Kidd You Not!

Shea Kidd Brown (00:04):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea and I’m thrilled to introduce today’s guest. Chase Clark is a current junior at Wake Forest, who is studying African American studies and communications, and is on the pre-law track. Chase is a North Carolina native who hails from Colfax. At Wake Forest she is actively engaged in a number of student organizations, including serving as president of the Black Student Alliance. She’s a tour guide ambassador, President’s Aide, and a resident advisor. She also hosts her own podcast, and is the founder of a nonprofit. We have a lot of ground to cover, as you can see. So, let’s begin. So, hello.

Chase Clark (00:45):

Hi. How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (00:46):

Welcome. I’m good, thank you for asking.

Chase Clark (00:48):

I’m glad. Of course.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:48):

How are you doing?

Chase Clark (00:50):

I’m doing pretty good. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:51):

Well it’s always good to see you.

Chase Clark (00:53):

Good to see you, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:54):

I, some of my guests I’ve, I’m getting to know for the first time-

Chase Clark (00:56):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:57):

… but I’m fortunate to get to know you from the very beginning.

Chase Clark (00:59):

(laughs) Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:00):

And see you just thriving as a student leader, and I’m just so excited that we have a chance just focused time to talk again, and for me to dig into your story ’cause I’ve gotten bits and pieces-

Chase Clark (01:11):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

… along the way. But to dig in, so a familiar place that I always go, you’re probably gonna know what the question is.

Chase Clark (01:17):

I think I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:18):

What is the question? (laughs)

Chase Clark (01:18):

Where is home for you? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:23):

Yes. (laughs) Where is home for you? So, curious where home is-

Chase Clark (01:24):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:25):

… and second part is just what that means to you.

Chase Clark (01:27):

That’s actually a phenomenal question because I was just talking to someone, I think it was Donell Moore from the OPCD.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:32):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (01:34):

And so I said, “Yes, I’m from High Point.” And he says, “Okay, “High Point, what high school?” And so I’m like, “I went to Southwest High School.” And he is like, “Okay.” And so he tells me he’s from Greensboro. So, then I was like, “Okay, wait.”

Shea Kidd Brown (01:43):

(laughs)

Chase Clark (01:44):

So, then you might actually know where I’m from. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:46):

Right.

Chase Clark (01:46):

I told him I’m from Colfax, North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:49):

Oh, I know Colfax.

Chase Clark (01:49):

.. but if you walk around anywhere on campus, usually if you ask someone where I’m from, they’ll either say High Point or Greensboro-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:55):

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chase Clark (01:56):

So, usually when someone’s from around the area, I’m like, “Oh, actually you might know-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:01):

I can, I can tell you the real place.

Chase Clark (02:01):

I can tell you the real place now. And then they’re like, “Oh, my gosh. Yeah, Farmer’s Market.” And I’m like, “Yep, that’s me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (02:06):

So really, really, I’m from Colfax, North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:07):

Okay.

Chase Clark (02:08):

… but I do definitely claim both High Point and Greensboro, I’d say both simultaneously-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:12):

Same thing.

Chase Clark (02:13):

… played really big roles in my life, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:14):

Yeah. And you’ve always lived in North Carolina?

Chase Clark (02:16):

I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:16):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (02:17):

I’ve always lived in North Carolina, which has been fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

So, what does home mean to you?

Chase Clark (02:21):

Home has always just been where you feel the most love and support, that physical place of home is in Colfax, but that’s also just where I’ve been so fortunate to have had my family there. I have a younger brother, I have a older sister, both my parents, and that makes up our home. I tend to be the more rambunctious and go with the flow, and free spirited, fly by the seatof their pants person in the family. And so those are pretty accurate. So yes-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:45):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (02:46):

… I’m a middle child, so I-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

Yeah, I’m also middle child, so [inaudible 00:02:49]-

Chase Clark (02:48):

Oh, look at that. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:50):

… and I have two brothers.

Chase Clark (02:50):

Ooh.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

But the unique thing, I don’t think I have the characteristics of a middle child-

Chase Clark (02:55):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:55):

… not that that’s a bad characteristic-

Chase Clark (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

… but we are really far apart in age.

Chase Clark (02:59):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

So, we’re almost like only children-

Chase Clark (03:02):

Mm.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:02):

… ‘because my older brother’s seven years older-

Chase Clark (03:04):

Okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:05):

… and my younger brother’s 11 and a half years younger.

Chase Clark (03:06):

Wow.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:07):

I’m more of the older sister, even though I’m not the oldest-

Chase Clark (03:11):

Yeah. No.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

I take on that, it is [inaudible 00:03:12]-

Chase Clark (03:13):

We also have a really big gap in our-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Oh, do you?

Chase Clark (03:15):

… siblinghood, too. Yeah. So, my sister’s 30, I’m 20-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:16):

Okay.

Chase Clark (03:17):

… and my brother just turned 15, so we have like (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Oh, so that is-

Chase Clark (03:19):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Yeah. We, we are similar.

Chase Clark (03:19):

We have a big gap-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (03:22):

… so that’s really cool actually.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:23):

Yeah. But I would have to say I was born a rule follower, so-

Chase Clark (03:28):

Gotcha. And that’s a good thing. And you know what? My mom’s gonna hear this back, and she’s gonna agree with free spiritedness of it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Uh-huh.

Chase Clark (03:32):

… but she’s also gonna say, “Well, no Chase, there’s a lot of times in which I’ve called you a nerd-“

Shea Kidd Brown (03:37):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (03:37):

… “just because you have followed the rules very, very closely.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:40):

Yeah. So, yeah.

Chase Clark (03:41):

So, I can deviate in some ways too. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:42):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. In Colfax, what was childhood like for you?

Chase Clark (03:46):

Ooh. I think about that often. I keep a whole bunch of pictures of myself as a child in my phone just to look at it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:53):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (03:53):

… and be like, “Look how fun.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (03:55):

… “Look how fun and free childhood was.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:58):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (03:58):

It was defined by a lot of, I’ll say love a lot ’cause I think that’s just something-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (04:03):

… that’s very central to our family, and how we choose to like, guide and lead ourselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:08):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (04:08):

Even when my dad just pulled his 12 hour shift, he’s coming home, he’s making dinner-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:13):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (04:13):

… he’s saying, “Hey, what’s up? Do you need help with homework?” And usually if it was math, I totally did.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:17):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (04:18):

It looked like my mom asking me like what I want it to be, but not only in a like, what do you wanna do kind of way-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:25):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (04:25):

… but really asking critical questions about like, “Why do you wanna do these things? What are interesting to you?” And many ways like opening up the door for me to think about what is interesting to me? Why? And then-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:35):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (04:36):

… letting me just explore so many different things. I did a lot of different activities growing up, which I laugh at all the time. I did karate, and I feel like I did it for two days-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (04:46):

… ’cause I just was like, “This isn’t the thing, but-“

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

It was not.

Chase Clark (04:49):

… no, it was not.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

Of course. Yeah. (laughs)

Chase Clark (04:51):

And my parents often make jokes about my very short stint in soccer, which I feel like most kids kind of try soccer out-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:57):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (04:57):

… and you know, I didn’t even chase the ball, it was much worse.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Okay.

Chase Clark (05:01):

There’s one picture of me in my soccer jersey, and I’m picking flowers.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:05):

That was gonna be my next question. (laughs)

Chase Clark (05:06):

(laughing)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

Were you the one picking the lil-

Chase Clark (05:08):

… I was the one picking the flowers-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:10):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (05:10):

… and then I get carried off the field by my dad.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

Oh.

Chase Clark (05:13):

But you know, so soccer was also very short-lived-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:15):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (05:15):

… but I did dance for a while, and played instruments. So, they were just very like welcoming to all kinds of different ideas. Growing up with my little brother, though we were a little bit further away in age, we’ve always been really close friends. My older sister kind of in a similar way, just being together and being in community with one another-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (05:34):

… so childhood for us to say that it was just defined by like, really radical love and support-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (05:39):

… would be, I think, a big understatement.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

I love that.

