so, like, like I said, it just goes back to that whole, like, we th- feeling-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:16):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (24:17):

… that I just really wanted. I just wanted to make this place feel a little more like home, for me, and home for me just involved, like, music-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:23):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (24:23):

… and connection, and, like, people-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:25):

Love that.

Austin Torain (24:25):

… I don’t know.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:26):

So do you curate your lists-

Austin Torain (24:28):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (24:28):

… that you play? (laughs)

Austin Torain (24:29):

Yeah. My general rule of thumb is kinda like whatever I’m listening to in the morning I’ll, like, curate some kinda, like, playlist around that-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

Okay.

Austin Torain (24:38):

… kind of vibe and genre, and then I’ll kinda just, like, go from there. But generally if I’m, like, even in the Pit I’ll probably play, like, some Motown or some, like, 80s music-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:46):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (24:47):

… ’cause, like, a lotta the Pit workers are just, like, of that generation and they really love it and, like, my parents are also of that generation-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:52):

Right.

Austin Torain (24:53):

… and so I’m like, “Yeah.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:54):

It comes back to you.

Austin Torain (24:55):

Like, I know this. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:55):

Right, what you were saying.

Austin Torain (24:55):

This feels like home. It’s usually just kind of, like, how I’m feeling.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:59):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (24:59):

Like, I don’t know. I’ve made, like, certain playlists, like I have a WakerSpace playlist-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:03):

Oh, nice.

Austin Torain (25:03):

… I have a Pit playlist, I had to, like, curate a playlist for the Night Market.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:06):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (25:06):

So, like, depends on, like where I am in the environment, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

I need to learn from you. I love music, it is this connector. I mean, you described it so much more articulately than I can. I love hearing other people’s music ’cause I learn. The thing with curated music, now, is you don’t hear things as organically as you might-

Austin Torain (25:23):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:23):

… previously on the radio and I kinda like that ’cause I can (laughs) pick my own music.

Austin Torain (25:27):

Pick want you want.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:28):

I’m actually a creature of habit so I listen to India Arie most mornings.

Austin Torain (25:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:32):

Beautiful Day to start with, but Spotify’s smart, c- so it introduces you to other things-

Austin Torain (25:37):

To other things that kinda, like, sound like it, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:38):

… that you might be interested in, yeah. Yeah, so that, that’s really fascinating, and I love having a window into your why around it. I think the first time I heard you, and I say heard-

Austin Torain (25:49):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:51):

… because (laughs), was in the Pit, and I was like, “Oh, the Pit is, like, popping today.”

Austin Torain (25:54):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:54):

And then I was like, it’s, “Wait, the music’s, the sound is moving.” And then I noticed that, so, you do make such a difference through music, and I love that continued it even though the awkward, you know?

Austin Torain (26:05):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:06):

‘Cause that’s brave to say, “Hey, I’m here.” To take up some space.

Austin Torain (26:09):

Take up some space, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:10):

Yeah. That’s really, really great. So we talked about, you know, some of the things you’re involved in and also your academic passions, and you mentioned the Office of Well Being. I wanted to come back to that, sharing passions around mental health and how a lotta things stem. Another time I interacted with you was during ConsentCon this past year. So you read a poem, and it stuck with me, and so I was also curious… Poetry is clearly another art form-

Austin Torain (26:34):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:35):

… that you enjoy. Talk about that piece, if you remember, but also just your interest in that topic.

Austin Torain (26:41):

So, that piece was on kind of, like, intimate partner violence, and it was just something that, once again, just in the spaces that I’ve been around I’ve had, like, a lot of time to, like, learn about it, and it felt like something that we, like, didn’t talk about enough.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:55):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (26:55):

So, like, I took a Women Engineers Studies class, and there’s, like, this narrative that, like, sexual assault and, like, sexual violence stems from, like, a stranger.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:04):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (27:04):

Like, somebody, like, we don’t know and, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:05):

Right.

Austin Torain (27:06):

… oftentimes that narrative exists, but it’s not the only one.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (27:09):

And so, I kind of wanted to come at it from, like, a lens of, like, this could be someone you really love, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:15):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (27:15):

… someone you care about. This could be someone you’ve been with for a long time or someone you’ve been with for, like, a couple months, but, like, the need to, like, talk about boundaries and, like, asking for consent and just like-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:26):

Right.

Austin Torain (27:26):

… checking in with people, like, when these things are going on is, like, so important and we take it for granted so often that-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:31):

Right.

Austin Torain (27:32):

… like, we just don’t even, like, check in-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:33):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (27:33):

… with our partners anymore sometimes.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:34):

It’s a very important step.

Austin Torain (27:35):

Yeah, and so, I just felt, like, really called to it and at the time I was, like, talking to, like, my friends who had, like, been in situations-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:43):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (27:43):

… that, like, kinda, like, led to some bad things happening and s- it was a time in my life where I just, like, felt really called to, like, just write about it and-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:50):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (27:50):

… like, poetry is definitely another art form that I really like. It’s like a form of reflection, so, like, the things that I’ve been processing in my head just, like, finding them a way to, like, get-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

Right.

Austin Torain (27:57):

… onto a piece of paper. And so I had worked with the Safe Office before, and they were like, “We would love for you to, like, do something for ConsentCon,” and I was like, “Yeah.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:04):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (28:05):

“I’ve actually been, like, working on a poem,” so, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, I really appreciated it and it’s courageous to talk about it, much like we talked about mental health and music and these topics can be challenging to know even where to start, and so I love that you’ve taken lots of things that are in your head and figured out what outlet is important and I just remember it was a great way to start the conference and first of hopefully many we’ll be doing it again-

Austin Torain (28:29):

Again.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:30):

… in February, and maybe we can commission you to do something else.

Austin Torain (28:33):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

But, I loved many things about Higher Ed, but what I appreciate is this is one of the only few environments that I can think of that you can have this sustained period of time where you talk about hard things and not only talk about them, but develop the supports that are needed to connect with students and faculty and staff, and so your art is a way to do that. Again, I appreciate all the ways that you contribute to the campus, they are lengthy. (laughs)

(29:01):

So we’ve talked about Spirit of the Old Gold and Black, you’re a Leadership and Character Scholar, Gordon Scholar, and even an employee of where we’re sitting right now. (laughs)

Austin Torain (29:08):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:09):

So, you’re everywhere Austin, truly.

Austin Torain (29:12):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:12):

It feels that way. So, we talked about this concept of home and how music is home and we haven’t necessarily talked about how Wake Forest has become home for you, so how have you found a sense of belonging here, what does belonging even mean to you? ‘Cause that’s another one of those words that can mean different things to different people.

Austin Torain (29:29):

I think, for me, belonging ultimately just means, like, feeling connected-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:33):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (29:34):

… to something larger than yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (29:37):

And so I just had, like, such an awesome privilege of, like, being in some, like, really wonderful spaces at Wake-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:43):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (29:43):

… with some really wonderful people. The WakerSpace, like, marching band, like, my dance group. Like, I was able to get involved with all of those things freshman year-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:52):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (29:53):

… amidst COVID, and so amidst feeling lonely-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:55):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (29:57):

… and (laughs) like, disconnected.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:58):

Isolated, yeah.

Austin Torain (29:59):

And isolated, I was able to, like, find a community-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:00):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (30:01):

… like, really early on, and it just kinda, like, flourished from there.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:04):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (30:05):

Like, I don’t know. I just became a little more involved at the Waker Space, or, like, the band was able to, like, stop just practicing outside-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:11):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (30:11):

… and we could practice inside again and, like, as things, like, started shifting with dancing we were able to, like, go to, like, competitions and stuff, like, off campus.

(30:19):

It started off, like, really small, just, like, a little way of, like, seeing people-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:23):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (30:23):

… because it felt like I couldn’t see anyone. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Right? (laughs)

Austin Torain (30:25):

You know? And it just felt like a day or two out of the week where I could just, like, get outta my room and go, like, be with people-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:30):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (30:30):

… and then it, like, blossomed into something, like, kind of like a home.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:33):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (30:34):

Like, these are my people now, like, I don’t know. I’ll come to the WakerSpace now when I’m not volunteering-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:39):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (30:39):

… and just hang out.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:42):

Yeah, I’ve seen you just on the couch. (laughs)

Austin Torain (30:42):

(laughs) Like, I’ll just, I’ll just hang out.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:42):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (30:43):

And just, like, I don’t know. Be around Paul and the other volunteers and it just feels a home. It started off as, like, just an excuse to get outta my room-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:49):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (30:49):

… ’cause it was COVID, and I was lonely, and, like, they blossomed into, like, such pinnacle experiences f-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (30:55):

Of, like, my time at Wake that, like, I can’t picture being a Wake student without-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:59):

Right.

Austin Torain (31:00):

… those thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:01):

What would you tell students, which you probably do, (laughs) as you look back and think about the courage to step out and do these things? How would you encourage a student maybe who may be struggling to find connection? What would you want them to know based on, you’re looking in the rear view at this point, not rushing any of your time-

Austin Torain (31:18):

Not the door. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (31:18):

… that you have left, but this senior year probably has a lot of reflection, you’ve mentioned that word a few times.

Austin Torain (31:25):

I think the biggest thing is just, like, willing to be awkward. Like, willing to be in a little awkward phase when you’re, like, finding a new group of people-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (31:35):

… ’cause, like, there’s always that, like, weird, like, norming phase where like-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:37):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (31:38):

… you see these people, but you don’t really, really know these people and it’s like, “How do I move from here?” And, like, in terms of, like, our society we find a lot of, like, discomfort in awkward situations-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:49):

Yes.

Austin Torain (31:50):

… and we, like, tend to, like, run from them.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:51):

Yes.

Austin Torain (31:51):

And, like, that’s valid.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:52):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (31:52):

Like, it’s an uncomfortable experience, but, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:54):

There’s even a phrase, don’t be awk.

Austin Torain (31:55):

Yeah, like I get it.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:55):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (31:56):

Like, I get it, but I would tell me to just, like, lean into that a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:00):

Yeah, yeah.

Austin Torain (32:01):

Like, lean into that discomfort and awkwardness and, like, if it’s something you’re really passionate about, if it’s something you, like, really want to see through, see it through.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:09):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (32:09):

Even if it’s a little awkward, ’cause, like, if I had given up on band when we were, like, masked up and, like, had to practice outside, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (32:16):

… six feet apart, like, I would have never found, like, my band family-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:19):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (32:20):

… like, my band people. Like, I would have never had those experiences and, like, yeah, that first year was awkward.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:24):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (32:25):

Like, so awkward that you couldn’t see peoples’ faces-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:27):

Right.

Austin Torain (32:28):

We had to, like, play with a mask on-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:29):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (32:30):

… which was just weird, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:31):

That’s just strange.

Austin Torain (32:32):

It was so strange, like, it was so awkward but, like, coming from, like, my family and, like, the support that I had, like, I guess for me it was a little easier to lean into that discomfort and I just had to see it through-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:42):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (32:42):

… and, like, now, like, I can’t, like, picture my Wake Forest experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (32:45):

… without some of those things.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:46):

Well and there’s so much to be learned from that discomfort. We all love comfort, right?

Austin Torain (32:51):

We all love it. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (32:51):

We seek it, but it’s the moments of discomfort where you’re having to ask questions of yourself, of the people around you, and then through questions you get some new discoveries and it sounds like that happened for you in the awkward, so, yeah, I think that’s really good advice. Is there advice you would have given yourself?

Austin Torain (33:08):

Hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:09):

As you think back?

Austin Torain (33:10):

I think as the busybody that I am, I wish I would have known early on that pouring into people doesn’t always go the way you want it to.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:22):

Hmm, say more.

Austin Torain (33:23):

Um, like, I’m sure most people at college have experienced this, but, like, that, like, freshman group of friends, that utterly, like, dissipated and we no longer talk-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:32):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (33:32):

… and, like, coming into that, like, I had always had, like, these friends that I had had, like, for years. We were in the same places, we were in the same spaces, and, like, we just stayed friends for year, and it was, like, really hard for me in, like, sophomore year, like that sophomore year slump-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:46):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (33:46):

… where, like, friend groups were breaking up and, like, I just, like, stopped talking to some people and it was, like, hard and I think I put a lot of that blame on myself-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:53):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (33:53):

… I think I took a lot of responsibility for that and I was like, “Maybe you didn’t try hard enough,” or, like, “Maybe there was something you could have said or did,” and I’m like, I would tell, like, past Austin, like, sometimes when you pour into people they just don’t pour back. It’s a reality that, like, you can’t spend, like, your nights just wracking your head around it.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (34:10):

Like, sometimes you just have to learn to let it go. I think I wrestled with some of that for, like, longer than I needed to-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:15):

That’s hard.

Austin Torain (34:16):

… and it made some things a little hard, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:18):

Yeah, and it’s hard when you, you’ve described yourself as you care a lot about people. So, when you put your heart and energy into these relationships that don’t always reciprocate, you know, that is tough.

Austin Torain (34:29):

I’d tell past Austin to go a little bit easy on himself, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (34:33):

Oh, yeah.

Austin Torain (34:34):

Like, it happens, not all friendships were meant to last a lifetime and, like, that’s okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:37):

Yeah, that makes sense. That’s really good advice. And just being kind to yourself, I think we’re all very hard on ourselves, and people are transient in college, you know, in addition to some that you may have felt like didn’t reciprocate, it’s this constant thing that’s moving-

Austin Torain (34:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:52):

… whereas it sounds like before you got here things were barely still.

Austin Torain (34:56):

Pretty stable, yeah, pretty consistent.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:57):

Yeah, pretty stable, yeah.

Austin Torain (34:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:58):

So you’ve mentioned COVID a few times, and you’re a part of what seniors call the COVID Class.

Austin Torain (35:02):

The COVID Class.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:04):

So are there any other lessons that you can recall that you’re taking into this senior year but also that you feel like you’ll be taking into the next steps?

Austin Torain (35:12):

I think a really beautiful thing k- kinda came out of COVID was this intentionality, being with people and being in certain spaces. ‘Cause I think before college and COVID and all of that, I just happened to be in spaces, like, things just kinda happened-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:27):

Right.

Austin Torain (35:27):

… ’cause we all grew up in the same place, it was very stable-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:29):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (35:30):

… it was very constant. During COVID, like, so little to do, you kinda-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:33):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (35:33):

… had to be a little more intentional about, like, where you were going and then coming out of COVID with there being so much to do-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:39):

Right.

Austin Torain (35:40):

… you had to be a little more intentional with, like, where your time was going and, like, I think coming out of this I just want to continue that track of, like, being intentional with, like, how I spend my time-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:50):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (35:50):

… whether that be, like, with people, or, like, taking time for myself or, like, taking time to do the things that I love. Just being more intentional about it-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:58):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (35:58):

… and, like, just not expecting self care to just happen, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (36:01):

Right.

Austin Torain (36:01):

Like, and not just expecting, like, people to just show up in my life and, like, be there forever-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:06):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (36:06):

… and just, like, learning to be more intentional I think is something that kinda college and Wake has taught me and it’s something that I just definitely want to k- like, continue working on, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:15):

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I think we interrupted all the things we took for granted. (laughs)

Austin Torain (36:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:20):

So, whether it’s being face to face like we are right now, or being able to assemble with a group or those kinds of things, for me, and it sounds like for you, it’s this great clarifier of values (laughs) and sounds like we’re similar in this, people told me I was an extrovert before but I really understood what extroversion meant (laughs) when I was in the house by myself. Yeah.

Austin Torain (36:42):

When COVID hit. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (36:42):

Yeah, so, um, well thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me, sounds like amazing lessons and I’m certainly learning as we’re talking.

(36:49):

So, there’s one last big important thing (laughs) that I want to ask you. So, I borrowed this from Brené Brown’s podcast Unlocking Us, but before we got together the only question I asked you ahead of time was what are five songs you can’t live without?

Austin Torain (37:03):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:04):

Tell me how excruciating that was. (laughs)

Austin Torain (37:09):

(laughs) As, like, a really big music person-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:10):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (37:11):

… there are, like, so many songs that, like, when I hear them they bring me a lot of joy.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:14):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (37:14):

And, like, for me, music has always kinda been about, like, emotions, and so, like, songs that can make me feel intense joy or, like, intense contentness-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:22):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (37:23):

… or, like, anger or sadness-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:24):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (37:24):

… like, have always really spoke to me, and so when it came down (laughs) to, like, narrowing it to, like, five songs, I couldn’t, like, live without-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:31):

It’s, it’s pretty impossible. (laughs)

Austin Torain (37:32):

It was hard, it was tough, it was so impossible, and I was like, “I really just need them to, like, encompass some, like, different emotions.”

Shea Kidd Brown (37:39):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (37:39):

So, like, I think I had, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:41):

You want me to read ’em to you? Will that be-

Austin Torain (37:43):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:43):

Okay. So you gave me “I Want You Back” by the Jackson 5, “I Like It” by DeBarge, “Love On Top” Beyonce, “Talking To the Moon” Bruno Mars, and “Rock My World.” So, you said, “This was insanely tough for me, but I think it’s pretty accurate.”

Austin Torain (37:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:58):

So tell me what this list says about you, I think that’s where you were headed.

Austin Torain (38:01):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, “I Want You Back” is, like, very central to my upbringing. It was probably, like, one of the, like, earliest songs that I really remember liking.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:11):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (38:11):

And once again, we, like, listened to, like, a lot of, like, Motown and just, like, Jackson 5 and, like, that kinda stuff when I was, like, growing up and so it’s very, like, it’s warm.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:18):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (38:19):

Like, it just reminds me of home.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:20):

I gives you life.

Austin Torain (38:20):

And so, like, I was like, “I definitely need that one.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:22):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (38:23):

And so then for “I Like It,” it’s actually my mom’s favorite song, and, like, in terms of just, like, emotions, that one just kinda, like, always makes me feel content-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:32):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (38:32):

… again, like, just that, like, warm, like, I’m home feeling-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:35):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (38:36):

… and, like, I don’t know. I was like, “If I couldn’t hear that one, that would kind of break me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:38):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (38:39):

And so then “Love On Top,” it’s that energy, it’s that, like, joy-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:43):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (38:44):

… that music brings for me most of the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:45):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (38:45):

And I was like-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:45):

And you know it immediately.

Austin Torain (38:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:46):

Like, when it comes on-

Austin Torain (38:47):

Like, when it comes on it’s like-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:48):

Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Austin Torain (38:48):

“Oh, that’s it.” So I was like, “I definitely need that one,” ’cause I don’t know, whenever I hear it it just makes me want to dance-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:53):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (38:54):

… and I was like, “I love dancing,” so. Needed that one, and then “Talking to the Moon” is, like, a, kinda like a ballad that Bruno Mars wrote about, like, losing love.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:02):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (39:02):

And so, I like to feel my emotions so I was like, “I need something that’s gonna make me, like, just-“

Shea Kidd Brown (39:07):

In your feelings?

Austin Torain (39:08):

Be a little sad a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:08):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (39:09):

Just feel a little sad and reflect on life, and so I threw that one on there, love Bruno Mars, huge fan of him.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:13):

Mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (39:14):

And then the last one is another Michael Jackson song, “Rock My World,” and that’s another one that I just hear and, like, the beat just makes me want to, like, dance, and so I was like, “I’ll toss that one on there.”

Shea Kidd Brown (39:23):

Yeah.

Austin Torain (39:24):

But it was tough.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:24):

Yeah. (laughs)

Austin Torain (39:24):

It was hard. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (39:25):

I know that is really hard.

Austin Torain (39:27):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:27):

If I had to do that I would struggle. It does show the multidimensional aspects of you, and the, the emotion, the connection, getting excited, getting hyped, being in your feelings a little bit.

Austin Torain (39:39):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:40):

So, thank you for sharing that, and we’ll have to figure out how to connect that to the podcast in the show notes or, or something like that-

Austin Torain (39:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:46):

… so people can download those songs. So, I want to just close by saying thank you. Lot of gratitude for you and for you spending time with me. I would love for you to tell me what you’re grateful for and what you’re hopeful for to close this out.

Austin Torain (39:59):

I’m also really just grateful for this opportunity. It means a lot to get to talk to Dr. Shea Kidd Brown in her podcast.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:05):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (40:06):

And, like, Paul, was, like, flipping. He was so excited about it.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:09):

Oh, I love it.

Austin Torain (40:09):

He was like, “One of my volunteers,” I was like, “Yeah.”

Shea Kidd Brown (40:11):

(laughs)

Austin Torain (40:12):

Really grateful for, like, people. Like, I don’t know. I got a chance to, like, talk to my mom last night on the phone and, like, grateful for her, grateful for my sister and just grateful for the weather today. It’s kinda nice outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:22):

Yeah, it is nice out.

Austin Torain (40:23):

And then, hopeful and, or just, like, in terms of looking forward to things, excited about Thanksgiving.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:28):

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Austin Torain (40:28):

You know? Ready to be home with the whole family and just eating good food.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:32):

Right?

Austin Torain (40:32):

So-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:33):

Back to the comforts of home.

Austin Torain (40:34):

Back to the comforts of home.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:35):

Well, thank you. You are a great gift to the university, to any community that you touch, and I certainly feel grateful for getting to share time and space with you. So thank you for being with me today.

Austin Torain (40:47):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:47):

I so enjoyed my conversation with Austin. He’s pretty amazing, right? There were just so many nuggets out there that he talked about, and I know that many of us can attest to the wisdom of embracing the awkward, and what about the why that he shared around music? For those of you who are on the Wake Forest campus, you might have heard Austin before you saw him. So to now know the why behind it, it’s all about bringing people together, and I love that.

(41:15):

I’m also recalling how Austin connected a real life experience around therapy to his life’s work. If you’re out there trying to figure out what’s next for you, I want you to think about looking within. What are you drawn to naturally? Where do your conversations go without a lot of effort? What do you value? What has happened to you that makes you curious about how you could be a part of creative solutions for the future?

(41:40):

These are the questions we need to be asking when we’re thinking about meaning and purpose in our lives, and if you’re on the campus of Wake Forest, I do encourage you to listen and look out for Austin. His music will likely make your day a little brighter.

(41:55):

Thank you again for listening, it means so much to me, and I’m hopeful that Austin and others will help you come back to you, your story, and the surprising connections to our shared humanity, because here’s the thing. We all have something to contribute to the world, and we keep learning that over and over and over through these episodes. It’s surprising, yet it’s pretty simple. I kid you not.

(42:20):

So, until next time, keep leaning into the hard work, and the heart work of our lives.

MaryAnna Bailey (42:27):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life Team.

(42:33):

For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Austin’s Top 5 Songs

Episode 7: Chief Regina Lawson

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Regina Lawson, a vital member of the campus life team who serves as the chief of the Wake Forest University Police Department. You’ll hear about her childhood in a small town, what compelled her to join law enforcement, what her time at Wake (over 20 years) has been like and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea. And this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title.

(00:27):

Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life. In my role at Wake Forest University, I get to work with some pretty amazing people. And in fact, when I was transitioning here, I earned points with my son when I shared that I will get work alongside the Chief of Police. Today, I get to talk to Assistant Vice President and Chief of Police Regina Lawson.

(01:03):

Regina is a member of my leadership team and has been at Wake Forest for more than 30 years. She’s an active contributor in her field through the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators, also known as IACLEA. In fact, Wake Forest was the first accredited police department in the country. Today, that number sits at 73. Chief Lawson is passionate about the student experience and the mission of UP is to provide a safe and inclusive community where students, faculty, staff, and visitors may experience a sense of security and belonging. I look forward to visiting with her today.

(01:38):

So, hello, and welcome. How are you?

Regina Lawson (01:41):

Hi, I’m doing good. How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:43):

I’m doing well. We have both had full days today.

Regina Lawson (01:46):

It’s Monday.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

It is Monday, the day we’re recording is beginning of a week, which means we are rolling (laughs) in here and not sure what may come of today’s conversation after a Monday. So, I’m really glad to talk with you. And I imagine there’s a whole lot we could dig into given your job and my job and how we work closely together. So, you ready to get started?

Regina Lawson (02:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:08):

Okay. So, starting with the common questions become a theme to start with this concept of home. So, where’s home for you? We’ll start there.

Regina Lawson (02:15):

Yeah. So, that’s funny. I’m Regina Lawson from Lawsonville, North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

Really? (laughs) Nice.

Regina Lawson (02:21):

I grew up in very small town in Stokes County and until I went to the first grade, I lived on Aubrey Lawson Road, which is named after my grandfather.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Oh, wow.

Regina Lawson (02:31):

Yeah. Very small town. The welcome sign was on one post, you know. (laughs) That’s just a joke-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:37):

Nice.

Regina Lawson (02:37):

… that the locals tell. But-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:38):

Right.

Regina Lawson (02:38):

Yeah, it’s very small.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:40):

Yeah. Do you remember what the population was?

Regina Lawson (02:43):

It is a few 100.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Really?

Regina Lawson (02:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (02:45):

It’s very rural, farming community. We have an elementary school, country store and a post office that has actually scaled back to, like, shorter hours now.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

Hmm. We’ve never talked about that.

Regina Lawson (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

And we talk a lot.

Regina Lawson (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Yeah. So, you have a namesake-

Regina Lawson (02:59):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

… in your city, in your street. And the second part of that question is what does home mean to you? So, oftentimes, people say, “Where are you from?” And I’ll say, “Where’s home for you?” I would love to just hear your thoughts on what does that mean? What does that word home mean to you?

Regina Lawson (03:14):

Yeah. Lawsonville was a great place to grow up.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:17):

But it was also the kind of place that as you got older into the teenage years, you kind of wanted to leave and go explore.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:25):

But it’s amazing how myself and many others ended up gravitating back-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:31):

… you know, to that area. And I don’t think that it’s too uncommon. But home is kind of where you have your roots and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:38):

… where you feel comfortable and just… you know I don’t live there now.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Right.

Regina Lawson (03:44):

But we still have the family farm and it’s just somewhere when you go, you just have this special kind of nostalgic, reminiscent kind of experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:55):

And soak in all the smells of fresh mowed hay-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (04:00):

… or cow pastures (laughs) or-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:03):

… the smell of rain calming you.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:04):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:05):

You know, those kinds of outdoor things that just kind of remind you of home.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Mm-hmm. All of that. I remember when we did that activity where we talked about “I am from…” and it was like sights and sounds and smells when you said, hay bells that reminded me of that. I think about pine trees and sand and ocean smells, so kind of transports you back when you think about home but also we all both created home in other places, too. So… and really, I should have started with this. But people know you as our Chief of Police, but we all have an origin story.

(04:34):

So, I love hearing a little bit more about that and to dig into that a bit more. Can you tell me a little bit about your family? And maybe tell me about your grandfather, what you remember, but anything you want to share about your family? And-

Regina Lawson (04:46):

I think what’s interesting is we were working class but we were pretty much poor.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (04:50):

I mean, I lived in a house with no bathroom until the first grade and I say that-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:54):

Really?

Regina Lawson (04:54):

… not for sympathy. Just, you know, you don’t know… yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:56):

It contextualizes. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:58):

What you don’t know. And our family were farmers.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:01):

My mother’s family had relocated from West Virginia where they had been coal miners and my grandfather on my mom’s side worked for Pike Electric and actually helped to build Camp Lejeune military base.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:13):

And that’s where my mom was born. And then, my grandfather on my dad’s side was the farmer, horse trader, and he was just someone who seems just like we had a special relationship.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:25):

You’re not supposed to have favorites, but I think he and I both had-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:27):

(laughing)

Regina Lawson (05:29):

… favorites. I mean, there’s a picture of my office when I’m not even old enough to walk and it’s he and I on horse-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

On a horse? Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:35):

… together, you know. He was a just a very practical, down to earth, problem solver-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:40):

… very, you know, innovative.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

(laughs) Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:44):

And then, he come to had big gardens and our family farmed tobacco.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (05:48):

When that was kinda the cash crop.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:50):

So, it’s kind of the way I grew up. My dad actually worked in Department of Corrections. And my uncle on my mom’s side actually worked for the Sheriff’s Department. And so, they were kind of indirectly somehow inspired me to go into law enforcement-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (06:06):

… although that wasn’t my first major. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Okay. Well, I want to dig into all of that. So, before we go there, I mean, I wanna talk about horses. (laughs) I wanna talk about law enforcement. I want to talk about not having indoor plumbing (laughs) and farming. So, I’m curious what you learned from farming. You know, were you a part of that? Do you have memories of being part of that as a child?

Regina Lawson (06:26):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:26):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (06:27):

And, you know, it, it taught me a lot. And one thing sometimes in the work, you can get through a day, you don’t necessarily look back and see tangible results.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:36):

Right.

Regina Lawson (06:36):

When you’re on the farm, and you’ve plowed the field-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

Right.

Regina Lawson (06:39):

… you see tangible results.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:40):

Yeah. (laughs) Look what I did.

Regina Lawson (06:41):

Yeah. Yeah. So… and it taught you that a lot of things are not in your control.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:47):

You know, the weather and just catastrophic conditions sometimes and-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Sure.

Regina Lawson (06:51):

But it also taught you the value of labor-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:55):

… and how you have to care for the land-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:57):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:57):

… and the environment, and made me very passionate about that. The office will tell you I’m big on recycling, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (07:03):

But it also taught me the value of money. My sister and I, we started our own checking accounts when we were 13.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

Really?

Regina Lawson (07:12):

We had our allocated two acres of tobacco.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:15):

So, that was our own money-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (07:15):

… and our income.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:18):

And we had to pay for our expenses.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:21):

And pay for the staff.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

And you had to pay for your staff?

Regina Lawson (07:23):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:23):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:24):

Wait, when I say staff that that’s in today’s word.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

Right.

Regina Lawson (07:26):

We had to pay for our help-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:28):

… that helped us with the crops.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:31):

And that was a way that my sister and I made money by going and-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:34):

… working for other families.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (07:36):

And people would come and we would have to pay per hour.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:40):

It was a morning that we had three people help us. They work for five hours, we had to write our checks.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:46):

So, we had to pay them.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

Gosh, that teaches you something really early, and also that you went, and worked, and sort of reciprocated that in different ways. Were there particular crops that you worked in, on? I don’t know the right language. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (07:58):

Yeah. So, primarily tobacco. Tobacco is-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

So, you did that as well?

Regina Lawson (08:02):

Correct.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (08:03):

We would help other families-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (08:05):

… get up hay, we mowed yards.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (08:07):

That was the kind of jobs in the community because-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

Right.

Regina Lawson (08:10):

… you didn’t have McDonald’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

Right. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (08:12):

… to work at.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:14):

No, no. I mean, the things you said that you learned about it even down to sustainability, like to be able to in a very simple form, put a seed in the ground and will not have that instant gratification on some levels, but to plow the field and have the instant gratification. I mean, that there’s probably a million life lessons that you could go down and, and think about that.

(08:31):

I think about my 14-year-old who let’s just say hasn’t written a check. They don’t really, don’t really do that these days. But even just as a good reminder for me as a mom, like those things you can teach your kids really early. They can have a responsibility to steward that. So, he has a little bit of an allowance. So, now, he’s very selective on how he spends his money.

Regina Lawson (08:50):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

He’s not as selective on how he spends my money. Now, did you have siblings?

Regina Lawson (08:55):

I am the oldest of three daughters.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (08:57):

So, I had a younger sister that very close, we’re 10 months apart.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:02):

And then, the baby-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:02):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (09:04):

… nine years later.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (09:05):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

The caboose.

Regina Lawson (09:05):

The caboose-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:07):

… came along and, uh, we’re very fortunate we all live in Winston-Salem area.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:11):

Now, we’ve lived other places very close. My father would jokingly tell people, he said three strikes, and he was out, I think he wanted a son.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (09:20):

But he kind of-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

And he was in.

Regina Lawson (09:24):

Yeah, he was. He imparted a lot of skills in us that he would probably-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:26):

… taught his sons as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:30):

So, we, we learned a lot. And I think it benefited us whether it was how to change a flat tire-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:32):

… and how to drive a tractor.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:34):

Things like that. And the other thing he would jokingly say having three daughters and a wife was he never really got to spend a lot of time in the bathroom. And that we never got anywhere on time. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Yeah. (laughs) Some of those stereotypes are true, right? So, I have to ask you about horses because you mentioned riding horse with your grandfather. So, is that where the love of horses? So, for those who don’t know, the chief really enjoys riding horses and spends time, but you don’t really have a lot of downtime, but the downtime you have doing that. So, talk a little bit about that.

Regina Lawson (10:05):

It’s kind of my therapy. And I’ve had horses pretty much my whole life. When I was in college, my grandfather passed away. And it didn’t make sense at the time. So, we ended up selling horses. So, there’s a small period of time when I actually didn’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:20):

… have a horse even on the farm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (10:22):

But it’s three or four years, not very, long, you know- (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:23):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:25):

… of my long life. But I look at it as kind of therapy, my escape.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:28):

Horses, you either love them or hate them.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:30):

And you have to love them because they are a lot of work.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:32):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (10:33):

But become a second family and they are just like pets, if you have cats or dogs.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:38):

Very big pets. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (10:38):

Very big pets, they have all personality differences and look at cleaning the stalls it’s just something-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:46):

… kind of its work. But it’s also there’s something therapeutic-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:50):

… about that just spending time at the barn just gives me just a break from the day.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:55):

And admittedly, there are still some places that you can take horses where cellphones don’t reach.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Oh. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:02):

(laughs) So, I got-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

So, you get to really disconnect. And I would imagine answering a cellphone on a horse would be dangerous anyway.

Regina Lawson (11:08):

You know, it can be, but you’d be amazed. Sometimes like we go on these rides, and all of a sudden, you’ll see people kind of huddle up and you’ll see them all on their phones because there’s a spot where they’ve got cell service.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Cell service. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:18):

And so, they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (11:18):

… they’re all FaceTime-ing.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (11:18):

Like things like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Oh, that is funny.

Regina Lawson (11:25):

So, it’s kind of odd that you go from the Pony Express-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:28):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:28):

… Messenger days to-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

Right.

Regina Lawson (11:29):

… watching everybody on their phones on the horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:30):

On their cellphone. Yeah. Well, have you done competitions or?

Regina Lawson (11:33):

You know, over the years, you know, certainly my grandfather, we used to go to these little backyard shows and rodeos.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (11:39):

And something that’s really enjoyable, but you… in this today’s environment, you have to have a sponsor or be independently wealthy.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:48):

Yeah. It’s so expensive.

Regina Lawson (11:49):

They’re very much very expensive. And one, because of the travel-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (11:54):

… you have to have a job that has flexibility. And, you know, there was a point in time where you can have kind of mediocre horses and be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (12:00):

But now you have to have the athletes.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

That won’t work. Okay. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (12:01):

Yeah. To be, you know, competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

Right.

Regina Lawson (12:05):

Like a lot of other things. The things I do enjoy, it’s called ranch sorting or, you know, cutting and you can have an okay horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:12):

And it’s just a lot of fun. It’s for the fun of it. And you do compete, you and, um, partner on horses go in and you go into a herd of cows and you-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:22):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:23):

… cut the cows out, you know, they call out a number, you cut the cows out and you’re timed and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

So, what is the cut the cow out mean?

Regina Lawson (12:30):

The cut the cow means sometimes you have 10 cows and sometimes you have more cows. Usually, they’re numbered.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:37):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:38):

And so, when they announcer calls out the number, you go into the herd, on your horse, and you extract that numbered cow out.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:45):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (12:46):

And then, you go in sequence. So, if they call out number two, you go get number two-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:50):

… take it out of the pen, then you go get number three.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

But when you go get it, what does that mean? What do you- (laughs)

Regina Lawson (12:56):

So, yeah, you ride it. You know, this is really good, this challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:57):

Yeah. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (13:00):

So, uh, you, you ride your horse toward that-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Okay. To the cow?

Regina Lawson (13:03):

… cow, in the herd.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:04):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:05):

And you kind of circle it with your horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:06):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:07):

You don’t rope it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:08):

You just kind of have to convince it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:10):

To come with you?

Regina Lawson (13:11):

To come with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Oh, interesting.

Regina Lawson (13:13):

But you’re… you know, in horse language it’s called pushing a cow out.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:16):

So, you kind of get behind the cow. And then, the word cutting comes from your horse maneuvers in such a way that your horse really kind of, again, circles the cow-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (13:28):

… extracts the cow-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:29):

… from the herd. At some of the round robins, you ride with different people, different teammates.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:34):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (13:35):

You can have really good riders or beginners.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (13:41):

And so, it’s just a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

I got to check this out. I need to look on YouTube, so I can get a visual.

Regina Lawson (13:43):

I’ll send you some videos.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:44):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (13:45):

And I could talk all day about it. But that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

That’s… I’m fascinated, I wanna know more.

Regina Lawson (13:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:48):

So, have you had, I mean, any kind of injury or anything that made you not wanna do that anymore?

Regina Lawson (13:54):

You know, I’ve been really lucky. I’ve been hurt several times, but nothing real serious. You know, early days, I think I was in the first grade, maybe. I was on a horse and it just kind of took off running and I fell off.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:10):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:10):

My foot was in the stirrup, so it-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:11):

Oh, wow.

Regina Lawson (14:12):

Yeah, but got through that okay. And then-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:14):

Mm-hmm. You know what it means to get back in the saddle for real?

Regina Lawson (14:15):

I mean, I do. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (14:15):

And sometimes it’s a little unnerving if-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

Not bad.

Regina Lawson (14:20):

If people tell you they’re not scared, you have to just kind of overcome that.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:25):

But I mean, I’ve gotten to a point riding that, um, I’m not going to take the risks that I’ve taken, you know, previously-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:31):

… because I’ve had broken leg, three broken fingers.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Oh, my gosh. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (14:36):

A lot over the years. I mean, a lot of-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:39):

… fractured ribs.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

Oh, my gosh. Just from-

Regina Lawson (14:41):

Rib just trying the most-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:42):

… from falling off or?

Regina Lawson (14:43):

From coming off. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (14:45):

That’s just kind of a common.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (14:46):

Depending on how you hit, but, but I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:48):

That’s amazing.

Regina Lawson (14:49):

… compared to a lot of people, they get seriously injured.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:50):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (14:50):

I’ve been very fortunate and-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

No, that’s amazing that you’ve been fortunate, and that you’ve been willing to do it again. You know, I can draw a lot of parallels to what I see in you today. And in terms of in a tough job, and we’ll talk about that in a little bit. But we’ve always talked surfacey about horses and I know that’s, uh, an area that you get to just be. And we all need that. We all need outlets to be able to do that. So, I love that. So, who were you as a child? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:18):

So, I’m going to tell stories about me. For some reason, I stored my toy guns in the refrigerator.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:23):

Are you serious? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:27):

And I, I always had like cuts or bruises on my legs and I wear cowboy boots all the time, even with shorts. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

That is amazing. The refrigerator? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:36):

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t… or maybe I thought it was a safe. I don’t, I don’t know. And to the day my first grade school teacher passed away, every time I saw her somewhere.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:46):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (15:46):

She always told the story about me being in the first grade. And this was a teacher that taught her whole career at the same-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (15:52):

… elementary school. She taught my father and my uncle.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:56):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (15:57):

And so, in the first grade, somehow we were running on the sidewalk and I fell and skint my knees.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:01):

That’s when you wore dresses to-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:03):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:03):

… go to school all the time. And I told my teacher, I said, “I’ll be okay. My pa has a blue horse medicine he’ll put on my knees and they’ll be fine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:10):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (16:11):

And so, she loved telling that story-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Yes.

Regina Lawson (16:14):

… every time I saw her.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Of that event. That is-

Regina Lawson (16:14):

Yeah. She’s like, “I’m fine. My pa has a blue horse medicine.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

That’ll fix it all.