Chase Clark (05:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:42):

Well, and I love that you define what that is. Love is this big word, just like home-

Chase Clark (05:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:47):

… is a heavy word.

Chase Clark (05:47):

Very much so.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

So, to be able to talk about intentionality as it relates to hard work-

Chase Clark (05:52):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:52):

and acts of service, to helping you to be curious to music,

Chase Clark (05:56):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:56):

sounds like a lot of time-

Chase Clark (05:58):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (05:58):

You guys spent a lot of time together, and-

Chase Clark (05:58):

Very much so.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:01):

Those are things that can’t be bought. Those are things that make a lot of sense when you know you-

Chase Clark (06:04):

(laughing)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

… and like, how thoughtful and creative you are. Given that curiosity and that home of love that you had, what did stick? So, you said a lot of things-

Chase Clark (06:14):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:15):

… were kind of thrown your way.

Chase Clark (06:16):

Yeah. I would say that in hindsight now, you know, I just began to think back about some of the things that, even though I didn’t stick with everything, I could always find like, “Okay, I really like these things.” Out of different activities I would do, I do know that I loved to talk. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:31):

Did you get in trouble-

Chase Clark (06:31):

I did.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:31):

… for talking?

Chase Clark (06:33):

A couple times.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:34):

Did you?

Chase Clark (06:34):

Yeah. It paid off. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:35):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (06:36):

So, I love to talk, and I love to make people laugh and to be in community with people, and that’s something that I’ve always really enjoyed.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:43):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (06:43):

So, when I was in the second grade, my longest standing activity, I don’t think I could ever be a, founded my nonprofit, Chase’s Chance.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (06:51):

So, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:51):

You were in the second grade?

Chase Clark (06:52):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:53):

I didn’t realize that you were that young.

Chase Clark (06:53):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:53):

Wow.

Chase Clark (06:55):

I forget about it myself sometimes too ’cause it’s just super interesting. And I think that kinda goes back to what I was talking about as far as just like, love and support-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (07:04):

… of two parents. And I come to you and I’m like, “I don’t know what this is, really. I don’t know the concept of a nonprofit, but like I wanna do this thing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

I wanna do it.

Chase Clark (07:11):

And so they jumped in with both feet, and for it to have lasted as long as it has, and to manifest into the things that it has.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:19):

Mm-hmm. Tell me more about it-

Chase Clark (07:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:20):

… because I was gonna ask you about it and-

Chase Clark (07:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:24):

… it came up just very naturally.

Chase Clark (07:25):

So, it’s a really, I’m gonna use the word funny a lot ’cause I think laughing is important.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

(laughs)

Chase Clark (07:30):

Funny, being funny is important to me. But when I was in the second grade, I remember we did this project. Our teacher came to us and she’s like, “I want us to do a fun exploration of the grossest part of the body.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

The grossest?

Chase Clark (07:42):

The grossest.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:43):

Okay.

Chase Clark (07:43):

So, second-year-old Chase was like, “It’s gonna have to be the mouth-“

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

(laughing)

Chase Clark (07:47):

… “nothing’s gonna beat it, it’s just really nasty, I just don’t like it at all.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:50):

You don’t like the mouth?

Chase Clark (07:51):

No. Just wasn’t fun at the time, which is-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:53):

I wish I could see her face. (laughs)

Chase Clark (07:55):

(laughs) It wasn’t a good place for me, which is ironic ’cause later in life I was like, “I totally wanna be a dentist,” so-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:00):

That is funny.

Chase Clark (08:01):

… and my mom has always been a big proponent of, if you’re doing a project, just go above and beyond.”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:06):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:06):

Make it unbelievably good, be creative-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:09):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:09):

… and do it to your fullest extent. And so when thinking about how I could do this project to the fullest extent, other than making a PowerPoint, and really fun and put animations and fun little clip art on it. She was like, “You know, you know a lot of dentists, why not reach out-“

Shea Kidd Brown (08:22):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (08:22):

… “ask if you can pass out some dental hygiene items to your classmates?”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:26):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:26):

And so that’s what we did. We had a dentist who went to our church, asked her like, “Do you have anything left over?”

Shea Kidd Brown (08:32):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:33):

She was like, “Yeah.” So, I was able to get that connected, pass it out at the end of class. And then I had some of my classmates come back to me and asked if we have anything more.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:41):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:42):

So, that afternoon or that week, I went to my parents and I was like, “Okay, let’s just get all the toothbrushes and give them away.” They were like, “Not exactly-“

Shea Kidd Brown (08:49):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (08:50):

… “this is not how this works.” And so I often say that that was like my first real interaction with what like inequality looks like-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (08:57):

… or economic inequality more specifically.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:59):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (09:00):

And that’s where I began to think about the fact that everyone doesn’t have the same access to things-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:04):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (09:04):

… even toothbrushes.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Right.

Chase Clark (09:06):

So, from there, all of these things that some of my classmates were beginning to not be able to do, as in going to field trips or not getting the same lunches as me-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:15):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (09:16):

… or not having toothbrushes still became very, very apparent. And so going to my parents after that, following up with questions like, “Okay, what do we do now?”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (09:25):

“Like, I don’t have any money,” (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:27):

Right. (laughs)

Chase Clark (09:27):

… “what can we do now?” Parents were really, really again supportive in figuring out how can we make this concept, dream, idea something that can be real and tangible. And so it started very, very elementary just as I did, with we would collect different aluminum cans-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (09:44):

… put them in a bag near the back door, and we would just collect them till the bag got full. And then after that I started to find bigger issues that I wanted to address, which at that time was, I just really wanted to make sure that people had school supplies, and were able to go to these field trips.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:01):

Mm-hmm.

Chase Clark (10:01):

My mom and my dad were like, “These small grocery bags are not really gonna cut it, it’s not giving you a lot. So, why don’t you just ask the community?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:08):

Hmm.

Chase Clark (10:09):

And that was a really tall ask-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:10):

Yeah.

Chase Clark (10:11):

… for me at that time, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:12):

And how old were you then?

Chase Clark (10:13):

I was still around third grade-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:15):

Okay.

Chase Clark (10:15):

… or so, that’s when I began to go out into, I started with my church community, just asking them, “Hey, all these aluminum cans that you have, just collect them.” And I still look back, and I laugh at it and marvel at it today because it seemed like every Sunday we would just have a porch full-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:31):

Of cans.

Chase Clark (10:32):

… of cans. If a stranger just came into our house and was like, “Why?”

Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

What are you doing? (laughs)

Chase Clark (10:36):