Regina Lawson (16:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

So, you were, uh, from the beginning resourceful, and it sounds like rugged, and able to compete with whoever you needed to.

Regina Lawson (16:30):

People have often kind of call me like gritty or-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:33):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:34):

… and a kind of we had a saying in our family, if you’re going to be dumb, you better be tough.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (16:39):

So, if you made a bad decision, you better be ready for the consequences of that-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (16:46):

… you know, this horse is ready.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:46):

Or this horse is not ready or-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (16:47):

… should I have, that came up a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:49):

You have the most amazing sayings. (laughs) I know when I came here to work, I was like, “Okay. I got to write this down. There are three sides to every story.” That’s one. You said something about creature?

Regina Lawson (16:58):

Creature comfort?

Shea Kidd Brown (16:59):

Yes. Creature comforts.

Regina Lawson (17:00):

Yeah. Yeah. I talk about that at the EOC.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:02):

Yes. Yes.

Regina Lawson (17:02):

Yeah. We have to have our creature comforts.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

Absolutely. And three sides to every story was, if I remember correctly, you hear both sides. And then, you make sense of the middle, essentially. So, there’s three sides, and I definitely use that every day. So, we talked about you storing guns in the refrigerator?

Regina Lawson (17:17):

Toy gun, toy gun.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:18):

A toy. Thank you for clarifying. Toy guns. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (17:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

What was your childhood career? Did you know… well, I know, for me, I wanted to be a veterinarian, and I realized that vets have to work on horses to connect this dot and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know about that.” So, did you have a childhood dream job?

Regina Lawson (17:33):

You know, I, I wanted to be a cowboy.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Did you? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (17:37):

Yeah. And, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (17:39):

… and I grew up in the era where you watch like Gunsmoke-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:41):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:42):

… and, uh, Bonanza, and my favorite was the Wild Wild West.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:46):

And that was Jim West and Artemus Gordon, and they were US Secret Service agents-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:50):

… working for that time, President Grant. And so, so, I think that’s where I kind of developed this interest in law and order.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:58):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:58):

And then, kind of career wise. But it was really about-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:01):

… riding the horses and the guns. Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:03):

Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. And you said that wasn’t your first. Your major wasn’t connected to that in college?

Regina Lawson (18:09):

It wasn’t. And in this is kind of a, a funny story. In high school, I took accounting.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:16):

And I liked that because you feel like you had money. You know, you’re always, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:19):

All the scenarios.

Regina Lawson (18:20):

… were doing these exercises and stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:22):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (18:22):

So, I was an accounting major for one semester.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:24):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (18:24):

And I went back to school, you know, after Christmas break. And that was back in the day when you stood in the long drop/add lines and the big gym.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

Mm-hmm. And remind us where you went to school?

Regina Lawson (18:34):

UNC Wilmington.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:34):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (18:37):

I changed my major to sociology.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:40):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:41):

And minored in criminal justice.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (18:42):

And that summer I started working the day I got home for school for summer break-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:48):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:48):

… at the Stokes County Sheriff’s Department and worked up until the Friday before I went back to school on Sunday.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:54):

Hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:54):

And then, when I got back to UNCW, I started working for their version of Deacon Student Patrol like-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:00):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (19:01):

So, that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:02):

And was there a moment that you said… I know you said you were in accounting for a semester. But did you connect… you talked about your parents being involved in law enforcement or family members?

Regina Lawson (19:13):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:13):

Was that kind of a through line always or was there something that you were exposed to in college that made that feel like it could be a career for you?

Regina Lawson (19:20):

My uncle who was then a Major for the Sheriff’s Department, he was the one that had a need, an individual, the records manager was going to be out on maternity leave, the exact same month I was home for a break.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (19:34):

So, that gave me tons of exposure and experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (19:38):

I got to go up in a helicopter and look at marijuana.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

And you were how old?

Regina Lawson (19:43):

I was 19.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:44):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (19:44):

Yeah. But it was just because detectives kind of took me under their wing.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (19:49):

And they… I jokingly say I solved my first case then because the office building that we were in was attached to the jail and, uh, jail trustees cleaned, the custodial work.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:02):

And there was actually drop ceilings kind of like in this room and there was dust on the table.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:08):

And it wasn’t there today before. And I was down there cleaning up old files. And all of a sudden, I told one of the detectives about it, and realized that they were going in through the ceiling tiles and getting contraband out of property and evidence.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:22):

Oh, no way.

Regina Lawson (20:23):

So, yeah. So, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:24):

You really did.

Regina Lawson (20:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

I mean, that was a big deal.

Regina Lawson (20:26):

Uh, it was. I mean, I didn’t realize how big of a deal it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (20:30):

… until later in my career.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:31):

And talk about the noticing, so often we’re so busy, and we don’t recognize these tiny little details. And that was something that was so significant to cracking that case.

Regina Lawson (20:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:42):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (20:43):

Another funny piece of that is like, I read a police report. That’s a one-page police report on a murder.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:50):

And I was like, “How can this be all?”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:52):

Right. (laughs) Yeah.

Regina Lawson (20:54):

It was just a different time.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Yeah. Interesting.

Regina Lawson (20:57):

I would say 1982.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (20:59):

Yeah. I know, a long time ago.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:01):

So, you had that opportunity when person was on parental leave-

Regina Lawson (21:05):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:05):

… to really see it up close. And then, is that when you came back and you were like, “I wanna do sociology and minor in criminal justice?”

Regina Lawson (21:12):

Correct. I’d already changed majors, but that kind of solidified things for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (21:15):

And I’d actually me and my sister over that Christmas break, and went to see a movie called My Squad. So, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to be an FBI agent.” So, I was, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (21:24):

… building my resume.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:26):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (21:26):

And that’s what I was working on that.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

You went from cowboy to?

Regina Lawson (21:27):

Yeah. To FBI.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

FBI agent.

Regina Lawson (21:32):

Yeah. The summer after I turned 21 because you had to be 21 to go to the academy.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:36):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (21:37):

And you could be sponsored by another agency, you didn’t have to be employed. I went to the bank and borrowed $600 to pay my three months of rent.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (21:46):

Because I can work on the weekends to make enough spending money. But I… that paid my rent and utilities. So, I went to the academy. And then, I still just worked part-time because I didn’t want a full-time job because I’m still going to school.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

School. Right.

Regina Lawson (21:58):

So, the next year after I got the second job offer to be a full-time officer, I took it. I still graduated in six years. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

That is unreal. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:07):

… that was… yeah, I was pretty happy about that. But it was really because I had people that were great mentors.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:14):

And inspired me and helped me see the value of, uh, developing kind of the work resume.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:21):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:22):

Also how continuing my education was important.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:24):

That I shouldn’t stop that.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:26):

And just focus on the paycheck.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:27):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:28):

Because easily sometimes that really gets in the way, especially as a young person, when you start earning money, it’s really tempting-

Regina Lawson (22:35):

Yeah. It very.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:35):

… to just take a time out from school.

Regina Lawson (22:37):

Very tempting. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:39):

So, I was glad I didn’t do that. And the other thing I learned along the way is stick with a smaller agency, because you get to be more of a generalist.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:46):

Mm-hmm. You learn everything.

Regina Lawson (22:48):

Yeah. Learn a lot. But that was helpful. And I also… I’ve been very fortunate that I came into campus law enforcement to build my resume. But it was a time that just really beginning to become respected and understood.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (23:05):

And, and certainly through my time, has become now a career option-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:09):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (23:10):

… as opposed to just kind of-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:11):

Like happenstance?

Regina Lawson (23:12):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:13):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (23:13):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:14):

So, you mentioned there’s mentors and people who sounds like had your best interests at heart. They saw a need as it related to law enforcement, but also wanted to make sure you finished. Are there people that come to mind, especially that made a specific impact on your life, or imprint on your life?

Regina Lawson (23:29):

There are several and, and sadly, some of them have passed.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (23:34):

And one in particular, Billy Dawson, and he’s still living, and he was eventually became the chief at UNCW. But the funny story is when I went by the campus police department to get an application, he’s a big kind of larger-than-life individual. And I stopped by, big, gruff voice says, “Can I help you?” “Yes, I’m looking for an application.” He goes over to the file cabinet. He opens it up-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:59):

Uh-huh.

Regina Lawson (23:59):

… hands it to me, he closes the back, “Fill it out, bring it back.” He kind of intimidate me.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Yeah. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (24:04):

So, I was very reluctant to bring it back, but I didn’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:07):

And this is when you’re still a student?

Regina Lawson (24:08):

I was still a student.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:08):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (24:10):

That was my freshman year. I had to fill it out in the spring to get the job in the fall.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (24:14):

And so, ended up being as scary as that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:18):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (24:19):

… for a freshmen student, just because of this kind of larger-than-life-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Right.

Regina Lawson (24:23):

… not very talkative individual.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:24):

Yeah. It’s already an intimidating environment.

Regina Lawson (24:29):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

And then, you add that to it.

Regina Lawson (24:29):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (24:30):

And he became one of my biggest fans even to this day-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:33):

Aw.

Regina Lawson (24:33):

… we stay in touch and I try to talk to him, you know, every few months. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

That’s great.

Regina Lawson (24:38):

And just, uh, incredibly key person that influenced me-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:43):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (24:43):

… throughout my whole career.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:45):

Yeah. Well, it’s this concept, and you and I have talked about this, of being seen, and someone seeing you like that whole notion that my husband says, “You’re on the grid.” Like at some point, you’re like, “Oh, I have a purpose.”

Regina Lawson (24:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

And it sounds like he really spoke in to that.

Regina Lawson (25:01):

Yes, he believed in me several times a lot more than I believed in myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:06):

Yeah. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (25:07):

And I think that’s what we all have to have-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

Absolutely. Like it’s the magic. Well, I mean, I talked about this all the time, working in the jobs we work in is you just don’t know who might walk through that door. And like you walked through that door that day, and you’re sitting here now, and have been Chief here for a few years.

Regina Lawson (25:24):

A long time.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:26):

I would love to transition. I mean, one, I will just name that you’re a woman. We see more of that, but we don’t see a lot of that. And would love to just hear what you’ve learned from this work. I mean… and it doesn’t have to be gendered. It could be anything you’ve learned. I think it’s important to name when you’re a pioneer and doing work that others haven’t done. That’s really important to acknowledge and to honor that. And I’m sure that came with, um, some stories. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (25:53):

Thank you for asking about that. And, uh, no, in the early days, there were very few women.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (25:58):

I remember this one experience being at International Campus Law Enforcement Association-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:04):

… Annual Conference, and we started a women’s member luncheon.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:10):

The breakout sessions had ended. And we were all kind of gravitating into the place where we were going to have lunch.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:16):

One of our male colleagues was just sitting there chatting, and I think he thought we were all just going to have lunch, and all of a sudden, he looks around, he said, “Am I supposed to be here?”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

I didn’t get the memo.

Regina Lawson (26:26):

Yeah. So, we jokingly said, “Ah, now you know how it feels to be in that room where you’re the only one, you know.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:31):

And we had a great conversation around it.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:35):

But he did eventually realize it was that women’s member luncheon.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:37):

That he was not invited.

Regina Lawson (26:38):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

But that is interesting, when-

Regina Lawson (26:41):

Yeah. And we just celebrated our 25th year of the women’s… I might be off by one, we had some COVID gaps in there.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:50):

But… so for over 25 years, the women’s member is kind of moved around from dinner to lunch, from thing to thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:55):

And it’s just so rewarding now to not only see the increased number-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (27:02):

… but the diversity of the women that we have.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:03):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (27:04):

And not just visible diversity-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (27:07):

… just career paths, and connections, and how they got there.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:12):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (27:12):

Where they’ve been.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:13):

Interesting.

Regina Lawson (27:14):

It’s just very, very rich, rich experienced.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:17):

I imagine. I’ve learned a lot thanks to you about law enforcement, but you have city, county-

Regina Lawson (27:22):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:22):

… state, federal, campus, law enforcement isn’t just police. So, there’s lots of emergency management, fire.

Regina Lawson (27:30):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:30):

Like lots of different avenues. I, I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of those conversations. So, it goes without saying that this work is really hard.

Regina Lawson (27:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

What you do is really hard, and over the last decade, particularly, has been even more challenging. So, you know, what are some of those challenges you’ve experienced? And I’m going to ask a two-parter, but I can ask it again, if you forget. But just some of the challenges you’ve experienced? And then, how do the global concerns about law enforcement affect how you lead?

Regina Lawson (27:59):

You know, the hardest thing I think you and I would both agree that you ever have to do in this work is to talk to a parent who’s lost a child.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:08):

Whether you actually have that conversation or not. But if your campus loses someone-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:13):

… I think we all know that as humans, that’s just hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

It’s devastating.

Regina Lawson (28:18):

Family-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:19):

Right.

Regina Lawson (28:19):

… it’s just hard for the campus, it’s hard-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:22):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:22):

… for the greater community. It’s just really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:25):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (28:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:26):

And it’s so counter to what’s expected when a young person dies.

Regina Lawson (28:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:32):

I mean, any loss of life is hard. But I think it’s something especially devastating about a young life. And then, a community that is surrounded by that life.

Regina Lawson (28:41):

Couldn’t, couldn’t agree with you more.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:42):

Yeah. So, how do you just sit with that and navigate that knowing the heaviness? That’s one example, the heaviness that you experience on any given day.

Regina Lawson (28:53):

I really think it’s… you’ve got to have your network.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:57):

And you’ve got to have people that you lean on.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:00):

And then, I think the other thing is always just being in the continuous improvement.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:06):

How do we take what happened and how we learn from it?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:10):

And how do we move forward? And, and how do we, as an individual, as a team, as a department, as an institution, as a profession-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:20):

Mm-hmm. Right.

Regina Lawson (29:20):

… how do we learn from whatever tragedy has occurred?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:23):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:24):

And that’s part of where I think being in law enforcement today, it’s hard. It’s still a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:32):

I stand by it. I’ll be the first to say problem policing is a problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:35):

I don’t wanna be a part of it.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (29:37):

I don’t want our team to be a part of it. I want to do everything that I can and that we can as a department to create a different experience for our campus community.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (29:47):

And if students come to us with bad experiences, or they have bad experiences here or they have experiences off campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:55):

… or traveling anywhere else, we want to be a place that you can come and seek assistance-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:01):

… seek resources, seek guidance or just seek understanding about-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:05):

… why whatever happened happened. And the other thing I’ll say is if we screw up, we want to own it. And that’s probably not the best language, but we’re going to be responsible.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:15):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:15):

And we’re going to be accountable. And I think… and this is true in general, a lot of times, people’s impressions are through personal experiences.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:25):

And then, sometimes they’re through the personal experiences of others.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:28):

Of someone else. Sure.

Regina Lawson (30:30):

So, we want to make sure that we’re creating that engagement-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:34):

… and that environment that we will… our students in our campus community, students, faculty, staff, visitors-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Right.

Regina Lawson (30:41):

… to have that positive experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:43):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:43):

… where we understand safety means different things to different parts of our community.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:48):

Right.

Regina Lawson (30:49):

And we want to create a safe environment for everyone. And like you said, it’s important to be seen-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:55):

… and to have that sense of belonging.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:56):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:56):

And if there’s a concern, or a question or an incident, I want to be able to communicate about it-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:02):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (31:03):

… and use it as a learning opportunity.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:05):

Yeah. I’ve seen that firsthand. I mean, we engage in work that people will never see publicly necessarily, but just being able to be a thought partner. And I know some early days that we had together when I first started, I mean, we had a series of weather-related events-

Regina Lawson (31:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:21):

… environmental and other challenges. And something I learned from you and your team is this importance of after-action exercises, meaning what worked, what didn’t work, you do that routinely, probably weekly. It could be something that’s not even a public event that you learned from. And I just want to say that I really appreciate that because we will all mess up. That’s human nature.

(31:43):

And when you’re dealing with crisis, of course, you know, you’re making split-second decisions, so acknowledging that. The humility, I guess, is what I see in you, and how you work, and really appreciate that. I think we really have missed the boat when we know everything. You know, we talked a lot about leaning into curiosity, and see that in you and your team. And I think what the community doesn’t always know, and I appreciate that you said it is tell us when-

Regina Lawson (32:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:09):

… something didn’t go right, tell us directly, because you’re the person and your team can address that in a moment, or as soon as you learn about it. And so, can you talk a little bit about the Police Advisory Board, and how that came about, and some of the progress that you’ve made there?

Regina Lawson (32:26):

Yeah. So, fortunately, we’ve had a Police Advisory Board for over 15 years now.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:30):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:31):

And we actually had trouble finding models when we began.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:35):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:36):

Because a lot of campuses did not have them, and ones that a lot of municipalities had were in larger kind of urban environments.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (32:45):

And it was a lot of focus around corruption and just the other things-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:51):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:51):

… that really didn’t… it wasn’t right size for a campus environment.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:55):

And, you know, one of those points of pride is we’ve now had a lot of institutions reach out to us and ask, “How did we get started? How-“

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

Right.

Regina Lawson (33:02):

What was important and to that point, and the biggest point of pride for me with our Police Advisory Board is the investment that people make.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:11):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:12):

And how they are eager to learn more and time is a commodity-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:17):

-In a campus environment, but how they give their time. And through that increased awareness, learning and understanding can help not only coach us and advise us, but also many times advocate because they have the facts and the information.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:33):

Right.

Regina Lawson (33:34):

That’s been hugely helpful and-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:36):

And having people who are not a part of-

Regina Lawson (33:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

… your day-to-day who can shed light and give perspective and ask questions. And-

Regina Lawson (33:44):

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I’ll give, uh, a great example, um, you know, after a tragic officer involved shooting at Georgia Tech many years ago, Police Advisory Board met and I was kind of briefing them on what we know about this incident at this time..

Shea Kidd Brown (33:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:57):

And we didn’t have Tasers at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:00):

And that having that non-lethal use of force-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:03):

… could have prevented that officer from having to resort to using their firearm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:08):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (34:08):

So, we use that as an opportunity to and that was… I mean, the Police Advisory Board took that and really helped advocate for something that had previously had a lot of stigma around.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:19):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:20):

You know, just using the word Taser in a conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:23):

… had a lot of stigma. But through that kind of mutual understanding, everybody learned to realize-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:28):

… this is a tool-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:29):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:29):

… that could prevent excessive use of force.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:32):

Right. And the way that you deploy that is I think sometimes the misconception is that’s the default. There are lots of tactics and tools, but then when that’s not working, then you have another level that’s non-lethal that you can apply. And that’s to me the community engaged in when you said problem policing as a problem that you’ve been very proactive about. Is that fair to say?

Regina Lawson (34:54):

I certainly hope so.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:55):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (34:55):

I mean, that’s our goal.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:57):

And I think creating the culture of care doesn’t happen by accident. It’s very intentional. And I think that we really benefit from having so many people on our team that have had or currently have, or will be having-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:14):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (35:15):

… students in college themselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:16):

Yeah. Such as-

Regina Lawson (35:17):

So, we really look at all of the students as kind of an extension of our family.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (35:22):

We all take it very personal if something happens to somebody.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:25):

Yes, yes.

Regina Lawson (35:26):

We don’t want that to happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:30):

Yeah. And it’s personal. Even if it’s another campus, we’ve seen that recently, some things in close proximity. And then, I’ve seen you just what you’ve done by bringing the area chiefs together. Do you want to talk about area chiefs at all, and what happens there?

Regina Lawson (35:42):

Yeah. So, it’s a monthly meeting and all the Winston-Salem Police Department, Forsyth County Sheriff’s Department, our District Attorney’s Office, Alcohol Law Enforcement, Fire Department, Emergency Management, Emergency Medical Services, and the local campuses all meet monthly. And that may not sound like a big deal, but getting-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:01):

That’s a really big deal.

Regina Lawson (36:02):

… getting all these people together is, is challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:05):

Yeah. I’ve been to those meeting, it’s a big group. And that’s amazing.

Regina Lawson (36:08):

And it’s really believe that nearing that 20-year history of meeting.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:12):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:13):

And we meet once a month, uh, for breakfast. We’ve learned if we don’t meet first thing in the morning, and we wait until lunch-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

Yeah. The day is gone.

Regina Lawson (36:21):

… people will get derailed. Yeah. So, it has become quite the collaboration. It’s a time management issue.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:26):

We… as our departments are moving through event planning to talk about complex investigations that are impacting other campuses-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:33):

… our city in general, you know, share information on new technology, and the partnerships, and the fellowships and being able to call each other by our first names.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:44):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (36:44):

And just knowing that all our departments are large, small, we’re nuanced, but I say we’re codependent.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:52):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (36:52):

Because none of us can do this work alone.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:55):

That’s right.

Regina Lawson (36:55):

And, you know, local agencies appreciate having the campus police departments because look at all those calls for service we take off of their plate.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Right.

Regina Lawson (37:02):

And then, look at all the intimacy that we get to have with our campus community-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (37:07):

… by being a part of that community and not kind of coming in from the outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:12):

Right.

Regina Lawson (37:12):

Like the police department or the sheriff’s department.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:14):

Without any context and that context is really key, especially the more complexities that exist between technology and that interfacing, and just that our college students or students and you protect the whole campus community. But having that context is really critical when you’re partnering and something’s happening, having both involved. And I would say I’ve seen the reciprocal of something going on in the city.

(37:38):

And our team has been there in large athletic events and things like that, where you see it all happening. And even a living past president that I got to watch everything from the local to the federal level unfold, and all the things that our campus never sees. But that’s what we want, is that you can feel protected and safe because things are working as they need to work. And so, we don’t always see that background.

Regina Lawson (38:00):

And I appreciate our emergency manager, Chauncey Bowers. She always says-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:04):

… “You want to be bored in the EOC.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Regina Lawson (38:07):

And the EOC is our emergency operations center.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:09):

So, that’s kind of the brain-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (38:11):

… of a big event, you know, kind of management or the response to the-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:16):

Right.

Regina Lawson (38:16):

… critical incident would be in the emergency operations center.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:19):

Yeah. There’s so much, so many complexities. So, your profession is one of those that people have opinions about because of the public nature, but don’t always understand. What do you want people to know that they may not know about you or about the work that they would not otherwise know?

Regina Lawson (38:36):

Like I said, despite the challenges that law enforcement has had for a number of years, it’s still a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:45):

And there are courageous men and women that suit up every day and go in harm’s way-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:52):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:52):

… to protect the rights of citizens.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:56):

And I think it’s important to just kind of pause and think about that and think about that, we, we lose officers.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:04):

And it is as challenging as it can be at times.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:08):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:09):

We’ve got to have law and order.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (39:12):

And then, that is not something that everybody is willing to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:16):

It’s beginning to get increasingly challenging to recruit people that want… not just police but fire, EMS-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:24):

Sure.

Regina Lawson (39:24):

… you know, all the first responders are, are challenged, but we always got to be there now.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (39:31):

Just call.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

And I appreciate that wholeheartedly. What gives you hope?

Regina Lawson (39:35):

You know, you have to keep hope. And we were talking about continuous improvement. You always learn best from what you get wrong.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:42):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:42):

You don’t learn a lot from what you get right.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:45):

That’s so true.

Regina Lawson (39:47):

And so, I think in the recent decade, law enforcement has learned a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:51):

And as a result, are moving forward differently. Every profession changes with time.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:57):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:58):

Law enforcement is no different. And think that what we’d love to do is really not have a need for us. But sadly, that’s not the case. And I do remain committed to the fact that it is a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:13):

I remain committed to the fact that there will always be people willing to protect and serve.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:18):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:18):

And that there’s still a future in policing for those who are called to it.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:22):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (40:22):

Because it is somewhat of a calling, you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:25):

It really is.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:26):

Yeah. I believe that. Well, there’s a lot that gives me hope. And I’m grateful to get to work with you every day, and learn from you, and to lead with you. And I appreciate you spending some time with me.

Regina Lawson (40:37):

Well, thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (40:38):

This has been a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:39):

Yeah. See, it wasn’t nearly as bad as you thought it would be. (laughs) So, thank you. Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Chief Lawson. From small moments that make a big difference in our career ambitions to hard work and sustainability, I am filled with life lessons. We all have perceptions of what a Chief of Police might be like, and I hope you feel a little more connected to the realities of the human side.

(41:07):

As I often say, we all have a story. I encourage you to think about what Chief Lawson shared and how you might apply that to your life. Thank you for listening. And I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. Truly, you have something to contribute to the world. I kid you not. Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (41:34):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life Team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who serves as the president of our university. Until then, I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 6: Jackson Buttler

Episode 5: Heidi Robinson

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Jackson Buttler, an important member of the student body who serves as the President of Student Government. You’ll hear about his upbringing, what his time at Wake Forest has been like, the new initiatives Student Government has in mind and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

(00:45):

Jackson Buttler (01:37):

Hi Dr. Shea. Thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:39):

I’m so glad that you’re here and that you agreed to join not even knowing what I’m gonna ask you.

Jackson Buttler (01:45):

Oh, I’m honored to be here.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

Yes.

Jackson Buttler (01:47):

So thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

Absolutely. And we talk a lot regularly about University things-

Jackson Buttler (01:51):

Yes, ma’am, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (01:52):

… for lack of a better word, but today is really just about a conversation about you, and so I’m really excited about this dedicated time-

Jackson Buttler (02:00):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:00):

… that we have to dig a little deeper.

Jackson Buttler (02:04):

Me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:04):

Yeah. So you ready to get started?

Jackson Buttler (02:05):

I’m ready.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Jackson Buttler (02:22):

Yeah. Funny enough, that’s actually a little bit of a complicated question. So usually when people ask me that question, I claim Raleigh as my home-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:29):

… because that’s where I graduated from high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:31):

That’s where my family lives now. But I actually grew up in Chicago. I lived in Chicago for about 14, 15 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:36):

I don’t think I knew that.

Jackson Buttler (02:37):

Yeah. So I was born in Wrigleyville, grew up there, moved to the western suburbs, small suburb called Hinsdale. I lived there for about 14, 15 ish years.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (02:45):

I moved to Raleigh two months into my freshman year of high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:48):

Really?

Jackson Buttler (02:48):

So I had two first days of freshman year, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Oh.

Jackson Buttler (02:53):

So I got a little perseverance from that for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:55):

Yeah. How was that?

Jackson Buttler (02:56):

Shea Kidd Brown (03:06):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (03:06):

I was in my adult mode. It was awesome. And then, yeah-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Adult as a 14-year-old?

Jackson Buttler (03:10):

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:10):

Yeah, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (03:11):

My parents decided to let me know, uh, (laughs), two months in that we were moving to down south and I did not-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

That’s so hard.

Jackson Buttler (03:17):

… know really what to expect. But I’m very glad I did. I mean it was definitely some culture shock moving-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (03:22):

… down here. Especially during 2016. It was right in the middle of the election, two months in and then I was in a swing state. So, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (03:28):

… my political self was all over that.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

What differences did you see from Chicago versus here?

Jackson Buttler (03:35):

Yeah, I mean I would say culturally it’s different. Don’t think I really knew what to expect.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:41):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (03:42):

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:05):

“Like, I’m going back up North.” But I’m very glad I did end up staying here we are now-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (04:10):

… four years later, or however many years later. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

Yeah. So what was it about the South that maybe changed your mind?

Jackson Buttler (04:16):

I’d fallen in love with the South I think for a couple of reasons. Like I said, I am a political being at heart.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

Yeah, you got-

Jackson Buttler (04:21):

That’s definitely where my, (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:23):

Yeah. I wanna hear more.

Jackson Buttler (04:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:24):

So has that always been in your heart? Can you remember, like, how early it was that you were interested in politics?

Jackson Buttler (04:29):

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

In middle school?

Jackson Buttler (04:38):

… in middle school. I don’t know what is wrong with me. I don’t know why-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Nothing’s wrong with you, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (04:41):

No, I think it’s too funny. So anyway, and I still watch it every weekend. Like, that’s just my thing, and I don’t know what it is. Regardless, yeah, so being in the state capitol in Raleigh-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:49):

… I had all these opportunities to be super involved in politics.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (04:52):

Shea Kidd Brown (05:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:03):

… at the governor’s office for a couple weeks, which I really, really enjoyed. And I think it’s just the South has now really found itself into my heart.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:12):

And I don’t ever see myself leaving, you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

So do you think it was the relationships that you made?

Jackson Buttler (05:17):

I think so.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:17):

And being able to-

Jackson Buttler (05:19):

I would say, yeah. I mean I think relationships, I think southern culture’s totally grown on me. Weather’s not too bad, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

It’s not (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (05:26):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:26):

That’s why, I’m like the opposite of-

Jackson Buttler (05:27):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:28):

… you because I have always said that I always need to live in the South.

Jackson Buttler (05:32):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:32):

I need to see the sun come out. I’m from Hattiesburg, Mississippi.

Jackson Buttler (05:35):

Uh-huh.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:36):

I now live north because I’m in a state called North Carolina.

Jackson Buttler (05:38):

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

So.

Jackson Buttler (05:39):

That’s so funny. But yeah, I would say it’s just got something about it, North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (05:44):

Got a special place in my heart now being here eight years, which is crazy to say.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (05:47):

But um, we’ll see what happens.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

Yeah. Well, I love that. So growing up, did you have siblings or you’re only child?

Jackson Buttler (05:53):

Yes, I have a younger sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (05:54):

She’s at a fellow ACC school. She’s a Clemson sophomore.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (05:57):

And so all four of my family members, including me, my sister, me, my mom and dad, all big football school people-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:04):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (06:04):

… which is just really funny. My dad went to Notre Dame, my mom went to Michigan, my sister goes to Clemson and here I am at Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

I’m just imagining middle school Jackson watching Meet the Press.

Jackson Buttler (06:13):

Oh, it’s so funny.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:13):

That is really funny. So.

Jackson Buttler (06:14):

it’s a sight to see, for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

So at some point, so you’re 14, moved, had a formative experience and we didn’t talk about how Wake Forest-

Jackson Buttler (06:23):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:23):

… kind of, got in the mix.

Jackson Buttler (06:25):

Shea Kidd Brown (06:37):

I can’t believe that (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (06:40):

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

Huh.

Jackson Buttler (06:49):

… I did not like it. I was like, “Mom, I’m not buying the t-shirt. Like, it’s not happening.” My mom was like, “No, you’re going here. Like, I know you will end up here. Like I have-“

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

She already-

Jackson Buttler (06:55):

“… zero…”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

She knew it.

Jackson Buttler (06:56):

Yeah. And I was like, “Well you’re, like, full of it. Like, there’s no way I’m ending up here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:00):

Like, “I am going back up north. I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

So you were still set on that at that point.

Jackson Buttler (07:05):

So set on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (07:06):

And didn’t buy the t-shirt, nothing, like, whatever. So flash forward to a year from then, I’m getting these emails for the summer immersion program.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

So wait, you were, four what… 10th grade? Um, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (07:17):

I toured in sophomore year, 10th grade. It was, like, an hour and a half from Raleigh. So it was a super easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:22):

Shea Kidd Brown (07:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (07:32):

… a class of, like, 20 kids. I was like, “Okay, I’m sold. Like, I’m gonna go.” Ding.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Ding.

Jackson Buttler (07:36):

So I went, loved it, really, really enjoyed it. Lived in South. They did a good job. They sold me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (07:40):

They did what they were supposed to do. They-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Nice.

Jackson Buttler (07:42):

… sold me. Got home literally two weeks later applied E.D., got in a month later-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Are you serious?

Jackson Buttler (07:46):

… was done.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

And changed that fast?

Jackson Buttler (07:48):

Done. Wake Forest, I fell in love with it. Lived here for a week. Did the program, loved my classes, ate at the pit. Like, it was great. Loved it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:55):

So what changed from the tour to-

Jackson Buttler (07:57):

You know what, when I was touring colleges, I don’t think I was thinking about the right things. Every college I toured, I knew I was gonna get a good education, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:03):

But when I came to Wake Forest and I said, “Look at how small these classrooms are.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (08:06):

Like, “What? There’s 20 seats in here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:07):

“Look at who they brought in for these high school students. I can’t even imagine who they’re gonna bring in if I’m a full-time student here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (08:13):

Shea Kidd Brown (08:33):

That’s amazing.

Jackson Buttler (08:34):

… everyone you walk by seems like you have some, sort of, a connection to, and those are-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:38):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (08:38):

… some of the special people that I have a weird connection with. So.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Yeah. That’s really good. And I had no idea it sparked from-

Jackson Buttler (08:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

… a summer immersion program. I’ve had a chance to participate in some of those.

Jackson Buttler (08:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:49):

And always wonder about the future Wake Foresters-

Jackson Buttler (08:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

… that might be in the crowd. And so I give the soft hard sell, (laughs)-

Jackson Buttler (08:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

… about just how special it is, and-

Jackson Buttler (08:56):

They sold me.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

So thinking about Wake, what are some of the things that have surprised you since you have been here? Because you started-

Jackson Buttler (09:07):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

… in the height of the pandemic-

Jackson Buttler (09:07):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

… as well. So your first year, we were physically on-

Jackson Buttler (09:09):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

… campus but virtual.

Jackson Buttler (09:10):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:10):

So tell me a little bit about that, ’cause that was before I got here.

Jackson Buttler (09:13):

Right. So I was indeed a COVID freshman. I also-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Is that what you call yourself? (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (09:18):

We do call ourselves COVID Freshman. I was a 2020 grad too, so maybe grad isn’t the right word ’cause I didn’t get a graduation, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (09:21):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:22):

So very excited for my upcoming graduation-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:24):

Absolutely.

Jackson Buttler (09:25):

Shea Kidd Brown (09:38):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (09:38):

… which was rare because I did E.D. So I was done. None of my friends knew where they were going. Like, it was very uncertain. And so at least I didn’t have that weighing on me.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:45):

Shea Kidd Brown (09:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (09:55):

“Am I going to come out and tell everyone that I’m gay, like, one month into college?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (10:02):

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (10:19):

And so it was really hard to get a test.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:20):

Saliva testing-

Jackson Buttler (10:21):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

… that’s what that was called.

Jackson Buttler (10:22):

(10:35):

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Oh, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (10:53):

So that was an emotional day. And my mom’s in healthcare so she’s like, “We’re going to…” She works at Duke. She’s like, “We’re gonna Duke, we’re going to get you a real test.”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:59):

Hmm.

Jackson Buttler (10:59):

Of course, it was a false positive. So just like the most-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Oh, wow.

Jackson Buttler (11:01):

… emotional day ever for literally no reason. But I think that’s, like, the most hilarious coming out story ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:06):

Yeah, it is.

Jackson Buttler (11:06):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:07):

… it’s very memorable.

Jackson Buttler (11:07):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:08):

So you said something happened and you just really wanted to come to college-

Jackson Buttler (11:11):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

… to be your authentic self. So what was that something?

Jackson Buttler (11:14):

Shea Kidd Brown (11:34):

Yeah, ho was that?

Jackson Buttler (11:34):

… don’t wanna leave that out.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:35):

I imagine you were nervous.

Jackson Buttler (11:37):

I was so nervous.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:38):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (11:38):

So nervous. And, and I have the most fantastic parents and family like ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (11:42):

So anyway, my dad came in, like, full PPE like, ’cause they, they didn’t have the rapid tests, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (11:46):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (11:46):

So, like, literally told my mom, like, in the car-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

It was a different time, mm-hmm, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (11:49):

Shea Kidd Brown (12:03):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:03):

… at the time we still thought I had it ’cause the test-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (12:05):

… was still being processed or whatever. There’s so much transition, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (12:07):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (12:08):

So like I just come out to my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (12:09):

I was finally, like, in a place where I was like, “Okay, like, I’m gonna be a more authentic self.” And that was so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (12:13):

… hard for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:14):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:14):

I thought once I told my parents, that would be good. Like, we did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:17):

That would be the hardest part.

Jackson Buttler (12:18):

Shea Kidd Brown (12:33):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:33):

Shea Kidd Brown (12:44):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (12:44):

“… like, if you don’t like me for who I am, then, like, so be it.” And I have not had one negative issue, mind you. So that’s been great.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:50):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:50):

Freshman year was a time of lots of growth for me-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (12:53):

… not to mention, like, meeting people that are gonna be lifelong friends forever. And my first foray into student government and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:00):

Mmh, you jump right in, you were on the Covid committee.

Jackson Buttler (13:01):

I did, I was.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (13:03):

So yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but that was, yeah, really formative and great experience for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (13:08):

And it still is to this day. I’ve loved, loved, loved my classes, and my academics here at Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (13:14):

But nothing compares to what I’ve learned being in the positions that I’ve been so lucky to be in, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:19):

It sounds like you’ve learned a lot about yourself.

Jackson Buttler (13:20):

… I’ve learned so much about myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:22):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (13:22):

And I just… I’m so thankful every day to be able to do what I enjoy doing so much. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:27):

Yeah. Well, that’s the beauty of college. I mean, I appreciate you sharing such a significant part of your story, and college is this unique place where, to some degree, you’re starting fresh.

Jackson Buttler (13:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:38):

You know, there may be people you knew or people you met at the summer immersion-

Jackson Buttler (13:43):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:43):

… but to be able to authentically be yourself-

Jackson Buttler (13:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

… unapologetically be yourself. I think many of us are navigating that-

Jackson Buttler (13:50):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:51):

… or have navigated it.

Jackson Buttler (13:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:52):

I know that I did a few years ago as an undergraduate, (laughs), student.

Jackson Buttler (13:55):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:55):

And I think that message that you said, you know, for first years who are thinking about that. It’s really important.

Jackson Buttler (13:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

I did wanna ask about similar to what I asked you about your parents-

Jackson Buttler (14:04):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

… while you were here, were there specific things that you felt around the university that you didn’t feel that helped you to be courageous in living out who you are?

Jackson Buttler (14:13):

Shea Kidd Brown (14:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (14:28):

And so I was so lucky because I found my people elsewhere, and absolutely, like, no hate to people who go that route. That was just not for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Yeah. Well, and finding your people is so crucial.

Jackson Buttler (14:37):

Oh, 100%. And so I found my people elsewhere, and I found my people in places that I did not think I would.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Mmh, like where?

Jackson Buttler (14:44):

Um, like Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:45):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (14:46):

Or, like, the business fraternity. I’m an Alpha Kappa Psi.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:49):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (14:49):

Did not think I would be lucky enough to get into that fraternity, nor I didn’t think I was a big business person ’cause I, I’m not, but it ended up being a really good thing for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:56):

Good.

Jackson Buttler (14:57):

Shea Kidd Brown (15:10):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (15:10):

But the-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:11):

And I just wanna pause for a second, ’cause you said, “Mind you, I’m Student Body President, and I still have those feelings.”

Jackson Buttler (15:16):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:16):

I mean, I think that’s important for people to hear.

Jackson Buttler (15:18):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:19):

‘Cause they probably assume, like, you walk into a room, and you’re fully confident.

Jackson Buttler (15:23):

Oh yeah, yeah. Imposter syndrome is very much a thing, and definitely something that I think all of us struggle with. Uh, me, especially.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (15:30):

And I didn’t think I would be able to pull off me winning that election. And mind you, it was really funny too, because I won in a runoff by one vote.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:39):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (15:39):

And so for Senator, like, freshman year, first year did not think I would win, I did, and I was shocked.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (15:47):

And so I was like, “Okay, like, this is clearly for me. I love this.” And so I threw my all into it and it gave back.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (15:54):

So, I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

So what are some of the highlights that you’ve experienced? ‘Cause you have the benefit of, you’re not quite finished quite-

Jackson Buttler (16:00):

Not quite.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

… you got some work to do.

Jackson Buttler (16:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

But you’ve got that rear view a little bit.

Jackson Buttler (16:02):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:02):

So what are some of those things that come to mind?

Jackson Buttler (16:04):

Shea Kidd Brown (16:17):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:18):

… and showed me that because I am certainly was not, and I’m not now, and that I made many a mistake along the way.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:24):

That’s where learning happens.

Jackson Buttler (16:25):

Clearly. And… So I shot my shot when I ran and I won. And so then I really wanted to keep growing in the organization.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:30):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:31):

So I shot my shot again and I applied to be, um, like a cabinet member, a co-chair. And I didn’t get it. This was freshman year, so first year.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:36):

Oh, okay.

Jackson Buttler (16:37):

Shea Kidd Brown (16:51):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (16:52):

“… and I wanna let you grow.” And obviously, COVID was still such a huge issue.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (16:56):

And so she said, you know, “All of our committees are so constantly working on COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID, that they can’t do what they’re supposed to be doing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

What they’re supposed to be doing, like, we were in higher education too.

Jackson Buttler (17:06):

Yeah, seriously.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:06):

I mean, we had to create separate committees-

Jackson Buttler (17:08):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

… because we wanted to still be able to do our jobs. I was at a different university at that time, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (17:13):

Yeah. And so she said me, along with someone, you know, very well, Cate Pitterly-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:17):

… were asked to be the COVID liaisons, what they called us-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (17:21):

Shea Kidd Brown (17:32):

What d’you learn?

Jackson Buttler (17:33):

I learned a lot about leading by example.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (17:36):

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:50):

… but my position was to be the student that’s in charge of handling all the concerns for COVID.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (17:56):

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:05):

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Yeah, but it was a hard time-

Jackson Buttler (18:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

… I mean, for everybody.

Jackson Buttler (18:15):

And I learned how to… something that, you know, I have to do even now, is go into a meeting with administrators or leaders and say, “Hey, this is what’s going on…”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:23):

“… and this is where you got it wrong, or this is where you could be doing things better.” And I think I learned a lot from that. I’m still, kind of, trying to perfect those skills.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:31):

And there’s always room for improvement, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

Yeah, it’s an important skill. Being able to provide a counter narrative-

Jackson Buttler (18:37):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:38):

… or to disagree or-

Jackson Buttler (18:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

… you know, those skills are really important to be able to learn that your first year.

Jackson Buttler (18:43):

Yeah, it was really, really formative-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:44):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:45):

…and I enjoyed it a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:47):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:47):

And so, you know, I got my taste, I enjoyed it.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (18:49):

And so I said, “You know what, like, let’s keep going.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:51):

You enjoyed it in the worst of times.

Jackson Buttler (18:52):

If I could enjoy it in the worst of times-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:53):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (18:54):

… then, I guess, that bodes well for my future in, in Student Government.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:56):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (18:57):

So, you know, I worked my way up in the organization. I was Campus Life Co-Chair, which was great because that was when you first got here.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:01):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:02):

And so I got to work with you since your very first weeks here, which I’ve loved.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:07):

Me too.

Jackson Buttler (19:07):

Thanks.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:07):

Shea Kidd Brown (19:15):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:15):

Shea Kidd Brown (19:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:29):

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:42):

And going back to the imposter syndrome thing, I felt really guilty for a long time because I felt like I didn’t have the right to be doing that work.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:49):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (19:49):

I felt like I should leave it to people who have had those experiences, and I felt like I should let someone else do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (19:58):

Shea Kidd Brown (20:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (20:12):

“… and the fact that you wanna put yourself in that position and do this difficult work should not be something you feel guilty about.”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:18):

Yeah, and being an advocate sometimes is, or an ally, is your voice may be louder if it’s unexpected.

Jackson Buttler (20:24):

Yeah, yeah, right. And so I learned a lot from that experience, so much from that experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:26):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (20:27):

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Yeah, we very much appreciate that.

Jackson Buttler (20:57):

Yeah, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

It was great to partner with you.

Jackson Buttler (20:58):

Shea Kidd Brown (21:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (21:08):

… and ran for President. Here we are. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:10):

Jackson Buttler (21:24):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

… getting the climate survey off the ground.

Jackson Buttler (21:27):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

And even getting it implemented and sharing the findings.

Jackson Buttler (21:30):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:30):

And that was a real gift-

Jackson Buttler (21:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:31):

… to be able to have students to talk to about what’s working, what’s not working, what’s the message? How do we continue this work?

Jackson Buttler (21:37):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:38):

And thanks to your good work, we also have a permanent group of students-

Jackson Buttler (21:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:42):

… who are committed and working with Student Government, and the Office of Wellbeing-

Jackson Buttler (21:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:46):

… as we think about that. So senior year, President. So I wanted to do questions-

Jackson Buttler (21:51):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:51):

… two parter-

Jackson Buttler (21:52):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:52):

… what are you excited about? And then what are the things that make you concerned or worried?

Jackson Buttler (21:56):

Yeah, this is something that I have been working towards for a really long time, and it feels really rewarding to be able to do the job of people that I idolized freshman year.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:08):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (22:09):

And I, like you, am such a relational person. I’m such a communicator.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:13):

I love people. I love talking. I love speaking. And that has been such a gift. I have so enjoyed getting the chance to get up on a podium and talk to people.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:24):

And to make people feel like their voices are heard.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:28):

And, you know, a kind of, a recurring theme that we’ve talked about is, like, I really like to see a problem and find a solution.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:35):

Shea Kidd Brown (22:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:45):

And I think one of my favorite parts, and it’s not something I really thought would be my favorite part, is getting the chance to mentor younger students.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (22:52):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

And now what Pilar-

Jackson Buttler (22:52):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

… and Ally were to you, you can be for other people.

Jackson Buttler (22:57):

And that just feels like such a gift.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:00):

Shea Kidd Brown (23:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:10):

And they would always just say, “Pay it forward.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:12):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (23:12):

Like, I wanna do this for you so that you will do this for the next person.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:16):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:17):

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

That’s great.

Jackson Buttler (23:27):

And they are incredible people that have put a lot into me, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:31):

And every time they’ll pay for my coffee and I’ll be like, “Please, like, I… You don’t have to pay for my coffee. You’re on a government salary, like…”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (23:38):

And they’ll be like, “No, just when you’re in my position, just do the same thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:41):

Do it for somebody else.

Jackson Buttler (23:42):

And so that’s been so rewarding, and I’ve really, really enjoyed being able to do that. And I’m excited for our, our first years looking forward to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (23:50):

But in terms of some of the challenges, you know, like I said earlier, this is a very responsive job. I don’t have to tell you that.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:58):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (23:59):

Um, you know, something comes up and you have to solve it. And I’m a person that really enjoys a good challenge.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:03):

Shea Kidd Brown (24:19):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:19):

… to want to be involved in what we’re doing? And then tied into that is getting the buy in.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:23):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (24:23):

So put on these events, we’ll, we’ll put on all this work, and then no one will show up. And I don’t blame you. We’re busy people. I get it. Lots going on on campus, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (24:30):

On campus, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (24:31):

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Mmh.

Jackson Buttler (24:49):

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (25:03):

… that organized so well. And then I was like, “Okay, so now we have the internal stuff handled and I can help see that to fruition, like, on one side.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:11):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (25:11):

Shea Kidd Brown (25:24):

Yeah, and COVID is a big part-

Jackson Buttler (25:25):

Oh, for-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:25):

… I mean, when you just think about how you “do college,” if you could see me, I’m air quoting-

Jackson Buttler (25:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:31):

… and so reengaging the student body around these issues is important.

Jackson Buttler (25:33):

Right. So I think those are the main two. And, obviously, policy wise, I could be here for, you know, all night if you wanna talk about that, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (25:41):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (25:42):

But I think those are obviously very, very important aspects of the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (25:46):

Shea Kidd Brown (26:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:08):

Shea Kidd Brown (26:18):

Mmh, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:18):

… at the end of the day. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:20):

Yeah, so what are y’all thinking about in terms of that communication strategy?

Jackson Buttler (26:23):

Yeah, this is… very excited about this. You asked a great question.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (26:26):

Shea Kidd Brown (26:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (26:56):

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (27:10):

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (27:21):

Shea Kidd Brown (27:31):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (27:31):

… and to be vulnerable with me, and to share what they’re going through so that I can go and bring those concerns that they don’t have to.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:36):

Right.

Jackson Buttler (27:37):

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (27:50):

I mean, it’s something that I care so deeply about.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:51):

Yeah. Well, and it’s listening.

Jackson Buttler (27:53):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:54):

I mean, it sounds a lot like what you’re hoping to do is listen-

Jackson Buttler (27:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

… and have smaller groups-

Jackson Buttler (27:58):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:59):

… and organized ways to listen. Um, you know, as you’re talking and reflecting back a lot of what I do, it’s one thing to say from the stage, “Come. Send me an email.” (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (28:07):

Right, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Um, but if I’m interacting with someone up close and I say, “Hey, it’s good to see you again…”

Jackson Buttler (28:13):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:13):

“… let’s pull out our calendars right now.”

Jackson Buttler (28:14):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:15):

“Or let’s…” You know, shoot me an email right now.

Jackson Buttler (28:16):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

That way I can work on it. And very similarly-

Jackson Buttler (28:20):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:20):

… I have become very accessible, and want students to have that, and you and I work great in that way, because students may bring a concern to you that I haven’t heard about yet.

Jackson Buttler (28:30):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:30):

And we have a regular meeting where we can talk about those things.

Jackson Buttler (28:33):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:33):

Jackson Buttler (28:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:43):

“… and I get them out and that’s not really what students are wanting.”

Jackson Buttler (28:45):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:46):

And I think that’s, um, the essence of leadership-

Jackson Buttler (28:48):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:48):

… whether you’re in higher education, or you’re in politics later in your life.

Jackson Buttler (28:52):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:53):

Or if you’re a teacher or a nurse, it’s about listening to people.

Jackson Buttler (28:56):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:56):

And we always have a better solution together than we do apart.

Jackson Buttler (29:02):

Right, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:02):

And that’s not necessarily profound or anything we’ve never said, but I think we forget, like, our egos get, (laughs)-

Jackson Buttler (29:07):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (29:07):

… really engaged in what we wanna do. And so being able to shift and the days that I’m not tuned into what students want, I’ll say, I may text you-

Jackson Buttler (29:18):

Yeah, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:19):

… and you I may talk to other students and say, “Hey, what are you hearing? What do you need?”

Jackson Buttler (29:22):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:22):

Um, so then we can just keep our ear to the ground on what’s most important to students.

Jackson Buttler (29:27):

Yeah, I could not agree more. I think that is truly the most important part of being a leader, is knowing when to not use your voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Mmh. Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (29:36):

And I think that’s something that you have to get better at. Everyone has to get better at.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (29:40):

And I think it’s one thing that I’ve really, really focused on this year-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:42):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (29:43):

… is letting other people do the talking, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:45):

Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (29:45):

As a talker myself, that can be a little difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

And drawing that out in other people.

Jackson Buttler (29:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:48):

I think that’s a thing. Like, you can use your voice, but it’s to ask questions, not to give answers.

Jackson Buttler (29:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:52):

So, we just got real serious, you know?

Jackson Buttler (29:54):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:55):

There’s a lot of complexity-

Jackson Buttler (29:56):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:56):

… as it relates to Student Government. So how do you unwind? What do you do for fun?

Jackson Buttler (30:02):

That’s a, (laughs), that’s a loaded question.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Do you unwind?

Jackson Buttler (30:03):

Yeah, do I, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Do you pause ever, Jackson?

Jackson Buttler (30:07):

Yeah, (laughs). Yeah, it’s okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:07):

I know I’ve told you, “Hey, you could pause.” (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (30:11):

Shea Kidd Brown (30:19):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:20):

And I’m really not good at putting boundaries up.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:22):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:23):

And I’ve had to do that this year. And it’s been, I think, one of the best parts of the job is making me do things that are, are difficult, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (30:30):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:30):

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:40):

“… like, let’s do something fun.” But with that, I mean, I know you talk about this, you work out every morning. I mean, like, so do I.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (30:45):

Like, that is, like, I’m not a morning person though, mind you, I’m a night.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

Yeah, well, I work in early in the morning-

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

… schedule emails and I work out.

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

There you go.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:53):

Yes,. (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (30:53):

I’m a night workout person ’cause I’m crazy, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

(laughs) yes.

Jackson Buttler (30:56):

Working out, journaling, shameless plug for the UCC, have been going there since my freshman year, therapy, so important. And you know, just knowing when to, like, laugh and knowing when to have fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:06):

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:07):

And I think anyone that knows me and my leadership style will know that, like, yes, when it’s time to get serious, we’re gonna get serious, but it’s also, like, not that serious all the time-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:14):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:14):

Shea Kidd Brown (31:34):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (31:35):

“… people that I care about.” And I’ve learned so much from them and they are some of the best people that I’ve met on this campus. And so just-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

So sometimes for you, work is play?

Jackson Buttler (31:44):

Oh yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:45):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (31:45):

Shea Kidd Brown (32:00):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:00):

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (32:16):

Whereas, I get energy from this because it’s something I love so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:19):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:20):

And so I would so much rather be in this position, working super hard, and get tired at the end of the day, then not have the opportunity to do this at all.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:28):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (32:28):

And so I think that’s, kind of, the way that I look at it.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:31):

That’s when you know your passion-

Jackson Buttler (32:32):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:34):

… and your strengths, and your values align.

Jackson Buttler (32:36):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:36):

… is it could be exhausting and it’s also exhilarating.

Jackson Buttler (32:39):

Yes, clearly.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:40):

What’s your favorite spot on campus?

Jackson Buttler (32:42):

The Student Government Office.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:43):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (32:44):

And a lot of people don’t know that we have an office.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:46):

Other than the Student Government Office, I’m gonna let you get in that plug-

Jackson Buttler (32:50):

Okay, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:50):

… but then I want a place outside of that.

Jackson Buttler (32:51):

Okay. I really love, as it is colloquially known, freshman land. I love that road that goes all the way down in front of Collins, in front of South-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:00):

Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:01):

… in front of Angelou, behind Johnson, and Bostwick, and all of those. I think that is the most beautiful, beautiful part of campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:06):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:06):

I always love, like, going on runs there.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:08):

That is a beautiful too.

Jackson Buttler (33:09):

Shea Kidd Brown (33:20):

(laughs)

Jackson Buttler (33:21):

Like, who doesn’t love that view looking out? Nothing beats, like, a Wake Forest commencement on the quad. So beautiful. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:28):

That’s very true, yeah, I’ve taken the same photo at least a hundred times.

Jackson Buttler (33:31):

Shea Kidd Brown (33:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (33:41):

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

And have you always hung out there, even before you were President?

Jackson Buttler (33:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (33:58):

‘Cause Speaker gets an office too.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (33:59):

So last year, I had one and that was great.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:02):

Okay.

Jackson Buttler (34:03):

Shea Kidd Brown (34:18):

Yeah.

Jackson Buttler (34:18):

So I get to be in and out seeing all my friends all the time. And that’s just, you know, it’s a nice perk, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:22):

Yeah. Well, as we start to close our conversation, there’s a whole lot we could talk about.

Jackson Buttler (34:28):

Yeah, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

I am curious. You talked a lot about your formation as a student-

Jackson Buttler (34:31):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:31):

… your identities, what you’ve learned about yourself, what you’ve learned about others. As students are progressing through-

Jackson Buttler (34:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:39):

… so 1st year, 2nd year, 3rd year, 4th year, you can decide who you want to talk to.

Jackson Buttler (34:41):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

But what advice would you give them as you do your final lap, um, here-

Jackson Buttler (34:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:48):

… what are things that you would want students to know?

Jackson Buttler (34:50):

I would say do the hard things, do the things that you are so petrified to put yourself out there and do because it results in the most profound growth.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:02):

Like, running for President was the hardest thing that I think I have ever done. And yet I am so glad I did it.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:10):

Shea Kidd Brown (35:44):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (35:45):

And I have to tell myself those exact same things. Like, just get up and keep going because there are better days ahead.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:52):

Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Buttler (35:52):

Shea Kidd Brown (36:13):

Yeah, do the hard things.

Jackson Buttler (36:13):

Do the hard things.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:15):

I love it. And it sounds like you’ve always had a community of people supporting you as you do the hard things.

Jackson Buttler (36:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:21):

So I always love to end with hope.

Jackson Buttler (36:23):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:24):

You know, where there’s so much to be hopeful about. So what are you hopeful about? It can be as general and as wide of a lens as you want it to be, but-

Jackson Buttler (36:34):

Shea Kidd Brown (37:04):

Mm-hmm.

Jackson Buttler (37:04):

Shea Kidd Brown (37:18):

(laughs).

Jackson Buttler (37:18):

“… I can’t imagine how people must have looked at me when I was a first year.” I think I thought that I was an adult when I was a first year. I thought I did. I thought I knew everything.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:28):

We all did at 18, (laughs).

Jackson Buttler (37:31):

Shea Kidd Brown (37:43):

Yeah, there’s a lot to be hopeful for and I agree. College is this unique place that changes so often-

Jackson Buttler (37:50):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:50):

Jackson Buttler (38:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:01):

So I really appreciate you spending time with me and sharing, and it’s such a gift to work alongside you and, um-

Jackson Buttler (38:08):

You as well, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

… I know that there’s lots that you’re gonna accomplish-

Jackson Buttler (38:11):

Oh, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:12):

… in the company of amazing students. And then hopefully I can be a big support and cheerleader along the way, so-

Jackson Buttler (38:17):

And amazing administrators like yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:20):

Oh, thank you.

Jackson Buttler (38:21):

So, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:21):

Well, thank you for spending time today.

Jackson Buttler (38:22):

Thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

(38:45):

MaryAnna Bailey (39:03):

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Heidi Robinson, a member of the university’s counseling department who also serves in a leadership role in the Office of Personal and Career Development. You’ll hear about the long journey our guest had that brought her to Wake, how she’s utilized her personality in her field of work, what she is like away from the classroom, how her upbringing shaped who she is today and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea and this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:47):

I am so pumped to talk with Heidi Robinson today. Heidi serves as Associate Vice President for Career and Personal Development and is an Associate Professor of Practice in our Department of Education at Wake Forest University. She teaches a very, very popular course series called College to Career and I’ve heard students just rave about it. In addition to that she’s been working at Wake more than a decade and really challenges and supports students to find meaning and purpose in their lives. During her time at Wake, she’s also been nominated for a plethora of awards, but the things I know about are that she completed a leadership development program.

(01:27):

She’s also been designated as an A scholar for her work in service learning. And she also received the North Carolina Counseling Department New Professional Award. Heidi facilitates all kinds of innovative opportunities for student athletes, leading professional development for men’s and women’s basketball, football, women’s golf, and Student Athlete Career Development Night. She is also a fashion enthusiast and you won’t see this on her bio, but I really appreciate her fashion, her wardrobe. And she’s an overall ray of sunshine and someone I take notes from very regularly. And Heidi, I’m so excited to talk with you today. So hello, my friend.

Heidi Robinson (02:06):

Hello.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:06):

And welcome.

Heidi Robinson (02:07):

I could not be happier to be here. And I feel terrible because I feel like I made you laugh before you had to say an intro.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:13):

We have been laughing a lot already, so (laughing) it should be a good time. How are you feeling about it?

Heidi Robinson (02:19):

I sit here delighted to be with you, let me be clear about that part. And I started my professional life in a profession where I put microphones in front of people because I did not want them in front of myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Oh, this is a little roll reversal.

Heidi Robinson (02:31):

Yes, quite a bit, actually. And so, I sat here just kind of feeling cringy like, oh-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:35):

It is and as the students say, cringe.

Heidi Robinson (02:39):

Cringe, a little awk. I got a little of the ick (laughing). Spent a lot of time with students.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:43):

We’re gonna be giggling a lot, I can already tell. Well, it’s gonna be fun and we have had a lot of time to connect, as early as when I was interviewing for this job.

Heidi Robinson (02:53):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

Because you were on my search committee.

Heidi Robinson (02:55):

That was an honor.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

I appreciated that and I distinctly remember us connecting at the Graylyn and we’ve been connected since.

Heidi Robinson (03:01):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:01):

So, but this is a chance for us to maybe hone in and just connect on a different level. So, I’m really excited about it.

Heidi Robinson (03:09):

I’m delighted and honored to be with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

While you cringe.

Heidi Robinson (03:12):

And it’s always been, I do cringe. You bet, absolutely. You, you just saw me, I sprayed lavender spray on myself (laughs), take a deep breath.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

She sprayed lavender for us, so that we would relax (laughs). And, um so let’s dig in. Are you ready?

Heidi Robinson (03:25):

Let us begin.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

Alright. So, I like to start with home, you know, our origin stories say a lot about who we become, who we-

Heidi Robinson (03:33):

Indeed.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Have been, who we still are. And so, it just always feels natural to start there. So, I want to start with a question that I often start with when I’m introducing myself, which is where’s home for you?

Heidi Robinson (03:46):

Where is home?

Shea Kidd Brown (03:47):

And I’ll add a bonus question.

Heidi Robinson (03:49):

Oh, good. I like a bonus.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Yes. What does home mean to you?

Heidi Robinson (03:51):

Oh, whoof. I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

We’re starting with a softball.

Heidi Robinson (03:55):

Yes. Wow, there was not much runway there (laughs). I’ll doing my best. Home is such a big, big four-letter word.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Yeah, it’s a big word.

Heidi Robinson (04:05):

Yes, it is a big word. A big, very important one. So, I’ll take it into two different places perhaps.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

That’s great.

Heidi Robinson (04:10):

I was born in the state of Washington.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:11):

Mm-hmm.

Heidi Robinson (04:12):

So, I was born there. I consider myself a West Coaster at heart. That informed a lot of the way I see. But I’m sure it wasn’t just the West Coast-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:20):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (04:20):

It wasn’t just being from the Pacific Northwest. But there is something about the way that felt very open both in terms of space. And it’s a place still that’s very new in the United States. And so, there’s still something in there that feels like a place of beginnings, opportunities.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:36):

Growth.

Heidi Robinson (04:37):

Yes, yes, growth. And that’s where I started right outside of Seattle but I grew up primarily in Gig Harbor, Washington. And so, in between that time, so I had a little stint, my mom and I in DC, a little stint in California. And then the vast majority of that time in the state of Washington where I grew up thinking that gray was beautiful. I didn’t know that rain, but most people-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

You know, the sunshine.

Heidi Robinson (05:00):

I didn’t. I will tell you, I just thought that rain was pretty. That was my day, that was every day that I’d say, “Oh, rainy day.” And I feel like yeah, a rainy day.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

That’s normal.

Heidi Robinson (05:08):

You can just get wet once.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:09):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (05:09):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

So, your hometown is that a small town? Is it-

Heidi Robinson (05:14):

Very much.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (05:15):

When we first moved to Gig Harbor, there was one high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:18):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (05:19):

There was one middle school. And then it was wild when we had two high schools. Divided the town.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:26):

Two, yeah. A revolution….

Heidi Robinson (05:26):

And the time we got our first grocery store. “Oh my gosh, now, a Safeway ah, what’s gonna happen here?” Yeah, it was okay and my parents were teachers. And so, my folks were initially at the high school. And then I had one parent at one high school-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

Oh, y’all bridged that gap.

Heidi Robinson (05:42):

One parent at the other, oh, yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

My mom was a teacher.

Heidi Robinson (05:42):

So education.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

What grade?

Heidi Robinson (05:44):

My mom started, actually, in middle school, junior high they called it then.

Shea Kidd Brown (5:50)

Oh yes

Heidi Robinson (5:51)

She did English, I know. And then she went into high school. And my dad, high school history for him, social studies. And for her, she started out in what is called Home Economics. No-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

Oh, yes.

Heidi Robinson (06:01):

An oldie but a goodie. And then when she went back to grad school, she became a counselor, I know shocking-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:06):

Yeah, right.

Heidi Robinson (06:06):

… with an interest in careers. Her father, vocational counselor.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:11):

Oh, wow, I didn’t know all this stuff.

Heidi Robinson (06:11):

Yes, yes, my grandfather played baseball and football. First generation college student, first generation student athlete at Washington State University. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:18):

Yes, they’re having a very good football season right now.

Heidi Robinson (06:20):

They are, they’re having a time finding a place to live. But speaking of homes, that’s kind of my Mom’s side of the family. That’s how we got to higher education, was athletics.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

Ah.

Heidi Robinson (06:28):

And so yes. He said, “Bob, what are you gonna be when you grow up now that you had this great experience of going to college?” He goes, “I’m going out to find other Bob Campbell’s.”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:35):

Oh, okay.

Heidi Robinson (06:36):

And I think about that every day.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

Yeah, that’s cool. And who was Heidi as a child?

Heidi Robinson (06:40):

Oh, my goodness.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

Like, what were you like?

Heidi Robinson (06:41):

Oh, let me think. Oh, I can think about some of (laughs), maybe I’ll think about that as comments that I remember. How’s that?

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (06:50):

Heidi, use your inside voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:52):

Me too! (laughing). My mom would say.

Heidi Robinson (06:53):

Heidi.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:59):

It’s like, that’s a nice way of saying that.

Heidi Robinson (06:59):

It is. She would sometimes say, “Heidi, you’re a little gushy (laughs).” And I don’t even know if anybody uses that word but I knew what it meant.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:06):

What did she mean by that?

Heidi Robinson (07:06):

I think that there were so many words, like, gushing out of me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Oh, got it.

Heidi Robinson (07:10):

Yes, yes, yes. I just, all the language, yes. I loved to read, oh my goodness. I loved all those words that I was using because it was so much fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:18):

So, when you got in trouble, was it for talking?

Heidi Robinson (07:20):

Talking in class, talking in the car.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

I remember distinctly, I was in third grade and we were going on a trip and I was so excited. It was a trip that involved me getting a new dress. And I just was talking and talking, talking. My mom says, “Oh, baby you just like talking (laughs),” and she still tells that story. My mom, it came in handy, now I talk a lot (laughing).

Heidi Robinson (07:40):

I was practicing.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

I majored in talking.

Heidi Robinson (07:43):

That’s right, it worked out.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:44):

It did.

Heidi Robinson (07:45):

Lean into the strengths. But yes, I had so many report cards that would say, “Heidi does a very nice job and blah, blah. Also, she visits a lot with her neighbors, (laughs) Heidi visits during class.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:57):

Yeah, what I thought was a Southern phenomenon but I guess it’s a Pacific Northwest…?

Heidi Robinson (08:00):

Yeah, it sure did. “She visits in class, sometimes Heidi is chatty.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

Yes, love it.

Heidi Robinson (08:05):

Well, (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (08:05):

I love it.

Heidi Robinson (08:07):

Everyone had to ice their ears once they had me in class. No telling what the teacher said.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

I would imagine you were a great student, you just were gushy.

Heidi Robinson (08:14):

I was (laughs) gushy, I had a lot to say. And I think I was a pretty good student most of the time. But there were a lot of things that caught my attention. Literature was fabulous, I would read that literature and I would enjoy it. And then if somebody started talking next to me, I also really wanted to give them my attention also.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:28):

Yes, absolutely (laughing).

Heidi Robinson (08:31):

So, was I a good student? I think I was a good student. I probably would have been a great student if I just could have, uh, maybe stayed right there in the focus margin.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Well, I mean, what is a good student? So, we could talk about that later. But it’s like-

Heidi Robinson (08:43):

I appreciate that.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:44):

I think the curiosity and the personalities which you do a lot in your work are designed for certain students who have long attention spans, who can sit from eight to three, who follow rules.

Heidi Robinson (08:56):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:56):

Who were structure-oriented. Now I, I did well with structure but I was a talker. My mom was actually on my same hallway. So, my mom taught kindergarten, so those first through third grades I was just right above her and my second-grade class was right across the hallway from her.

Heidi Robinson (09:13):

(laughs) oh, gosh. Thank you, I actually appreciate that your mom let all of those words come out.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (09:18):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:18):

Yes. And do you have a sibling?

Heidi Robinson (09:20):

I do. So, I have what I would call a complicated family tree.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:24):

Okay. It’s not uncommon.

Heidi Robinson (09:25):

It is not uncommon. And I actually like talking about it because I like our students to know that unusual family trees are a strength.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

They are.

Heidi Robinson (09:33):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:34):

And you learn a lot.

Heidi Robinson (09:34):

You learn a lot. What I would say is, do I have siblings? Yes. I actually am one of technically, let me just think about how I’m gonna, I’m one of seven.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (09:45):

I know. I (laughing) my parents were married for four years and that marriage did not persist for them. And then not long after that my dad died.

Shea Kidd Brown (9:56)

Mmm.

Heidi Robinson (9:57)

Right before I started kindergarten. And my mom remarried and the person who has been my dad since they married had four children from his first union. So, then I went from being an only child (laughs). And they didn’t live with us but they would come over, oh, I loved it because they all were significantly older than I was.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:14):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (10:14):

And then my mom and dad had my brother and my sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:18):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (10:18):

I’m the hinge.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

That is an interesting role.

Heidi Robinson (10:19):

I was there, it is an interesting role.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Did you feel caught in the middle, is the word I’ll use. But please don’t let me define that for you. Like, what was the middle like? Maybe is a better question.

Heidi Robinson (10:29):

Yes, I love that actually. I do really feel like a hinge, because I feel like the connection.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:34):

Mm-hmm.

Heidi Robinson (10:34):

And so, I knew Jim, Monica, Chris, Noelle, then I kind of was there. But then I grew up primarily with Rob and Amy. And then I’m very close with cousins right there too.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:44):

Right, and such a gift.

Heidi Robinson (10:44):

And so, I always felt like the oldest.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:47):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (10:47):

But I think (laughs) that part’s pretty easy to identify.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:49):

No matter what the age.

Heidi Robinson (10:50):

Oh, my goodness, yes. I was definitely the oldest. And then it was sort of I guess, I think of myself as the person who the hinge, the connector but the bridge-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (10:58):

Between those parts of my life, but also my parents’ lives.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (11:02):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

So, that makes a lot of sense because I think of you as this ray of sunshine. And this, just really positive energy, I’m not just saying that. Like I, you come into a space, even as we frantically both come in from working, and you’re just a joy and a delight to be around. So, knowing home-

Heidi Robinson (11:22):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:24):

And what home has been for you, really that makes a lot of sense.

Heidi Robinson (11:27):

Well, thank you. I received that and I also as a two on the Enneagram, I cringe with compliments. I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no, no. No, it’s you (laughs). It is you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:38):

You have to open up….

Heidi Robinson (11:39):

Yes, I have to accept but-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:39):

Yeah. I got to do the Enneagram, I haven’t done it before.

Heidi Robinson (11:42):

I think you would enjoy it.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:43):

I will have you type me. But that might be another-

Heidi Robinson (11:45):

Yes, as a counselor, I would say you have to choose for your, you know (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

Very true.

Heidi Robinson (11:50):

Tim Auman, who always just I feel his wisdom in so many ways when I am with him. One of the things I’ve heard him tell students but he has also said to me, “We always want to put our best foot forward. We should pay attention to the one that we’re dragging behind.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:04):

Tim Auman is-

Heidi Robinson (12:05):

Tim Auman.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:05):

I mean full of wisdom for those who don’t know Tim Auman, he’s our chaplain. That’s so important.

Heidi Robinson (12:11):

I mean, and I feel that for myself, but I feel like also, Wake Forest. We are full, we’re a community of people who are achievers and want to do great things. And so, that best foot forward sometimes feels so natural to put forward. And when we talk about things like a family that doesn’t look like a portrait necessarily, it’s an interesting tapestry. It sure is a ma- mosaic.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:31):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (12:31):

There was a time when that didn’t feel good talking about that. But you really just want to say, “This bright, shiny picture. Have you heard of the sunshine family? That’s us, woo!” But actually, I appreciate now thinking about the fact that being in those spaces and what home feels like, that it can feel bigger. That to me really informs who I want to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:51):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (12:52):

I want to have that feeling of being home with other people.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:55):

Yeah. Well and you give that. I mean, you give that sense of home, you did it for me and as students and staff and faculty talk about you in that way. And I think you’re right, no one connects with perfection. You know, I think we all have this hope that we got it all together.

Heidi Robinson (13:10):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:13):

Students call it Wake Face. And it’s like none of us have it-

Heidi Robinson (13:15):

No, no.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:16):

Quote, if you could see me, I’m air quoting, “all together.” And it’s where that beauty of disconnection and dysfunctions at some level, and Brene Brown calls it the messy middle. It’s where the magic happens and I think that’s, I mean you do that so well and I appreciate you sharing that story with me and those who are listening. Because so many of us, students, faculty, staff, community members, whoever might be listening, are imperfect. And our family structures, I mean, I divorced when my son was three. And that’s something I’ve learned to be able to talk about more openly and not as a badge or, uh, attention seeking but to say we all have a story.

(13:55):

We all have a journey, we’ve all had twists and turns and roadblocks and fits and starts so whatever symbolism you want to use and so much more than titles, or our credentials. It really is this story that I think makes, I don’t know, it’s a heart work. You know, as I talk about hard work and heart work.

Heidi Robinson (14:13):

I love the heart work and I do love exactly what you just said. No one can identify with perfection, we might aspire, that is something to unpack too, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:22):

It is, true.

Heidi Robinson (14:22):

Like thinking about that that would be the aspiration because it’s such an empty shell.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

Absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (14:28):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

And then we can laugh and be silly and then that invites other people to let their guard down. And what you said about belonging, you know that is no matter what your story is, everyone has one.

Heidi Robinson (14:40):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

And so, then you begin to think about, “Oh okay, what were the things that shaped my life?” You know, I grew up in Hattiesburg, Mississippi and I think you know that and so. Oh, they said visit (laughs) in Washington too. Uh, so then there’s a connection point or you know, even you talking about your siblings. I have two siblings, I have two brothers born in three different decades. So, even though our families are very different, I connected with you to, to understand like you were in the middle, I’m in the middle.

Heidi Robinson (15:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:07):

Um, but in a very different way. My older brother was a first year in college when my younger brother was born. So, that certainly framed, I always felt like the oldest-

Heidi Robinson (15:18):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

I still do.

Heidi Robinson (15:19):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:20):

Even though, one is significantly older than me.

Heidi Robinson (15:22):

You give them, let me see if I can get it right for that Gen Z-ers, or you’re giving first child vibes. You’re giving first (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (15:30):

We work on our-

Heidi Robinson (15:31):

I try.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:33):

Staying younger. I’d say to my non higher ed friends, I’m always a step ahead and with my students, I’m always at least a couple of steps behind.

Heidi Robinson (15:39):

My gosh.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:39):

So, that keeps me very grounded, very grounded. So, talk to me about where home is for you. What does it mean?

Heidi Robinson (15:45):

Yes. What does it mean? Oh, boy. And I actually like thinking about home not as just a location.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Same.

Heidi Robinson (15:52):

Because it’s true. I grew up in the state of Washington, but now I’ve lived in the South longer than I lived on the West Coast. Even though I say how much that informs me. I think I need to really stop to think about how much that informs me as much as I think it does.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

Hmm, yeah.

Heidi Robinson (16:05):

Because I’ve now lived here. I mean, I know there’s some foundational pieces-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:09):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (16:09):

Developmentally, I can think to myself, indeed, that is true. And that I’ve lived in the South since I was 21. That wasn’t yesterday.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:20):

Are you sure?

Heidi Robinson (16:20):

I’m pretty sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:21):

I feel like it was like, a couple, you know, a couple of years.

Heidi Robinson (16:24):

Do you, every now and then I think it was more recent than it actually is but.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:27):

Well, slight sidebar. I said this to someone earlier today, higher ed makes you think you’re a lot younger, because-

Heidi Robinson (16:34):

That is true.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:35):

Every August, it’s like it’s August, it’s time to start. It’s really exciting and our seasons are the same. We have a fall semester and we have a spring semester and students do what they do in the summer. And we come back and we have a fall semester, and students move in and its football season every fall, our undergraduate students are 18, and every fall, we are not.

Heidi Robinson (16:52):

(laughs), I will add to that. If you walk around and everyone around you is young, you might be confused and think to yourself, I’m surrounded by young people, surely I am too. And as you were saying that-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:05):

Delusional. Isn’t she delusional?

Heidi Robinson (17:06):

And apparently the new word is delulu.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

Oh, okay.

Heidi Robinson (17:08):

I’m full of these things today.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:09):

Word of the day.

Heidi Robinson (17:10):

Word of the day. Nina Banks, the wonderful Presidential Fellow in our office is the one, she gave me a preview. She said, “I’ve got one for next week.” And I said, “What is it?” I said, “Oh, wait, wait, wait. I’ll save it, I’ll save it and wait for that.” And she said, “Are you sure?” And I said, “Okay, just say it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:23):

Tell me.

Heidi Robinson (17:23):

Delulu (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (17:28):

I have to try that out with my 14-year-old and see. Because he’s someone else who keeps me very grounded and connected to all the things.

Heidi Robinson (17:33):

Speaking of home, my great-grandmother would say, “Bless your,” she would sometimes say soul or your heart. And so, I grew up in the state of Washington, hear that, but it really did mean there. “Oh, I’m so sorry.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:44):

Right, not “hmm.”

Heidi Robinson (17:46):

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:48):

Well, we cut it to “Bless.”

Heidi Robinson (17:49):

Yeah, I do like saying that too. “Bless.” See those are things that I picked up in my journey. So, it’s where you can be yourself, I guess. I’m gonna try to come back to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:58):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (17:58):

I guess there are a couple levels to it, probably more than a couple. But there’s a way of helping other people feel so that they can take off their shoes, metaphorically. And so, I think that’s the way I want to be with people because I think that that is the way I want to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:16):

Yeah. I think it’s beautiful. You don’t need that affirmation for me, but I do. I think it’s safety-

Heidi Robinson (18:20):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:20):

It’s security-

Heidi Robinson (18:21):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:21):

It’s being yourself. That’s my definition of it. Being-

Heidi Robinson (18:24):

Yes, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:25):

Unapologetic.

Heidi Robinson (18:26):

Yes. Don’t apologize to me for leaving something on the counter, it’s probably gonna be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:31):

I love the idea of taking your shoes off, being comfortable.

Heidi Robinson (18:34):

Yeah, yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:34):

Inside and outside of yourself.

Heidi Robinson (18:37):

Yes, my two children, my sons. We taught them early on, as soon as they walked through the door to take their shoes off. And part of the reason we started doing that, one of our friends was in cancer treatment. And her oncologist had said “90% of the germs in home come in on shoes. And we went to visit, we needed to take off shoes.” So, I thought, “Well, if I’m gonna have them do that there I need them to do that here so that it becomes second nature.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:58):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (18:58):

So, open door, take off shoes, open door, take off shoes. So, at home, home is our barefoot selves. And so, that’s when I guess when I say home is a place or people with whom you feel like you can take off your shoes.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:12):

Yeah, that comes from…home.

Heidi Robinson (19:12):

Yeah, it really does come from home and it is that go ahead and pat across the floor.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:18):

Yeah, I asked that and I love student responses especially right now as we record, I say where’s home for you and they’re like, “Collins.”

Heidi Robinson (19:24):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:24):

And I’m like, “That’s so beautiful.”

Heidi Robinson (19:26):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:28):

Because in four weeks that has become a place that they can take their shoes off. In a short time many of which are from, home is, is Washington or home is Oregon or home is Collins or Babcock. You know, that’s pretty powerful and then they go, “Oh, you meant like-

Heidi Robinson (19:45):

Yeah-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:45):

“Where I just moved from?”

Heidi Robinson (19:45):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:48):

Yeah, but I want you to describe home for what you want to describe it, so.

Heidi Robinson (19:52):

That really gets me because that’s what I hope students feel here. That they feel that this is a safe place that you can go ahead and pad across the floor, wherever that is, if it’s on the quad, or this is a place where it’s been set up to be safe for you.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:07):

In the classroom.