“What is this?” Like, it probably looked very odd to the friends that I had coming over-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:40): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (10:40): … to visit, but we were very intentional about reaching out to the community and asking those- Shea Kidd Brown (10:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (10:44): … people to donate aluminum cans, which they did. Shea Kidd Brown (10:46): All in. Chase Clark (10:47): So, we would take them to a recycling, and then they would give us a couple dollars back- Shea Kidd Brown (10:51): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (10:51): … and then we would just turn it around just like that. And as I continued to grow up and I’d moved schools a lot, about every two years I’d change to a different school. So, I would find new things there- Shea Kidd Brown (11:01): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:01): … and meet new people, and then the need began to grow. And then around sixth grade, I decided that I wanted to become partnered with Make-A-Wish and sponsor a wish, and so that’s when I did my biggest fundraiser ever. After figuring out that sponsoring a wish was about $6,000, I was like, “Okay mom, I don’t think this is gonna work-” Shea Kidd Brown (11:19): We need, we need more than cans. Chase Clark (11:19): We need to do a lot more than cans. So, that was like my first real foray- Shea Kidd Brown (11:23): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:23): … into like major fundraising, and having a cause, and we’re zeroed in on it. Shea Kidd Brown (11:28): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:28): One thing that I’ve always really enjoyed about Chase’s Chance though, is that in the same way that I often jumped around from activity, I wanted it to be something where I didn’t have to focus the scope only on one cause. Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): Yeah. Chase Clark (11:40): I really liked being able to talk to people, see what the issue was- Shea Kidd Brown (11:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (11:44): … and be able to support it. And then as I got a little bit older, I was able to say, okay, a lot of these projects that I’m supporting have a very special attention to young people- Shea Kidd Brown (11:53): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (11:53): … and the needs of young people, the youth. And it might’ve been a nature of, I was just in those communities, so it was easy to address. But being able to talk to so many young people as a friend and as a nonprofit founder (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (12:05): Yeah. Chase Clark (12:06): … was really, really crucial. And being able to understand that my passion lied in understanding why all youth weren’t able- Shea Kidd Brown (12:12): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:12): … to get the same things, get the same treatment- Shea Kidd Brown (12:15): Yeah. Chase Clark (12:15): … and how that even expanded beyond the classroom- Shea Kidd Brown (12:18): Sure. Chase Clark (12:18): … like how that expanded beyond how you saw yourself. So, Chase’s Chance has been a really amazing project in that it’s taught me a lot about the world. But more than that, I’ve just been very gracious for all the communities that I’ve met- Shea Kidd Brown (12:31): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:31): … and the communities that I’ve made. Shea Kidd Brown (12:32): Yeah. Chase Clark (12:33): And so it’s been really great for that. Shea Kidd Brown (12:34): I love that. So with the wish, what did you end up doing? Chase Clark (12:38): Yeah. So, we ended up raising over the amount, and it was like almost surreal. I remember going to brunch after the end of the, you know, giving year- Shea Kidd Brown (12:47): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:48): … and everyone who sponsored a wish was there. And I remember being there with my mom and my grandparents, my dad, and I think my little brother and my aunt. And having to pinch myself- Shea Kidd Brown (12:58): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (12:59): … so many times over, like we really did it same way. It also felt really surreal and complicated in my young mind because (laughs) my mom always laughs at me but always been hard to be in those rooms and not be able to have everyone that made that possible with me. Shea Kidd Brown (13:14): Mm-hmm. Happen, happen. Right. What you’ve described is community-based, always. Chase Clark (13:17): Yeah, very much so. Shea Kidd Brown (13:18): Yeah. Chase Clark (13:19): And so I’ve had to learn how to kinda take the community with me- Shea Kidd Brown (13:22): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (13:22): … no matter where I go. And make sure that it’s acknowledged that so many people make a lot of the things that I do possible. And I’m just glad to be kind of like the bridge between the two. Shea Kidd Brown (13:31): Yeah. Chase Clark (13:31): So, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (13:32): That’s incredible. Chase Clark (13:33): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (13:34): Um, I love watching various stories about- Chase Clark (13:37): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (13:37): … wishes and even have been connected to people on social media- Chase Clark (13:42): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (13:42): … who benefited from that. And did you get to meet the person? Chase Clark (13:42): I didn’t get to meet. He was a little boy, but his wish was to go to Disney World- Shea Kidd Brown (13:47): Oh, wow. Chase Clark (13:48): … So, I do remember that, and it was really great. We got a package back with a picture of him- Shea Kidd Brown (13:53): Hmm. Chase Clark (13:53): … and his wish, and he wrote a little note about some of the things that he enjoyed most at Disney World. So, I do have that still. But since then we’ve donated over $300,000 in just support. Shea Kidd Brown (14:05): Wow. Chase Clark (14:06): So, that’s been big community push and drive. And so this year it’s been interesting, and as I’ve been in college, it’s been interesting (laughs) to kind of move- Shea Kidd Brown (14:13): (laughing) Chase Clark (14:14): … at it a little bit more. And as I’ve talked to some students on campus about like, what kind of needs do you have- Shea Kidd Brown (14:19): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (14:20): … as a student? And even some of my friends at other universities, and getting the chance to study abroad taught me a lot about how much that costs. Shea Kidd Brown (14:28): Hmm. (laughs) Chase Clark (14:28): So, these past few years we’ve been really into supporting students with extracurricular opportunities- Shea Kidd Brown (14:34): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (14:34): … making sure that you have what you need when it comes time to go into that job. Shea Kidd Brown (14:38): Yeah. Chase Clark (14:38): A lot of, um, students have been requesting money to put towards professional development clothes, which is one thing I really enjoy about Wake- Shea Kidd Brown (14:44): That is right. Yeah. Chase Clark (14:45): … because this grant is built in. For a lot of students, either they don’t know about that at their own school- Shea Kidd Brown (14:49): Right. Right. Chase Clark (14:50): … or you know, they don’t have that opportunity. So, it’s been great to again, bridge that gap- Shea Kidd Brown (14:54): Right. Chase Clark (14:54): And make sure that they have what they need and feel supported. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:59): So, do you have any visions for what’s next- Chase Clark (15:00): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (15:01): … for Chase’s Chance? Chase Clark (15:02): I think one of my biggest goals as far as Chase’s Chance is concerned, and one thing that I’ve always really hoped that it does, even if I end it tomorrow, is that it just shows people the power of community- Shea Kidd Brown (15:15): Hmm. Chase Clark (15:15): … and that Chase could theoretically be anyone. Shea Kidd Brown (15:18): Sure. Chase Clark (15:18): You could do this, too. I hope more than anything, that it just continues to empower specifically- Shea Kidd Brown (15:22): Hmm. Chase Clark (15:23): … the youth to step out and do what you want to do- Shea Kidd Brown (15:27): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:27): … and do it well, and support others and be in community with others ’cause I think that all of those components really make up a good life- Shea Kidd Brown (15:34): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:35): …. and a good human being. Yeah, I would love to just walk around and give people $20,000 scholarships- Shea Kidd Brown (15:41): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:41): … for the rest of life though- Shea Kidd Brown (15:42): That would be amazing. (laughs) Chase Clark (15:43): Yeah, i- it would. But it’s been really interesting also to balance like fundraising, being a student (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (15:49): Right. Chase Clark (15:49): … running a nonprofit (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (15:49): Yeah. Chase Clark (15:51): … So, that’s kind of interesting to juggle as well. Shea Kidd Brown (15:53): Yeah. I have lots of questions about that. (laughs) Chase Clark (15:53): Yeah. Okay. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (15:56): So, so let’s start with Wake. You talked a lot about your childhood and your nonprofit- Chase Clark (16:01): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:02): … and just started to dabble into balance. Chase Clark (16:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:05): So, tell me about your decision to choose Wake Forest- Chase Clark (16:08): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:08): … it’s not super far away. Chase Clark (16:10): Yeah. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (16:10): … uh, from home, but can feel like a world away- Chase Clark (16:13): Definitely. Shea Kidd Brown (16:14): … just because of our residential experience. Chase Clark (16:15): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (16:16): What was that deciding process like for you? Chase Clark (16:19): Mm-hmm. The college process is also something I really pinched myself about because I don’t think that if things went as I initially planned, I would be in some of the places that I am, or even be the person that I am. Shea Kidd Brown (16:33): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (16:33): College was always something that my parents were like, “Okay, this is the one thing, let’s kind of stick with, (laughs) let’s kind of be thinking about it.” And- Shea Kidd Brown (16:39): Right. You’re probably also thinking about that in a second grade, (laughs) that’d be my guess. Chase Clark (16:41): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, from a very young age, I remember wanting to go to college more so from an academic sense- Shea Kidd Brown (16:48): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (16:48): … I’ve always just really liked learning. I won’t say I always loved school as much- Shea Kidd Brown (16:53): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (16:53): … but I loved just the process of learning about things. Shea Kidd Brown (16:55): Sure. Chase Clark (16:56): And so college seemed like a easier, simple- Shea Kidd Brown (16:58): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (16:59): … transition into that, to continue that learning. And so when I started (laughs) my college application process, it was nothing like I thought. In second grade I was kind of like, “Okay, this is a lot. This is applications-” Shea Kidd Brown (17:10): Yeah. Chase Clark (17:10): … “and this is essays, and now we’re wondering about scholarships and money.” Shea Kidd Brown (17:14): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (17:14): “Okay, well, do I wanna be far? Do I wanna be near?” Shea Kidd Brown (17:17): Right. Chase Clark (17:17): And so as much as I really wish that I thought more intentionally about those questions, I totally didn’t. Shea Kidd Brown (17:22): Yeah. Chase Clark (17:23): I told my mom a few things, I said, “I don’t wanna apply to a lot of schools. I don’t know if I wanna be close or far, I just want to go to a good school. And I don’t want to pay a lot of debt, to be quite frank.” Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (17:35): And so I ended up applying to about five schools, most of them in the area with the furthest one being Spelman College in Atlanta- Shea Kidd Brown (17:41): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chase Clark (17:42): … which had been one of my dreams to attend since I was about 10. Shea Kidd Brown (17:45): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (17:46): And so I got into all five, and then I was faced with another hard decision- Shea Kidd Brown (17:50): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (17:51): … so I was like, “Wait, that wasn’t supposed to happen-” Shea Kidd Brown (17:54): Right. Chase Clark (17:54): … (laughs) “I was supposed to just get into the one-” Shea Kidd Brown (17:55): Right. Chase Clark (17:55): … “and just kind of go.” But it was great, I got into all five. And so then came the hard work- Shea Kidd Brown (18:00): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:00): … of figuring out, “Okay, Chase, where do you want to go?” Shea Kidd Brown (18:03): Right. Chase Clark (18:03): I remember going down to Atlanta, Georgia for Spelman’s admitted student day. And walking around, I fell in love with it- Shea Kidd Brown (18:10): Hmm. Chase Clark (18:11): … I was like, “Mom, let’s put down the check now today-” Shea Kidd Brown (18:12): I’m ready. (laughs) Chase Clark (18:13): … “let’s go.” And she was like, “Well, you don’t have your financial aid package yet.” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (18:16): (laughing) Chase Clark (18:17): So, we got that back and that would require a little bit more stretching than I think we were all prepared for. Shea Kidd Brown (18:23): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:23): And so I was like, “Okay, let’s take a step back. Let’s look at what is in front of us.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:27): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:28): Wake was always a very close place. And now again, looking at it in hindsight, I’m like, “Okay, I can see why.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:33): (laughing) Chase Clark (18:34): … “I can see.” Funnily enough when I was much younger, between a doctor and a dentist. Shea Kidd Brown (18:39): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:40): And so my mom enrolled me in a medical camp at Wake Forest Medical School- Shea Kidd Brown (18:44): Oh wow. Chase Clark (18:45): … way long ago. Shea Kidd Brown (18:45): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:46): I must have been middle school, high school-ish. Shea Kidd Brown (18:49): Okay. Chase Clark (18:49): And so I went to that camp, we got through like three days. And then we were on the anesthesiology portion of the camp. Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (18:57): We were supposed to be cutting something open, and I was like, “I don’t think this is what (laughs) I’m supposed to do anymore, this is really not fun-” Shea Kidd Brown (19:05): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (19:06): … “I do not like this.” Shea Kidd Brown (19:07): And what a gift to learn so early. Chase Clark (19:08): And it was a great gift- Shea Kidd Brown (19:09): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (19:10): … because wow, that was a lot, that was too much. Shea Kidd Brown (19:12): (laughing) Chase Clark (19:12): So, I almost didn’t finish that day, but I got through the camp. And then I ended up getting connected with Wake Forest again through the college launch program- Shea Kidd Brown (19:20): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (19:20): … which I did during COVID. So, about my 10th to 11th-ish grade years. Shea Kidd Brown (19:24): Okay. Chase Clark (19:24): Through that organization, I was able to connect with Thomas Ray, who’s in the admissions office- Shea Kidd Brown (19:29): Yeah. Chase Clark (19:29): … and I remember this one specific session that we had where he talked about, how do you craft your story for your essay? Shea Kidd Brown (19:35): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (19:35): And you know, what kind of things are you looking for in a school? And so when it was time to pick schools, I ended up finding my notes from that day, and it was talking about all the things that Wake had. And my mom had encouraged that I write a list of all the things that I’m kinda looking for, and those kind of perfectly matched. Shea Kidd Brown (19:54): Oh! Chase Clark (19:54): So, then- Shea Kidd Brown (19:54): Your mom, she- Chase Clark (19:55): She’s really smart. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (19:55):