Heidi Robinson (20:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

It’s an opportunity to define that. Because we also know that home may have a negative connotation for students who are transitioning from their physical space to Wake Forest. Or, you know, they may be seniors or graduate students, so I think that gives an opportunity to say it. I’m thinking of music and The Wiz.

Heidi Robinson (20:28):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

You know, that song “Home?”

Heidi Robinson (20:29):

Oh, my god.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:33):

Yeah, and so it’s “When I think of home, I think of a place where there’s love overflowing. I wish I was home, I wish I was back there.” And she was, of course, talking about Kansas. There’s love and there’s acceptance, and there’s belonging and-

Heidi Robinson (20:44):

A level of familiarity with what you can expect and that you matter, and that you have a space there.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:49):

Yeah. So, I know that we could stay there. And I feel at home, I feel home right now.

Heidi Robinson (20:55):

Yeah, I do too.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

I have things that I want to know about you, but also don’t want to rush our time, you know, and thinking about this. And I think I could go on a lot of different directions. I think where I am curious is I know where you are now and I know now more about upbringing and family. What happened in the middle there? (laughs) So, you know, after school, I have that.

Heidi Robinson (21:18):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:19):

And then I, somewhere 10 years ago, you came to Wake Forest.

Heidi Robinson (21:22):

(laughs) yes, indeed.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

Tell me what happened.

Heidi Robinson (21:25):

The other part of the story, right? So, growing up in the state of Washington, I never believed I would not be in the state of Washington. And I’m not sure how that is for everyone but I imagined Gig Harbor, Washington as sort of the center.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:37):

For life.

Heidi Robinson (21:37):

Yes, I knew it so well. And then as it turns out, someone from that same area, we met and he, my wonderful spouse of now 33 years, we started dating.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:50):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (21:51):

And he was in Tennessee and so we-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:54):

But you met in college?

Heidi Robinson (21:55):

We met while I was in college.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:56):

While you’re in college?

Heidi Robinson (21:56):

Yep, yes, right. He was already working and our families had been friends for years. And I just didn’t know they had an older son, I knew Jay’s brother like this. Yeah, and then this is one of the craziest stories I feel like I tell is my own wedding story (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (22:14):

Ooh, now I’m intrigued.

Heidi Robinson (22:15):

I know, I know you know. So, I had girls that were in my sorority, I had a Greek experience. So, I lived with 70 girls and some of them had bride magazines, I could never understand that.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

While they’re in college?

Heidi Robinson (22:25):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:25):

Just planning.

Heidi Robinson (22:26):

I couldn’t get my mind, I didn’t understand why you would have it and I had no interest in having one.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:30):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (22:31):

My mom was a counselor, very engaged in her own career, so was my grandmother. I mean, that was sort of my reference point, right? So, you sort of you know what you know because you see it. So, I never had a bride magazine. And then as it turns out, we planned our wedding for after I graduated from college.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:49):

Are you serious?

Heidi Robinson (22:49):

I am. I started college, the day I turned 18. That should be illegal, that should not be possible.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:57):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (22:57):

It’s way, way young, which means that I am telling you, I graduated from college and planned my wedding for that summer. That doesn’t feel like a feminist thing to say.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:07):

Like immediately after?

Heidi Robinson (23:08):

Not immediately, I went home and planned to finish or for me to finish. I was absolutely finishing all of my things. I taught swimming lessons in my parents’ pool. And so, to help pay for my wedding, I think I probably paid for my wedding dress with the swimming lessons.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:21):

Hey that’s pretty cool.

Heidi Robinson (23:21):

It was pretty cool. And then we moved, I planned to start my internship as soon as I got to Tennessee.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:26):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (23:26):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

And, and you majored in communications?

Heidi Robinson (23:28):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:29):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (23:29):

Yes. And that is where my spouse was and at that point he’d been there for a minute. So, we were going where his job was, and I was going to make sure I found a job. But Shea in TV, they don’t come to campus recruiting, you have to go to them.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:42):

I was going to say, you have to send in-

Heidi Robinson (23:44):

Oh, yes, yes. From my campus station, which although we were good, everyone remembers our School of Communication. And then my first job when I was in college still, I did, there were cut ins on the CNN Headline News for the local. So, I did some of those. I sent those. I sent little projects I’d done my senior year. And my news director said, “This is great. I’ll hire you as an intern.” I said, “Nope. I will have graduated.” And he said, “I’ll hire you as an intern.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:09):

Do you want to start?

Heidi Robinson (24:10):

That’s right, that’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:11):

And what city were y’all in?

Heidi Robinson (24:12):

That was in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:13):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (24:14):

So, I wrote a check back to my school for my unpaid internship and started. I know, so I always tell students, it makes sense when I look at it from 54, looking back, but at the time, it was trudging forward with my best smile on my face and my jaw gritted.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:30):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (24:30):

Because it was, “What is gonna happen here?”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:32):

Exactly, you did not know.

Heidi Robinson (24:33):

I did not know. So, I did my first unpaid week. And my news director literally swaggered up, I feel like that’s how it was. And he said, “Do you want to work for money?” Yes, yes actually.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:43):

Absolutely, sign me up.

Heidi Robinson (24:43):

That would be wonderful. And he said, “Our morning show producer is going to be open, our morning show producer role. Okay, I said, “Yes, I’ll take it, thank you.” Which meant I was getting up in the morning at 2:30.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:54):

Now had you done producing or had you been on the other side?

Heidi Robinson (24:57):

I had done both.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:59):

Okay.

Heidi Robinson (24:59):

Maybe that was sort of the program, you kinda do the whole thing. So, yeah, the first year of being married and being a young professional, I would get to work-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:07):

You’re getting up for makeup at 2:00 or I guess you were producing so-

Heidi Robinson (25:09):

They, they never saw me in make up for a year and a half, the people at my station.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:12):

Yeah. You just rolled out of bed.

Heidi Robinson (25:13):

Just rolled out of bed.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:14):

Did you go to bed at like six?

Heidi Robinson (25:16):

Yes, I did as a night owl.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:17):

I have a friend who works in the Winston Salem local news or but, you know, if you try to call her at like 9pm you’re not gonna get her because she’s already in bed.

Heidi Robinson (25:25):

She’s in bed.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:27):

Very much in bed.

Heidi Robinson (25:28):

Very much. Yeah, so that was what I did. I like to tell students, “Your first job is not your dream job, it’s not going to be.” And I will tell you getting up at O’dark thirty and being in a newsroom by myself typing up different things, making sure that I had things going, that was not my dream job. Six months, and it wasn’t my dream job.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:47):

You weren’t on the today show at 21?.

Heidi Robinson (25:48):

Shocking. But then, you know, within a year I started doing consumer reporting. Did a morning show, I did a live shot from my hospital room after I gave birth to Blake Robinson.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

What?

Heidi Robinson (26:00):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:00):

Are you serious?

Heidi Robinson (26:00):

100%.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Because going back to that perfection piece, I mean, in that world, how important this aspiration of perfection is, yet, what viewers love are, I mean I have never been in that field. But what viewers love even when I’m unscripted or when I’m shooting live, people love that more. And I’m like, “Oh, no,” going back to that whole cringe.

Heidi Robinson (26:23):

And TV is a breeding ground for perfectionism. And it’s such a high emphasis on exterior. A lot of, it is a training ground for really reinforcing some of that.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:35):

Yeah, the negative things.

Heidi Robinson (26:36):

Yeah, some of those pieces that-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

What is beauty-

Heidi Robinson (26:38):

Yes, all of that-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:40):

Representation.

Heidi Robinson (26:41):

That’s so much. So, that part was never going to fill my soul. Transitioning back to giving birth to Blakey-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:47):

Giving birth, birth to Blake. Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (26:48):

Yes, I gave birth to Blakey at 10:42 am. And by noon, they were pulling cables through my hospital room.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:53):

(laughs) oh my god, that’s wild.

Heidi Robinson (26:55):

(laughs) uh, yes. And so, then I was holding Blake and Jay was there and we did a little live shot, “This is John Blakely Robinson.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:02):

“Welcome to the world!”.

Heidi Robinson (27:02):

Yes, yes. So much fun. Now I’m glad I did it. At the time, I thought, “I’m really not just feeling my best.” But I was still-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:11):

Yeah, no. No biggie.

Heidi Robinson (27:12):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:13):

Well, things were different. And I think about today with phones and, you know, how different that might have been too. But I want to go back to something you said about this whole journey of film and producing and all that. I’ll get it wrong, I won’t say it as eloquently as you did but this whole notion that it was the next step, it wasn’t your whole life. (laughs) You know, and so, so often, we pressure ourselves, our students, you know, wanna know the whole picture and that it’s all going to be perfect. And, and they, they work really hard and we’ve worked really hard in our lives. But we have the benefit of life to look back and say the next step just leads you to the next step.

Heidi Robinson (27:52):

Oh, and to that whole idea of wanting that things to look perfect. TV made you want things to look perfect.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:59):

Yeah, I bet.

Heidi Robinson (28:00):

But I think the parallel for our students is social media. And so, the benefit of both being on TV where you can take, take after take. “You don’t like that one? Let’s do it again.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:09):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (28:09):

“You don’t like that cut, take it again.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:11):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (28:11):

Until you get it, air quote, “perfect.” Pressure to making sure that it’s all perfect. That translation is what I see our students dealing with, but they deal with it daily. And I think for me, for my soul, TV is fun, it is a fun business to be in. I enjoyed it, it was good to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:28):

Yeah. Not all good..

Heidi Robinson (28:29):

Yes, there was a lot and there were parts of it that really were soul sucking to me. I really loved the “look at me culture” enough. I could have been satisfied with that but I will tell you, I know exactly where I was when I decided it was time to step out. There were two times I stepped out. One I stepped out when I found out that I was going to have my second son.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

Oh.

Heidi Robinson (28:50):

Yes, and so it just became a time when I wondered how much I was going to be able to do it all.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:59):

And that’s such a-

Heidi Robinson (28:59):

Yes-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Big Question.

Heidi Robinson (29:01):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:01):

Especially for women.

Heidi Robinson (29:02):

Yes, for women and I’ve had this conversation both with women and with men and thinking through what does that look like? And I appreciate the men who will ask the question, too. I appreciate the idea that my son’s asked that question, how do I have a whole life with my partner? And so, for me at that point, I really thought I have to love this thing enough that drains me. It takes a lot of effort to make it look perfect. Or I have to decide what I love more. And so, I did freelance TV for a long time and then really the time when I decided that I was stepping away from TV more fully was when I went to graduate school here at Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Okay, Hmm. I love this segue to Wake because I have to say, when Heidi’s at an event and you have your name and your title and then all of your Wake Forest credentials (laughs), Between your degrees and your son’s degrees, you have a special badge.

Heidi Robinson (29:52):

It’s a lot, I almost need a second badge. It’s so silly, I always joke it looks like I have seven children, which I would have loved to have had seven children. As it turns out, I have two but there’s a lot of Wake Forest in our family.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:01):

Very well educated (laughs)

Heidi Robinson (30:02):

Yes. So, I was doing freelance TV, doing what my friends called this part of my life my cause TV, which I loved. I was doing this particular story was about a grandmother who had taken in her grandchildren. Her son was in Iraq as a soldier and her daughter-in-law had left the hospital and left the third baby in the hospital. So, grandmother had come in, grandmother’s on disability, sold all of the furniture out of her house on the first floor, she kept the beds. And so, the story was about this ministry, an organization of men. And what they had was an entire warehouse of furniture and home, any supplies you might need to set up a home they had it, all neatly organized.

(30:41):

And what they would do is load up literally a truck and take it to people who needed it. So, this woman, I’d gone and it was the story we were shooting it the day after Thanksgiving, I went in. And there were no chairs, you could see the remains of their Thanksgiving meal, which she made for all three of the children for herself, you could see it at the kitchen counter.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:59):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (30:59):

There wasn’t a place to sit. And so, we go in, I’ve done the interview with her. The children are just delightful and we’ve talked about what her needs are and why she hasn’t told her son, what’s going on because he is away.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:12):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (31:12):

She doesn’t want to burden him, yeah. But she also doesn’t know how to get more help.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:16):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (31:17):

Here rolls the truck.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:18):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (31:18):

They opened the back of the truck, and these very, very kind retired humans start unloading it. Beds, Ottomans, sofas, dishes, you name it. Whatever it was, they started filling her house and she came as we all would in her human space undone.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:37):

I bet.

Heidi Robinson (31:37):

The children were jumping on the sofas, jumping, like-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:40):

Oh, so happy.

Heidi Robinson (31:40):

Jump, jump, jump, jump, jump. All they could see was the happy piece but she was undone. And she’s sobbing in my arms and I, even telling you this story it gets me every time, because I’m holding her and my photographer, he’s tapping his watch. He’s like, “We got it, you have all of the things. You have it, you’ve got great video, you’ve got audio, you’ve got the emotion of this, we’re done.”

Shea Kidd Brown (32:07):

But meanwhile, I’ve got this woman in my arms.

Heidi Robinson (32:09):

I have a human who is absolutely wide open and raw and sobbing and I don’t want to leave her-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:17):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (32:18):

Undone.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (32:19):

And I thought in that moment, I am not going to do this unless I have some skills. I need to help her bind herself up together enough because she’s got these littles who are now jumping around her and she needs to start her life and take the next step with them.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:32):

Yeah, it also sounds like the dissonance was this profession that was capturing this beautiful moment. But once it was captured, it was time to wrap it up and go.

Heidi Robinson (32:41):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:42):

And your heart was all about staying in that moment.

Heidi Robinson (32:45):

Yeah, this human. Yes, amazing story and it was painful for me to have to think about leaving her-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:54):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (32:54):

Without feeling like I’d at least helped her kind of stitch things up so that she could go and do the next thing she needed to get for herself and her-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

Yeah, like you said the leaving undone, that’s the doing good also requires kinda staying-

Heidi Robinson (33:08):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:08):

With the person-

Heidi Robinson (33:09):

Yeah, that’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:10):

And making sure the needs get met.

Heidi Robinson (33:10):

And I applied to graduate school-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:13):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (33:13):

Within like the next (laughs) like the next four weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:13):

I was gonna say where that where you were like-

Heidi Robinson (33:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Counseling.

Heidi Robinson (33:18):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:18):

Or had that been in your heart before that moment?

Heidi Robinson (33:23):

I thought at some point, I would go to graduate school. And genuinely I thought, it might be Counseling, it might be the Divinity School because both of those help people find their places of growth and open to them things bigger than themselves. And so, I applied to counseling and when Sam Gladding called me and said, “I would like to invite you in,” I can tell you just where I was. Because I fell to my knees and I thought, “Thank you, this is a great answer.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:49):

Yeah, that’s amazing. That would not have found you without this journey-

Heidi Robinson (33:54):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

Of saying yes to the-

Heidi Robinson (33:58):

That’s right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

Unpaid internship that turned into a yes for a paid job that turned into more opportunities to help you find the place. And even-

Heidi Robinson (34:06):

The place.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:07):

… in higher ed, it’s like, what I love is that within this sphere, the space that we get to occupy, there’s so much, you know, like you’re not practicing counseling right now yet you are totally practicing counseling right now.

Heidi Robinson (34:21):

I hope so, I hope so.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

You know?

Heidi Robinson (34:23):

I hope so, because I think about that as just being in a place to support people in their growth, natural transitions. And that to me is everything about what I want to be helping people into places where they grow into who they want to be and into their own story. That would be even the connection to me for why I probably love TV in the first place.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

Yeah, totally.

Heidi Robinson (34:44):

I was telling stories.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

Telling stories, yeah.

Heidi Robinson (34:48):

But then, I guess the way I see it now is I’m helping other people tell their own and write their own, write their chapters.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:54):

Right, absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (34:55):

Instead of me doing it for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:57):

Right, you know, as you talk to people about meaning and purpose as I talked about your intro. Tell me about, what are those conversations like with students? Does it feel like a natural pathway to figuring out career for them?

Heidi Robinson (35:12):

Sometimes, I think students, I’m back to that strong internal pull toward perfection and certainty. And the beauty of life is in the imperfection, it’s in the messy middle Brene Brown. And it is in the journey, which is sometimes uncomfortable, it’s, sometimes the road is muddy, and you know, you are pulling your boots out and taking that next step that’s tricky, and that’s the best way. So, I think that strong pull for the perfection piece is something that we have to continue to have conversations. I have to have them with myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:52):

Yeah, me too.

Heidi Robinson (35:52):

So, I wish I would say I was free from the pool of perfection.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:57):

Oh, the same.

Heidi Robinson (35:57):

That’ll be the day that I think someone plants a hydrangea over me (laughs). All that to say, I hope that there’s at least along in my own trying to free myself from that, trying to help others free themselves because not only is it a terrible burden, but it’s such a trap.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:12):

It is, because you can’t get there.

Heidi Robinson (36:14):

No, no and even if we did, what would that look like?

Shea Kidd Brown (36:17):

Exactly.

Heidi Robinson (36:17):

It would look so different from one to another and-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

And it would be disconnected.

Heidi Robinson (36:20):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:21):

Like what we said earlier.

Heidi Robinson (36:23):

Yes. And so, I think for our students, when I think about having those conversations, it’s about sitting with the very, very uncomfortable concept of ambiguity. And having enough faith in yourself or that Steve Jobs has this, quote, “Have enough faith in yourself or in whatever it is that you believe in that if you’ve taken the steps to get here, you can take the next steps to get there.”

Shea Kidd Brown (36:45):

Absolutely, you’re very trained in the brain and part of the brain in psychology is mastery experiences. So, it’s this notion of if you’ve done it once, and it might have been shaky, it might have been scary. You might not have felt like you did it, but you did it.

Heidi Robinson (37:02):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

And I think helping students understand that is really how anything is, quote “mastered,” as a speaker. I remember breaking out in hives in college-

Heidi Robinson (37:12):

Oh, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:13):

At the notion of a speech, at the notion of an interview, and now I’m like, “Oh I got an interview (laughs) this is so fun.” You know, but it, I had to do it. And then it got better and then it got easier and now it’s very, I always get nervous, though.

Heidi Robinson (37:28):

Oh, me too.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:28):

You know.

Heidi Robinson (37:29):

And when I first started having to do things like speeches, if you’re doing something in the TV world, oh, you must love to speak to groups. That is false, there is nothing easier than looking at one eye, which is the camera lens, rather than 1,200 eyes in a room.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:44):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (37:44):

And so, I feel the same way. I would shake and I was uncomfortable and people say, “Oh, that seemed good.” And I thought, “Oh my gosh,” I had to really do a lot of mental gymnastics.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:54):

Oh, totally. Well, Gretchen Rubin talks about acting the way you want to feel-

Heidi Robinson (37:58):

Oh.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:59):

Have you ever read the Happiness Project?

Heidi Robinson (38:00):

Well, I’ll, I’ll always tell, act as if. If you remember there’s a theorist too who says it, why can’t I think of it. But he says, you know, “Act as if.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

It really does help, but I think it’s an important message for people to know, we grapple with these same questions and that’s the special sauce that you have with students. I mean, they talk about you and your work and taking your class. I was talking with my fellow who just graduated, Gretchen Castelloe and she said, “I took her college career, I loved it.” So, what do you want them to know? At least to wrap and I feel like we could do a part two very easily (laughs). Keep that in your brain but you know what’s important for them in this moment that they’re in whether their first years and just got here.

(38:48):

Whether they’re preparing for their last academic year or not preparing they’re in it or graduate students and I know all those stages are different. So, let’s maybe think about the undergraduate student for now.

Heidi Robinson (38:59):

I love it, I love what you’re saying is that they are all different. Oh, my goodness, yes. And at the core of every student, I want them to know they are enough, they have enough. What got them here, some of that foundation, that same 18-year-old who is walking onto this campus and trying to figure out their belonging. This is not the first time they’ve done this, they did this in kindergarten too.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:22):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (39:22):

And they were enough then, they’ve got this for now. That graduating senior who was saying, “Am I enough to take this next step? Have I really done enough compared to-“

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

Or I don’t have a job yet?

Heidi Robinson (39:32):

I don’t have a job yet.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:35):

You know.

Heidi Robinson (39:35):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:35):

It’s October (laughs)

Heidi Robinson (39:35):

Yes, yes, they have it. They are enough and they don’t have to do it by themselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:38):

Right.

Heidi Robinson (39:39):

And that it is not weakness to ask for help.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:42):

No.

Heidi Robinson (39:42):

And to say I would like to have my people alongside me.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:45):

Yes, it’s a sign of strength.

Heidi Robinson (39:46):

The more that we can model that for them to say that I have times when I asked myself am I really the person who should be doing whatever they fill in the blank. Sometimes I just have to do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:57):

Absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (39:58):

Whether I am sure or not.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:00):

And then say that out loud, like I think it’s okay to call somebody and say, “I feel really nervous about this.”

Heidi Robinson (40:05):

Absolutely, absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:07):

Yeah, I got a big speech coming up in a few weeks, and I got on the phone with a friend and said, “I just want to name I’m a little overwhelmed. Can we talk about this?” So, we talk a lot about naming, just taking it from what’s in my brain and just saying it out loud, I feel overwhelmed.

Heidi Robinson (40:21):

Dr. Shea Kidd Brown, before I came to do this podcast with you, I called a beloved human and actually said, “Do I have something to say? Do I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:30):

(laughs) Are you serious?

Heidi Robinson (40:31):

Yes, today.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:32):

Wow.

Heidi Robinson (40:33):

As I was walking over, I called Zachary and he said, “Why are you walking so fast?” I said, “Because I’m late.” And he said, “That’s not why you’re calling me.” And I said, “Do I have some stories to tell?”

Shea Kidd Brown (40:40):

Everyone has stories to tell.

Heidi Robinson (40:44):

We probably do.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:44):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (40:45):

But we all ask, are we enough?

Shea Kidd Brown (40:47):

We do.

Heidi Robinson (40:48):

And I ask that and I want our students to know, it is okay to ask that question and I want them to know they are.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:53):

Right, and that’s powerful first of all and I’m taking it into because I think we all have to remind ourselves. And it’s not more than enough, it’s enough. So, it’s this satisfaction, if we can just be comfortable and sit in what I call enoughness.

Heidi Robinson (41:11):

Oh, I love that, I might need to, I don’t have any tattoos but if I did enoughness might be a good one. Maybe on my wrist or something.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:17):

There’s toughness and there’s enoughness. And, uh, you know, I think that in all of our flaws and in all that it’s enough and it guides us to where we need to go. And it keeps us humble too, to, to understand, you know, I don’t have to be everything, I can just be enough. And my enough is okay, yours is okay and collectively, you know, when we think about the spirit of Pro Humanitate. That’s what can truly be life giving and life changing is if we just get comfortable with who we are. We don’t have to be everybody else.

Heidi Robinson (41:51):

No. And that comparison trap, I try to maintain an awareness that all of our students are wandering compared to this person who looks like they have it “all together.” They’re my air quotes. They look like they might be achieving perfection in a way that I have not yet to remind ourselves of the lie and not to let ourselves buy it. And I think we also have some groups of students who I fundamentally think we need to remind a little more frequently that they are enough and that their place is here.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:20):

Right, their place is here that they matter.

Heidi Robinson (42:23):

Yup.

Shea Kidd Brown (42:23):

And then we believe that they can drive. So, I think the last question for now. I wanna know, you’ve given me so much hope just in your outlook and what grounds your work and now I know what fuels the sunshine. But what are you hopeful for?

Heidi Robinson (42:43):

Feel hopeful surrounded by smart, capable students who genuinely care about making our planet, our place, our culture, our university a better place. That makes me hopeful. When I see this very potent combination of intellect and heart and value centered action, that makes me hopeful.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:08):

Yeah.

Heidi Robinson (43:08):

Do I think we have challenges globally, nationally, and things on our campus that we say we want things to look different? Yes. Do I feel hopeful when I see our students who care deeply about it? That makes me hopeful?

Shea Kidd Brown (43:23):

Yeah. I say often that on a lot of campuses, you can say, you can do anything you want to do, you know. And typically, you either have passion without resources, or you have resources without passion, and it feels like we have both. And on top of that just brilliant humans that-

Heidi Robinson (43:45):

They are brilliant humans.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:46):

Inhabit this place. So, I too share that we here on this campus can say we want to make a difference in the world and I believe it.

Heidi Robinson (43:56):

I do too. We do not have complacent students. And for me, that tells me, there are things to be hopeful for.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:02):

Absolutely.

Heidi Robinson (44:03):

That part for me, that brings me back here every day, every day. That is the oxygen of this place is the hope that these students, that they represent.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:12):

Yes.

Heidi Robinson (44:12):

But it’s bigger than just our campus.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:16):

It is, I agree. That feels like a perfect place to stop. Oh, but we could go-

Heidi Robinson (44:20):

Dr. Shea, I have worn you out.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:23):

No. Well, thank you, thank you for spending time with me.

Heidi Robinson (44:24):

Oh, boy, that was fun, though.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:27):

Yes, it was fun.

Heidi Robinson (44:28):

Oh, my gosh.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:30):

Thank you.

Heidi Robinson (44:30):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:30):

For spending time.

Heidi Robinson (44:31):

This was, as always, a treat.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:34):

Well, you’re a gift. Such a good conversation with Heidi. Isn’t she such a ray of sunshine? From family structures to career of interest to home as a place where you can take your shoes off. I feel like my cup has been filled. I encourage you to think about what she shared and how you might apply it to your life. Thank you for listening and I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. You have something to contribute to the world, I kid you not. Until next time keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (45:09):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who is a recognizable student body leader. Until then, I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 4: Jackie Krasas

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with the new Dean of the College and Graduate School of the Arts & Sciences, Jackie Krasas. You’ll hear about how Dean Krasas has utilized some of her learnings in different fields over the years in education, what her ‘goofy’ is like, how her upbringing shaped who she is today and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey. It’s Dr. Shea and this is Kidd You Not! The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick and how we’ve found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:46):

I am so excited to talk to my new colleague, Jackie Krasas, Dean of the College and the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. Dean Krasas recently joined Wake Forest from Lehigh University, where she served as Deputy Provost. Her scholarship focuses on gender, race and employment inequality, work and family, sexual harassment and non-standard work. Dean Krasas received a bachelor of arts degree in social relations from Lehigh and a master’s and PhD in sociology, with a specialty in gender studies from the University of Southern California. Prior to her arrival at Wake and Lehigh, she served for 10 years as a faculty member in the Department of Labor and Employment Relations at Penn State where she also directed the masters program in industrial relations and human resources.

(01:32):

I am so excited to get to know more about her story as she enters her first fall in The Forest. So, hello, and welcome.

Jackie Krasas (01:41):

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

I’m so excited. I’m glad that you agreed to participate, and I’m looking forward to talking with you. I know that any time people ask you about an interview or podcast, you’re like, “What do I need to do? Do I need to prepare?” (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (01:53):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:55):

But today’s really just about us having conversations. We’ve had a chance to do a lot of work in a short amount of time already.

Jackie Krasas (02:02):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

But really, today is about getting to know you more and as I said as we were preparing, if you have questions along the way, you can certainly ask me. But this time is really dedicated to learning about who you are and as you enter this new tenure, getting to know our students’, faculty, staff, and I know the listeners will appreciate learning from you. And because of your leadership, we’ve got lots to do and I’m just really excited about that.

(02:27):

So, I also wanna tell you just that I’m really excited that you’re here, just on a personal level. You jumped in, it feels like, before you jumped in (laughs). You were already here, and when you said the other day how long you’ve been here, I’m like, it felt like you’ve been here forever already. You’ve already made such a difference. So, I’m excited about our opportunities to do good work together in addition to our conversation today.

(02:49):

So, are you ready to get started?

Jackie Krasas (02:50):

I am ready to get started.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Good, good. So, we know you as Dean Krasas, Dr. Krasas. A lot of times our titles precede our stories. So, it always feels natural to talk about who you were before you were Dean Krasas, or Deputy Provost Krasas (laughs), or a faculty member. And so, I’m curious if we can go further back to the beginning maybe (laughs). Um, tell us about, you know, your background, where you grew up, those kinds of things that shaped where you are today.

Jackie Krasas (03:21):

Sure. Thank you. So, how far back do we wanna go? How about 11?

Shea Kidd Brown (03:24):

Age 11? Okay.

Jackie Krasas (03:24):

We could go, we could go to 11.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

That, that works. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (03:27):

(laughs). So, um, there’s just a good story about who I am. At 11-years-old, I started tutoring, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (03:32):

… tutor other kids in math and English and all sorts of different kinds of academic things because I really loved it. And so, I think at 11, without knowing it, I knew I was a teacher.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

You were a teacher. Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (03:41):

Right? So, a teacher has always been who I am and it’s sort of through everything that I’ve done. So, I grew up in Pennsylvania-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:49):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (03:49):

… just outside of Philadelphia-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (03:50):

… and I went to Lehigh University as an undergraduate. And then when I graduated, I actually worked in business for about five years.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:57):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (03:57):

So-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:57):

What kind of business?

Jackie Krasas (03:58):

… I worked in the insurance industry-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Oh.

Jackie Krasas (04:00):

… doing a variety of jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:01):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (04:02):

Now, that’s a good motivation for graduate school. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (04:04):

And I lived in Jersey, and eventually moved to Los Angeles-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (04:08):

… and I was working in insurance in Los Angeles, and I had a variety of jobs, including human resources, including business systems analyst, you name it. And so, I think that’s a great model for the liberal arts-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:19):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (04:20):

… when s- they don’t know if they can do anything with their degree.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (04:22):

I tell them what I’ve done, and then I went back to school and got a-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:25):

Yeah. So-

Jackie Krasas (04:25):

… PhD.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:26):

So, during that process of starting in Philadelphia, going to the opposite coast, were there some of those jobs, or within insurance, that you said, “This is absolutely what I don’t wanna do.”?

Jackie Krasas (04:37):

Every single one of them was pretty dreadful, um, but they were really good experience, and I think they taught me a lot. I was supervising at a very, very young age.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (04:45):

I had to be, like, 24-years-old-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (04:46):

… and I was supervising a large group for that age, like, 20 people-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (04:50):

… and folks who were my parents’ age. And then I worked at a very different kind of insurance company. It was new at the time. It was a mental health HMO.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

Oh.

Jackie Krasas (04:59):

And so, this was, like, 1989, ’90, somewhere around there.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:03):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (05:04):

And I joined that organization because I was interested in its mission-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:07):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (05:08):

… which was great. The organization was not a great place to work-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:11):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (05:11):

… so I moved on from that after-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:12):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (05:12):

… about a year. But I think this whole time, I knew I had wanted to go back to graduate school, but I really felt I needed something else in between-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:19):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (05:19):

… just to go see what’s out there-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:20):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (05:20):

… and try some things. And so, I’m really glad I did that.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

Yeah, I totally relate. I did a similar thing.

Jackie Krasas (05:25):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

I had a degree in liberal arts, communication studies and went into sales, so we’ve not talked about that, that-

Jackie Krasas (05:32):

Oh, I want to know how sales was-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

So, right. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (05:34):

… ’cause I avoided sales like the plague. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:37):

It was m- much like how you described it. I learned a lot, but I had these goals that really didn’t connect to a passion-

Jackie Krasas (05:42):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

… or a, a vision of my life. It just felt very transactional. But that was critical to figuring out who I wanted to be. So, it sounds like I had that gap between, then I went to grad school and just needed that clarity, um-

Jackie Krasas (05:54):

Yep.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

… because sometimes I think students today are very, like, “What’s next? What’s next? What’s next?” And what’s next is often going, they hope, right into what they’re gonna do for the rest of their lives, and it’s often just the next step, which leads to the next step.

Jackie Krasas (06:08):

It’s so interesting, and one of the really great things in my two plus a little bit months here has been-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (06:14):

… talking to my Board of Visitors who have a range of jobs, a range of experiences and they really articulate the liberal arts ethos really, really well.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:22):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (06:23):

And lots of them started off in, you know, English or history or gender studies or something else, or art, or-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (06:30):

… you name it. Their paths have been winding.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:32):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (06:32):

And this is always what I wanna tell students that, “Your path is gonna be winding-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:36):

Absolutely.

Jackie Krasas (06:36):

… and sure, it’s unsettling not to see what you’re gonna, quote unquote, be when you grow up-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (06:41):

… but just to try to ease into it and enjoy-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:43):

Exactly.

Jackie Krasas (06:43):

… whatever the next thing is,” and-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:45):

And it takes the pressure off. Even though goals that were in, I think if you lean into curiosity and good cliches, grow where you’re planted, but that’s true, or bloom-

Jackie Krasas (06:55):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

… where you’re planted, that’s just helping us all to slow down (laughs) and stop thinking so much about what’s next and be in the right now I think is, is really important.

(07:03):

So, I wanna dig a little bit more into just childhood. So, tell me about your family. Siblings? Only child? Uh, okay.

Jackie Krasas (07:11):

So, um, I’m the oldest.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:13):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (07:13):

I have one sister. She’s four years younger. I’m a half inch taller than her-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:19):

… so that is a-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

So, I’m sure you’ve had those bragging rights.

Jackie Krasas (07:20):

We have those, yep, all the time. She insists she’s 5’02, but she’s not.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:23):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:24):

Um, so, I’m the older sister and the taller sister.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:27):

There’s a lot to be learned from birth order, so that’s… (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:30):

Yeah. And the birth order (laughs), birth order is a whole interesting on its own.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:32):

Yeah. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (07:32):

So, we moved to a house that was basically in the woods when I was eight.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (07:37):

And so, I ended up spending so much time in the woods-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Outside.

Jackie Krasas (07:39):

… so I just love to be outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (07:41):

I love nature and I would just get up in the morning and head out, and eventually I would find my way home.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:48):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (07:48):

I don’t know how we did all of that without a cellphone.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:50):

Right?

Jackie Krasas (07:51):

But we did. And so, I was wandering out in the woods (laughs), and I would, you know, just look and see everything. I just found it really peaceful. I think that is a through line to now-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:58):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (07:58):

… because if you look at my backyard, it’s woods.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (08:01):

I find that is my really happy place-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (08:02):

… is to sit outside in nature and-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:04):

I love that.

Jackie Krasas (08:04):

… hear birds and just kind of observe.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Just be.

Jackie Krasas (08:06):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

Yeah. It’s such a lost art. I feel like (laughs), you know, because of… Technology, of course, is great, but there are… I think our kids are growing up in a very different time in that they’ve got so many stimulants. So, I love hearing about that and just how that connects to so many things in life now.

Jackie Krasas (08:24):

Yeah. It’s almost never quiet.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:26):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (08:26):

I mean, that describes these jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:27):

If you’re listening. Yeah. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (08:29):

That describes these jobs, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (08:30):

… but truly, I think for kids growing up, it’s… You need effort to have quiet for them-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:36):

That’s so true.

Jackie Krasas (08:36):

… and there’s something very nice about quiet-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (08:39):

… where you can just listen to trees moving, to birds, and I think-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:43):

Well, and I know you garden.

Jackie Krasas (08:44):

I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:45):

So, what have you found living here versus in Pennsylvania in terms of gardening and difference and similarities? (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (08:53):

Like (laughs), you have to be on top of the watering.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:54):

Yes.

Jackie Krasas (08:55):

I mean, this summer has been a little brutal. It’s either watering a lot, flooding or, um-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:59):

Yeah, we have these big chunks of rain or drought.

Jackie Krasas (09:00):

Big chunks of rain, right. And then I found things have grown really, really well here and I’ve never really been able to have fall crops.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (09:08):

So, we’re gonna try that this year-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

Oh, good.

Jackie Krasas (09:10):

… because fall extends much longer here.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:12):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (09:13):

So, I’m excited.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:13):

Well, and I know you’re settling in right now, but are you able to find time for fun? (laughs). Or is being still fun for you when you have those rare moments?

Jackie Krasas (09:22):

It depends on what you think fun is. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Well, what do you think fun is?

Jackie Krasas (09:25):

… we’ve done (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

That’s the, that’s the important answer. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (09:28):

(laughs). You know, we take a lot of walks and just get to know the neighborhood a little bit. I go to the farmer’s market every Saturday morning and just enjoy-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Oh, which one?

Jackie Krasas (09:34):

Cobblestone.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:35):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (09:35):

So, I really enjoy it there.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:36):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (09:36):

There’s a-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:36):

I haven’t been there yet.

Jackie Krasas (09:37):

… a flower stand that I really, really like and a couple of, you know, people who have vegetables that I like or there’s a person-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (09:43):

… who makes pies and hummus and th- they’ll-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:46):

Nice.

Jackie Krasas (09:47):

You should go-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:48):

I need to check that out.

Jackie Krasas (09:48):

… if you haven’t gone. And we’ve done a lot of things around the house, which have been kind of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:51):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (09:51):

Painting and-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:53):

Just making it your home. Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (09:54):

… flowers and all that stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:56):

Yeah. That’s really fun. So, I broke up our, you know, talking about the liberal arts education and that importance ’cause I really wanted to hear a little bit more about your background, and that’s really helpful. Growing up in the woods and being in the forest is, uh (laughs)… We want people to get lost here and, and get engaged. So, you talked about tutoring being critical, you know, at 11. What subject was that?

Jackie Krasas (10:18):

Oh, I did math-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (10:19):

… I did English. I sort of… Whatever.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:21):

Whatever came to mind.

Jackie Krasas (10:22):

Whatever, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:24):

Yes. Okay. So, were there people throughout your journey, so whether that was undergrad at Lehigh or further out into your graduate work, or even into your profession… Have there been people specifically who’ve influenced you throughout your life? And who are they? What have you learned from there?

Jackie Krasas (10:38):

Yeah, I would say the person who influenced me most was my grandmother.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (10:42):

She didn’t live very far from us. It was probably 10 minutes away until she got older and then moved closer, but she was there every morning and she was sort of, you know, my second mom and my best friend.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

Mm. I love that.

Jackie Krasas (10:55):

And so, she was a really, really good listener. If you had a bad day, she wouldn’t sort of pat you on the head and say, “Aw.” She would get there, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (11:03):

… she would also kind of ask you a lot of questions. She had a lot of good sayings, and so one of the things that sticks in my head, which apparently I’ve picked up and told my own daughter is-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:13):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (11:13):

… that only toads get embarrassed.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:15):

Oh. Say more.

Jackie Krasas (11:15):

I’m not sure I ever really knew what that meant-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (11:19):

… but if I was talking about being embarrassed, it’s her way of saying, “Hold your head up high and-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:22):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (11:23):

… and don’t be embarrassed, and whatever you’ve done is okay.”

Shea Kidd Brown (11:26):

Yeah. Well, I don’t think I’ve shared about my grandmother, so I love that we have that in common. My grandmother is also really special to me and she lived further away. She was about an hour and a half away, which was not far, but she wasn’t part of our day to day, at least in person. But she was also one of those who had pearls of wisdom and I think just came up in a different time. My grandmother was very involved in the civil rights movement, and so her, what we might say, grit today or resilience and there’s… You and I both problematize both of those words (laughs) to some degree-

Jackie Krasas (11:59):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:59):

… because it’s based on background and experience. But having said all of that, she encouraged and instilled that same self-respect and expecting to make mistakes and learning from them and, and being proud of who you are.

Jackie Krasas (12:12):

That’s interesting. One of the things I think influenced my grandmother the most was, uh, the Great Depression.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:18):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (12:19):

And so, she was… I’m trying to think of how old she would have been. Just becoming an adult right-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:23):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (12:23):

… in the Great Depression.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:24):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (12:24):

So, coming into her own and thinking about marriage and kids and-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (12:29):

… it was a really difficult time. So, that was a presence in our house.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:31):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (12:32):

We heard a lot about that. And the other thing that was a presence in our house, um, I had a great-grandmother who I loved dearly-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:38):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (12:38):

… who barely spoke any English. She spoke Armenian.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:41):

Oh, wow.

Jackie Krasas (12:42):

And so, they would talk about the, quote unquote, old country. It was before the genocide, but they fled as things were not doing so well.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (12:49):

And so, my Nanny, as I called her-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:51):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (12:52):

… was just a- another great force and it was a funny story, I always thought my Nanny was really religious-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:59):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (12:59):

… because she would always read the Bible.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:03):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (13:03):

And it wasn’t till I was in my 30s that I realized that was the only book she had written in Armenian.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Oh, wow.

Jackie Krasas (13:09):

So, she would read it-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:09):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (13:09):

… over and over again. Uh, like, today, I’m sure you could get books in Armenian-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Whatever you… Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (13:13):

… without a problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Wow.

Jackie Krasas (13:17):

But in those days, that’s what she had.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Things we take for granted now.

Jackie Krasas (13:17):

Yeah, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Well, and what a great lineage to have-

Jackie Krasas (13:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:20):

… your great-grandmother, you know, to have memories of your great-grandmother and your grandmother. Wow, that’s incredible. So, it sounds like both of them really influenced you and how you think about leadership. Did that influence your interest in women and gender studies? (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (13:34):

No, actually, it didn’t.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:35):

Oh.

Jackie Krasas (13:35):

I went to an all-girls high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:36):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (13:37):

And I think that had a little bit to do with it, but really-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (13:41):

… I don’t actually think it was until I went to work in the industry that I-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (13:46):

… started to really observe. So, when I was at Lehigh University, yes, I observed it was one quarter women at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:53):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (13:53):

I would say, too, that I was in chemical engineering, so there were really very few-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:57):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (13:58):

… women in that, and I noticed that a little bit. I guess I didn’t think too hard about it.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:02):

Sure. I don’t wanna read into this. When something’s part of your lived experience, you don’t always notice it.

Jackie Krasas (14:07):

Sure. Well, it’s like when we teach sociology-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:08):

Right. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (14:09):

… we always tell the students, you know, it’s like being a fish in a fishbowl.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:12):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (14:12):

Fish may not-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:12):

May not say it’s water.

Jackie Krasas (14:13):

… observe the water, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (14:14):

Yeah. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (14:14):

You know, “It’s wet today.” So, no, you’re probably very right about that. And then when I went to work in industry, I noticed a lot of things and I tend to be observant, which is a good thing and not surprising that I came out as a sociologist who, you know, studies the world, looks around and-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:27):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (14:27):

… and wants to make sense of it.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

Yeah. So, what were some of those things you noticed?

Jackie Krasas (14:31):

Well, I can tell you one direct story. This was when I was a business systems analyst in, actually, a life insurance company, and I had a boss who was very old-fashioned.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (14:41):

He was a lovely man, and we would tease him about his Nebraska football team. But I had a big cubical in the back that was closed off, and there had been a series of weeks where people would come back and think I was his secretary and, now, I wasn’t anywhere near him (laughs). And so, one day I made a mention to him and I said, “Hey, Ed. All these people think I’m your secretary. You better do some publicity and tell them I’m not.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:01):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (15:03):

And he said, uh, “Well, stop looking like my secretary.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:05):

Whoa.

Jackie Krasas (15:07):

And I’m sure I had something smart aleck to say back to him.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:09):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (15:09):

But that was kind of one of those moments, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:12):

Yeah, that’s a, that’s a salient moment, for sure.

Jackie Krasas (15:13):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:14):

And did you respond in that moment or did you walk away, or…

Jackie Krasas (15:18):

I’m sure I just turned around and rolled my eyes.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:20):

Yeah. And you probably had “Marble Jar Moments” in a different context, but these small things that kind of add up to a big thing. So, I wonder, were there those kinds of moments that added up to, “Okay. I’m gonna seriously engage in this work in my career, in my writing, in my scholarship.”?

Jackie Krasas (15:36):

Yeah. I think a, a lot of little moments in the different-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:38):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (15:39):

… jobs that I had-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:40):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (15:40):

… in the, in the different kinds of things that I saw going on. I moved to Los Angeles when I was 23 and, a great place to be a sociologist. So, from Pennsylvania-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:48):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (15:49):

… to Los Angeles, and I loved it. You would see all kinds of different things that you wouldn’t see in suburban Philadelphia.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:57):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (15:57):

And, you know, it was just a magical place to live at the time in many, many ways, and then horrific as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:03):

Mm-hmm. While you were in California, was there a moment in time when you said, “Okay. I’ve learned what I need to learn and now it’s time to study that more intently.”?

Jackie Krasas (16:12):

My last job was working in insurance as a business systems analyst-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:16):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (16:16):

… and one thing that happened, we were working for a company, it was the junk-bond era and the IRS, or, or FBI, or I don’t remember who it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:25):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (16:25):

… but people with badges came in-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:26):

Some e- big entity. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (16:28):

… came with their badges and took away the CEO and put his BMW up on a, a lift and, and towed that away. And so, we were basically locked down from any work-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

Hm.

Jackie Krasas (16:39):

… for several months on end, and I think that being not able to do my job, but having to-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:42):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (16:42):

… come to work-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:43):

You had a lot of thinking time.

Jackie Krasas (16:44):

… led to a lot of thinking-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (16:45):

… and I thought, “Well, this is probably a good time for me to go back to school.” So, I put my applications in that fall-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (16:54):

… um, and just waited to see-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:54):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (16:54):

… you know? And I wanted to stay in Southern California. I really loved it there. So, I ended up going to USC. I visited them and I had just the best visit and talking with the faculty, they were so energized and interesting and-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (17:05):

… before meeting them, it hadn’t been my first choice.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:07):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (17:07):

And looking back, it’s one of the best experiences I’ve had. I lo- I know grad school’s hard and I know it’s hard in lots of ways for people where some folks don’t feel supported and for some people-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:17):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (17:17):

… it’s traumatizing, I was very fortunate and I had a really fantastic, very supportive graduate school experience. I’m still friends with a lot of those-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:25):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (17:26):

My cohort.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:26):

Yeah. And grad school, just as an aside (laughs), I- I’m thinking back to my experience, too, of that communication that you form, the, the people you’re sitting in class with. I was in a cohort, so every class was with the same group of people except for two in our whole two-year program, and so I think back to faculty. And PhD was a little more alone (laughs) in that we’re kind of on our paths there, but that community is really critical.

(17:50):

And I just wanna say, I love that you had so much time in industry because I just wonder, this is not something I know, but I wonder if the perception of faculty in their route to the academy has to be: being an undergrad, going to grad school (laughs), getting a PhD. Because I think also, in addition to that expectation, that, again, feel free to tell me if I’m wrong about that, as women, it also feels like this clock of… Particularly if you have determined you want a tenure track position and to stay in the academy, feels like you gotta get ready quickly so that you can write and publish and develop. Just love the time and attention that you really took to discover. Kind of thinking back to the woods (laughs), you know? It sounds like from your, your storytelling that you weren’t like, “I’m gonna do this and then I’m gonna do that, then I’m gonna do…” You just really sat in where you were.

Jackie Krasas (18:43):

Yeah. I think that there were things that I knew. So, for instance, right out of college, I was accepted to a PhD program-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (18:51):

… and I decided not to do it.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (18:53):

I wanted to do some other things. I needed a break from school.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:55):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (18:56):

And I think a lot of students feel that. My own daughter did that, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:59):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (18:59):

She took a few years off before going back to school, which I think is great and I recommend. I think s- a lot of students are afraid to take time off.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:06):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (19:07):

And I think there’s particular pressure these days more than then to sort of march forward and just go beeline to that thing that you’re supposed to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:14):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:15):

And for whatever reason, I didn’t feel that pressure.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:18):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (19:19):

And maybe, you know, being in Los Angeles might have had something to do with it.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:21):

Sure. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (19:21):

You’d go to the beach and-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:22):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:23):

… you know, you would do other things. And so, you were just sort of busy experiencing life.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:28):

Living life, yeah.

Jackie Krasas (19:29):

Yeah, experiencing life in this place that was so very different from where you grew up. One of the things that I, that I worked very hard on as Deputy Provost, it was for faculty affairs, and even in my other roles at Lehigh, was looking at women in STEM in particular-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:43):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (19:43):

… but women faculty, and all of the things happened at the same time, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (19:47):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:47):

Just your career trajectory. And so, there is, I think, a push for people, especially folks who wanna have kids, to sort of match straight through-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (19:56):

… so you can get the kids in and get all of it in-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (19:59):

… before your mother comes and lives with you, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (20:00):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:01):

So, I actually ended up not having all of that happen at the same time, but a lot of us are the sandwich generation-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:06):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (20:07):

… and I think that has an impact as well. You sort of can’t predict what’s going down the pike at you.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:11):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (20:12):

But you know that that time of life is when a lot of big things kind of happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:16):

So, you mentioned Cecilia a little bit, your daughter. So, when did that happen for you and how did you decide it was the right time and-

Jackie Krasas (20:25):

I think I thought less hard about some things at that age.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (20:29):

I’ve always been a bit of an over-thinker, and I’m a planner. But that was not something I thought too hard about.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (20:35):

But basically, I started my first tenure track job at Penn State and I had her the day after I handed my exams in in May.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:42):

Wow. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:43):

So (laughs), a lot of-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:44):

You timed that really well. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:45):

I did. She was a very good kid. She waited right until I handed my exams in. It’s funny, it’s a college town, state college-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (20:50):

… and we had a lot of her little friends who all had May and June and July birthdays-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:55):

Aw. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (20:55):

… so pe- people kind of timing-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

Yeah, faculty members.

Jackie Krasas (20:57):

Ti- Faculty trying to time the kids-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:57):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (20:58):

… for the summertime.-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (21:00):

… which was always funny. It was very crowded with birthdays-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:02):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:02):

… around those times. The weird thing was most of my time there, labor studies, industrial relations, employment relations, it changed names a bunch of time-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:09):

… I was always either the only woman or one of two, and they had also not tenured anybody in about 15 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:18):

Wow.

Jackie Krasas (21:18):

So, there was also a big age gap.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:20):

Right. Gap.

Jackie Krasas (21:21):

So, it wasn’t a bad experience, but it wasn’t one where I felt very connected-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:26):

Sure.

Jackie Krasas (21:26):

… to the folks there.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:27):

And it was a very large place. And also, that helped you not feel connected. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:32):

You have to work a little bit harder.

Jackie Krasas (21:34):

You do. And then even up until right before I was mo- moving to Lehigh, I was still meeting people who… “Wow, your research is possibly connected to mine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:43):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (21:43):

“How do I not even know who you are?”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:44):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:45):

And so, I think in the 10 years that I was there, one of the things that I learned was that I loved to teach, so we’re back to the teacher thing again.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:53):

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (21:53):

And then, you know, Penn State’s a big R1, and I do love-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:55):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (21:55):

… my research. There’s something about the teaching that was very-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:58):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (21:58):

… sort of nourishing.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:59):

The connection that happens.

Jackie Krasas (22:00):

Yeah. And that wasn’t the culture there at all.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:04):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (22:04):

And so, when the job became available at Lehigh, I became interested in it and my attitude is always, “Let’s go see, see what happens. What’s the worst thing that happe-… They offered me a job-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:18):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (22:18):

… and then I have to figure out if I want to take it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:18):

All the re-… Yes.

Jackie Krasas (22:19):

Right? So, I did and they offered me the job and I went there and I think that was when I began to articulate to myself the importance of the kind of teacher/scholar model that we have here.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (22:27):

Right? So, to me, that’s deeply personal-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:30):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (22:31):

… about what I found engaging as a faculty member and what I think helps students flourish.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:37):

Yeah. I’m glad that you segued us there. That’s something so salient to Wake Forest, and when it was announced that you were the new Dean and I was really excited I was on the search committee and, um, was fortunate to meet you early in, in your process and interactions at Wake, but you said, “What especially drew me in to Wake Forest is the devotion to the teacher/scholar model, the strong liberal arts foundation, and, of course, the lived practice of Pro Humanitate.”

(23:01):

So, talk more about what that means to you. That’s a term we use a lot here, and I would love, as you begin this tenure and embrace your role as Dean of the College and Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, I would to know that as a colleague and also, I think, listeners would be curious to understand what that means for you.

Jackie Krasas (23:21):

I’ll start with Pro Humanitate, because what struck me from the interview process, even, was that everyone said, “Pro Humanitate.” It’s in the water-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:29):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:30):

… and it’s in the air and I would challenge any other campus to ask their students and faculty-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:35):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:36):

… even, “What is the motto?”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:37):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:38):

And I think you wouldn’t have a lot of folks who-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:39):

Yeah. That struck me, too, as a new person.

Jackie Krasas (23:42):

Truly. Well, we met early on-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:44):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (23:44):

… and I remember having a nice breakfast with you-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:46):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (23:47):

… and we talked a lot about that kind of stuff. And I think in the ways that I engaged with people during the process, it was very genuine. You know, I grew up doing a lot of service in middle school, high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:01):

I think my education in my family, a lot of it was about giving and caring for others-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:08):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:08):

… in somewhat a concrete way-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:09):

… but also in sort of abstract ways of thinking-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:11):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (24:12):

… of the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:13):

Right. Putting others before self.

Jackie Krasas (24:15):

Yeah. And not surprising that I went into sociology, which is you’re thinking, “How do we made the world-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (24:21):

… a better place?”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (24:22):

“How do we understand it and understand what the problems and social problems and issues are?” And then sort of look for solutions to that.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

Sure. Right.

Jackie Krasas (24:29):

And so, I think that just all really connects for me-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:33):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (24:33):

… into Pro Humanitate.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:34):

Completely agree and also having done a lot of service throughout my life and coming from, most recently from the University of Tennessee where servant leadership is really central there, just reading that, it just lifted off the page for me. It felt-

Jackie Krasas (24:47):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:47):

… very much like a values alignment. And not just words we say. Like, we can see it-

Jackie Krasas (24:51):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:52):

… in action. It’s abstract, which is good in that we all can make meaning of it for our lives. But there’s also some connectivity and we know when it exists-… Sometimes hard to articulate, but we can all recognize it when we see it.

Jackie Krasas (25:06):

Sure. I think servant leadership is the good phrase that links it in.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:09):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:10):

You know, it was in my application.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:12):

But it’s truly where I felt… And I think directing a gender studies program for 10 years is exactly the right place to hone those sorts of skills because we’re very collaborative, we’re mutually supportive. Doesn’t mean we don’t have issues, but handle them in ways that are not hierarchical.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:28):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (25:29):

And so, at the end of the day, a Dean’s a hierarchical position.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:33):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:33):

But I think you can do jobs like the jobs we have in ways that have a non-hierarchical attitude-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:39):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (25:40):

… that you recognize your colleagues’ expertise-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:42):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:44):

… everybody’s expertise. So I don’t mean just your… Well, I… For me, my faculty colleagues, but the staff I work with, I have just lucked out in terms of… And so, I respect their expertise.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:52):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (25:53):

And I wanna make sure that they feel empowered to tell me if they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:57):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (25:57):

… disagreeing with a particular idea I had or a perspective I had, which, you know, so many years into my career as an academic, coming up on almost 30 years, the word Dean doesn’t feel as heavy as it did when you started. And so, I think it’s easy to forget-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (26:15):

… the weight of that word.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (26:18):

And so, the importance of encouraging people to know you’re there for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:21):

Yeah. So, how do you do that? What does that look like for you?

Jackie Krasas (26:24):

I think we laugh a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

Yeah, that’s important. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (26:26):

You know, and I think the other thing is I’m just me, and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:28):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (26:29):

… I’m goofy, I’m silly, I make terrible jokes-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (26:32):

… laugh at myself and then I always have a saying, “Laugh or cry, pick one.” My choice is to laugh and to lighten things up because we do hard and difficult and sometimes heavy work.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:42):

Absolutely.

Jackie Krasas (26:43):

And I think you don’t get through that… And so, my goal is to help everyone around me come through the hard work-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:49):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (26:49):

… and feel good about what they’re doing and feel appreciated.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:52):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (26:52):

Because truly, I’ve only been here two and a half months, I literally couldn’t do anything without them.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:55):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (26:56):

But that’s generally how I feel is the folks who work with me, who don’t have the title-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:00):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (27:00):

… are just incredibly important to the institution and to my own success, which is-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:05):

Mm.hmm.

Jackie Krasas (27:05):

… about bringing whatever group of people I’m connected to, bringing their success.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:10):

Yeah. Truly, their success is our success and the other way around, and so often we unintentionally perpetuate what leadership even is. And we have to have titles as a way to organize things-

Jackie Krasas (27:20):

Sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:21):

… and (laughs), and people and structures and systems, particularly complex organizations, but that creating proximity, even, you know, the conversation we’re having, that’s the point, you know, is for people to understand that-

Jackie Krasas (27:32):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:32):

… you’re a whole human, you have to buy groceries (laughs), you get to have downtime. Bu- It may be limited, but there are things-

Jackie Krasas (27:39):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

… that you wanna do and it does, I think, make the work that we do lighter and even on those heavy days, you know you’re not by yourself. I describe what you described as hard work and heart work, so this notion that we’re going non-stop. I mean, it’s all the time. Even in the summers, you know, our pace changes, but it’s still full. I say full, not busy, ’cause I think-

Jackie Krasas (28:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:00):

… full days really describe what we’re doing. We’re not just meeting to meeting to meet, but to have full days and I agree that it’s teamwork. And when you have to make a hard decision, or you have to make a decision that, you know, is really exciting and life changing, you’ve got people around you, and I think it’s probably safe to safe that’s why we both chose a career that celebrates that and that allows for that, and that we could potentially be in these positions to continue to build upon that teamwork and culture that others built before us, which is also exciting.

Jackie Krasas (28:32):

I think that’s true. I think what I enjoy about jobs like this is the ability to, as I say, push on the institution a little bit-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:39):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (28:40):

… and ge- move forward. What do we envision for the institution? I mean, I have my own thoughts about wh-… I think would be good directions. We’re working on implementation of Strategic Framework at the moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (28:50):

What does that look like? And I think, you know, the idea of being… I know President Wente says, “Catalyst for good,” all the time-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (28:58):

… but catalyst for the process.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (29:00):

And so, I think in a lot of ways, these jobs-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:01):

I love that.

Jackie Krasas (29:02):

… we are of-… The catalyst for moving the institution…

Shea Kidd Brown (29:04):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (29:05):

… forward.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (29:06):

Higher education is weird ’cause universities are simultaneously very hierarchical-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:10):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (29:10):

… and also very flat.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:12):

Mm. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (29:12):

And so (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:13):

That’s true.

Jackie Krasas (29:14):

… they’re strange organizations to work in.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:15):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (29:17):

So, I think being in the position to help move the mission forward and help other folks get to what they’ve envisioned or have the institution move in a way that is-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:25):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (29:25):

… satisfying is a really special part of these jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:28):

Yeah. I’m curious in both what you have observed in this place, and we’ve talked about Pro Humanitate, but also knowing that… And then that you bring a whole wealth of experience and knowledge, what are some of those first things that you’re hoping to accomplish or things that are on your mind as you both have this blueprint of a strategic framework, but also are learning your college and graduate school?

Jackie Krasas (29:56):

Well, a couple of things. So, there’s a lot that we do really, really well.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:59):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (30:00):

We do interdisciplinary work really, really well. We do experiential learning really, really well. And what I’ve observed at Wake Forest is we seem really proud of who we are and we wanna be who we are-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:12):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (30:13):

… and the best version of who we are. From my part, I think we can tell our story better-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:17):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (30:17):

… especially so that students can tell our story. I want them to understand the value of the education that they’re getting-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:24):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (30:24):

… and I’m not sure it sinks in for most people-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Always.

Jackie Krasas (30:25):

… until later in in their life.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:26):

Right. Of course.

Jackie Krasas (30:28):

But I’d like to give them the tools through as they see us move forward, it becomes more concrete to them-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (30:34):

… and they have the language to say, about their liberal arts education-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:37):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (30:38):

… what it means to them, and what it enables them to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s powerful.

Jackie Krasas (30:42):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:42):

It’s transformative. When I first arrived, I remember talking with an engineering professor and the ability to hear, and I’m no engineer, clearly (laughs), but to hear the connections around STEM, but the why. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (30:57):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:59):

So, it was, “We teach engineering, but we’re talking about real world problems that engineers can solve.” And that is a microcosm of the liberal arts education is the why. So, continuing to convey to students, that’s what makes us unique, and that’s what makes us different, and that’s what they need, too, to connect. So, if I’m in a class, and I’m taking physics and I can see how that has a connection to this bigger picture of earning this degree that will then connect to a real world problem, then I’m gonna be much more motivated in that class than I might be otherwise, and that’s really powerful.

Jackie Krasas (31:37):

It is. And I think that our students today especially wanna find that connection, the –

Shea Kidd Brown (31:41):

Right. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (31:42):

… “Why am I doing this?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (31:43):

And I think it’s not true of every engineering program.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:45):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (31:46):

I think we in particular do it really well. I had a chance to spend some time with the faculty over there-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:51):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (31:51):

… and it’s exactly the story.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:53):

Yeah. It’s incredible. And I have a, a special interest. My 14-year-old is really interested in engineering and, of course, right now it’s a, it’s a whole wide world, and it needs to be, but I just keeping thinking about that in the back of my mind of how our engineers are gonna be prepared in a different way than others simply because of that connection to-

Jackie Krasas (32:11):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:11):

… to meaning and purpose.

Jackie Krasas (32:12):

Yeah. What draws him?

Shea Kidd Brown (32:14):

Well, he is the classic LEGO kid. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (32:16):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

So, he has been into LEGO since he was five or six and most recently, we were in Chicago and that was where he wanted to go, to the LEGO store and he found the Pyramid of Giza, which is 1,400 pieces and-

Jackie Krasas (32:31):

Oh my goodness. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (32:31):

… uh, 18-year-old and up and he’s like, “This is what I want.” And I was like, “Okay.” It was the biggest yellow bag he’d ever gotten, so he was really excited. And we got home and he said, “I’m gonna build this in three or four hours.” And I was like-

Jackie Krasas (32:41):

Oh my goodness.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:42):

… in my brain, “That’s sweet. That’s cute,” in my brain.

Jackie Krasas (32:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

I didn’t say it out loud. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (32:46):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (32:47):

I thought, you know, he’s gonna get into it and it’s gonna be a lot harder, and that’s fine. That’s part of the learning process. And the next day, we were still in the summer-

Jackie Krasas (32:55):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:55):

… he texted and said, “I’m finished. Headed to the pool,” and it took him four hours. And so, he loves this idea of building things-

Jackie Krasas (33:00):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

… and doesn’t do a lot of sets anymore. He kind of creates his own thing. But I would think, based on what I’ve watched, mechanical or, uh, even industrial and he recently met an architect, so I think that whole, like, buildings and-

Jackie Krasas (33:16):

Civil, maybe. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Civil. Yeah. But just encouraging him to be curious.

Jackie Krasas (33:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:21):

And right now, he said he wants to be an engineer. He’s said that since he was probably seven or eight. And the same thing you said earlier, just because he said he always wanted to do it, I don’t know that that’s necessarily what he h- will do.

Jackie Krasas (33:32):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:33):

I think it’s important to go to college to learn (laughs) and to be curious, not to just get a degree, and that’s what we’re about, I think, here at Wake.

Jackie Krasas (33:41):

Yeah. That’s great. I mean, so place will model that for him and-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:44):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (33:45):

… our kids are lucky because they get to spend, you know, their childhoods on-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:48):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (33:48):

… college campuses-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:49):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (33:49):

… which I think is a unique-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:52):

Oh, totally.

Jackie Krasas (33:52):

… view and certainly shaped, for my daughter, how she approached college, I think.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (33:55):

And so, when I think of that… This is a huge segue. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (33:58):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (33:59):

When I think of that, I think of our students and what I want them to know-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:01):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:01):

… which is, “Know your faculty.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Yes.

Jackie Krasas (34:03):

So, to my daughter, faculty were just mom’s friends-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:07):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (34:07):

… and she knew all these people who were Professor This and Professor That, and they were sort of, you know… Maybe were not normal people, but normal people.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:12):

(laughs). You are.

Jackie Krasas (34:12):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:13):

Normal’s a setting on a drier, that’s it.

Jackie Krasas (34:14):

(laughs). Normal is a setting on the drier, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:17):

(laughs)

Jackie Krasas (34:17):

And so, I want that for all of our students. I think… Well, when you think of first gen students especially, they didn’t spend their childhoods floating in pools of professors.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:27):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (34:27):

It was… This is a new kind of person for them.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:29):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (34:29):

And I think for most students, a professor is a new-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:32):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:32):

… mysterious-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:33):

Intimidating.

Jackie Krasas (34:34):

… thing. Intimidating.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:36):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:36):

And so, I would always tell s- my advisees, “Just go to your professor’s office hours.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:40):

Yes.

Jackie Krasas (34:40):

“Ask if they have pets and anything.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (34:42):

“Just see them.” ‘Cause most of the time, we’re lonely in office hours. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:46):

Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

You want people to come. You’ve devoted that time-

Jackie Krasas (34:49):

You want people to come. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

… for people to come.

Jackie Krasas (34:50):

So, I think we do a lot of things here that are-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:51):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (34:51):

… really in line with that, connecting the students, um, with faculty, and we say hi touch-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:58):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (34:58):

… all the time, but it’s connection, you know?

Shea Kidd Brown (34:59):

It is.

Jackie Krasas (34:59):

It’s making those little connections.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:01):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (35:01):

And then when you are struggling or when you’re having other kinds of issues going on, then I think those connections are already there for the students to-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:07):

Yes, they’re so palpable.

Jackie Krasas (35:08):

… to trust their faculty that-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:10):

Yeah. And our faculty want those relationships.

Jackie Krasas (35:13):

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:14):

You know, a student was talking to me, a prospective student, and they were asking me… They were looking at a very large state school flagship in another state and Wake and kind of asked me to describe the differen-… Both worked in very large state institutions, and I work in student affairs as a profession, but I believe in, as you know, the campus-

Jackie Krasas (35:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:32):

… is a classroom, and I very much connect with the unique relationships that faculty can gain with students, and I said, “I think a very big difference is the relationship that you’ll have with faculty, that all of our classes are taught by faculty and they want to have that relationship and they wanna engage through scholarship and through research and through global studies, and just through life.” I mean, I was at Smith’s the other day, our newly branded coffee shop on campus (laughs), and I’m watching students walk in with their professors and have coffee, and that’s special. And, again, to your point earlier, students don’t necessarily know it’s special ’cause it’s Wake Forest-

Jackie Krasas (36:11):

Right. It’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:11):

… (laughs) and that’s where they’ve chosen to go to college, but it’s, undergraduate students particularly, it’s just in the water. It’s really cool.

Jackie Krasas (36:18):

It is. Uh, while I firmly believe one can get a really great education anywhere, there’s a different quality to it and I sort of jokingly say about Wake Forest that students would have to work really hard to not have that connection with the faculty. I think it’s in everything that we do here.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:34):

It is.

Jackie Krasas (36:35):

So, I think you can have good experiences elsewhere, but it’s hard for students to find those, I think, sometimes at a much larger institution-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:41):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (36:43):

… where faculty are not rewarded or encouraged to-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:46):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (36:46):

… focus on their teaching. And so, I also think that for us, it’s a real recruiting advantage for faculty.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:50):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (36:50):

That was my experience at Lehigh interviewing through faculty affairs-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:54):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (36:54):

… getting to know the new faculty and they’re saying, “No, this teacher/scholar model is really what attracted me here ’cause I love my research-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (37:02):

… I can do real research here-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:03):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (37:04):

… but I can also be valued for my teaching-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:06):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (37:06):

… which gives me another kind of reward or joy in s-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:08):

Absolutely.

Jackie Krasas (37:09):

… in coming to work.” So, I think that’s an advantage for us, for sure.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:13):

I… Well, I know we could talk probably all day. So, I know as our time wraps up, uh, just a couple more things I wanted to ask you. One is, you’re new to Wake, so you’re only new once (laughs), and this is a really magical time, so I hope that you’ll take it all in and just enjoy it, because I still feel new, but I know that that newness for the campus is wearing off a little bit. And so, what do you want… This goes back to the, “We are humans.”. So, what do you want people to know about you that they may not know otherwise, that they may not read in a bio or they may not experience during a formal address as they begin to get to know you as Dean Krasas?

Jackie Krasas (37:52):

So, often, I think for the most part, unless you’re in our little office suite there, you don’t get to see goofy me.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:57):

Mm.

Jackie Krasas (37:58):

And so, I want folks to know I have a goofy side, which I don’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:00):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (38:01):

… often let out-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:01):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (38:01):

… outside of that office-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:02):

Uh-huh.

Jackie Krasas (38:03):

… but it’s there.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (38:04):

And I love especially goofy movies and-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:06):

Okay.

Jackie Krasas (38:06):

… I really-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:07):

What does goofy look like for you?

Jackie Krasas (38:08):

I mean, I’m a huge Monty Python fan, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:10):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (38:11):

… that’s a, a goofy movie and the fact that I can recite Monty Python and the Holy Grail from the beginning to the end is-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:16):

Oh, wow.

Jackie Krasas (38:16):

… is a talent that I actually have shared with my staff.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:19):

Okay. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (38:20):

(laughs). I think they wanted me to stop.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:22):

Oh. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (38:22):

So, I think that part of it-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (38:23):

… the sort of lighter side, ’cause I think, you know, we’re in meetings, we’re, you know, talking to large groups of people where topics are serious. Not serious in a negative way, but, you know, education, inspiring kinds of things and-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:35):

They don’t lend themself to goofiness always.

Jackie Krasas (38:36):

They don’t lend themselves to goofiness. To me, that’s a important part of my, my life-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:41):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (38:41):

… is to be able to be goofy.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:42):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, have fun. Maya Angelou said, “I mean, you have to believe you’re the funniest person in the world,” and I love that (laughs)-

Jackie Krasas (38:47):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (38:48):

… I love that quote. She has many quotes, of course-

Jackie Krasas (38:50):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:50):

… and having taught here for 40 years.

Jackie Krasas (38:51):

I did not know that one from her.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:53):

But, yeah, that one is one that… I really love this idea, one, going back to what you said about your grandmother and being able to make mistakes and, and not be embarrassed, but also that my story has meaning and it has value and part of your story can be goofiness. So, hopefully we’ll have some opportunities to be goofy together and-

Jackie Krasas (39:09):

That would be fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:10):

… and let people in on that. And then just a final… What are you excited and hopeful about as you think about the future?

Jackie Krasas (39:17):

Oh my goodness. So, there’s a lot. So, I think there’s a real opportunity here in having the sort of two units, both sizeable-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:27):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (39:27):

… the graduate school and the College of Arts and Sciences, and having them under one Dean’s s-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (39:32):

… span and I’m not quite sure what that’s gonna like, but that’s exciting to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:35):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (39:36):

But what are the opportunities it’s gonna open up not just for the graduate students, but I think the undergraduate students as well?

Shea Kidd Brown (39:41):

Mm-hmm.

Jackie Krasas (39:41):

And so, to me, I enjoy the sort of putting pieces of a puzzle together, seeing what we can create.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:46):

Right.

Jackie Krasas (39:46):

And so, you said your son likes to build things.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:48):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Jackie Krasas (39:49):

I think we like to build things, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (39:50):

We do. Like…

Jackie Krasas (39:51):

So, I think there’s a building element to what we do, and so I’m excited to see what we can build together and what kind of nifty things will come out the other side of this that we’ll be very proud about.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:00):

Yeah. And I look forward to what we can build together. I have shared with you that I know that we can do good work together and that’s s- the together, like (laughs), continues to come up over and over and over again and I- I’m just so glad you’re here. We have so much to learn from you and with you and together (laughs) through a very exciting time in the, in the life of the university.

Jackie Krasas (40:20):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:20):

I think this is gonna be a time where we look back and say, “This was the start of some pretty big things,” and so, I’m excited and hopeful right there with you and, and we’ll be cheering you on as we lead alongside one another. So, thank you so much for spending the time, taking a moment away from the chaos to be with me today.

Jackie Krasas (40:42):

Well, thank you. And just thank you so much for being part of the welcoming community that even before I had decided to come, you were instrumental in that as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:50):

Yeah.

Jackie Krasas (40:50):

So, thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:51):

Well, thank you. So glad that you joined me today.

Jackie Krasas (40:53):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:54):

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dean Krasas, and I encourage you to think about what she shared, from the idea of getting lost in the woods, the wisdom of family members around us, making time for fun, the importance of being curious about the next step, and the magic that happens in student/faculty relationships. As you reflect, think about how you can get lost in the best of ways and remain curious.

(41:18):

As always, thank you for listening and I hope you’ll consider your stop, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. You have something to contribute to the world, I kid you not. Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and the heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (41:35):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the university’s Campus Life team. Make sure to give us a follow and stay tuned for the next episode on this show on your preferred streaming platform. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes.

(41:57):

In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest, a faculty member from the Education Department. Until then, I’m MaryAnna Bailey and this was Kidd You Not!

Episode 3: Reflections

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea looks back at the previous two episodes. You’ll hear about how this podcast began and the story behind the team that works towards creating every episode. She also talks about how she has begun to apply some of the things she’s discussed in her day-to-day, what to expect in the next episodes and so much more!

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown: (00:05):

Hey, everybody, it’s Dr. Shea. I’m so excited to just have a break from the first two podcast recordings, just to check in and say thank you for listening in, for tuning in, for giving us feedback. We’ve been off to a great start and it felt like a really important time to pause and give gratitude, but also to share some reflections of what it’s like to send something out into the world. So, I had been thinking about podcasting for a really long time, and quite honestly, didn’t have the capacity or see options, maybe, that existed around doing it. And stars started to align. I talked to an amazing student and he connected me to a few resources on campus.

(00:49):

And one of the things I love about my job is that students teach me a lot, and so, that student helped me to see that it is something that could be done, and not only that, but he could help me. So I really appreciate that. So, first, I just wanna give a big shout-out to Vir Gupta who is producing the podcast, and to the WakerSpace who is creating the physical space and the equipment for me to bring a vision to reality. And there’s certainly a lot of other people that I’ll talk about a little later, but we did a thing, we started a podcast. We invited two amazing guests who said yes.

(01:27):

And so it’s a good time to share today just what I learned and I’m sure this won’t be an all-inclusive list, but as we also get the semester off the ground at Wake Forest University, it felt like there are things that I’ve learned over the last month or so as we’ve been recording and planning that really translate to life and to class and to anything and everything. So I’m hopeful that although the pace of today will be different – it’ll just be me – hopefully, there’s some learning lessons that can come from this.

(01:59):

So, the first thing I was thinking about is, you know, trying something new always feels vulnerable. So when I had this idea, this was probably the spring semester of this year, 2023, and I was meeting with Vir, who I mentioned earlier, and I think we were sitting next to one another at an event and Vir and I had met over lunch and coffee before, but at this particular event, I learned that he produces the University Police Department’s podcast. And I said, “Hey, Vir, I’ve been thinking about this for a long time.” And, and he was like, “Well, you should do it.” (laughs) And, uh, well, that’s easier said than done but once we agreed to do this together, I thought, “Oh, that means I got to do it.”

(02:39):

And so starting a podcast meant that I needed to invite people and even think about a list of who would be included and then begin to invite them. And if I invited them, that meant we had to record. And if I recorded them, that meant we needed to drop the podcast. And so that’s a little vulnerable. That’s putting myself out there in a, a way that is maybe a little bit scary. And maybe it’s a surprise to you because I’m very visible as many of you who are a part of the Wake Forest community know that I’m often out and about speaking in front of crowds, talking intimately one to one with students, faculty, staff, alumni, families, but this felt a little bit different.

(03:21):

So I had some questions like, “Will people listen? (laughs) Am I enough? You know, will it be good? Is it worthwhile?” And so as we think about being vulnerable and trying new things, that’s also the case for starting a new semester at Wake Forest for students who are currently first years or students who might be in a transition period starting their sophomore, junior, or senior year. Or I think about our seniors who may be coming back from studying abroad last spring and there’s slight changes on campus or different people who are on campus. For faculty, it may be teaching a new course. Or we have new faculty here.

(3:57):

So whenever we’re starting something new, I think it’s just important, if we’re feeling this sense of vulnerability, we’re asking those questions of enoughness, as I call it, to normalize that, you know. It needs to feel a little bit scary to do something new. I think that scariness also gives you some excitement, some creativity, but I think we need to normalize that and not expect to fully feel confident when we’re starting new things. So that just felt like something that was important to share with those who are listening. Also, the next thing is connecting to our humanity is easier than we think. So I had the great opportunity to sit across the table from Dr. José Villalba and Coach Dave Clawson who is our head football coach.

(04:40):

And both of those figures are well-known on our campus. And what I learned from that experience is oftentimes, it’s just a couple of questions that get our conversations started and really just being in the moment and leaning into curiosity and having a desire to learn about people. And so as you’re thinking about this, at Wake Forest, our motto is Pro Humanitate, and that means “for humanity.” So as a small part of that motto as we think about connecting to other people, it’s really as easy as saying, “Hey, what’s your story?” or, “Hey, where’s home for you?” or, “Before you were a football coach, tell me about that person.”

(05:22):

And so I think it’s something that as we are making sense of the world, of our own stories, of other people’s stories, that it’s a nice thing to remember, especially across difference. And in our world, we, sometimes just kinda human nature, we gravitate to people who have similar backgrounds or interests, and it’s less comfortable, maybe, to engage with people that we perceive to have a different experience. So when I talked with Dave Clawson, one of the things he said was, “You know, our jobs are very similar.” And I had never really thought of it that way.

(05:56):

And so now when I’m watching a football game or I’m thinking about a complicated issue within my own organization, I’m thinking about what he said and maybe some connectivity to what it’s like to be a coach and how that impacts the work that I do. So, you know, with that second point, I would just encourage you to think about a new connection that you can make this week or next week, maybe someone that you see often and you’ve never spoken to or you’ve never asked them a question. Or maybe it’s sitting with someone different at lunch or going to a different restaurant and talking to a stranger. So, more often than not, connecting to our humanity is easier than we think.

(06:38):

The third lesson that I learned over the last several weeks is there is such power in stillness, in focus time. In our chaotic lives, we are often go, go, go all the time. So for students, it is class time and then wrestling with how to not keep ourselves busy (laughs) when we’re not in class. Or for faculty, when you’re not teaching, you may be doing scholarship or engaging in research, or a little bit of both. You may be entering students, graduate students. You may have families that you’re also navigating. And so what I really appreciated about and, and I know this will be a theme throughout this process is that we don’t get to just sit across the table from other people without noise and distraction, but just to learn about who they are.

(07:31):

And so how might we create some stillness in our lives over the next, again, several weeks and maybe those several weeks can turn into months and it can turn into a habit, but I am someone who fills every ounce of white space, which is what I call it, on my calendar. And so even for me to not look at my cellphone when I’m recording or to not be distracted by email and the everyday things of the world. To take 45 minutes to talk to someone across the table has a great gift and has translated into other ways that I might include stillness in my life.

(08:08):

The last thing, and I said last, I mean, there are probably many other things that maybe I’ll take some moments of reflection throughout the life of the podcast, but this one seems really salient, is, it takes a team. Not a concept you’ve never heard before, but anytime you do something new, it takes more than you. And once you put multiple people in the room, they begin to speak into a lot of different ways in which you might approach a topic or the guest that we invite or how we show it on social media and when we drop the episodes. And so I mentioned Vir Gupta at the very beginning. So Vir has been a great partner on the technical side, but also, he’s a current student.