… she’s on s- on something. Chase Clark (19:56): Yeah, was. And so the financial aid came through and I was like, “Wait, this looks actually like a really great situation.” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (20:02): Hmm. Chase Clark (20:03): So, that’s ultimately how I ended up picking Wake, and so that was a really long journey, but- Shea Kidd Brown (20:08): Yeah. Chase Clark (20:08): … as I look back over life, I’m like, “Okay, that kind of makes a lot of sense.” Shea Kidd Brown (20:11): It all makes sense. Chase Clark (20:12): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:12): An important part of your journey is also choice- Chase Clark (20:16): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (20:16): … and having to make hard decisions. Chase Clark (20:19): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:19): A lot of times in life we wanna just put it in front of me- Chase Clark (20:21): Mm-hmm. Right. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): … (laughs) so I don’t have to think, but it sounds like that really forced you to ask the right questions- Chase Clark (20:26): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:27): … and really dig deep in terms of what do I want- Chase Clark (20:30): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:30): … in a college experience? And you’ve made so much of it and it’s not over. But we had coffee, I will never forget- Chase Clark (20:36): (laughs) yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:37): … um, in the ZSR, and you were brand new. So, and at that point you were not declared, but since that time of thinking about anesthesiology and dentistry (laughs)- Chase Clark (20:46): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:46): … your interests have changed a little bit. (laughs) Chase Clark (20:49): (laughs) A lot of ways. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:49): So, talk to me about that. Chase Clark (20:51): Yeah. So, coming in to college, I actually kind of knew at that point one of the things that I wanted to do. I knew for sure that I wanted to major in communications- Shea Kidd Brown (21:01): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:02): … because before coming in, I had actually created a podcast, the Renaissance Project: a Black Girls Movement. And so through that podcast, I just explored my life honestly- Shea Kidd Brown (21:12): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:12): … through the pandemic, all the way up until, I think, about my first couple of weeks of college. And I talked about things that were difficult, what was going well with life. I talked to a bunch of other community members- Shea Kidd Brown (21:23): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:24): … about their stories, and I got to talk to my mom a bunch of times, which was really fun. And my favorite episode from that, was talking to my grandfather- Shea Kidd Brown (21:31): Hmm. Chase Clark (21:31): … about his journey and his experiences- Shea Kidd Brown (21:34): Wow. Chase Clark (21:34): … which I really, really cherish. And so happy at younger Chase for doing that- Shea Kidd Brown (21:38): Yeah. Chase Clark (21:39): … that was good idea, Chase. Shea Kidd Brown (21:40): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (21:40): After being able to look at the production side of podcasting, getting it to write and create, and just dream up this world and story tell, I was like, “Okay, communications is what I wanna do.” Shea Kidd Brown (21:52): Yeah. And I remember you saying that. (laughs) Chase Clark (21:53): Yeah. (laughs) So- Shea Kidd Brown (21:54): We were connected. Chase Clark (21:55): Yes. So, that’s what I wanted to do, for sure. Shea Kidd Brown (21:57): So, I, I think I mentioned Dr. Steve Giles that day- Chase Clark (22:00): Yeah. Yep, you did. Shea Kidd Brown (22:00): And, yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (22:01): You totally did, that’s right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:02): Yeah. Chase Clark (22:02): So, I knew that for sure. And then I knew at that time I wanted to major in Spanish as well- Shea Kidd Brown (22:08): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (22:08): … I wanted to double major. And the Spanish came from my senior year. I had just the best Spanish teacher ever- Shea Kidd Brown (22:15): Hmm. Chase Clark (22:15): … her name was Ms. Palmer. Even though I wasn’t that confident in Spanish, she was like, “Chase, you need to take my AP Spanish class.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:21): Hmm. Chase Clark (22:22): And she just hounded me until I did. And I was like, “Okay, you know, I’ll take it-” Shea Kidd Brown (22:26): Yeah. Chase Clark (22:26): … “but I’m not promising you that I’m gonna pass that exam, Ms. Palmer.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:29): Right. Chase Clark (22:29): So, I took the class, and I did actually better than I thought- Shea Kidd Brown (22:34): Hmm. Chase Clark (22:35): … and I think a big part of that was just the confidence that she just continuously- Shea Kidd Brown (22:38): Yeah. Chase Clark (22:38): … instilled into me. Shea Kidd Brown (22:40): Teachers are so- Chase Clark (22:41): So- Shea Kidd Brown (22:42): … critical, too. (laughs) Chase Clark (22:43): They really, really are. Shea Kidd Brown (22:44): Yeah. To your belief in, you know- Chase Clark (22:45): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (22:45): … what you can do. Chase Clark (22:46): Yeah. That’s really true. And so right before I came into Wake Forest, I saw that the African American studies program had just started and I was like, “Yes.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:54): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (22:54): … “I will do this for my minor, doesn’t matter what else I do-” Shea Kidd Brown (22:57): Right. Chase Clark (22:58): … “this is what’s gonna stay.” It was almost like a full 360 (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (23:01): Yeah. Chase Clark (23:02): … I was starting to take classes and then I was like, “Okay, wait, I need to change this whole structure around- Shea Kidd Brown (23:07): Hmm. Chase Clark (23:07): … “for African American studies, I just completely fell in love with it.” I had my first class, my introductory class with Professor Walker- Shea Kidd Brown (23:13): I remember. Chase Clark (23:14): … and I was like, “This is it.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:16): This is it. Chase Clark (23:17): … “I love this. Whatever this is- Shea Kidd Brown (23:18): Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (23:18): … “I love all of this.” So, I ended up kinda changing that structure to- Shea Kidd Brown (23:22): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (23:22): … Com, African American studies, minor in Spanish. Shea Kidd Brown (23:25): Yeah. Chase Clark (23:25): And then last year I had a really tough moment because I was beginning to kind of fall out of love with Spanish, not as a language or culture, but just the learning of it- Shea Kidd Brown (23:36): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (23:36): … I was like, “Okay, wait, this is not feeling like it did before.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:39): Yeah. Chase Clark (23:40): … “and I don’t really know what that means.” But I called my mom, I called my dad. My mom was like, “I think you should just stick with it.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:44): (laughing) Chase Clark (23:45): … “you know what I mean? You’ve gone this far, you might as well.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:46): Right. Chase Clark (23:47): But my dad really made me stop for a minute and be like, “Okay, well what if it’s just not what you wanna do anymore, and what if that’s okay?” And I was like, “You know what? That’s true.” So, I took a writing class with Professor Earhart, it was creative nonfiction. So, we read a lot of really amazing essays, and we wrote a lot. And that class I was like, “Okay, wait.” Again. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (24:08): (laughing) Chase Clark (24:08): “All of this is what I wanted, too.” Shea Kidd Brown (24:09): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:10): So, just the act of being able to write again- Shea Kidd Brown (24:13): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (24:13): … like I did for both podcasts before. And I’ve just always really loved writing anyway- Shea Kidd Brown (24:18): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:18): … and so just being able to write and again, be in community with people- Shea Kidd Brown (24:21): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (24:22): … who also really loved to write. And we were kind of just all nerds in that seven-person class, and we were just like- Shea Kidd Brown (24:27): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:27): … “I love what you did here.” Shea Kidd Brown (24:28): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:29): So, doing that was really great. So now (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (24:30): (laughs) Chase Clark (24:32): … a long, long journey, but now I’m a communications and African American studies double major with a minor in writing- Shea Kidd Brown (24:39): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:39): … and they all seem to really work together well. Shea Kidd Brown (24:41): Yeah. Chase Clark (24:41): And I appreciate that. Shea Kidd Brown (24:42): Yeah. That’s really good. Chase Clark (24:43): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:44): And again, it’s journey- Chase Clark (24:45): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:45): … it sounds like that whole thread of curiosity continued- Chase Clark (24:48): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (24:48): … because this time your mom’s like, “Stick with it.” Chase Clark (24:50): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (24:51): … and your dad saying… I don’t know if you find this, but sometimes we just stick with things because we said we would. Chase Clark (24:55): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:55): You know, as opposed to really asking the question, and being given the permission- Chase Clark (25:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:00): … you know, to have parents who say, “You can pause- Chase Clark (25:03): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:04): … “and really think about it.” And now to be in, I don’t know if you know the concept of flow, like- Chase Clark (25:08): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:09): … that’s when your brain in flow- Chase Clark (25:10): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:11): … probably when you’re writing, you get in this- Chase Clark (25:12): Hmm. Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:13): … concept, and it’s called flow. Chase Clark (25:14): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:15): And so nothing else matters in the world, you can just focus on that. Chase Clark (25:18): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:19): And It sounds like you’ve figured it out. Yeah. You have not strayed much at all from that first conversation we had. Chase Clark (25:25): (laughs) Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:26): So I, I, I remember you beaming. And I said, “Do you have Dr. Walker?” And you said, “Yes.” Chase Clark (25:30): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (25:31): And, so it’s special too, to find that so early- Chase Clark (25:34): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:34): … because I think sometimes we are fixated, we wanna do, and that, once you’re in the classes, you’re like, “Mm, maybe not.” Chase Clark (25:41): (laughs) Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:41): So your gift to be able to find those things so early- Chase Clark (25:44): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (25:45): … and be able to stick with them. And you still have the skills you’ve learned from Spanish- Chase Clark (25:48): For sure. Shea Kidd Brown (25:49): … but to focus on that. Chase Clark (25:51): African American studies, and I guess I will go back to the childhood question from earlier- Shea Kidd Brown (25:55): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (25:55): … was a really simple decision once I found out that it was something you could study- Shea Kidd Brown (25:58): [inaudible 00:25:59] Yeah. Chase Clark (25:59): … yeah. For all of my younger life, my mom was very insistent that we were gonna go on two trips every single year. We’re gonna go on one fun trip, we’re gonna go on one educational trip- Shea Kidd Brown (26:10): Hmm. Chase Clark (26:10): And so on a lot of those educational trips, it ended up being a lot of, we’re learning Black history. My favorite trip that we went on, we went to Alabama and we went to Birmingham and Selma- Shea Kidd Brown (26:21): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (26:21): … we got to walk across, formerly known as- Shea Kidd Brown (26:23): Pettus Bridge. Chase Clark (26:23): … the Edmund Pettus Bridge, and we got to see the 16th Street Baptist Church- Shea Kidd Brown (26:27): Wow. Chase Clark (26:27): … and sit on the steps. And so I think being able to be exposed to those experiences so early, just like piqued my interest. Shea Kidd Brown (26:34): Sure. Chase Clark (26:34): I tried a lot of different things in a lot of different things, I was like, “Ooh, this is not gonna work.” Shea Kidd Brown (26:39): (laughing) Chase Clark (26:39): … namely political science, just whoa that was- Shea Kidd Brown (26:42): Okay. That was not for you. Chase Clark (26:42): … that was hard. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (26:42): Yeah. Chase Clark (26:44): I, with all respect to political science majors- Shea Kidd Brown (26:45): (laughing) Chase Clark (26:46): … that was really difficult. Shea Kidd Brown (26:47): Really interesting as you describe it, those are things a lot of people read about- Chase Clark (26:50): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:51): and then they may visit. Chase Clark (26:51): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:52): And so to actually visit and then read about it- Chase Clark (26:54): Mm-hmm. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (26:55): … um, and have all those things coalesce- Chase Clark (26:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (26:57): … is really special. And you’ve been able to meld your academic interests with your personal interests, which is not always possible in college. Chase Clark (27:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (27:05): Like you don’t o- we’re not necessarily vocational- Chase Clark (27:07): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (27:08): … in nature. When we think about colleges, the process of learning- Chase Clark (27:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (27:11): … to then apply that to whatever field- Chase Clark (27:13): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (27:13): … but you’ve been able to do that with your podcast, and I wanna ask you a little bit more about. Chase Clark (27:16): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (27:17): And also we haven’t talked about BSA- Chase Clark (27:19): Oh, yeah. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (27:20): … that you’ve been really involved in the Black Student Alliance- Chase Clark (27:23): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:23): … and president this year. So, talk to me a little bit about that- Chase Clark (27:26): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (27:27): … and did you join that as a first year student? Chase Clark (27:29): So, I came to some BSA meetings, I came to some events. My love in first year was definitely with Wake Radio- Shea Kidd Brown (27:39): All right. Chase Clark (27:39): … and so I kind of just stuck with my radio station- Shea Kidd Brown (27:42): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (27:42): … and figuring out classes and then balancing the nonprofit- Shea Kidd Brown (27:46): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (27:46): … and the podcast at the time was like, that was just kind of my world- Shea Kidd Brown (27:50): [inaudible 00:27:50], yeah. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (27:50): … Yes. Very much so. And so I do remember though, the day that applications opened for BSA exec, I was sitting with a friend at the time, and I was like, “What if we signed up?” (laughs) And she was like, “Chase, are you gonna do another thing? Shea Kidd Brown (28:05): (laughing) Chase Clark (28:05): And I was like, “Me? I mean, yeah, yeah.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:07): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:08): … “Yeah. Let’s just sign up, let’s just try.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:10): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:10): And so I ended up, uh, running for Secretary unopposed, I think. And so I started as secretary- Shea Kidd Brown (28:18): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:18): … and then after, again, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (28:19): (laughing) Chase Clark (28:20): … community is just a big thing in my life after being- Shea Kidd Brown (28:21): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:21): … around the community, being able to talk to other students who had similar experiences. But not only that, go to the lounge and just like, relax- Shea Kidd Brown (28:30): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:30): … or laugh or have fun, have serious conversations, but also some really unserious ones, too. To have basically like a body of older sisters and older brothers and younger sisters and younger brothers that you can be a family with- Shea Kidd Brown (28:44): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:44): … essentially in this place that, like you were saying, for me, it doesn’t feel too, too far from home, but it can always feel like a different world sometimes. Shea Kidd Brown (28:51): Yeah. Chase Clark (28:52): And so I remember before Janeel graduated, she was the president before me- Shea Kidd Brown (28:57): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (28:57): … she pulled me to the side, we were at the MLK Day event. And she was like, “Have you ever thought about running for president?” And I was like, “No, Janeel, that-” Shea Kidd Brown (29:05): (laughing) Chase Clark (29:06): … “that hasn’t come up in my mind. No.” [inaudible 00:29:08] (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (29:08): I have a few things going on. Chase Clark (29:09): It was a busy time- Shea Kidd Brown (29:10): Yeah. Chase Clark (29:10): … we had just began the second semester, and I was like, “Mm-mm.” Shea Kidd Brown (29:12): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (29:13): … “No, I haven’t thought about that.” And she was like, “Well, why don’t you?” And I was like- Shea Kidd Brown (29:16): Yeah. I can just see her. Chase Clark (29:17): Yeah. And she’s like- Shea Kidd Brown (29:18):

And she’s convincing. (laughs) Chase Clark (29:18): She really is. Shea Kidd Brown (29:18): (laughing) Chase Clark (29:21): And so I was like, “Eh. I guess, I guess.” Then I guess as I began to watch her and just navigate her presidency- Shea Kidd Brown (29:28): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (29:28): I was like, “Okay, this seems like something I could do.” And then being in exec gave me, I guess, an inside scoop of like what was going on- Shea Kidd Brown (29:36): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (29:36): … in the inner workings of BSA. And so that let me begin to think about some things that I would like to do, implement, see- Shea Kidd Brown (29:43): Yeah. Chase Clark (29:44): … again, talking to people and seeing how they felt about things, what they wanted to do, see. So, then a couple of people had asked- Shea Kidd Brown (29:50): (laughing) Chase Clark (29:51): … and I was like, “Yeah, I guess I can’t fight it anymore-” Shea Kidd Brown (29:52): I’ll do this. Chase Clark (29:52): … “I guess I’ll do it.” But since then it’s been very, very challenging. It’s been a really quick crash course in leadership- Shea Kidd Brown (30:00): Yeah. Tell me more about that. Chase Clark (30:00): … and finances… Yeah. Even looking, I guess I’m not fully in that 20-20 hindsight position now- Shea Kidd Brown (30:06): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (30:07): … but looking at how I came into it, I think that I was confident in the experiences that I had, and how I understood them preparing me for- Shea Kidd Brown (30:16): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (30:16): … leading BSA, but in many ways I began, and BSA was like, “We’re gonna need a completely different set of skills.” (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (30:23): Hmm. Chase Clark (30:24): “We’re gonna need something different. We’re gonna need you to be a lot more organized than you’ve previously been-” Shea Kidd Brown (30:30): Okay. Chase Clark (30:30): … “first of all, we’re gonna need you to be a lot more shepherd of your time-” Shea Kidd Brown (30:33): Mm. Chase Clark (30:33): … “more so than anything else.” Shea Kidd Brown (30:35): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (30:35): (laughs) I think it also took a really big incredible, emotional commitment that I wasn’t necessarily prepared for. I remember at our Black Professional Forum last semester, Janeel was up at the podium, she was giving her closing remarks, and that was one of our like, last events of that year. And she just got emotional- Shea Kidd Brown (30:53): Mm. Chase Clark (30:53): … and I was like, “Oh, it’s gonna be like that?” But I guess I didn’t really understand the level to which it would be like that. Shea Kidd Brown (30:59): Sure. Chase Clark (30:59): And so having a really intimate opportunity to talk to so many people, really great places, and also some really vulnerable ones, too- Shea Kidd Brown (31:08): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (31:09): … almost having the weight of the responsibility of those stories- Shea Kidd Brown (31:11): Mm. Chase Clark (31:12): … it’s been a lot to kind of juggle. Shea Kidd Brown (31:14): To hold. Chase Clark (31:15): To hold. Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (31:15): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:16): And to figure out what to do with- Shea Kidd Brown (31:17): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:18): … and how can I actively make a change in this part of the world that I’m taking up right now- Shea Kidd Brown (31:22): Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (31:23): … but I’ve been incredibly grateful for all of the tools and resources that I’ve been given, in people- Shea Kidd Brown (31:29): (laughs) Chase Clark (31:30): … and in reading material. I have a friend from home, his name’s Elijah, he went to Morehouse. And so he’s been the absolute best, he was a really big student leader on their campus as well. Shea Kidd Brown (31:40): Oh, that’s awesome. Chase Clark (31:41): And so whenever I’m having a hard day, I am like, “I don’t know what to do.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:44): (laughing) Chase Clark (31:45): (laughs) And he’s like, “Okay, we’re gonna breathe.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:47): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:48): “I’m gonna send you some reading materials. I’m gonna send you some practice stuff. Let’s just work this out together.” Shea Kidd Brown (31:53): Yeah. Chase Clark (31:53): Knowing that my mom’s always a call away, my dad, they’re leaders in their own right. And then, of course, people on campus like Monique, she’s our advisor. Shea Kidd Brown (32:01): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (32:02): Shauna, she works (laughs) in Student Engagement- Shea Kidd Brown (32:04): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:04): … she’s been a big help, too. She’s asked me a lot of really hard questions- Shea Kidd Brown (32:07): (laughing) Chase Clark (32:07): … which she knows, but they’ve been important questions- Shea Kidd Brown (32:09): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:10): … and most of them are rooted in why are you doing this? Shea Kidd Brown (32:12): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:13): To which I’m usually like, “Shauna, why did you ask me that question?” (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (32:16): (laughing) Chase Clark (32:17): But also having really great student leadership on campus to also watch- Shea Kidd Brown (32:20): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:21): … and then of course, some upper leadership, too, that has been really, really helpful. But it’s just been a really big learning experience- Shea Kidd Brown (32:27): Yeah. Chase Clark (32:28): … but if nothing else, it’s taught me that no lesson is too small, and any person can teach you a lesson. Shea Kidd Brown (32:34): That’s true. Chase Clark (32:34): I remember going home, and my brother was like, “Okay, how’s it going?” And I was like, “Oh, it’s kinda difficult.” And he was like, “Why?” And I was explaining to him all kinds of stuff- Shea Kidd Brown (32:42): (laughing) Chase Clark (32:43): … that means nothing to him. And he was like, “Well, have you just tried listening?” And I was like, “Oh.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:47): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (32:48): You know, (laughs) “Mm. I haven’t tried that.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:51): Yeah. Yeah. Chase Clark (32:51): “Let me try that, I’ll go back to the drawing board.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:53): And sometimes… Yeah. And sometimes we just have to be reminded of- Chase Clark (32:54): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:55): … of, of that, or, you know, asking questions. Chase Clark (32:57): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:57): And you know, being in pol- positions of leadership. You do feel that weight of you carrying- Chase Clark (33:03): You do. Shea Kidd Brown (33:04): … whatever it is. Chase Clark (33:05): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:05): So for you and I have talked about belonging and what it’s like to be a student on campus. And I think about my role as creating a student experience that all students matter, belong, and thrive, Chase Clark (33:16): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:16): And it can feel when you have a bold, compelling vision, you, (laughs) you know- Chase Clark (33:20): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (33:21): … have that. And we all, we both know- Chase Clark (33:23): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:24): … that it’s just like you said, nothing with Chase’s Chance has happened without other people- Chase Clark (33:28): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (33:28): … and this is similar. Chase Clark (33:29): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:30): I think just positional leadership, sometimes we can forget that we still need people- Chase Clark (33:33): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:34): … we still need to ask questions, we still need to say, “I’m overwhelmed.” Chase Clark (33:37): Mm-hmm. [inaudible 00:33:38] Shea Kidd Brown (33:38): Just remember, you got lots of people, you have a village. Chase Clark (33:41): I will. I definitely will. Shea Kidd Brown (33:42): Yes. Yeah. Chase Clark (33:42): I’ve had to exercise a village more than ever- Shea Kidd Brown (33:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (33:44): … it’s midterms, and so this was a really big- Shea Kidd Brown (33:47): Yes. Chase Clark (33:47): … like foray into being like, “Okay guys- (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (33:49): Yeah. Chase Clark (33:50): … let’s all slow down, I need some help.” So- Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): That’s right. And just being able to be honest- Chase Clark (33:53): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (33:54): … what you’re feeling because I think, you could probably have a whole podcast on leadership, but the perception is this person in front has to have all the answers. But really, it is in community- Chase Clark (34:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:05): … and it’s also, people appreciate a person who doesn’t have it all together, (laughs) and just says, “I’m struggling this week-” Chase Clark (34:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:12): … “like, time out. You know, let’s take a pause.” Chase Clark (34:15): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:15): And so that’s a, a leadership lesson that I’ve had to learn. And I’m sure- Chase Clark (34:18): Well, thank you for passing it on. Shea Kidd Brown (34:19): – you, you have had to- Chase Clark (34:20): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:20): … and will as well. Chase Clark (34:21): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:21): But you’re doing a great job, I think- Chase Clark (34:22): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (34:23): … you know, I see you all over campus, you’re an RA- Chase Clark (34:25): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (34:25): … you’re involved in so many things. And efore we talk about that, I do wanna ask you, your role with BSA and others, being an RA, as I just mentioned- Chase Clark (34:34): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:35): … being on the radio station, having a podcast. Chase Clark (34:37): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (34:37): A lot of things point to this notion of community belonging. When you hear people talking to you or when you think about your own experience, what does belonging mean to you? And what do you hope are things that you can be a part of in creating that- Chase Clark (34:52): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:52): … climate around belonging? Chase Clark (34:53): Biggest lesson that I’ve learned from all of those commitments, but also just being a person myself, is just the value of being seen and heard. Shea Kidd Brown (35:05): Hmm. Chase Clark (35:05): Over the summer, I read a book… Actually, he’s coming to campus for the Face to Face- Shea Kidd Brown (35:09): Oh! Chase Clark (35:10): … so and I’m so excited. It was How to Know A Person by David Brooks. Shea Kidd Brown (35:13): Yes. Chase Clark (35:13): And that was a phenomenal book. Shea Kidd Brown (35:16): I have not read it