(08:50):

So when he looked at me and said, “Of course people will listen, Dr. Shea,” that gave me the confidence to put this out into the world. And so lots and lots of gratitude to Vir. Vir is a current RA here on campus and very well-known and appreciated by many, including me. I also wanna thank my assistant, Debbie Mason, who helps with scheduling and helps with some of the logistics. And also, I would connect to that category, Abigail Brumfield and Gretchen Castelloe who are just all-star team. So Abigail is Director of Strategic Initiatives and Gretchen is our Campus Life Fellow who has just joined our team, a recent Wake alum, and really helping me to think about the arc of this work and the whole academic year.

(09:39):

And I have a lot of ideas, that is a blessing and a curse (laugh), and so having a team around you who can say, “Okay, what’s the realistic timeframe? When do we need to drop episodes?” Because, you know, I might say, “We can do it every week,” and they, their eyes get big and say, “Well, maybe it’s every other week.” And so for now, it’s every other week and, hopefully, we’ll get into a rhythm that makes the most sense for our audience and for me. So I really appreciate the teamwork. And the podcast is just one example of team and the power of that. And as you apply it to your own life, think about ideas that you have and maybe just say them out loud like I did because there may be someone sitting next to you who says, “That’s a great idea. You should go for it. Have you thought about this? Might you consider that?”

(10:26):

And also, you don’t have to do it all by yourself. You don’t have to lift the load by yourself. So if you’re in a student organization or you’re working on a peer review journal, all of those things take teamwork. In my own job, in my life, I can’t think of a single thing that I do alone or on an island. And so just remember that power of community and connection. So I have a lot to think about. I have a lot of gratitude and, you know, it’s something new. And I really welcome your feedback and your input on guests and things that resonate with you and things that you might consider or questions that you have. I really believe in the power of living in the questions.

(11:14):

So a lot of times, we like to live in the answers, we like to be very certain about our lives and our opinions, but I think it’s actually the questions that lead to more questions that lead to more questions. And then there’s clarity that comes eventually from that. And continue to ask important questions in your own life on podcasts or both. And think about these four things that I mentioned and how they might apply to your life. And in the meantime, we’ll be getting creative and innovative about our next guest. We’ll take a bit of a pause over the next two weeks and then you can expect us to drop the next episode in a couple of weeks. So thank you again for listening to Kidd You Not and for leaning into our shared humanity.

Mary Anna Bailey (12:03):

Episode 2: Dave Clawson

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In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Dave Clawson, who serves as Wake Forest University’s Head Football Coach. You’ll hear about how Coach Clawson uses some of his learnings over the years to teach his players, how his childhood and family have influenced who he is today and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown (00:00):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes, we observe one another from a distance. But it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title. Kidd You Not is also, of course, a play on words, given my last name, Kidd Brown. Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

(00:45):

For this episode, I am interviewing my colleague and friend, head football coach for the Wake Forest Demon Deacons, Dave Clawson. Before we jump in, I have to tell you a little bit about Coach Clawson as he heads into his 10th season as head football coach. Under Coach Clawson’s leadership, the Demon Deacons defeated Southeastern conference representative, Missouri, 27 to 17 in this past year’s Union Home Mortgage Gasparilla Bowl in Tampa Florida on December 23, 2022. The win marked Wake Forest’s fifth bowl win in the last seven years since the Deacs began the Atlantic Coast Conference second-longest bowl streak, back in 2016. The streak of seven straight bowl appearances is tied for the 10th longest in the country. Clawson’s five bowl victories, which is the most in school history, ranks tied for fifth in ACC history for post-season wins.

(01:41):

In addition to this amazing resume, he is passionate about the academic experience, the performance of his players, and he’s committed to leadership development. He truly instills the importance of teamwork on and off the field. He’s also a dedicated father and spouse. And we get to talk about all of this and more during this conversation. Let’s jump in. Well, welcome.

Dave Clawson (02:06):

Well, thanks for having me on.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:06):

I’m really, really excited that we get a chance to connect. You and I have had a lot of conversations, you know, getting to work together with the team and things like that. But, you know, when you ask a head football coach of a college, you don’t know if they’ll say yes. So, I’m really, really, excited to have you here today with us. And as I mentioned, it’s a brand new podcast, so our goal really is to connect around our humanity. You know, we know Coach Dave Clawson from afar. I know you a little bit closer up, but the goal really is to help students, faculty, staff, others, fans, you know, who are interested, who say, “Yeah, I know Coach Clawson.” But do they? Do they really? (laughing) I don’t know, do they really know you? So-

Dave Clawson (02:51):

After the podcast, they may say they know me and they don’t like me.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Probably.

Dave Clawson (02:52):

So, that’s that’s al-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

We’ll see how that goes.

Dave Clawson (02:52):

That’s always the risk of doing these things.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Yeah, that’s right.

Dave Clawson (02:52):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Well, you know, there’s risk and hopefully great reward from vulnerability. So, like I said, I’m grateful we’ve had opportunities to work together. And I’m excited to connect even more today. You know, key moments have shaped your life, surprises, maybe, about what drives you, what has gotten you to this point. And just want to say how grateful I am to get to work alongside you. I’ve learned a lot about leadership and just about the human side of this work. And as you know, my brothers are both football coaches, so I really am a self-proclaimed football nerd, let’s just say. But I have deeper respect for you, and I’m so grateful that we have you here on our campus.

Dave Clawson (03:35):

Thank you. And the feelings are mutual. You’ve brought a lot of energy to our campus and your ability to include our football team and make the community more inclusive for them. I think they can feel a difference that… You know, I think every year I’ve been here, I just feel like our football team and our student athletes are more embraced by the overall university community.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:56):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (03:56):

And that’s where your role is critical. So I think, we have similar jobs and similar motives and goals – vehicle of how we use our positions-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

How we get there.

Dave Clawson (04:05):

… to get there are different. But I think our endpoints and where we want to get to are very similar.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Yeah, I agree. And it’s so much fun. I was telling a colleague, just yesterday actually, how I texted you after the Florida State game. I don’t know if you remember this, but-

Dave Clawson (04:18):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:19):

… we had a big win. And I was excited and sent you a note. And you responded right away. And then, the next day, I was on campus and I had a friend in town. And I was taking her through all the places. And the pit, of course, was a stop that I made. And the team was there. And so, I not only waved but I talked to each of them, ’cause I had just been with them a few weeks prior, you know, to the start of the season. So, I appreciate it. I think that’s mutual that certainly I’m interested in them as people first and as students. And I know that you have that same interest. And so, I don’t often think about our work similarly, but now I will. So, shall we get started?

Dave Clawson (04:55):

Yeah, let’s get going.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:57):

All right. Well, anytime I’m talking to people, I really like to start from the beginning. I think our stories really ground us and connect us. And so, I wanna go, like, way back, before you were Dave Clawson, head coach of Wake Forest University football. What was your childhood like? What was growing up like? I know you were born in New York. Did you grow up in New York?

Dave Clawson (05:20):

I was born in, uh, Lewiston, New York, right near Niagara Falls, New York.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:24):

Oh, wow.

Dave Clawson (05:26):

And my dad, who was the first person in his family ever to go to college-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:29):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (05:29):

… his entire family worked for the steel mills in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. You know, he went to work for the mills after high school, and then went to college, and then went and worked in the mills, and had a chance to go to this company in Niagara Falls. And Niagara Falls has the power plant.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:44):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (05:44):

And my dad worked in a very energy intensive business. They made carbon graphite rods, which sold to the steel companies.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:51):

Wow.

Dave Clawson (05:51):

So, he worked there, and that’s why I was born in that area.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

Where you were born.

Dave Clawson (05:56):

And then, when I was five years old, he got promoted to… It was in St. Marys, Pennsylvania, which is very, very rural.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:01):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (06:02):

And then, we lived there for seven or eight years, and then we moved… He got transferred back to Niagara Falls. You know, that’s where I ended up going to high school, and that’s where my family lived throughout my time at college.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:11):

Okay.

Dave Clawson (06:12):

So, it’s a good place to grow up, right near the Canadian border.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:16):

Cold.

Dave Clawson (06:16):

Extremely cold.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:17):

(laughs)

Dave Clawson (06:17):

People always say, “Where are you from?” And I never say New York. I say I’m from Western New York.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:22):

Mm-hmm. ‘Cause that’s specific.

Dave Clawson (06:23):

It’s a little bit more Midwestern, in terms of the attitude-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:25):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (06:25):

… of the place.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:26):

What was the attitude?

Dave Clawson (06:28):

Well, being in Bowling Green for five years, one of the things, as a football coach, I worked at nine different schools.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:33):

Right.

Dave Clawson (06:34):

So, I’ve not just been able to experience working at different universities but experience different attitudes and almost different cultures-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

Cultures.

Dave Clawson (06:42):

… of the deep South to the new South to the Northeast to New England.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:48):

Right.

Dave Clawson (06:48):

And the Midwest is extremely friendly. The pace is a little slower than the Northeast. But I found the people there very genuine. And that was my experience growing up.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:59):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (07:00):

But I think we’re close enough to New York, and maybe it’s the cold weather-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Right.

Dave Clawson (07:03):

… that I… So, it’s Midwestern with a little bit more of an edge.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

Yeah. (laughs) That makes sense.

Dave Clawson (07:07):

Yeah, that there’s an edginess. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Maybe a grit too.

Dave Clawson (07:11):

… a grit and a toughness to it.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:12):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (07:12):

And at times, you know, and I think part of it is where you grew up, that it was really a bedroom community for a lot of the Niagara Falls plants.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:18):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (07:18):

So, a lot of my friends growing up worked in, uh, labor-intensive industries-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:24):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (07:24):

… whether it be a plant or… I worked at a garbage dump, a landfill for nine years.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

Wow.

Dave Clawson (07:30):

And I did every job you can think of, from being a garbage man to painting containers to… Once I was put inside of a garbage container at a restaurant. My job was to scrape out all the maggots-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

No way.

Dave Clawson (07:41):

… in the container, and to disinfect it. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:43):

That’ll teach you a lot.

Dave Clawson (07:44):

Yeah. It, it makes you grateful for the opportunities you have. And I appreciate that I got to do that. Part of that was to help pay for my college, that my parents were very supportive of going to school. But they said, “If you’re gonna go to…” You know, I went to a, a private school.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:58):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (07:58):

And that, you know, “We’re willing to sacrifice as long as you’re willing to do your part.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (08:01):

And so-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

That’s such an important lesson, especially at that age to learn that.

Dave Clawson (08:04):

Yeah. And so, when I was in school, in college, uh, I never missed a class. Because, in my mind, I helped pay for the class.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

That’s right.

Dave Clawson (08:11):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

And it’s gotta be worth their while and your while, while you’re there. Now, do you have siblings?

Dave Clawson (08:15):

I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:16):

Okay.

Dave Clawson (08:16):

I’m the oldest of four. I have a, a brother, who’s three and a half years younger than me. And then, I have two sisters that are seven and 11 years younger. And they all live in Charlotte.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:28):

Okay. Oh, nice.

Dave Clawson (08:28):

So, that was one of the attractions to this job-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (08:30):

… was to be close to family. And to be very frank, it’s one of the reason that, you know, I’ve wanted stay.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:35):

Yeah, that makes sense. And that tells me a lot. Birth order tells you a lot about a person. So you’ve been-

Dave Clawson (08:39):

I am-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:40):

… a leader from the beginning. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (08:42):

… type A, uh, OCD, you name it. Every affliction of a first-born, I have.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:47):

Hey, let’s not say affliction. (laughing)

Dave Clawson (08:47):

But it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:50):

But it shapes you. I mean, when you talk about growing up where you did, and moving multiple places shapes a person. And then, doing the jobs you did. So, where did sport come into play?

Dave Clawson (09:01):

My dad played junior college basketball. And my dad was a, a very good baseball player. And it’s just, back then, how you grew up, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (09:07):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (09:07):

We didn’t have cellphones and we didn’t have playgroups.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:09):

All the distractions.

Dave Clawson (09:10):

You’d get with your neighborhood friends, and you play pick-up baseball in the summer.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (09:15):

And you’d play pick-up tackle football, and pick-up basketball. And, you know, you played football in the fall, you played, uh, basketball in the winter, and you played-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:23):

Baseball in the spring.

Dave Clawson (09:24):

… in the spring and the summer. And it’s just what you did, and it’s how you made your friend groups.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (09:27):

Back then, we didn’t have to specialize. I think it’s really-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:30):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (09:30):

… unfortunate now that 8th and 9th grade-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:32):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (09:33):

… they feel if they don’t pick one, they’re falling behind. But one of the reasons I ended up picking Williams is they told me I could play two sports.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:40):

Oh.

Dave Clawson (09:40):

So, I played-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:40):

I didn’t realize that.

Dave Clawson (09:41):

… football and basketball there.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:43):

I know you were a defensive back. What did you play in basketball?

Dave Clawson (09:46):

I was a, a shooting guard at Williams. I had a lot more success with football than basketball. I even think that’s positive-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:53):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (09:53):

… that, in basketball, you know, I wasn’t a starter. I didn’t maybe get the playing time that I wanted. But I learned the role of being a good team member.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:00):

Absolutely.

Dave Clawson (10:01):

And e-even in failure, there’s, there’s lessons. And I don’t wanna say it was failure. You know, you don’t always get what you want.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:08):

Right.

Dave Clawson (10:08):

And then, you gotta make the best of it and be supportive of the other people. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:12):

Right. It’s, I think of it as, it’s failure if you don’t make the best of it or if you don’t think about those lessons that you just talked about.

Dave Clawson (10:19):

Yeah, and that all goes back to the old idea of a, a growth or a fixed mindset.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Right. Right.

Dave Clawson (10:22):

And if I want the players on our team right now who are scout team players or backups, everyone has to embrace their role.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (10:30):

And I probably didn’t do as good a job of that when I went through it in the beginning. I was probably a little better on the backend. But that’s part of the growth process-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:38):

It is.

Dave Clawson (10:38):

… we all through.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:40):

Exactly. And someone along the way, helping, shepherding that. So, did you see yourself as a coach while you were in college? Or how did that… ‘Cause you’re a political economy, is that-

Dave Clawson (10:50):

I was a political economy major, which, again, it was the 1980s, right? Wall Street-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:55):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (10:55):

… Michael Douglas, greed is good.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:57):

(laughs)

Dave Clawson (10:57):

And it was a time that it just seemed like everybody was going to Wall Street-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (11:02):

… and making a lot of money. And quite honestly, when I went to Williams, I, it was probably my intent-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (11:11):

… is I’m gonna go there and-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:11):

And reflecting on your background, you know. How do you, sort of, think about, what we tend to think about at that age is these really concrete examples of what success looks like. And success often looks like money.

Dave Clawson (11:23):

Yeah. And w-when you’re at a school that there are people who come from different backgrounds and from some wealth, right, it’s hard when you’re that age-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:31):

Right.

Dave Clawson (11:31):

… to maybe not desire that a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:33):

Absolutely.

Dave Clawson (11:34):

But to some degree, you almost get turned off by it a little bit.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:37):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (11:37):

And I think towards the end of my playing experience there, just the idea of not being part of a team.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:44):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (11:45):

And so, this whole thing started out my senior year in college, this is something I thought I would try.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:50):

Coaching?

Dave Clawson (11:51):

Coaching.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:52):

Okay.

Dave Clawson (11:52):

Again, I, I just thought this would be a little diversion.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

(laughs)

Dave Clawson (11:54):

I’ll do this for a year or two and then I’ll go to law school or business school.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:57):

Right.

Dave Clawson (11:58):

And, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:59):

Get that itch out of your system and move on.

Dave Clawson (12:01):

Yeah. And 35 years-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

Wow.

Dave Clawson (12:02):

… later, I’m still trying it.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:03):

Yeah, and quite good. ACC coach of the year 2021. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (12:07):

Well, again, it’s, the longer you do this the more you realize how many other people are responsible for your success.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:14):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (12:14):

Been fortunate. I had an athletic director once tell me, “You know, the best thing you do is you hire well.” I don’t know if he meant that as a compliment, but I certainly took it-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:23):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (12:23):

… that, I think, when you surround yourself with good people, uh, that have similar value systems and are like-minded and want the same things-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:30):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (12:31):

… that synergy becomes such a positive environment to coach in and to work in.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:34):

Totally.

Dave Clawson (12:35):

And it makes a positive-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:36):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (12:36):

… for the players as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:37):

Well, and that’s a team aspect too. Right? Like everybody doesn’t do the same thing on your football team right now, because you need different perspective. I mean, that’s how the game is made. But, you know, that’s what you need. And I think that’s a great leadership lesson too. And I think about that, certainly, with my team. I say, “I have some ideas.” (laughs) But when we get together and we start bouncing ideas off of one another, that’s when the magic really happens.

Dave Clawson (13:00):

Yeah, anybody who’s in a leadership position has to have somewhat of an ego, right? ‘Cause you believe that you can get people to go to a place-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:09):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (13:09):

… because of your leadership, they couldn’t go without you. Where I, at times, see the ego getting in the way is when people reject better ideas-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:16):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (13:17):

… ’cause it’s not their own.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:17):

Because it’s not theirs.

Dave Clawson (13:18):

I learned from other head coaches I worked for that the strengths of a leader is to take somebody’s idea, if it is better than yours, and recognize it’s better than yours.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:26):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dave Clawson (13:27):

And give the person credit who came up with the idea.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:30):

Absolutely. And I mean, it’s humility. What I’m hearing you say is, that’s, to me, a special sauce that, if we realize that, that we don’t have to have all the answers. I mean, I think back to, and I’m sure you remember this, ’cause it was only a year ago, everyone in Winston remembers this. But we had a chemical plant fire. Week three on the job for me.

Dave Clawson (13:47):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:48):

And so, that was not the time to say, “Well, you know, I think…” I had no idea. You know, it’s not even like I had a small idea. I’d done a lot of crisis, but I… Environmental crisis I was never a part of. And at that time, I didn’t even know where north was, much less, you know, how to put this out. But we have an emergency services manager. We have many people who are skilled in, in environmental science. And that was an early humble moment, here at the university, that, thankfully, from years of training, it wasn’t like, “Oh, I need to be humble.” It was just kind of a natural, there’s lots of smarter people in the room than me right now, so let me lean into that. And I think it resulted in bringing us together. We didn’t get everything right in that moment. But we relied on one another, and we have to do that every day in both of our jobs.

Dave Clawson (14:33):

Yeah, and it’s providing the structure and the organization that lets the best ideas come forward.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:37):

Right. When I was in your office, you showed me leadership books. And you shared that you kind of bring a cohort of players along, I guess, annually, every academic year, every semester. So, just curious what some of your favorite reads or some of the favorite lessons you’ve learned about leadership.

Dave Clawson (14:53):

Well, it struck me somewhat early in my head coaching career. So, this year will be my 24th year as a head coach. And it was, I wanna say, between my maybe sixth and seventh or seventh and eighth year that we had a, a really, really good football team at the University of Richmond in 2005. And we had really, really strong leadership, and some guys that really stood up, and at times took unpopular stands that benefited the whole group. And then, the following year, we probably were as talented as a football team but didn’t have as good a record.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:23):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (15:24):

And my feeling was the leadership wasn’t as good.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:27):

Wow.

Dave Clawson (15:27):

And, you know, in football, we train everything. You know, we have different ways of training the upper body-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:32):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (15:32):

… the lower body, conditioning, how we learn plays. And if so much of your ability to go from average to good or good to great is tied to your leadership, why are we leaving that to chance?

Shea Kidd Brown (15:42):

Right.

Dave Clawson (15:43):

We need to have a program that develops leadership-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:46):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (15:46):

… so that there’s a consistency with how we’re developing that, no different than how we develop strength-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:51):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (15:51):

… or how we teach-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (15:53):

… schematic football.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

Right. Or think about nutrition or whatever it may be.

Dave Clawson (15:56):

Right. And at the time, at the University of Georgia, Mark Richt, who’s doing this, listened to him in a clinic or read it in a book, about how he was doing this leadership development program.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (16:05):

And it basically was a way of teaching your freshman certain things. I think with freshman, it’s getting them to just not make the critical mistake.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Right.

Dave Clawson (16:14):

They’re gonna make mistakes.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:15):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (16:15):

Let’s just not make the big ones-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:16):

Right.

Dave Clawson (16:17):

… that ruin their life.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:17):

High risk.

Dave Clawson (16:18):

And then, as a, a sophomore, it’s how to be a good follower. And then as a junior, you start introducing leadership techniques. And then, their senior year, that’s when they have to be high-performing leaders. So, we started this whole program that was sequential.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:32):

mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (16:32):

You know, it was a 101, 202, 30-whatever.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:35):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (16:35):

And we started doing that. And we had a really good football team. And I took that same model to Bowling Green. And it helped as we developed. And now, we do something somewhat similar here, but college football has changed.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

All of it. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (16:48):

Um, and so, whole idea of you have guys for five years doesn’t exist.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:53):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (16:53):

And so, now what we do is we basically have the team elect a cohort of leaders, what we call the leadership committee.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:00):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (17:00):

And I make sure they represent every class, so we have freshman, sophomore, junior, seniors.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:05):

And how many?

Dave Clawson (17:05):

Usually somewhere between, you know, 15 to 20.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:08):

Okay.

Dave Clawson (17:09):

And we make sure every position group is represented, we make sure every year in school is represented on both sides of the football. And what we’re trying to do is develop our leadership, our core values. We get them to speak their value systems and get comfortable with that.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:25):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (17:25):

And almost every captain we’ve had on our football team has-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:28):

Went through.

Dave Clawson (17:29):

… been in that group for three or four years.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:31):

Wow. That says a lot.

Dave Clawson (17:32):

And I think that’s one of the reason that we’ve had consistency in our program-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:35):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (17:36):

… is we don’t always have a great team but we’ve always had pretty good leadership that maybe allows the four win team to become a seven win team.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:43):

Yeah. Got character too, you know. So, it kinda, it’s both of those things that I’ve just watched in my limited time that you’re, you’re teaching. I’ve had the privilege of sitting in a, a 101 class before school started. And while you’re going through plays, I’m also hearing you teach about what it means to gi- be the person. Um, and that was the whole team.

Dave Clawson (18:02):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:02):

But I know that this group is a much more intensive program.

Dave Clawson (18:06):

We take different books, and I’ll take a different book every year. And I try to, to have the book tie in to where I feel we are as a program.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (18:13):

Okay, what’s that little missing element-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:16):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (18:16):

… maybe that this team needs?

Shea Kidd Brown (18:17):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (18:18):

And it’s been a whole range of books. But one of the book that I, I really read earlier and it was recommended to me by Lloyd Carr, who was the head coach at Michigan-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:27):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (18:27):

… for many years, coached Tom Brady, “A Contrarian’s Guide to Leadership.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:30):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (18:31):

And basically, it takes all these leadership myths about the leader being somebody who is, pounds his fists on the table-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:38):

Right.

Dave Clawson (18:39):

… and is this authoritarian-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:41):

Mm-hmm. Always at the top.

Dave Clawson (18:42):

… top, and really takes these myths and says, “No, that’s not effective leadership. Leaders wanna take their time and make well-thought-out decisions.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:50):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (18:50):

And at a certain point, you have to make a decision, because not making a decision is making a decision.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:56):

Right. That’s absolutely true.

Dave Clawson (18:56):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:57):

And that communicates something too.

Dave Clawson (18:58):

… a failure of leadership often is just hoping things are gonna work out.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:02):

Right.

Dave Clawson (19:02):

Not making a decision isn’t a strategy. But I think part of it is figuring out, okay, what’s my timetable that I-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:08):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (19:08):

… have to make this decision by, so you can collect the most information possible-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:14):

To make the best decision.

Dave Clawson (19:14):

… to try to make the best decision.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:16):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (19:16):

And, and that was really an interesting book to read. Because, as a young football coach, right-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:21):

(laughs)

Dave Clawson (19:21):

… it’s this envision of Bear Bryant, or Lou Holtz-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:25):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (19:25):

… or this authoritarian-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:27):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (19:27):

… people who led by fear and intimidation.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:30):

Right.

Dave Clawson (19:30):

And clearly, that is not a model-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

That’s not the way.

Dave Clawson (19:34):

… that… I don’t know if it worked back then. And maybe I’m sure that those people had a lot more skillsets than-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (19:39):

… what was portrayed by the media. It’s hard to believe that Bear Bryant, and I know Lou Holtz had incredible people skills. But I think it’s to help shape how you make decisions and include other people. And I think the more you drop that, that ego part of yourself, really the more effective leader you can be.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:56):

Mm-hmm. And it makes it accessible too. So, I think about, if that is your style of leadership, as you said, the sport has changed, and you’re building authentic relationship. If your players are scared of you, you can’t really build, um… Now, they respect you and I’ve seen that, you know. (laughs) And I’ve seen moments where it’s like, “Okay, we’re sitting up straight,” you know. This is a moment that we’re needing to have. But I do think that’s a critical, whether you’re a football coach or president of a university, or the President of the United States, like those are all things that people need to be able to see something reflected back that they could also be at some point.

Dave Clawson (20:31):

I think it’s very important to be very clear of what the value system is-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:34):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (20:35):

… what the standards are, what guides your decision making.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:38):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (20:38):

And there’s times that you’re not sure what you wanna do. And I think at those moments it’s great to have input. I also think, as the leader, you know the direction you wanna take something.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:48):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (20:48):

The quicker you make that known-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Better.

Dave Clawson (20:50):

…better for the whole group.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:51):

Totally.

Dave Clawson (20:52):

So, there’s certain things that are not negotiable in our program.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:55):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (20:55):

You know, if you play football at Wake Forest, you’re gonna go to class.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Mm-hmm. That’s important.

Dave Clawson (20:59):

That’s part of coming to school here.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:01):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (21:01):

If you don’t wanna go to class, you shouldn’t be going to school at Wake Forest-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:04):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (21:05):

… because you’re really wasting your scholarship.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:07):

A lot of… Yeah, a lot of resources.

Dave Clawson (21:08):

You know, and certainly off-the-field behaviors, you know, there’s certain lines that you can’t cross.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:12):

You can’t cross.

Dave Clawson (21:13):

Yeah. And I think our players need to know that. And at the same time, like I said, they’re not gonna be perfect. They’re young people, they’re gonna-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:19):

Right.

Dave Clawson (21:19):

… make mistakes.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:19):

None of us are.

Dave Clawson (21:20):

But we gotta get them to not make-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:21):

The big ones.

Dave Clawson (21:21):

… the critical fatal ones.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:23):

Right. Well, and you said something really important that I don’t wanna miss is their value set. Like they’re developing their value set. I imagine that’s because they have a leader who is sure of his value set. So, what are some of those things that you think about. And this doesn’t have to be a… As it comes to your head, if you were writing down three or four or five, core values, what are those things that come to mind?

Dave Clawson (21:43):

Well, we’re, we share this with our whole football team that our value system and my value system is our faith, for those who choose-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:49):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (21:50):

…to have one and follow one. And we don’t require that.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:53):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (21:54):

But I think, for those of us that have it, it’s certainly a source of strength.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:58):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (21:58):

Our family. We work at a university, the academics and education.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:02):

Right.

Dave Clawson (22:02):

And then finally, our football family.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:03):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (22:04):

And I tell the players that, if football is the fourth most important thing in their life, we’ll have a great football team.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:10):

(laughs) Yeah. That’s not what people would think you would be telling them.

Dave Clawson (22:13):

But setting football fourth-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:14):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (22:14):

… also sets it ahead of video games-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:17):

Right.

Dave Clawson (22:17):

… and social media, and social life.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:20):

It’s still prioritizing.

Dave Clawson (22:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:22):

But there’s other things that come before football too.

Dave Clawson (22:24):

In camp, we don’t practice Sunday mornings. And you know, we always wanna give players time-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:29):

An opportunity.

Dave Clawson (22:30):

… to go to a, a church service-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:31):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (22:31):

… if they choose to. If they wanna sleep in, that’s a personal decision.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:34):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (22:34):

We don’t force those things. And there’s family conflicts. And I don’t mean there’s an anniversary or birthday party.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:41):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (22:41):

But, you know, a, a father or mother, or somebody’s seriously sick or ill, we wanna prioritize those things.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:46):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (22:46):

Our players are able to major in anything they wanna major in here. Because of our practice schedule, there’s not one major at Wake Forest that they can’t do.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:54):

That’s great.

Dave Clawson (22:55):

And I think if you sell that in recruiting, then you gotta come up with a schedule that you’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:59):

Yeah. That allows for that.

Dave Clawson (23:00):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:00):

Yeah. When you said that, I hadn’t thought of this in years, but my older brother was playing football, community college, when my younger brother was born. And they were in camp, so… Or not camp, they were in season. And so, I remember the coach having to let him go a few hours and come and see his new baby brother. So, I think that would qualify maybe as one of those major moments.

Dave Clawson (23:20):

I’d have, I’d have to think about that one. (laughing)

Shea Kidd Brown (23:23):

So, uh, so you mentioned family. You and I have talked about Catherine-

Dave Clawson (23:27):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:27):

… and how she has thoughts about football. (laughs) Or maybe not a lot of thoughts about football. So, what is your family’s, um, how do they interface with your job?

Dave Clawson (23:35):

Extremely supportive. But they don’t live and die with it. You know, my wife grew up mostly in Europe, mostly in Paris. And quite honestly, grew up in a family that didn’t like sports.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:44):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (23:45):

And so, I remember when I first met Catherine, I’d go visit her family, it was the first time in my life I didn’t have to fight for the sports page.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:52):

(laughs) Nice.

Dave Clawson (23:52):

They didn’t read it. And so, it, for me, it’s been nice. The nature of my job, right, everyone wants to talk to me about football.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:59):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (24:00):

‘Cause what I do for a living is what other people have for a hobby.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (24:03):

And that’s part of the job is when-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:05):

Right, and it’s very public.

Dave Clawson (24:05):

You know, people wanna know why you’re running ball, or throwing the ball, or not blitzing more.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:09):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (24:09):

And for me, i-it’s kinda nice and peaceful that when I go home I don’t get those questions.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Right. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (24:14):

She wants us to win.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:15):

Of course.

Dave Clawson (24:16):

And she’s supportive. And she helps with recruiting. She’s there to provide a great home environment. And she’s very capable herself. I tell people that, if we were making a financial decision, she’s the one that should have kept working. You know, my wife certainly was a lot more successful than I was, at her job.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:32):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (24:32):

But she wanted to be a, a stay-at-home mom and raise the kids. And it’s kinda neat. Now in the backend, she gets a chapter three. So she-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:39):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (24:39):

… worked in finance for IBM. She was a stay-at-home mom. And now, she’s a high school math teacher.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:43):

That’s amazing. And I got a chance to meet her. I recently participated in the women’s clinic (laughs)-

Dave Clawson (24:50):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:50):

… and learned, learned a lot of things. So, it was great to connect with her. And, what about your kids?

Dave Clawson (24:56):

Yeah. The, uh, 24-year-old daughter, who I think would’ve lived to come to Wake Forest, but didn’t wanna go to a school that her dad was the football coach.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:03):

Yeah, that’d be hard. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (25:04):

And so, she ended up going to Davidson and had a great experience there. And she now works in, in Washington DC. And then, my son is a junior at North Carolina School of the Arts.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:13):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (25:13):

My wife grew up much more with an arts background.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:16):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (25:17):

And her family was that way. And so, my son has picked up on those interests. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:21):

Great.

Dave Clawson (25:22):

Yeah. He’s studying sound design.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:23):

Wow.

Dave Clawson (25:23):

And it’s a, a great-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:24):

Such a, such a balanced family. Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Dave Clawson (25:26):

No, it is, I think. And they like sports, and they enjoy it.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:29):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (25:29):

And my daughter is a diehard Wake Forest fan. But it’s been neat for me to get an appreciation of the arts through my wife and my daughter-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:36):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (25:37):

… that I probably didn’t have before.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:38):

Right.

Dave Clawson (25:39):

So, in a lot of ways, through Catherine, I’ve grown as a person.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:42):

Yeah. Well, and that’s the best kind of partnership. That’s what you want is being able to learn and feed off of one another, and to be able to have outlets other than football, you know. I know you don’t have a lot of time for things outside of football, but are there things that you’re able to enjoy or that you find-

Dave Clawson (25:58):

I-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

… fun in?

Dave Clawson (25:59):

The nature of the job is that there’s not a lot of free time.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

Right.

Dave Clawson (26:02):

And when you have young children, which I had-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:05):

Right.

Dave Clawson (26:05):

… for the last 21 years-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:07):

Yeah, all that energy goes to them.

Dave Clawson (26:08):

And again, it’s not an obligation, it was a want.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:10):

Sure.

Dave Clawson (26:11):

Like if I wasn’t working, I wanted to spend time with them. But now that they’re older and a little bit more independent, we enjoy traveling. You know, we certainly have the travel bug and it’s good to get away. And, you know, very simple things. Going on bike rides, going on walks.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:24):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (26:24):

Going to movies. I love reading. Any time in the off-season I try to get through four or five books.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:30):

Wow.

Dave Clawson (26:30):

So, it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

And maybe pick up a new leadership book.

Dave Clawson (26:31):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (26:32):

I usually do one leadership book.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:33):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (26:34):

And then, I’ll try to do one maybe classic work of literature, and then a historical novel, biography, and then you find that one trash book that just is-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:42):

(laughs) We all need that, yeah.

Dave Clawson (26:44):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:45):

Well you’re a history buff, so it makes sense that you would choose history too. So, I wanna go back to when you were talking about the team. And I know last year you focused quite a bit on mindset. And that might’ve been… I was new-

Dave Clawson (26:57):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:57):

… so everything was new. But I think you talked about this when we were talking about the values discussion. But I, I wanna go back to that and just find out what you learned from that experience last year. How did you choose that as a theme? And what might you be looking to this year?

Dave Clawson (27:12):

Well, the theme, and it, a lot of times it comes from the book.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:15):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (27:16):

So that you’ve read the book, “Mindset-”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:17):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (27:18):

… by, uh, I believe her last name’s Dr. Dwerk-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:20):

Dwerk.

Dave Clawson (27:20):

… from Stanford. And for the first time ever, we went into last year, since I’ve been here, with these incredibly high expectations.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:29):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (27:29):

Right? That we had won 11 games the year before, and had been in the top 10 in the country, and finished 14th in the country. And for the first time, since any of our players had been here, in preseason they were suddenly reading about how good they were.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:41):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (27:42):

And the whole idea of Mindset was it doesn’t matter what other people think we are, it is-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:48):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (27:48):

… what is our mindset.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:48):

What we think.

Dave Clawson (27:49):

What is our attitude? And do we have a mindset that we still feel like we have a lot to prove and we have a standard? And we’re gonna learn from our mistakes.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:00):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (28:00):

And so much of it is teaching about the fixed or the growth mindset-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:02):

Right.

Dave Clawson (28:03):

… that if we don’t continue to grow and continue to learn from mistakes-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (28:07):

… and apply those lessons, you lose-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:08):

We’re making the same mistakes.

Dave Clawson (28:10):

We have a saying that, “The journey is the destination.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:12):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (28:12):

You never ever in life reach that point of fulfillment and satisfaction, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

Right.

Dave Clawson (28:18):

I mean, I’m sure when you stared out, you said, “Geez, if I could ever become the vice president-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:21):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (28:22):

“… of student affairs at a major university.” Right? And then you get here and now there’s a whole new set of problems, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Absolutely. Correct.

Dave Clawson (28:27):

So, we wanted our football team to continue to strive, and to not be satisfied, and to have a mindset that we had our own standard. If other people every year said we weren’t gonna be good-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:37):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (28:38):

… and we didn’t buy in to that, then why would we suddenly buy into a mindset that, because of what other people think that we are.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:45):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (28:45):

And, and that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:46):

Works on both-

Dave Clawson (28:46):

… a challenge. And so, it’s, our standard is our standard, and our work ethic and our practice habits. And we will be successful because of what we do and how we do it not necessarily because of who we are that-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:58):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (28:58):

… we’ve suddenly arrived.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (29:00):

And that was the challenge with last year’s team. It was the first team at Wake Forest that every year they’d gone to a bowl game. So, this whole, you know, competitive striving-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:08):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (29:09):

… achieving that we first got here when we weren’t good-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:11):

Right, totally different.

Dave Clawson (29:12):

… these players had had nothing but success.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:14):

Right.

Dave Clawson (29:15):

We were gonna experience failure at some point.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:16):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (29:17):

How would we handle that?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:18):

Right. That’s important. So, what did you learn from using that?

Dave Clawson (29:21):

The season is always the season, and the challenges are the challenges. And I think in some ways, there were great examples of how we applied a growth mindset. Losing the Clemson game in double overtime-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:32):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (29:32):

… was one of the most soul crushing-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (29:35):

… losses I’ve ever experienced in my life.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:37):

That was so tough.

Dave Clawson (29:38):

But the very next week, we went down to Tallahassee and beat Florida State in Doak Campbell Stadium, which is hard to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:43):

Yeah, it is.

Dave Clawson (29:44):

You know, there’s times that I think we displayed our theme of the year mindset.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:48):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (29:49):

And there were other times, late in the year, that maybe we didn’t respond the way I would’ve-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:53):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (29:53):

… hoped. And I do think, at times, maybe the expectations of the season, instead of elevating the team, started weighing them down-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:00):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (30:00):

… a little bit. But I was really proud of the way we finished the bowl game.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:03):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (30:03):

And when you’re somewhere for a while, expectations change.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:06):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (30:06):

And eight wins at Wake Forest, historically, that ties ourselves with the fourth best season ever.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:12):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (30:13):

And yet, we’ve raised expectations in a way that it felt like a disappointing season.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:17):

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Clawson (30:18):

Which is what you call a good problem, but it’s still a problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:21):

I agree. Yeah.

Dave Clawson (30:21):

And, and our expectations were higher. My expectation last year was that we would win the ACC, and be a top 10 team, and win double-digit games.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:28):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (30:28):

And we didn’t achieve that. But now, we’re gonna chase that again.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:30):

That’s right. Well, and you’ve got so many people who are so excited. Um, I was out of town yesterday and saw a Wake hat. And that’s always, you know, it’s a good sign. And you have just an exciting product to watch. And I see it in our students. And, you know, they’re following all of our sports. Had an exciting year in baseball, of course. And so, I appreciate that mindset, because… And I heard you talk about it at the beginning, this was before that season that you just talked about. I think it’s important for people to know that certainly it is plays, and it is players, but there’s so much about the foundation that you’re teaching, the character, the values, all those things that you’ve talked about. As we start to wrap up, I wanted to ask you, like I began, people think they know Dave Clawson. So, what are things that you think, “I don’t know if people get this right about me,” or things that you would just want people to know that maybe we haven’t talked about?

Dave Clawson (31:24):

You know, it’s hard to say that, because the people who know you well know these things about you.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:27):

Yeah, true.

Dave Clawson (31:27):

And then, you’re really saying, you know, how authentically are you different than maybe how you’re perceived-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:33):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (31:33):

… by media or fans? And I’m intensely competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:36):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (31:37):

I mean, I wanna win in the worst way.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:39):

Yeah. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (31:40):

And I think in, in some ways, that we have this structure set up that, when you get into coach or education, right, your motivation to get into it is that you wanna add value to the lives of the people you-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:53):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (31:53):

… surround yourself with. You know, you don’t become a Vice President of Student Affairs if you don’t want to add value-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:58):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (31:59):

… to the campus community-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:59):

Right.

Dave Clawson (32:00):

… and the lives of the students who go to Wake Forest. I think it’s no different for a football coach is that, ultimately, our goal is that we wanna add value to the lives of our players-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:09):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (32:10):

… and help them get to a point that they wanna get to and maybe need our assistance to get there. But it’s hard to do that as a football coach if you don’t win.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (32:18):

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (32:19):

‘Cause that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:20):

That’s the motivation.

Dave Clawson (32:21):

That’s the necessity. And quite frankly, they don’t give football coaches tenure.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:24):

Right. (laughs) It’s true.

Dave Clawson (32:24):

So, it’s, it’s, uh

Shea Kidd Brown (32:26):

It’s part of the expectation.

Dave Clawson (32:27):

Yeah, it’s part, it’s part of the expectation that-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:29):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (32:29):

… if we don’t win enough games, at some point, you’ll be doing a podcast with a different football coach.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:33):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (32:34):

And I don’t want that to happen. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:35):

Right.

Dave Clawson (32:35):

… I think as much as maybe with the press and stuff that I can appear mild-mannered and thoughtful I’m a very, very intense competitor.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:44):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (32:44):

And game day, I mean, I’m just… And unfortunately, the only people I take that out on-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:48):

(laughs)

Dave Clawson (32:49):

… at times are the officials. (laughs) Which, uh, you know, my son and daughter always get on me for that. But it’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:55):

Well, and kids help you stay grounded in those, those moments.

Dave Clawson (32:59):

Yeah. But, I, I don’t think you do what we do if you’re not intensely competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:02):

Yeah, yeah.

Dave Clawson (33:03):

And, you know, so again, we wanna do all these g-greater good, but you can only have that avenue if you’re able to win and be successful.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:11):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (33:11):

And quite honestly, we want to put a product on the field that the university, and the students, and the alumni-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:16):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (33:16):

… and the community are proud of.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (33:18):

And that means winning.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:19):

Yeah. And I will tell you, the word intense is certainly (laughs) accurate. When I met you, we met at John Curry’s house actually. It was a, before I got to Wake, it was a holiday party. And I was talking about football. And you know, you all had had a huge year. And I said something about being a Georgia grad. And you were like, “Know your allegiance.”

Dave Clawson (33:38):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

And I was like, “Okay.” (laughing) So, uh, so I was like, “Yes.”

Dave Clawson (33:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:44):

“Yes, sir.”

Dave Clawson (33:45):

That sounds like me.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:46):

Uh, yeah. So, that was my introduction to Dave Clawson. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (33:48):

I walk across campus sometimes, and I see people wearing-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:53):

Oh.

Dave Clawson (33:53):

… shirts of other universities.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:55):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (33:56):

And I just wanna say, “I will buy that shirt off you and give you a Wake Forest shirt.”

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (34:00):

Represent your brand.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:01):

Absolutely.

Dave Clawson (34:03):

This is your school.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (34:03):

This is your university. How would you ever consider wearing a-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:07):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (34:07):

“… Georgia shirt, or a-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:08):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (34:08):

… Alabama shirt?

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

Abs- And I agree. And I do Milkshake Mondays and you did one with me this year, and Wake Up Wednesdays. And one of my first ones, I saw actually someone with a Georgia sweatshirt on. And I said, “Hey, where do you go to school?” (laughs) And she’s like, “Wake Forest.” And she looks down. And I was like… And so, it’s just kinda my joke now with students. And, and what I’ll say is, if they’re in close proximity, I’ll say, “Come with me.” ‘Cause I actually do have shirts in my office.

Dave Clawson (34:37):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:37):

“Let me trade that out.” So, maybe you and I can, um, partner and-

Dave Clawson (34:40):

I would-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:40):

… have a t-shirt trade.

Dave Clawson (34:40):

… I would gladly do that.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (34:43):

I would sit right on the quad with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:43):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (34:44):

And everybody who’s wearing a shirt, “Get over here.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:46):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (34:47):

And if we get permission from the environmental people here, I’d like to have a-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:51):

(laughs)

Dave Clawson (34:52):

… trash can with gasoline.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:54):

Right. All- (laughs)

Dave Clawson (34:55):

And we permanently get rid of those other shirts.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:57):

Or donate them. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (34:58):

I mean, could you imagine-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:59):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (35:00):

… working for Apple and wearing an IBM shirt to work?

Shea Kidd Brown (35:02):

No. No. And that’s-

Dave Clawson (35:03):

So-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:03):

You know, I wear black and gold most days. And it, it gets in your blood. I believe in this place. It’s a special place. And I know my allegiance.

Dave Clawson (35:10):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:11):

So, thank you for that introduction. What are you excited about as you think about the next few months?

Dave Clawson (35:16):

I think what I always look forward to is watching the growth of individual players.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:20):

Hmm.

Dave Clawson (35:21):

You know, who are the guys that we red-shirted last year, or are in backup roles, or didn’t play a lot-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:26):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (35:26):

… who took all these little nuggets we gave them, applied them, and all of sudden now they become the new name players.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:33):

Hmm. I love that.

Dave Clawson (35:33):

Everyone knew about A.T. Perry, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (35:35):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (35:35):

It’s so rewarding to see him get drafted.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:38):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (35:38):

And we had a bunch of guys go on to the NFL. But there’s a whole nother generation of younger players and we don’t even know who they are.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:44):

Right.

Dave Clawson (35:45):

And watching those guys start to figure it out, learn, having it click, when those moments happen, to me those are all the little wins that add up to the big wins.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:55):

Absolutely. And that’s the why.

Dave Clawson (35:56):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:56):

I mean, it really is. Like if winning only was the reason, you probably would’ve left those first two years. But to be able to see that transformation in students, and that’s what I think about too is the transformative student experience where a student shouldn’t be the same four years later. And not that we want them to be a completely different person, but we want them to hold on to the things that are important to them. But to grow, and to develop, and to live into their potential, I love that that’s what you’re thinking about as you head into work every day. Similarly, I’m thinking about that as I head into work. So, anything else you wanna add?

Dave Clawson (36:30):

No. I love this place. And I tell everybody, all my friends who have children who are looking at Wake Forest-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:36):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (36:37):

… that I can honestly say that this is a place that, it does what it says it will do.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:41):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (36:42):

And I think that’s very rare in this day and age.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:44):

It is.

Dave Clawson (36:44):

And I think you try to do that in your role, and we try to do that our football program, is-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:49):

Mm-hmm.

Dave Clawson (36:50):

… what we say we do we try to do-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:51):

Yeah.

Dave Clawson (36:51):

… and deliver on. And I think Wake Forest does that as well as anywhere I’ve ever worked or or been to school.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:56):

Yeah. Same. And that’s the definition of integrity, when your values and your actions align. And so, we won’t get it right every day. We collectively, but we try. And so, it’s been such an honor to spend some time with you. I so appreciate you and look forward to working alongside you this academic year.

Dave Clawson (37:12):

Well, I’m excited about like our, our t-shirt-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:14):

Oh, we’ve got all kinds of things. (laughs)

Dave Clawson (37:14):

… Thursday or something, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:16):

Yeah. We’ve got Milkshake Monday, Wake Up Wednesday, T-shirt Thursday, I like it.

Dave Clawson (37:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:21):

So, uh, let’s look forward to it.

Dave Clawson (37:22):

Okay. Thanks so much.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:24):

Thank you. I appreciate you.

(37:25):

I so enjoyed my conversation with Coach Clawson, and encourage you to think about what he shared. From growth mindset to values, the importance of hard work and teamwork, there is so much that is transferable to our everyday lives. Thank you for listening. And I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness, and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. You have something to contribute to the world, I Kidd You Not. Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

Speaker 3 (37:56):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life Team. Make sure to give us a follow and stay tuned for the next episode on this show on your preferred streaming platform. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest from our school’s leadership. Until then, I’m Mary-Anna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Episode 1: José Villalba

Listen Now »

In this episode, Dr. Shea sits down with Dr. José Villalba, who serves as Wake Forest University’s Vice President for Diversity and Inclusion and Chief Diversity Officer. You’ll hear about how Dr. V is a four-time University of Florida graduate, what his role means to him in today’s times and so much more.

Transcript:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not. I am so nervous-excited, and yes, that is one word to kick off this new podcast. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes, we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the “why” behind the title. Kidd You Not is also, of course, a play on words, given my last name, Kidd Brown.

Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories, and, yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we’ve found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life.

For the first episode, I’m interviewing my colleague and friend, Dr. José Villalba, or Dr. V, as he’s known on campus. Dr. Villalba serves as the Vice President for Diversity and Inclusion and Chief Diversity Officer at Wake Forest University. He’s been on campus since 2011 and began his career here as a member of the faculty. I hope you’ll love the discussion as much as I did.

Here’s my conversation with Dr. José Villalba.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So, hello.

José Villalba:

Hello.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I’m so excited that you’re here.

José Villalba:

I am too. Thanks for having me here.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yes. And it’s our very first interview for the podcast, um, so I’m excited to have Dr. José Villalba here. And really looking forward to diving into our conversation. I’ve not done this before. Have you done this before?

José Villalba:

No.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay (laughs). So we’re in good company.

José Villalba:

We are.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah, so-

José Villalba:

As usual.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… as we jump in, I really want to start with just talking about the purpose of the podcast. So I feel like in my role, I have a lot to say, but even more importantly, those around me have a lot to say. And we have an opportunity to get closer to each other. We have these titles, but people don’t always know who we are. And so the purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity, so I’m excited to jump in. Um, José, you and I work together quite a bit.

José Villalba:

We do?

Shea Kidd Brown:

We do.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

We’re on the Reynolda Cabinet, and we spend a lot of time thinking about the student experience, but we’ve not talked a lot about you-

José Villalba:

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… uh, specifically. So I’m gonna take us back.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Back, back, back.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

University of Florida, that’s where you did four degrees, right?

José Villalba:

All four of my degrees-

Shea Kidd Brown:

All four.

José Villalba:

… all four in one place. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yes. I’m sorry. As a Georgia grad, I’ll forgive you for that.

José Villalba:

Are we gonna edit that Georgia grad thing out?

Shea Kidd Brown:

We are probably not.

José Villalba:

No. Okay. Got it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Two! Two-time national champions.

José Villalba:

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Back to back. But I want to go even further back than that. So tell me about your journey. You’re a Chief Diversity Officer, Vice President for Diversity and Inclusion, but I imagine that was in you a long time ago. So take us back. How did you get here?

José Villalba:

My journey starts in Miami, Florida. I am what researchers would call a second-generation immigrant.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Uh, my parents were first-generation immigrants. My dad was born and raised in Colombia.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And my mom was born and raised in Cuba. They met in South Florida. And 50 years ago, I’m proof that they made it work. Um, but my journey really started in Miami, just being surrounded by a very multicultural, diverse, representative community-

Shea Kidd Brown:

And did you have siblings?

José Villalba:

I have one sibling.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

But he and I are 18 years apart.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow. My oldest brother and my younger brother are 18 years apart.

José Villalba:

Are they really?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Yeah. And there’s nobody in the middle. And oftentimes, folks are like, “Same parents?” I’m like, “Same parents, same everything.” It was planned. My mom would’ve wanted to have had another child sooner than 18 years, but things didn’t work out health-wise-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… until they did. And we were, in a lot of ways, raised by the same parents, but at different times. I mean, I grew up in Miami in the early ’70s and ’80s, and he grew up in Miami in the late ’80s and ’90s, right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And so we really are sort of a- a- an interesting combination. But, yeah, my DE&I journey starts, you know, identifying with being a Cuban-Colombian kid, being a first-generation college student. It was set in the cards before I was ever born that I was-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

… gonna go to college. My father had a knack for reminding me that he didn’t leave Colombia, and my mom has the same knack for reminding me that she didn’t leave a communist country-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… if it didn’t mean that her children were gonna end up having access to higher education. So I really carry that badge of honor throughout all of my time at UF. Interestingly enough, though, the whole notion of DE&I for me actually starts somewhere around middle school. My mom had an uncle who, rather than coming to Miami from Cuba, ended up moving to Spain.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hm.

José Villalba:

Uh, visa issues and immigration issues. And so he was supposed to eventually meet up with the family. Fell in love with a Spanish woman and never actually made the trek across the Atlantic. And so, when I was in middle school, I spent the summer in Spain with my uncle Berto and my aunt Nutsi. And it was a huge cultural shift for me.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Born and raised in Miami, access to all the Cuban food I want, all the McDonald’s I want, and the fast pace of living in America, right? And my uncle and aunt had a very different lifestyle in Spain. It was that cultural shock of being a fish out of water in a city that had been around for a lot longer than Miami, with customs that were very different from the hustle and bustle of the States.

Shea Kidd Brown:

A big city.

José Villalba:

It really, really changed my life.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. That’s interesting because you probably had experienced culture shock in different ways in the United States as a person who identifies in a minoritized race, but also to go abroad and experience that in a different way.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s interesting.

José Villalba:

And the minoritized space really kicks in at UF-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… and Gainesville. I moved to Gainesville in 1989.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And the benefit of having spent that month in Spain was like, “Oh, so these feelings of insecurity and confusion and fear, I’ve had these before.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

W. Du Bois talks about double consciousness, so feeling this place of inclusivity and exclusivity and sort of navigating the anxiety, is that what you felt when you went to college? Or did it present in different ways?

José Villalba:

That’s a good paradigm. And I definitely felt places in Gainesville where I belonged, right? I was there with everybody else working on some sort of degree. I felt like I belonged at the swamp, go Gators-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… since you threw out the dog thing, whatever that is. And I also lucked out, um, randomly, of course, is life happens in the residence halls. But I got with a very cool group of guys.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And we were very much from all over the place. But we were practicing intercultural dialogue in conversations before-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Before it was a thing.

José Villalba:

… it was hashtag. Yeah, exactly. And so I definitely felt like I belonged in there. However, you know, I use that word intentionally, Gainesville and UF, back then and now, is a predominantly white institution. In 1989, it was a particularly predominantly white-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… institution. I say this to some folks that back in ’89, UF was less than 2% Hispanic, Latino, or Latinx.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

And of course, people are like, “No way. I mean, it’s in Florida.” Yeah, well, it’s in Florida, but it’s not in South Florida.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s true.

José Villalba:

It is…

Shea Kidd Brown:

And that geography really matters.

José Villalba:

Yeah, that geography matters.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Especially when you’re leaving your family, and that’s something that’s really important.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so that double consciousness was, was there. And I think it also manifested in other ways, the whole imposter syndrome that I think a lot of first-generation college students get.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And it’s a big place.

José Villalba:

It’s huge. And it’s only gotten bigger. And, again, you referenced that I got all my degrees from there. I, I got to Gainesville in 1989, and I left in 2001.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And so I saw that place and that university change-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really change.

José Villalba:

… in 12 years. The other thing that’s part of my narrative is that I graduated high school when I was 16.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I did not know that.

José Villalba:

And I don’t recommend that anyone send a 16-year-old-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah (laughs).

José Villalba:

… away to college.

Shea Kidd Brown:

There’s still some formation of the frontal cortex, I hear.

José Villalba:

Mine is still going on.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay (laughs).

José Villalba:

So, so, yeah, it’s perpetual. There’s something about gender in there, but we can talk about that some-

Shea Kidd Brown:

We could.

José Villalba:

… other time.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That may be a different episode.

José Villalba:

Um, but it, it was tough. And so for me, I think probably from a developmental perspective, I knew I needed a close core of folks, check. I knew my parents couldn’t help me ’cause they were very clear in like, “Look, we got you, but we can’t help you when you struggle with [inaudible].”

Shea Kidd Brown:

‘Cause they hadn’t experienced.

José Villalba:

Absolutely not. And so there were a couple of professors who really, I felt, had my back. Couple of TAs who also had my back. But I didn’t frequent any of the identity spaces-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

… at UF.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hm.

José Villalba:

My identity space was 489 Murphree Hall. That was my first room.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Your people.

José Villalba:

And Rawlings Hall, I forgot where my buddies lived, but-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Ain’t it funny how we-

José Villalba:

… that’s a-

Shea Kidd Brown:

… remember the…

José Villalba:

Oh, you definitely remember.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Like, I remember Jones Hall, sixth floor-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… penthouse.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs) We… That was my first year. I moved to the first floor, that spring.. But I remember every semester. And I lived on campus all four years, um, during my experience.

José Villalba:

I did too. And I love living on campus. I guess in some existential way that campus became my support-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

… system. But I did have a couple of professors who, early on, I don’t know that they took a liking to me, I don’t know that they saw a project in me, but they definitely helped me figure out how to study, which I really didn’t know.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

How to be “first-in-line” at the financial aid office.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

How…

Shea Kidd Brown:

Make a friend there.

José Villalba:

How to make a friend there. How awesome it was when your best friend Dennis became a college work-study student in the financial aid office.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice.

José Villalba:

All of those different things are really “what I needed to get,-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… to get through”.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So, were there things in your upbringing that really helped you, given that you didn’t have affinity spaces or you haven’t referenced student organizations? So were there things that your parents instilled in you that you can kind of recall that might’ve helped you navigate that? It sounds like a fairly small circle while you were there.

José Villalba:

Yeah. That’s a fascinating question ’cause I’ve never thought about it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And I wanna say grit, and I wanna say resilience, and I wanna say ganas, which is the Spanish word for motivation and, like-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… kinda being hungry, right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Like, those sorts of things. But I almost wanna say that ’cause that’s what I’m supposed to say.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. That’s our higher ed answer.

José Villalba:

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

But I got a couple of life lessons from my dad throughout my entire life. He passed away four years ago, but he lives in me every single hour of every single day ’cause all of these one-liners have always stuck. And so, for me, there are two that are standing out at this moment. And it’s probably what got me through those tough times. The first one-liner he had, and I learned it early on, was dime con quién andas, y te diré quién eres, “tell me who you’re with, and I’ll tell you who you are”.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

And that tells me who you’re with; I’ll tell you who you are wasn’t referencing adults or, like… it was just, like, your friends. Like, who are your people?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so intentionally and probably happenstance-wise, I got with a really good group of folks. And we were a broader group than just a four or five.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

But-

Shea Kidd Brown:

It probably grew-

José Villalba:

And it grew. As you know, first-year students came in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… and we quote, unquote, “Adopted,” them to the group. But soup to nuts, we were probably a group of around, like, 10 or 12 of us, including guys and, and, and girls, right? And so it was that nucleus that really got me through. But it was always my old man’s, like, “Listen-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm. Hearing that in the back of your head.

José Villalba:

… “y- you pick the good people.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

“They don’t have to be this religion or this color or anything like that, but don’t mess that up.” And that got me through.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Those good humans got me through. And you can see it now how that blends into the folks that I work with and the folks that I’m privileged to work with, and the folks that I break bread with. So that was the first one. The second thing that always stands out, and I’m thinking about it now, and it does make me emotional, is No confundas el susto por el miedo. And you’ve heard me talk about this before.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Don’t confuse being scared for being afraid.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Um, and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s powerful.

José Villalba:

… and early on, as a 16-year-old first-time college student, there was definitely a lot of, like, being afraid of failing.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And then, lo and behold, failing. I remind students who know my narrative, and I teach students who don’t know my narrative I flunk Calc I. Not with a D, not with a D-, but straight up F.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And chemistry came and knocked me on my face; I got a C in chemistry.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Chemistry got me too, but I got a D, not a C.

José Villalba:

Oh, wow. And so I early on internalized that, and that fear of losing my scholarship, that fear of being sent back home. And then in the middle of my, probably sophomore year, reminding my dad, who would always say… first of all, he would say, “You better get those grades up”

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… or you aren’t coming back home. But don’t confuse being afraid and being scared. It’s okay to be scared-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… but don’t let it seep in. So in graduate school, I’m too afraid to go to grad school. Why?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Could be scared. Like, you better put your all into the GRE. You know, you better stay home this weekend to study for that final. But don’t be afraid of grad school.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. And don’t not do it as a result of that.

José Villalba:

E- exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Because that’s what happens to us.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I can only speak for my lived experience; I think early in life there are things that I didn’t do or I was afraid to do because I was afraid of not being great at it (laughs). And so I love that, and that’s something I need to embroider on a pillow or something.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

I mean, it’s, it’s powerful.

José Villalba:

It is.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I think, too, appreciate you saying you failed a class because, again, going to the purpose of this conversation is, like, people see us in these roles today, they don’t necessarily understand the winding road, you know, Sheryl Crow, to date myself, you know? (laughs) Every day is a winding road. And… But every journey is winding, and very few are without bumps-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… in the road. What were other bumps?

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I mean, are there things that you can think of, in addition to the concern about grades, can think of that have also helped you with that not confusing those two?

José Villalba:

Yeah. For me, one of the regular speed bumps was when things would happen at home and I was far away. And feeling like I had somehow tapped out or-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… gotten off easy.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

We had aunts and uncles who had issues with, like, the criminal justice system. And, you know, you would have an aunt who would get sick. And you would hear from your cousins who were all back home-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… or from your friends who knew your family who decided not to go to college or community college. And there was always that element of, like, “Life must be good for you up there five and a half, six hours away, doing whatever it is you college folks do while we’re back here holding the dam.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And I remember a lot of that. And sometimes it was more guilt than I needed-

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna-

José Villalba:

… to feel.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… ask you if that created guilt.

José Villalba:

It did. A- and sometimes, there was defensiveness that came back. It was like, “Well, this isn’t a party, regardless of what y’all think.” Probably for me, biggest hurdle was deciding whether or not I needed to get my Ph.D.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

So I graduated in ’93. Because of that F in calc, it took me four and a half years to graduate instead of four, but that’s okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Just a little victory lap.

José Villalba:

I got there two years early anyways-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… it was fine.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And, and one, one more season of football.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You were still ahead.

José Villalba:

I was still ahead, yes. I was still ahead. And so I get my bachelor’s, I come back six months later to start my master’s degree-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and my specialist degree in, in school counseling. And I’m loving grad school. More time in Gainesville, that was even great.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Whatever, just making new friends, all that cool stuff. And then I finished my degree and I had been really privileged and lucky, and I’d worked hard too to turn my internship at the elementary school that I was with into a full-time job. And that is a hurdle for a couple of reasons. As most Cuban kids from Miami can attest to, if you leave home to go to college, first of all, don’t go too far.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And you’re coming back, right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. That’s the expectation.

José Villalba:

You’re supposed to come back-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… right? And so that job presented a fork in the road. Do I hustle and get a job as a school counselor back in Miami? Which was a hard county to crack into as an educator. Or do I get a year, only a year, mom, only one-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… year.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s what we all say.

José Villalba:

A… Just one year in Gainesville, benefits, steady paycheck.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

I mean, king of the world.

Shea Kidd Brown:

A little ROI.

José Villalba:

A little ROI, exactly.

José Villalba:

And so it’s great. So I decided to stay. The other tension in that decision was I had a little bit of an itch to get a PhD.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay. Did that itch always exist?

José Villalba:

The itch started during commencement for my master’s.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And it’s a moment I haven’t thought about in years but it’s, like, ingrained. I am in the O’Connell Center, which is the a- arena on campus. And I think I’m, like, the end all be all ’cause-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… I’m getting my master’s and my specialist degree. I’ve got three degrees now. My parents are back to where they saw me a couple years ago.

Shea Kidd Brown:

This point, how old? I’m like-

José Villalba:

I was…

Shea Kidd Brown:

… you’re still very young.

José Villalba:

I was 22.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. With three degrees (laughs).

José Villalba:

I was 22 with three degrees.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

And I’m at the front ’cause, you know, they put the graduate students up front at commencement.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

That’s right. But I wasn’t at the front, front, Dr. Shea Kidd Brown.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

There was an empty row in front of me, and on the front, front were the PhD students.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Ooh.

José Villalba:

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

And don’t let me ever lie to you and tell you that I’m not competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

‘Cause that’s just a lie. And I-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Me too.

José Villalba:

… remember thinking, “How do I get on the front row?” And that was the itch. And I knew at that point because I had been in my department long enough, I knew that that would actually mean I would never go back home.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And I’d be lying to my mom and my abuela

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… and my abuelo, and all those people that did-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… everything they could to get me to where I was. I knew they’d be proud, but I also knew they’d-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… be hurt ’cause I was supposed to come home.

Shea Kidd Brown:

But plans change.

José Villalba:

And plans change. And I love that you said that ’cause you remind me that it’s okay that plans-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… have changed. But it doesn’t mean it’s all, like, you know, rainbows and and ice cream.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Well, and it, it required for you, to some degree, giving up that proximity, giving up your commitment-

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… in some ways. And you started with psychology and kept that thread all the way through. Psychology’s a degree that can take you to a lotta different places. Did you know at the bachelor level that you were thinking of counseling?

José Villalba:

Yeah. So there are good stories in there.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

The first story is I only became a psych major because of calculus and chemistry.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

I went to UF to be an aerospace engineer.

Shea Kidd Brown:

No way.

José Villalba:

Yes way.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And there’s a reason why.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Say more.

José Villalba:

So I was a nerd growing up as a kid, which should come as no surprise to anybody that actually knows me. So I grew up waking up early to watch shuttle launches on TV.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice. And being in Florida.

José Villalba:

And being in Florida. I mean, it was… there was that proximity. But I didn’t think astronaut was in my future. I was never the healthiest young man, and so I was like, “Yeah, I’m not gonna do that. But if I can’t fly them-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… I can sure as heck design them.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And back then, the only public school in Florida with an aerospace program was UF. So that was it. I mean, at the end of the day, I didn’t pick Gainesville because of the gators or the colors or because it was too far from home. Had FIU or UM had an aerospace program at the time, I’m pretty sure my parents woulda been like, “Yeah, no.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah, you’re staying home.

José Villalba:

“You, you go stay right here.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. You can live your wildest dreams at home.

José Villalba:

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so that’s why I went.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

At the end of my first semester at Florida, I had a 1.89 GPA.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

The aforementioned F in calc, the aforementioned C in chemistry-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… C in English. It’s my second language and I never really took the class seriously. And a B in psychology.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And you remember all your grades.

José Villalba:

Those are the only four I remember.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

I don’t remember that just to tell somebody the story, but I’m, like, a 16-year-old version of me was scared out of his mind with a 1.89.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Of course you are.

José Villalba:

And how am I supposed to go back home-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… and show my parents these grades? So anyways, so the psychology degree is the one that, that stuck because it was the only thing I was “Good at” at the end of my first semester.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. And I was gonna flip that and say you leaned into your strength.

José Villalba:

And it was a strength. And I was the guy who always talked to people about their issues and problems. And-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Oh, so surprising. (laughs)

José Villalba:

Right, exactly. Whereas that came naturally to me, but it just seemed like the right degree.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting because I share that, in that I started as a biology major, I don’t know if you know that.

José Villalba:

I did not know that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I wanted to be a physical therapist and pursue this career in medicine. And it was zoology for me in my second year. But the connection there is I was taking this Oral Comms course and I was like, “Wait a minute.” Like, this is a class everybody waits to take ’cause it’s, it’s the actual speech course. But I was, like, living my best life. And then somebody told me you could major in that. I was like, “Oh. Okay. It’s add/drop, when?”

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

And so I could change the course. Though I really always go back to strengths because, again, in our line of work, we work with students often and I think students think you have to stay the course-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… whether you’re happy or not, because you said you were. And two, like, being able to admit, like, zoology’s not my jam.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You know? Neither was chemistry.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Neither was bio.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

It just took me a little while. And then once I shifted, like, my stress level shifted, my grade shifted. I don’t know if that was your experience.

José Villalba:

And it was. I mean, it was the only, you know, what I would consider to be a good grade that I got. But I was jazzed to take developmental at the second semester of my first year. And then-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… cognitive and all that good stuff. The only wrinkle to all of that is my parents were already like, “Well if you’re gonna be a psych major, you might as well come home.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And so the deal that I made with them was, “Yeah, so if I am pre-med, can I stay here?” And it’s interesting; I’ve never said out loud what I’m going to say now, but I played that card because pre-med probably got them to let me stay up in Gainesville. They probably thought, as people who had never gone to school, “Well, he probably can’t do whatever pre-med is back here-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… so he must be where he needs to be to do pre-med.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

A-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Strategic on your part.

José Villalba:

Well, yeah, but also unintentional.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

I mean, that is, like, subconscious.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Like, “Do I give you the copay? The $25 copay for my health insurance?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

So I ended up being a pre-med major for three more semesters, much to my detriment.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

My GPA continued to hover around 2.1, 2.2.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Cause you had to have those prereqs?

José Villalba:

You had to. And eventually, I just told my dad, and again, these are things that I remember as if they were yesterday, “I can’t do pre-med. Number one, nobody needs me as their doctor. People are gonna die.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

“Number two, I don’t-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Do no harm.

José Villalba:

Yeah, do no harm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Rule number one. (laughs)

José Villalba:

Yeah, exactly. And I’m gonna do all kinds of harm. “And number two, I’m really liking the psychology stuff.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

“And if you look at my grades, Dad, all my As and Bs are psychology and sociology.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

“All of my Cs and Ds are, like, organic and bio and zoology.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And so finally, they were like, “Go back to Gainesville for the summer. If you bring me back a 4.0 GPA from summer classes, you can stay. And if you get anything below a 4.0-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

… you come back.” And I took an 11-credit semester in the summer and got a 4.0.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna say you were-

José Villalba:

That was it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… motivated.

José Villalba:

The other part of it is no, I had no idea I was gonna be a counselor. And I’ve said this to a few students on this campus before. What a 19-year-old version of me, which keep in mind a 19-year-old version of me was a junior-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… thought he was gonna do with his psychology degree was write a book on child psychology and go on the Oprah Winfrey Show.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

You were gonna be Dr. Phil before there was a Dr. Phil.

José Villalba:

Literally.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Yeah. I was gonna be Dr. Vill instead of Dr. Phil, right? And so that was it. I was ready.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Maybe that’s a title for your podcast.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Dr. Vill. Nah, I don’t like it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You’re Dr. V.

José Villalba:

Yeah, that’s right. Dr. V is it. But that was my plan. UF has 20 libraries on its campus.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

20. And I didn’t know where this particular library was where I needed to go get a journal article.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

It’s researching for a paper in a class that I walk into the Department of Counseling, uh, in the College of Education because I was lost. And so I walked into this random office to ask this person at the front desk, “Where is the library in Norman Hall?” She said, “It’s over there.” Pointed me in the right direction. As I was walking out, there was a pamphlet, and it said, “Do you want to be a counselor?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

No way.

José Villalba:

I swear.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It was, like, screaming out at you.

José Villalba:

And I’m like, “Where am I?” So I turn around, and I look back, and sure it says, “Department of Counseling.” So I grab a brochure, and on the back of the brochure, it gives you the four majors UF offered at the time. A master’s in school counseling, community counseling, marriage or family therapy, and higher ed.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

And I went back and it was called pseudo-development-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and I went with school counseling. I’m like, “Oh my god, this paragraph is exactly what I’m gonna do.” By then, I’d found out that I, I wasn’t gonna go on the Oprah Winfrey show, and I wasn’t gonna write a book. But again, none of it was planned. If I don’t-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… get lost on my way to the library in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… Norman Hall, I’m not walking into this random office-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… with a little brochure that said, “Do you wanna be a counselor?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. Wow. And something you just said, “If I don’t get lost,” like, how profound is that?

José Villalba:

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Like, we all have these plans, right? Like, I was a 5, 10, 15-year planner. Um, probably not a surprise to you. But it’s the getting lost, or the detour, or the unexpected sign that says, “Do you wanna be a counselor?”-

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

… that can change a whole course.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And Brené Brown talks about… I can’t remember what her original major was, but she walked through the social work building accidentally. And she was an adult student. She went back to school later. And-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… she- she’s who she is now, and you just think about, like, what if that had not happened? But she saw them, they were, I think, doing an orientation or something, and, “These are my people. I found my people.” So that was really how you kinda fell into-

José Villalba:

Literally.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… that field. And then, so you finished your-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… Ph.D. You got to sit on the front row.

José Villalba:

Yeah, I did get to sit on the front row.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs) You got hooded, all those things.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And then, did you go right into being a faculty member?

José Villalba:

I did. I actually graduated ABD, all but my dissertation.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

So I had been a full-time school counselor for about four years and was working on my Ph.D. part-time.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And eventually my doctoral chair said to me, quote, “I wanna retire one day,” end quote.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

“So I’m gonna need you to stop working full-time and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… start working on this dissertation full-time so that I can retire.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And I said, “Sure”. So that was it. The easiest part is doing the coursework on your Ph.D. program; the hardest part is writing.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

I know. You know that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

I mean, we all know that. It’s just what it is. You can still finish-

Shea Kidd Brown:

But you almost don’t know it till you’re in it.

José Villalba:

That is very true. And it can still take you the allotted amount of time to…

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

But it’s still, like, gosh, getting into that. So I had passed my comps, I had gotten the first, you know, three chapters, but I was stuck. I hadn’t started data collection yet or whatever. It was the fall of 2000, and my dissertation chair said to me, “You gotta go.” I loved him. And again, definitely saw a lot more potential in me than I ever saw in myself. He was also my master’s advisor. So he just said to me, “You gotta go. You’ve been here, José, 12 years.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s time.

José Villalba:

“It is time. You know everybody, your friends call you the Godfather of Gainesville. You really need to just get out.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And there were jobs. You know, he told me in the fall of 2000. So the jobs are coming out, and of course, I’m, like, confused, again, being afraid and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… being scared.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s what I was thinking of as you were saying that-

José Villalba:

I don’t wanna apply to one place. Like, trust me, you got everything you need. My advisor, Joe Wittmer, was renowned in school counseling. And so he’s like, “If I vouch for you, you’ll be okay.” I said, “All right.” So I applied for a bunch of jobs and got my jobs, but I did leave Gainesville in the summer of 2001 as an ABD, all but a dissertation. So I came back in 2002 to sit on that-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Finish.

José Villalba:

… front row. Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And I did all my data collection, uh, in my first job.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So you became a faculty member.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I’m fast-forwarding a little bit.

José Villalba:

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You worked at a couple of-

José Villalba:

Two, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… institutions.

José Villalba:

Two before here.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And then you were elevated into administration.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Tell me about the shift between teaching and you’re still teaching.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

We, we all teach. But you still are a faculty member. At what point did you say, “I think I wanna contribute in this way around D&I”? And, you know…

José Villalba:

So I did not intentionally set out to be an administrator. I thought early on that it’d be really neat to be a department chair one day.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

I also didn’t intend on coming to Wake Forest. I was really happy at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, being a faculty member in counseling. But then wanted a shift, and so I came over in 2011. But again, I came over here just to be another faculty member in counseling. A year and a half after I got here, there was an ad, an email, that said, “The college is looking for its inaugural associate dean for faculty recruitment diversity, inclusion, and governance.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

What did you think of that governance word?

José Villalba:

I didn’t know any of those words. And it’s funny because had it not said “Diversity,” I don’t think I even would have read the email.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

My area of focus has been school counseling, multicultural counseling, career development, Latino, Latina, Latinx, college access, health equity. So all of that was, like, in that diversity realm, but I didn’t want to be an administrator, so I deleted it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Couple of months later, I get a phone call from the dean saying, “You’ve been nominated for this position. I’d like for you to apply.” I had to remember, “What is she talking about? Oh yeah, that email I deleted two months prior.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s the digital pamphlet.

José Villalba:

It is the digital pamphlet.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Do you want to be… (laughs)

José Villalba:

Do you wanna… do you wanna be a college administrator? And so, again, I said, “Sure, why not. I’ll apply. Whatever. Especially if they’re calling me.” And that’s how I became an administrator. But it’s interesting; it isn’t until about three or four years after that I start actually thinking, “All right, José, so what do you wanna do?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Because there are term limits to being an associate dean in a college. And not only are there term limits, there’s a limit of how many years you can be. And so three or four years into being an associate dean, I was like, “All right, I like this. I like this. This pays. I like this jam.” And so it’s only about six, seven years ago that I actually started thinking, “What’s next?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

That’s when I started thinking about my strengths. All right, José, you can either be some sort of dean of admissions. Leaning back on that high school…

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

I was also a high school counselor. You can either do some sort of student life or campus life. Or, there are these new jobs now, José, as a chief diversity officer. These new lines of inquiry and work and administration. And it all kinda serendipitously happened. Our inaugural chief diversity officer here at Wake Forest, Barbee Oakes, has decided to leave in the summer of ’17. And I was asked by the then-provost to consider being the interim CDO.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Try it out.

José Villalba:

Try it out. And I remember thinking and saying to him, “I’ll do it, but I just wanna let you know that I’ve been thinking about this lately, and I would like to throw my name-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… in the hat for when y’all decide to look for a permanent one.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Permanent. Mm.

José Villalba:

And he said, “Sure. You try on the job for size and I’ll make sure that you get a fair shot.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And so we had a national search in that year, and lo and behold here I am.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Celebrating my fifth year anniversary as-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

VP for D&I.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Well, and we met, it was my interview, so that’s, that’s really amazing.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I do wanna dig into so many things, um-

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

… you know, so I appreciate you sharing your story and its twists and turns, and embedded in that is the “why” around it all. But I do wanna hear a little more personal things about your story, as you feel comfortable. I mean, Rachel, where does she fit in this whole timeline-

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

… that we’ve (laughs) been talking about? So your wife, Rachel.

José Villalba:

Uh, yes, that’s right, that’s right, that’s right. So Rachel and I met through a mutual friend in the summer of 2000.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

At UF. And so Rachel is from Philadelphia.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Uh, the other thing that I haven’t talked about yet is not only was I raised to be a Cuban-Colombian second-generation immigrant, but I was also raised devoutly Catholic.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And so not only is Rachel not from Miami, not only is Rachel not Latina, but Rachel is also not Catholic.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Rachel is Jewish. And so I fall madly in love with Rachel. I don’t know that she feels the same, but-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… at least she gives me a shot or a chance. And so I bring Rachel home for the holidays in that fall of 2000. Of course, my parents, by that point, knew that she was not Hispanic, which was okay by them.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

It’s not the first time I brought somebody home that wasn’t Hispanic. But it was-

Shea Kidd Brown:

But, she wasn’t Catholic

José Villalba:

… the first time I brought home that wasn’t Catholic. That took a little-

Shea Kidd Brown:

That was a big deal.

José Villalba:

… getting used to. And that was a big deal because what are we supposed to prepare for dinner and does she keep kosher and all of these-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… different things that my parents at least knew a lot about. And that was a huge change. So Rachel fits in Y2K, right? In the year 2000.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

It’s funny. You know, we started this conversation talking about D&I-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and where does that come from? And in a lot of ways, I’ve been beyond blessed, beyond privileged, beyond lucky. And I know I worked at some of these things. We always talk about it. We try to-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… help our students understand not everything is luck. And whatever you think is luck is actual work ’cause you put yourself in those spaces.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure. And luck favors the prepared.

José Villalba:

Definitely.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s something I heard from a professor in graduate school.

José Villalba:

It does. If you’re lucky enough to be somewhere, you can make the most out of that-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… right? That’s where the preparation comes in.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

But I was privileged and lucky enough to be born into this family, privileged enough to spend that first internship of diversity in Spain when I was in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. (laughs)

José Villalba:

… middle school, not even knowing yet.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Middle school internship, I like that.

José Villalba:

(laughs) Yeah, exactly. That’s what it was. And then, I made the most of that happenstance conversation with Rachel. And so now, flash forward all these different years, in a lot of ways, we live what we practice. I mean, I-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… am the VP for D&I at a top 30 school, which I love working at.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Me too.

José Villalba:

(laughs) It’s imperfections and all. I love working here. And then when I go home, I go home to this house of three kids who identify as Latino and Latina, who are Jewish, who are lucky enough and privileged enough and bougie enough to celebrate-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… all the holidays.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna say, so do they practice Catholicism and Judaism? Or they’re identifying as something else?