yet, putting it on my list. Chase Clark (35:16): Yes, please do. It was actually one book that Elijah recommended to me- Shea Kidd Brown (35:20): Okay. Chase Clark (35:21): … and so I was like, “Okay, I found it at Target, 20% off.” Shea Kidd Brown (35:23): (laughing) Chase Clark (35:24): Can’t do better than that- Shea Kidd Brown (35:25): Right. Chase Clark (35:25): … so we’re gonna get it, we’re gonna try it. And I don’t think I expected for that book to change my worldview the way that it did. Shea Kidd Brown (35:32): Wow. Chase Clark (35:32): I think that it told me some things that I kind of already knew, but I think it explained it in a way that made the stakes of it much higher in a way- Shea Kidd Brown (35:39): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (35:40): … of listening to someone, but not just to respond- Shea Kidd Brown (35:43): Mm. Chase Clark (35:44): … which I kind of struggle with for sure, because I am definitely my mother’s child, and I like to just say, “Well, you know-” Shea Kidd Brown (35:48): (laughing) Chase Clark (35:49): … “that’s a great idea.” And I just like to kind of act. Come from a, a good place, sometimes people just want you to sit with them- Shea Kidd Brown (35:54): Yeah. And that’s human nature- Chase Clark (35:56): Um- Yeah. For sure. Shea Kidd Brown (35:57): … [inaudible 00:35:57] is to, to reflect back and act and do something- Chase Clark (35:59): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (35:59): … as opposed to just sitting with the information. Chase Clark (36:02): Sitting with the… Right. And then also how to just connect with people. I think that COVID kinda did a disservice in that it really made a lot of us used to disconnection- Shea Kidd Brown (36:11): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:11): … which at that time we had to kinda be a little bit more disconnected. And so thinking about the ways that we can bring people together, and have really great conversations, and create really great culture that people can come together around. Shea Kidd Brown (36:24): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (36:24): And so I think in terms of BSA, one thing that we’ve done really, really well is just talk to people- Shea Kidd Brown (36:30): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (36:31): … and then they know you, and then they’re like, “Okay, I’m just gonna go to this event, if nothing else to support- Shea Kidd Brown (36:35): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:36): … Chase, or Chelsea, or Darcy- Shea Kidd Brown (36:37): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (36:38): … or Taylor, or Cahnerr or, I’m not gonna name the whole exec- Shea Kidd Brown (36:40): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (36:40): … but just to come and be in community with them because they made me feel like I had value- Shea Kidd Brown (36:45): Mm. Chase Clark (36:45): … and I am supposed to be there. Shea Kidd Brown (36:47): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:47): Through being a RA, which has been another interesting thing going from 11 (laughs) residents to 31. Shea Kidd Brown (36:51): Yeah. Chase Clark (36:54): But one thing that a lot of residents have come back to me and said is just like, “I appreciated how you just saw me looking not great that day-” Shea Kidd Brown (37:00): Hmm Chase Clark (37:01): … “And you’ve said, ‘What’s up?’ I didn’t really-” Shea Kidd Brown (37:03): You noticed. Chase Clark (37:03): … You did. Shea Kidd Brown (37:04): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:05): And so that’s taught me a lot about just noticing people- Shea Kidd Brown (37:08): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:08): … taking a little bit of time in your day to just look around- Shea Kidd Brown (37:11): Hmm. Chase Clark (37:12): … check on your people, see how they’re doing. And not just as an obligation- Shea Kidd Brown (37:16): Right. Chase Clark (37:17): … but more so as something that you’re genuinely interested and invested in. And so I think that’s the biggest lesson I’ve got- Shea Kidd Brown (37:22): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:23): … from all of these different extracurricular opportunities, is just how to be a better connector. Shea Kidd Brown (37:30): Hmm. Chase Clark (37:30): How to talk to people well- Shea Kidd Brown (37:32): Yeah. Chase Clark (37:32): … and be in community and relationship with them well. One other lesson- Shea Kidd Brown (37:35): And it’s being mindful- Chase Clark (37:39): Very much so. Shea Kidd Brown (37:39): … of which you described as, didn’t mean to interrupt you. Chase Clark (37:39): No, you’re so fine. Shea Kidd Brown (37:40): Um, but just pausing enough to notice- Chase Clark (37:43): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (37:43): … and when we’re busy or when our heads are down, checking our phones- Chase Clark (37:46): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (37:46): … going from class or to the Pit or whatever, you miss those moments. Yeah. Chase Clark (37:49): You do. Yeah. And they’re very fleeting- Shea Kidd Brown (37:49): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (37:51): … they go very fast. Especially in college, which- Shea Kidd Brown (37:53): (laughing) Chase Clark (37:54): … a couple of years ago I was like, “Oh, when will this be over?” Shea Kidd Brown (37:57): I know, oh! Chase Clark (37:57): … but now I’m like, “Wait, this is almost over.” Shea Kidd Brown (37:59): I know. Chase Clark (38:00): So, having those moments of just break, rest, which give you a lot of opportunity and space to look around and really assess how everyone’s feeling, that’s been great. And then, yeah, I was gonna say, just went to a conversation, and it was a guest speaker that came from, the Center of Recall brought her here. Shea Kidd Brown (38:19): Hmm. Chase Clark (38:20): And she was a producer and she made her own show- Shea Kidd Brown (38:22): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:23): … called Manhunt on Apple TV. Shea Kidd Brown (38:25): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:25): And I asked her, “You know, in your line of work, how have you learned to advocate for yourself, or stand up for yourself-” Shea Kidd Brown (38:32): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:32): … “in those spaces?” And she gave me a, a great answer, and then at the end she was like, “And humor just always seems to help.” Shea Kidd Brown (38:37): (laughing) Chase Clark (38:38): A lot of times, you know, everyone thinks we have a lot of differences, but then you make them laugh- Shea Kidd Brown (38:42): Hmm. Chase Clark (38:42): … and it’s like, wait, we’re actually really similar- Shea Kidd Brown (38:44): Yeah. Chase Clark (38:45): … we both like to laugh and so- Shea Kidd Brown (38:46): That’s true. Chase Clark (38:47): … I’ve always just really loved walking through life and laughing- Shea Kidd Brown (38:49): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (38:50): … and making it a little bit lighter. And so I think that I’ve learned how much humor and just shared commonalities can just really make a world of difference- Shea Kidd Brown (38:59): Yeah. Chase Clark (38:59): … in how you’re connecting with people and making them feel welcomed. Shea Kidd Brown (39:02): Yeah. That’s good. Chase Clark (39:02): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (39:03): And connection really is just finding those moments- Chase Clark (39:05): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (39:05): Acknowledging you have a different lived experience growing up in Colfax, North Carolina than I do- Chase Clark (39:10): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (39:10): … in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, but as we talk about that, we, we both have a sense of home- Chase Clark (39:14): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (39:15): … we’ve, we’re both actually communication majors. Chase Clark (39:18): Yep. Shea Kidd Brown (39:18): You know, so you start to drill down, two Black women, certainly we have a lived experience that’s shared, but very different. And I know we built that connection that very first time- Chase Clark (39:26): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (39:27): … so that’s really special. Now, I cannot end the podcast before we talk about your podcast. (laughs) Chase Clark (39:32): Okay. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (39:32): So, you know, it is a little nerve-wracking interviewing someone who has their own podcasts. So- Chase Clark (39:38): Oh, I hope not. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (39:39): … I, I’m… Tell me quick, really quick, what your current podcast is, what you focus on, and what you’ve learned from podcasting because I need some tips. (laughs) Chase Clark (39:47): Okay. Well I’ve actually learned a lot from you too, so. Shea Kidd Brown (39:47): Oh, nice. Chase Clark (39:51): My other podcast is called chase @ wake, you can find it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It began as just a way to keep up and document things I was thinking and feeling throughout my collegiate journey. Shea Kidd Brown (40:03): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (40:03): I talk a little bit about changes in college lately, talked a lot about just navigating a space in a PWI- Shea Kidd Brown (40:10): Hmm. Chase Clark (40:11): … and how that can kind of f- feel sometimes. And then I’ve done a couple fun episodes with just friends, just talking about random things- Shea Kidd Brown (40:18): Just life. Chase Clark (40:19): Yeah, just life, which is a lot of what I’m doing anyways. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (40:23): (laughing) Chase Clark (40:23): So, it just happens that we have a mic there, we just laugh a little bit harder. Shea Kidd Brown (40:26): Yeah. And you produce and do everything yourself? Chase Clark (40:28): Yes. So, I write for it, produce it, edit it, upload it. Shea Kidd Brown (40:32): Wow. Chase Clark (40:32): Takes a lot of time- Shea Kidd Brown (40:32): That’s a lot. Chase Clark (40:33): … so I had to take a semester long break. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (40:35): Yeah. Chase Clark (40:36): But I’m excited because I made the decision to come back to it this past week, I actually had- Shea Kidd Brown (40:41): Oh, good. Chase Clark (40:41): … an impromptu tour with a family that came. Shea Kidd Brown (40:43): Okay. Chase Clark (40:44): And they asked me, “You know, what’s your name? What are you doing?” Shea Kidd Brown (40:46): (laughing) Chase Clark (40:47): And I was like, “Hi, I am Chase. I’m a communications major.” And I was doing the whole spiel- Shea Kidd Brown (40:51): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (40:51): … and their daughter who was actually on a tour was like, “Chase from chase @ wake?” And I was like, what? Shea Kidd Brown (40:55): Oh my gosh. Wow! (laughs) Chase Clark (40:58): (laughs) I was like, “Wait, um, yeah, that is me.” And she was like- Shea Kidd Brown (41:00): Oh my gosh. Chase Clark (41:00): … “I heard your podcast.” I was like, “Oh, did you really?” Shea Kidd Brown (41:03): That’s amazing. Chase Clark (41:04): Yes. And I’m a weeping willow, I cry over everything. Shea Kidd Brown (41:06): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (41:07): So, my tears were just forming in my eyes, I was like- Shea Kidd Brown (41:09): Ooh! Chase Clark (41:09): “Oh, okay.” She was like, “Yeah, you stopped making episodes.” I was like, “For you, I’ll get back.” Shea Kidd