José Villalba:

So they are Catholic consumers.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

So they consume the tree, and they consume-

Shea Kidd Brown:

I see.

José Villalba:

… the Easter candy.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

So we have three kids. Jacob’s 16, Celia is 14, and Alex is 11. Celia had her Bat Mitzvah last year, and Jacob had his Bar Mitzvah a couple of years ago. And they are Jewish. If you were

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… to ask them what church they’d go to, they would say, ’cause they’re also really smart-alecky like their mom and their dad-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. Not sure where they got that.

José Villalba:

… “We don’t go to church; we go to temple.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And then they will tell you that they go to Temple Emmanuel.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

But they identify with the fact that their dad is still a Catholic. Mind you-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… about as lapsed a catholic as one-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… can be. But I’ve never converted, so yeah

Shea Kidd Brown:

And was that a challenge, like, making that decision once you had children?

José Villalba:

We made it before we had children.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

So before getting to UNCG, I taught at Indiana State University for two years. And I only reference that because Rachel and I spent a lot of time in a car.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Driving to, like, Chicago and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Those road trips are the best for couples.

José Villalba:

… drivi-… They are. Especially young couples.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

I mean, Rachel took a chance on me. We met in 2000, and in 2001, literally 12 months after we met, probably more like 11, I was dragging her off to Terre Haute, Indiana.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

I’d never been there. But we decided on one of those car trips that there was… what three ways we can go. We can either raise them to be interfaith, we can raise them to be catholic, or we can raise them to be Jewish. And at the end of, I guess, a couple of those conversations-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… it just made sense to pick one.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Sometimes being an adult means you have to make some-

Shea Kidd Brown:

You have to make choices.

José Villalba:

… choices.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so we knew that Rachel really didn’t wanna give up that part of her identity.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

She doesn’t keep kosher, so she’s a Reformed Jew, but it’s a huge part of who she is and her identity. And I knew that if I was gonna quote, unquote, “Make them be catholic,” well, José, you gotta go to the First Communion classes and you gotta go to the confirmation classes.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

You gotta do all that. And I knew me. So we-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… decided to go with that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

That was a conversation or two, or six, or 12 with my family.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

Particularly with my mom.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

That was a harder one and a lot of, “Are you sure?” And, and especially when the kids were born, “Are you sure there’s not gonna be a first communion?”

“No.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

“Are they gonna be baptized?”

“No.”

“Can we take them-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

… to the church…”

Shea Kidd Brown:

No.

José Villalba:

“N- no.” We could.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

But we were not gonna do that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And, you know, that’s, I think, one, it was important for y’all it sounds like to really grapple with that before it got complicated, you know?

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Because once it is, like, “Well, you know, we kinda go back and forth.” And-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… and then you were solid as a partnership-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… to say, “This is what we’ve decided.”

José Villalba:

This is what we’ve decided.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And, you know, in my adult life, I think whether it’s family or, you know, friends or whatever, once you’re solid with your values, it really makes it so much easier. And that’s maybe in part two we could talk about values ’cause I just… I hear that throughout what you’re talking about. You haven’t named it, but it sounds like that’s been something that’s been really important to you.

So we’ve talked a lot about your journey-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… and I appreciate that.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Um, I’m curious about today.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I talk about my work, I feel like it is hard work and heart work because I definitely use my mind and my body, but I use a lotta my heart and soul from a passion perspective. So I imagine there are things in your head and in your heart. But I’m curious, what’s on your heart these days? And whether that’s parenting, or partnership, or being an administrator. I’m just curious, what do you wake up thinking about? What continues to kind of be on your heart these days?

José Villalba:

Yeah. So I appreciate you saying family so that I can name family.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And then focus on the work. Because with those kids and with Rachel, I’m constantly wondering how they’re doing and making sure they’re okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And with a lot of things going on in our society.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Parents, unfortunately, think about school safety and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Certainly.

José Villalba:

… all these different things. But that being said, I’ll focus on Wake because I do wake up thinking about how our society is impacting our faculty, our staff, and our students-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… or our staff, our students, and our faculty, or any combination of those three words-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… right? It is a hard time to be in a marginalized or minoritized group in our society. And in a different kind of way, it’s hard to be in a privileged group or in a majority group.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. There’s a lotta polarization.

José Villalba:

There’s a lotta polarization. And folks who aren’t accustomed to thinking about these things are all of a sudden having to think about these things, whether they like to or not. And folks who are accustomed to thinking about all of these things would rather have a break.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

And so I wake up thinking about my team-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and how they’re doing, particularly in a space in higher education where there’s constant demanding of proving your worth-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… constant reframing diversity, equity, and inclusion as-

Shea Kidd Brown:

And this is globally.

José Villalba:

… divisive and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… exclusive-… Right. And it is globally, a- absolutely. And so, I guess, in that order, I think about the 14, 15 folks in the office of diversity and inclusion who are charged with doing this work on the daily. And then I think about the pressures on our institution from the outside to be more woke, be less woke. Focus more on our fallacies; focus more on our strengths.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

It’s never-ending. And I also worry particularly about our students because unlike our faculty and our staff who at some point go home, I realize you and I go home at very different hours-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… then a lot of our colleagues. And even when we are home, we’re constantly thinking about this stuff. Our students, during the fall and spring semesters, this is home. And so they carry a certain level of, uh, awareness, heightened awareness as to whether or not that evening they’re going to be presented with a challenge around who they are, what they stand for.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

In addition to the Organic Chemistry final, that is-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… right around the corner.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

And so that’s what’s on my heart.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And because of my social scientist background, my heart and my brain do a lot of talking.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure. Mine too.

José Villalba:

And how do we take what you care about, José, and what this community needs and create an initiative, a program, an agenda, and then measure its effectiveness? And then, when you figure out what worked and didn’t work, we social scientists talk a lot about feedback loops; then how do we take what hasn’t worked and tweak it? That is every day-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… that I wake up and when I go to bed.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Certainly, and I would add perhaps your lived experience and how that is enmeshed as well.

José Villalba:

And that part is hard. My undergraduate degree and graduate degree being in counseling and psychology, being very self-aware around transference and countertransference.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

So, making sure that I don’t put something on somebody.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Uh, my favorite word is projection. ”José-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… are you projecting your unreconciled experiences as an undergrad”?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Are you projecting your unreconciled experiences as an untenured faculty member? And be very careful not to put that on someone else.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

And it’s interesting; I had a conversation with a student recently where I kept seeing myself in that individual.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hm.

José Villalba:

There were some similarities. And then me very actively thinking, “Yo, this isn’t about you.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

So take a breath. And I’ll do that sometimes and just kind of circle back a few seconds later, which of course feels like minutes when you’re talking to someone. But just being really present.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

And, of course, I know that I am who I am, and I’ve gotten where I’ve gotten because of my experiences, but still, in this day and age, I’m no longer 17 or 18, and I’ve not grown up in this era. And so just kinda keeping that in check, is what I’m trying-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… to say.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. And it’s a balance. I mean, I, I navigate that often. And I have a colleague who says, “It’s not about you and it’s all about you.”

José Villalba:

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Because it is this stepping back to center the student, which we’ll talk about often. And without us humanizing the role, there’s no connection. You know-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… without us thinking empathically about stepping onto campus at 16 in your case, 18 in my case, I can’t connect. But as you say, the context is different; it’s changed. And so I find my friends’ words to be really helpful-

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… uh, because we also can’t… and I don’t think you were saying that, but we can’t take ourselves out of it ’cause I think that’s where the magic happens.

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I think that’s where the connection happens.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So I have a middle schooler as well, so – same age as Celia. And we get in this… it’s a good pattern, but we talk about our days.

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And we’re like, “How’s your day?”

“It was good.”

“How’s your day?”

“It was good.” There’s not, like, a lot of meat that comes from that.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

So I’m also a nerd, and so I was like, googling how to talk to your middle schooler. Not, not exactly.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

But I was just thinking about it. And I came up with these questions. And one of them was what are three good things to happen to you today? So then it gives us this chance to, like, dive a little bit deeper in our day. So I’m not gonna say what are three good things that have happened to you today.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Um, but I’m curious, what are three good things that have happened to you lately?

José Villalba:

Huh. It’s tough to sort through three good things ’cause I think I’ve had a lot. And I realize-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… you’re asking for any, so I’m, I’m trying not to prioritize them.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s good, though. That there’s-

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… so many.

José Villalba:

(laughs) So a good thing that happened lately is Rachel and I got to spend some quality time without the children-

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s important.

José Villalba:

… or the dogs.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs) That’s important too.

José Villalba:

Uh, we don’t have a lotta time together. And it’s just because of my work and also her jobs. I only have one job. Rachel’s got, like, 17 jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Volunteer here, volunteer there. She’s a speech-language pathologist. So we gotta chance to travel to Venice for a few days-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… just her and I.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice.

José Villalba:

That was a great thing that happened.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

The second great thing was that Celia graduated from the eighth grade.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Oh, exciting.

José Villalba:

And so that is very, very exciting. And it’s neat because when Celia graduates, you’re teleported back to Jacob’s eighth-grade graduation-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and you’re teleported to Alex’s kindergarten graduation.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. All the memories.

José Villalba:

And so a-… so those memories are something that has happened recently, and so that’s been great. And then a third really great thing that happened recently is I planted a flower for my mom.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Oh, beautiful. Aw.

José Villalba:

Yeah. So it’s a… My dad passed away, as I mentioned, four years ago.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And she’s got me down the street; she’s got my brother down the street as well. My… We all live here now, quote, unquote, “In the triad.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And so it was just really nice to spend that time with my mom, who I don’t spend a lot of time with now. She’s got her own thing that she’s doing. But those are really three great things. And I’m kinda glad to say that none of them are related to work. They’re all related-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… to family.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna say they’re all family. That’s beautiful. Well, I wanna end on just what gives you hope. Talked a lot about the journey and today and spending time with family. As, as we look forward, what are you excited about? What, what are you hopeful for?

José Villalba:

I’m hopeful for people’s general disposition for solving problems.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Say more.

José Villalba:

There are so many things going on in our society right now that are hard to process, that are politically motivated, that are tense. And yet, ultimately, in the aggregate, on average, human beings are problem solvers.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Some tinker in a maker space, like at Wake Forest WakerSpace.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Some tinker mentally. And ultimately, human beings would rather be, in general, in a better place than a worse place.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

We’re in a really tough place right now.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Particularly around the issues that you and I deal with on the daily. But I do have hope. I have hope in this generation of kids our age, and by that I mean the ones that you and I live with-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… and also the students on this campus and campuses like Wake. That natural human disposition towards solving problems and getting out of a place that one would rather not be in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… that gives me hope for the future.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. That’s beautiful. Wow, it is always so life-giving to spend time with you, um, certainly today. I’ve learned a whole lot. And I’m hopeful too. We get to work in a place where our motto is For Humanity, Pro Humanitate. And I think it’s the everyday.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s why we do what we do. And we get to learn and lead alongside thousands of students and, and colleagues and faculty and staff and alums and families, and the list can go on. So I’m just so grateful for your friendship and to be able to work alongside you on these hard and heart-related issues. So thank you.

José Villalba:

You’re welcome.

Shea Kidd Brown:

We recorded-

José Villalba:

You’re welcome.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… our first podcast.

José Villalba:

I don’t wanna be the last word, but this has been great.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Well, you can be-

José Villalba:

I mean, this-

Shea Kidd Brown:

… the last word.

José Villalba:

… this… Well, I mean, this has been fantastic. I also got a chance to connect with you, which is always awesome. But also in a way that- that’s free from the usual-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… fast-paced hustle and bustle.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

And so this has been a privilege. This has been an unearned privilege to sit and just talk to you-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

… for a bit. Thank you, Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s equally a privilege for me. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. Each of us has an important story to share, and I hope you’ll spend some time thinking about yours as you reflect on today’s conversation. You have something to contribute to the world, I kid you not. Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and the heart work.

Mary-Anna Bailey:

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta (‘25). Make sure to give us a follow and stay tuned for the next episode of this show on your preferred streaming platform. For any thoughts and suggestions, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. Next time, we’ll be back with a special guest from our sports coaching staff. Until then, I’m Mary-Anna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Here’s my conversation with Dr. José Villalba.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So, hello.

José Villalba:

Hello.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I’m so excited that you’re here.

José Villalba:

I am too. Thanks for having me here.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

No.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay (laughs). So we’re in good company.

José Villalba:

We are.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah, so-

José Villalba:

As usual.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

We do?

Shea Kidd Brown:

We do.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

We’re on the Reynolda Cabinet, and we spend a lot of time thinking about the student experience, but we’ve not talked a lot about you-

José Villalba:

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… uh, specifically. So I’m gonna take us back.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Back, back, back.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

University of Florida, that’s where you did four degrees, right?

José Villalba:

All four of my degrees-

Shea Kidd Brown:

All four.

José Villalba:

… all four in one place. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yes. I’m sorry. As a Georgia grad, I’ll forgive you for that.

José Villalba:

Are we gonna edit that Georgia grad thing out?

Shea Kidd Brown:

We are probably not.

José Villalba:

No. Okay. Got it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Two! Two-time national champions.

José Villalba:

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

My journey starts in Miami, Florida. I am what researchers would call a second-generation immigrant.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Uh, my parents were first-generation immigrants. My dad was born and raised in Colombia.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

And did you have siblings?

José Villalba:

I have one sibling.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

But he and I are 18 years apart.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow. My oldest brother and my younger brother are 18 years apart.

José Villalba:

Are they really?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

… gonna go to college. My father had a knack for reminding me that he didn’t leave Colombia, and my mom has the same knack for reminding me that she didn’t leave a communist country-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

A big city.

José Villalba:

It really, really changed my life.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s interesting.

José Villalba:

And the minoritized space really kicks in at UF-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… and Gainesville. I moved to Gainesville in 1989.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And the benefit of having spent that month in Spain was like, “Oh, so these feelings of insecurity and confusion and fear, I’ve had these before.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… since you threw out the dog thing, whatever that is. And I also lucked out, um, randomly, of course, is life happens in the residence halls. But I got with a very cool group of guys.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And we were very much from all over the place. But we were practicing intercultural dialogue in conversations before-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Before it was a thing.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… institution. I say this to some folks that back in ’89, UF was less than 2% Hispanic, Latino, or Latinx.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

And of course, people are like, “No way. I mean, it’s in Florida.” Yeah, well, it’s in Florida, but it’s not in South Florida.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s true.

José Villalba:

It is…

Shea Kidd Brown:

And that geography really matters.

José Villalba:

Yeah, that geography matters.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Especially when you’re leaving your family, and that’s something that’s really important.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so that double consciousness was, was there. And I think it also manifested in other ways, the whole imposter syndrome that I think a lot of first-generation college students get.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And it’s a big place.

José Villalba:

It’s huge. And it’s only gotten bigger. And, again, you referenced that I got all my degrees from there. I, I got to Gainesville in 1989, and I left in 2001.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And so I saw that place and that university change-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really change.

José Villalba:

… in 12 years. The other thing that’s part of my narrative is that I graduated high school when I was 16.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I did not know that.

José Villalba:

And I don’t recommend that anyone send a 16-year-old-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah (laughs).

José Villalba:

… away to college.

Shea Kidd Brown:

There’s still some formation of the frontal cortex, I hear.

José Villalba:

Mine is still going on.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay (laughs).

José Villalba:

So, so, yeah, it’s perpetual. There’s something about gender in there, but we can talk about that some-

Shea Kidd Brown:

We could.

José Villalba:

… other time.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That may be a different episode.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

‘Cause they hadn’t experienced.

José Villalba:

Absolutely not. And so there were a couple of professors who really, I felt, had my back. Couple of TAs who also had my back. But I didn’t frequent any of the identity spaces-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

… at UF.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hm.

José Villalba:

My identity space was 489 Murphree Hall. That was my first room.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Your people.

José Villalba:

And Rawlings Hall, I forgot where my buddies lived, but-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Ain’t it funny how we-

José Villalba:

… that’s a-

Shea Kidd Brown:

… remember the…

José Villalba:

Oh, you definitely remember.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Like, I remember Jones Hall, sixth floor-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… penthouse.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs) We… That was my first year. I moved to the first floor, that spring.. But I remember every semester. And I lived on campus all four years, um, during my experience.

José Villalba:

I did too. And I love living on campus. I guess in some existential way that campus became my support-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

How to be “first-in-line” at the financial aid office.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

How…

Shea Kidd Brown:

Make a friend there.

José Villalba:

How to make a friend there. How awesome it was when your best friend Dennis became a college work-study student in the financial aid office.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice.

José Villalba:

All of those different things are really “what I needed to get,-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… to get through”.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Yeah. That’s a fascinating question ’cause I’ve never thought about it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And I wanna say grit, and I wanna say resilience, and I wanna say ganas, which is the Spanish word for motivation and, like-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… kinda being hungry, right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Like, those sorts of things. But I almost wanna say that ’cause that’s what I’m supposed to say.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. That’s our higher ed answer.

José Villalba:

Yeah, exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

But I got a couple of life lessons from my dad throughout my entire life. He passed away four years ago, but he lives in me every single hour of every single day ’cause all of these one-liners have always stuck. And so, for me, there are two that are standing out at this moment. And it’s probably what got me through those tough times. The first one-liner he had, and I learned it early on, was dime con quién estás y te diré quién eres, “tell me who you’re with, and I’ll tell you who you are”.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

And that tells me who you’re with; I’ll tell you who you are wasn’t referencing adults or, like… it was just, like, your friends. Like, who are your people?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so intentionally and probably happenstance-wise, I got with a really good group of folks. And we were a broader group than just a four or five.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

But-

Shea Kidd Brown:

It probably grew-

José Villalba:

And it grew. As you know, first-year students came in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm. Hearing that in the back of your head.

José Villalba:

… “y- you pick the good people.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

“They don’t have to be this religion or this color or anything like that, but don’t mess that up.” And that got me through.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Those good humans got me through. And you can see it now how that blends into the folks that I work with and the folks that I’m privileged to work with, and the folks that I break bread with. So that was the first one. The second thing that always stands out, and I’m thinking about it now, and it does make me emotional, is No confundas el miedo por el susto. And you’ve heard me talk about this before.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Don’t confuse being scared for being afraid.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Um, and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s powerful.

José Villalba:

… and early on, as a 16-year-old first-time college student, there was definitely a lot of, like, being afraid of failing.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

And then, lo and behold, failing. I remind students who know my narrative, and I teach students who don’t know my narrative I flunk Calc I. Not with a D, not with a D-, but straight up F.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And chemistry came and knocked me on my face; I got a C in chemistry.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Chemistry got me too, but I got a D, not a C.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… or you aren’t coming back home. But don’t confuse being afraid and being scared. It’s okay to be scared-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… but don’t let it seep in. So in graduate school, I’m too afraid to go to grad school. Why?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Could be scared. Like, you better put your all into the GRE. You know, you better stay home this weekend to study for that final. But don’t be afraid of grad school.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. And don’t not do it as a result of that.

José Villalba:

E- exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Because that’s what happens to us.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

I mean, it’s, it’s powerful.

José Villalba:

It is.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… in the road. What were other bumps?

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I mean, are there things that you can think of, in addition to the concern about grades, can think of that have also helped you with that not confusing those two?

José Villalba:

Yeah. For me, one of the regular speed bumps was when things would happen at home and I was far away. And feeling like I had somehow tapped out or-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… gotten off easy.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

We had aunts and uncles who had issues with, like, the criminal justice system. And, you know, you would have an aunt who would get sick. And you would hear from your cousins who were all back home-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And I remember a lot of that. And sometimes it was more guilt than I needed-

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna-

José Villalba:

… to feel.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… ask you if that created guilt.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

So I graduated in ’93. Because of that F in calc, it took me four and a half years to graduate instead of four, but that’s okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Just a little victory lap.

José Villalba:

I got there two years early anyways-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… it was fine.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And, and one, one more season of football.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You were still ahead.

José Villalba:

I was still ahead, yes. I was still ahead. And so I get my bachelor’s, I come back six months later to start my master’s degree-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and my specialist degree in, in school counseling. And I’m loving grad school. More time in Gainesville, that was even great.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And you’re coming back, right?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. That’s the expectation.

José Villalba:

You’re supposed to come back-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… year.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s what we all say.

José Villalba:

A… Just one year in Gainesville, benefits, steady paycheck.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

I mean, king of the world.

Shea Kidd Brown:

A little ROI.

José Villalba:

A little ROI, exactly.

José Villalba:

And so it’s great. So I decided to stay. The other tension in that decision was I had a little bit of an itch to get a PhD.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay. Did that itch always exist?

José Villalba:

The itch started during commencement for my master’s.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… I’m getting my master’s and my specialist degree. I’ve got three degrees now. My parents are back to where they saw me a couple years ago.

Shea Kidd Brown:

This point, how old? I’m like-

José Villalba:

I was…

Shea Kidd Brown:

… you’re still very young.

José Villalba:

I was 22.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. With three degrees (laughs).

José Villalba:

I was 22 with three degrees.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

And I’m at the front ’cause, you know, they put the graduate students up front at commencement.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

That’s right. But I wasn’t at the front, front, Dr. Shea Kidd Brown.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

There was an empty row in front of me, and on the front, front were the PhD students.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Ooh.

José Villalba:

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

And don’t let me ever lie to you and tell you that I’m not competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

‘Cause that’s just a lie. And I-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Me too.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And I’d be lying to my mom and my abuela

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… and my abuelo, and all those people that did-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… everything they could to get me to where I was. I knew they’d be proud, but I also knew they’d-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… be hurt ’cause I was supposed to come home.

Shea Kidd Brown:

But plans change.

José Villalba:

And plans change. And I love that you said that ’cause you remind me that it’s okay that plans-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… have changed. But it doesn’t mean it’s all, like, you know, rainbows and and ice cream.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Well, and it, it required for you, to some degree, giving up that proximity, giving up your commitment-

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Yeah. So there are good stories in there.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

The first story is I only became a psych major because of calculus and chemistry.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

I went to UF to be an aerospace engineer.

Shea Kidd Brown:

No way.

José Villalba:

Yes way.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And there’s a reason why.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Say more.

José Villalba:

So I was a nerd growing up as a kid, which should come as no surprise to anybody that actually knows me. So I grew up waking up early to watch shuttle launches on TV.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice. And being in Florida.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… I can sure as heck design them.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah, you’re staying home.

José Villalba:

“You, you go stay right here.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. You can live your wildest dreams at home.

José Villalba:

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so that’s why I went.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

At the end of my first semester at Florida, I had a 1.89 GPA.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

The aforementioned F in calc, the aforementioned C in chemistry-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… C in English. It’s my second language and I never really took the class seriously. And a B in psychology.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And you remember all your grades.

José Villalba:

Those are the only four I remember.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

I don’t remember that just to tell somebody the story, but I’m, like, a 16-year-old version of me was scared out of his mind with a 1.89.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Of course you are.

José Villalba:

And how am I supposed to go back home-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… and show my parents these grades? So anyways, so the psychology degree is the one that, that stuck because it was the only thing I was “Good at” at the end of my first semester.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. And I was gonna flip that and say you leaned into your strength.

José Villalba:

And it was a strength. And I was the guy who always talked to people about their issues and problems. And-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Oh, so surprising. (laughs)

José Villalba:

Right, exactly. Whereas that came naturally to me, but it just seemed like the right degree.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting because I share that, in that I started as a biology major, I don’t know if you know that.

José Villalba:

I did not know that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

And so I could change the course. Though I really always go back to strengths because, again, in our line of work, we work with students often and I think students think you have to stay the course-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… whether you’re happy or not, because you said you were. And two, like, being able to admit, like, zoology’s not my jam.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You know? Neither was chemistry.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Neither was bio.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

It just took me a little while. And then once I shifted, like, my stress level shifted, my grade shifted. I don’t know if that was your experience.

José Villalba:

And it was. I mean, it was the only, you know, what I would consider to be a good grade that I got. But I was jazzed to take developmental at the second semester of my first year. And then-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… cognitive and all that good stuff. The only wrinkle to all of that is my parents were already like, “Well if you’re gonna be a psych major, you might as well come home.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… so he must be where he needs to be to do pre-med.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

A-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Strategic on your part.

José Villalba:

Well, yeah, but also unintentional.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

I mean, that is, like, subconscious.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Like, “Do I give you the copay? The $25 copay for my health insurance?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

So I ended up being a pre-med major for three more semesters, much to my detriment.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

My GPA continued to hover around 2.1, 2.2.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Cause you had to have those prereqs?

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

“Number two, I don’t-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Do no harm.

José Villalba:

Yeah, do no harm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Rule number one. (laughs)

José Villalba:

Yeah, exactly. And I’m gonna do all kinds of harm. “And number two, I’m really liking the psychology stuff.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

“And if you look at my grades, Dad, all my As and Bs are psychology and sociology.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

“All of my Cs and Ds are, like, organic and bio and zoology.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And so finally, they were like, “Go back to Gainesville for the summer. If you bring me back a 4.0 GPA from summer classes, you can stay. And if you get anything below a 4.0-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

… you come back.” And I took an 11-credit semester in the summer and got a 4.0.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna say you were-

José Villalba:

That was it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… motivated.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… thought he was gonna do with his psychology degree was write a book on child psychology and go on the Oprah Winfrey Show.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

You were gonna be Dr. Phil before there was a Dr. Phil.

José Villalba:

Literally.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Yeah. I was gonna be Dr. Vill instead of Dr. Phil, right? And so that was it. I was ready.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Maybe that’s a title for your podcast.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Dr. Vill. Nah, I don’t like it.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You’re Dr. V.

José Villalba:

Yeah, that’s right. Dr. V is it. But that was my plan. UF has 20 libraries on its campus.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

20. And I didn’t know where this particular library was where I needed to go get a journal article.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

No way.

José Villalba:

I swear.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It was, like, screaming out at you.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Really?

José Villalba:

And I went back and it was called pseudo-development-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… get lost on my way to the library in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… Norman Hall, I’m not walking into this random office-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… with a little brochure that said, “Do you wanna be a counselor?”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. Wow. And something you just said, “If I don’t get lost,” like, how profound is that?

José Villalba:

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

… that can change a whole course.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Literally.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… that field. And then, so you finished your-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… Ph.D. You got to sit on the front row.

José Villalba:

Yeah, I did get to sit on the front row.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs) You got hooded, all those things.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And then, did you go right into being a faculty member?

José Villalba:

I did. I actually graduated ABD, all but my dissertation.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

So I had been a full-time school counselor for about four years and was working on my Ph.D. part-time.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And eventually my doctoral chair said to me, quote, “I wanna retire one day,” end quote.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

“So I’m gonna need you to stop working full-time and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… start working on this dissertation full-time so that I can retire.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And I said, “Sure”. So that was it. The easiest part is doing the coursework on your Ph.D. program; the hardest part is writing.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

I know. You know that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

I mean, we all know that. It’s just what it is. You can still finish-

Shea Kidd Brown:

But you almost don’t know it till you’re in it.

José Villalba:

That is very true. And it can still take you the allotted amount of time to…

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s time.

José Villalba:

“It is time. You know everybody, your friends call you the Godfather of Gainesville. You really need to just get out.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And there were jobs. You know, he told me in the fall of 2000. So the jobs are coming out, and of course, I’m, like, confused, again, being afraid and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… being scared.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s what I was thinking of as you were saying that-

José Villalba:

I don’t wanna apply to one place. Like, trust me, you got everything you need. My advisor, Joe Whitmore, was renowned in school counseling. And so he’s like, “If I vouch for you, you’ll be okay.” I said, “All right.” So I applied for a bunch of jobs and got my jobs, but I did leave Gainesville in the summer of 2001 as an ABD, all but a dissertation. So I came back in 2002 to sit on that-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Finish.

José Villalba:

… front row. Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And I did all my data collection, uh, in my first job.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So you became a faculty member.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I’m fast-forwarding a little bit.

José Villalba:

Absolutely.

Shea Kidd Brown:

You worked at a couple of-

José Villalba:

Two, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… institutions.

José Villalba:

Two before here.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And then you were elevated into administration.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Tell me about the shift between teaching and you’re still teaching.

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

We, we all teach. But you still are a faculty member. At what point did you say, “I think I wanna contribute in this way around D&I”? And, you know…

José Villalba:

So I did not intentionally set out to be an administrator. I thought early on that it’d be really neat to be a department chair one day.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

What did you think of that governance word?

José Villalba:

I didn’t know any of those words. And it’s funny because had it not said “Diversity,” I don’t think I even would have read the email.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s the digital pamphlet.

José Villalba:

It is the digital pamphlet.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Do you want to be… (laughs)

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

That’s when I started thinking about my strengths. All right, José, you can either be some sort of dean of admissions. Leaning back on that high school…

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Try it out.

José Villalba:

Try it out. And I remember thinking and saying to him, “I’ll do it, but I just wanna let you know that I’ve been thinking about this lately, and I would like to throw my name-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… in the hat for when y’all decide to look for a permanent one.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Permanent. Mm.

José Villalba:

And he said, “Sure. You try on the job for size and I’ll make sure that you get a fair shot.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And so we had a national search in that year, and lo and behold here I am.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Celebrating my fifth year anniversary as-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

VP for D&I.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Well, and we met, it was my interview, so that’s, that’s really amazing.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And I do wanna dig into so many things, um-

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

… that we’ve (laughs) been talking about? So your wife, Rachel.

José Villalba:

Uh, yes, that’s right, that’s right, that’s right. So Rachel and I met through a mutual friend in the summer of 2000.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

At UF. And so Rachel is from Philadelphia.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Uh, the other thing that I haven’t talked about yet is not only was I raised to be a Cuban-Colombian second-generation immigrant, but I was also raised devoutly Catholic.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

And so not only is Rachel not from Miami, not only is Rachel not Latina, but Rachel is also not Catholic.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

Rachel is Jewish. And so I fall madly in love with Rachel. I don’t know that she feels the same, but-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

It’s not the first time I brought somebody home that wasn’t Hispanic. But it was-

Shea Kidd Brown:

But, she wasn’t Catholic

José Villalba:

… the first time I brought home that wasn’t Catholic. That took a little-

Shea Kidd Brown:

That was a big deal.

José Villalba:

… getting used to. And that was a big deal because what are we supposed to prepare for dinner and does she keep kosher and all of these-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… different things that my parents at least knew a lot about. And that was a huge change. So Rachel fits in Y2K, right? In the year 2000.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

It’s funny. You know, we started this conversation talking about D&I-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and where does that come from? And in a lot of ways, I’ve been beyond blessed, beyond privileged, beyond lucky. And I know I worked at some of these things. We always talk about it. We try to-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… help our students understand not everything is luck. And whatever you think is luck is actual work ’cause you put yourself in those spaces.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure. And luck favors the prepared.

José Villalba:

Definitely.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s something I heard from a professor in graduate school.

José Villalba:

It does. If you’re lucky enough to be somewhere, you can make the most out of that-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… right? That’s where the preparation comes in.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

But I was privileged and lucky enough to be born into this family, privileged enough to spend that first internship of diversity in Spain when I was in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. (laughs)

José Villalba:

… middle school, not even knowing yet.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Middle school internship, I like that.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… am the VP for D&I at a top 30 school, which I love working at.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Me too.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… all the holidays.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I was gonna say, so do they practice Catholicism and Judaism? Or they’re identifying as something else?

José Villalba:

So they are Catholic consumers.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

So they consume the tree, and they consume-

Shea Kidd Brown:

I see.

José Villalba:

… the Easter candy.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

So we have three kids. Jacob’s 16, Celia is 14, and Alex is 11. Celia had her Bat Mitzvah last year, and Jacob had his Bar Mitzvah a couple of years ago. And they are Jewish. If you were

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… to ask them what church they’d go to, they would say, ’cause they’re also really smart-alecky like their mom and their dad-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. Not sure where they got that.

José Villalba:

… “We don’t go to church; we go to temple.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

And then they will tell you that they go to Temple Emmanuel.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

But they identify with the fact that their dad is still a Catholic. Mind you-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… about as lapsed a catholic as one-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

… can be. But I’ve never converted, so yeah

Shea Kidd Brown:

And was that a challenge, like, making that decision once you had children?

José Villalba:

We made it before we had children.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Okay.

José Villalba:

So before getting to UNCG, I taught at Indiana State University for two years. And I only reference that because Rachel and I spent a lot of time in a car.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Driving to, like, Chicago and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Those road trips are the best for couples.

José Villalba:

… drivi-… They are. Especially young couples.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

I mean, Rachel took a chance on me. We met in 2000, and in 2001, literally 12 months after we met, probably more like 11, I was dragging her off to Terre Haute, Indiana.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… it just made sense to pick one.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Sometimes being an adult means you have to make some-

Shea Kidd Brown:

You have to make choices.

José Villalba:

… choices.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

And so we knew that Rachel really didn’t wanna give up that part of her identity.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

You gotta do all that. And I knew me. So we-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… decided to go with that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

That was a conversation or two, or six, or 12 with my family.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

Particularly with my mom.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

That was a harder one and a lot of, “Are you sure?” And, and especially when the kids were born, “Are you sure there’s not gonna be a first communion?”

“No.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

“Are they gonna be baptized?”

“No.”

“Can we take them-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

… to the church…”

Shea Kidd Brown:

No.

José Villalba:

“N- no.” We could.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

But we were not gonna do that.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And, you know, that’s, I think, one, it was important for y’all it sounds like to really grapple with that before it got complicated, you know?

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Because once it is, like, “Well, you know, we kinda go back and forth.” And-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… and then you were solid as a partnership-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… to say, “This is what we’ve decided.”

José Villalba:

This is what we’ve decided.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So we’ve talked a lot about your journey-

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… and I appreciate that.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Um, I’m curious about today.

José Villalba:

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Yeah. So I appreciate you saying family so that I can name family.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And then focus on the work. Because with those kids and with Rachel, I’m constantly wondering how they’re doing and making sure they’re okay.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And with a lot of things going on in our society.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Parents, unfortunately, think about school safety and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Certainly.

José Villalba:

… all these different things. But that being said, I’ll focus on Wake because I do wake up thinking about how our society is impacting our faculty, our staff, and our students-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… or our staff, our students, and our faculty, or any combination of those three words-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… right? It is a hard time to be in a marginalized or minoritized group in our society. And in a different kind of way, it’s hard to be in a privileged group or in a majority group.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. There’s a lotta polarization.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

And so I wake up thinking about my team-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and how they’re doing, particularly in a space in higher education where there’s constant demanding of proving your worth-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… constant reframing diversity, equity, and inclusion as-

Shea Kidd Brown:

And this is globally.

José Villalba:

… divisive and-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

It’s never-ending. And I also worry particularly about our students because unlike our faculty and our staff who at some point go home, I realize you and I go home at very different hours-

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

In addition to the Organic Chemistry final, that is-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… right around the corner.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

And so that’s what’s on my heart.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And because of my social scientist background, my heart and my brain do a lot of talking.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure. Mine too.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… that I wake up and when I go to bed.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Certainly, and I would add perhaps your lived experience and how that is enmeshed as well.

José Villalba:

And that part is hard. My undergraduate degree and graduate degree being in counseling and psychology, being very self-aware around transference and countertransference.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

So, making sure that I don’t put something on somebody.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Uh, my favorite word is projection. ”José-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… are you projecting your unreconciled experiences as an undergrad”?

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Are you projecting your unreconciled experiences as an untenured faculty member? And be very careful not to put that on someone else.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Sure.

José Villalba:

And it’s interesting; I had a conversation with a student recently where I kept seeing myself in that individual.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Hm.

José Villalba:

There were some similarities. And then me very actively thinking, “Yo, this isn’t about you.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

So take a breath. And I’ll do that sometimes and just kind of circle back a few seconds later, which of course feels like minutes when you’re talking to someone. But just being really present.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… to say.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah. And it’s a balance. I mean, I, I navigate that often. And I have a colleague who says, “It’s not about you and it’s all about you.”

José Villalba:

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Because it is this stepping back to center the student, which we’ll talk about often. And without us humanizing the role, there’s no connection. You know-

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… uh, because we also can’t… and I don’t think you were saying that, but we can’t take ourselves out of it ’cause I think that’s where the magic happens.

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

I think that’s where the connection happens.

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

So I have a middle schooler as well, so – same age as Celia. And we get in this… it’s a good pattern, but we talk about our days.

José Villalba:

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown:

And we’re like, “How’s your day?”

“It was good.”

“How’s your day?”

“It was good.” There’s not, like, a lot of meat that comes from that.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

So I’m also a nerd, and so I was like, googling how to talk to your middle schooler. Not, not exactly.

José Villalba:

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Um, but I’m curious, what are three good things that have happened to you lately?

José Villalba:

Huh. It’s tough to sort through three good things ’cause I think I’ve had a lot. And I realize-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… you’re asking for any, so I’m, I’m trying not to prioritize them.

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s good, though. That there’s-

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… so many.

José Villalba:

(laughs) So a good thing that happened lately is Rachel and I got to spend some quality time without the children-

Shea Kidd Brown:

That’s important.

José Villalba:

… or the dogs.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs) That’s important too.

José Villalba:

Uh, we don’t have a lotta time together. And it’s just because of my work and also her jobs. I only have one job. Rachel’s got, like, 17 jobs.

Shea Kidd Brown:

(laughs)

José Villalba:

Volunteer here, volunteer there. She’s a speech-language pathologist. So we gotta chance to travel to Venice for a few days-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

… just her and I.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Nice.

José Villalba:

That was a great thing that happened.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

The second great thing was that Celia graduated from the eighth grade.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Oh, exciting.

José Villalba:

And so that is very, very exciting. And it’s neat because when Celia graduates, you’re teleported back to Jacob’s eighth-grade graduation-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… and you’re teleported to Alex’s kindergarten graduation.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm. All the memories.

José Villalba:

And so a-… so those memories are something that has happened recently, and so that’s been great. And then a third really great thing that happened recently is I planted a flower for my mom.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Oh, beautiful. Aw.

José Villalba:

Yeah. So it’s a… My dad passed away, as I mentioned, four years ago.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

And she’s got me down the street; she’s got my brother down the street as well. My… We all live here now, quote, unquote, “In the triad.”

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

… to family.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

I’m hopeful for people’s general disposition for solving problems.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Say more.

José Villalba:

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

Some tinker in a maker space, like at Wake Forest WakerSpace.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right. Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

Some tinker mentally. And ultimately, human beings would rather be, in general, in a better place than a worse place.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm.

José Villalba:

We’re in a really tough place right now.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Yeah.

José Villalba:

Particularly around the issues that you and I deal with on the daily. But I do have hope. I have hope in this generation of kids our age, and by that I mean the ones that you and I live with-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Right.

José Villalba:

… and also the students on this campus and campuses like Wake. That natural human disposition towards solving problems and getting out of a place that one would rather not be in-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… that gives me hope for the future.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown:

José Villalba:

You’re welcome.

Shea Kidd Brown:

We recorded-

José Villalba:

You’re welcome.

Shea Kidd Brown:

… our first podcast.

José Villalba:

I don’t wanna be the last word, but this has been great.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Well, you can be-

José Villalba:

I mean, this-

Shea Kidd Brown:

… the last word.

José Villalba:

… this… Well, I mean, this has been fantastic. I also got a chance to connect with you, which is always awesome. But also in a way that- that’s free from the usual-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Mm-hmm.

José Villalba:

… fast-paced hustle and bustle.

Shea Kidd Brown:

Absolutely.

José Villalba:

And so this has been a privilege. This has been an unearned privilege to sit and just talk to you-

Shea Kidd Brown:

Wow.

José Villalba:

… for a bit. Thank you, Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown:

It’s equally a privilege for me. Thank you.

Mary-Anna Bailey: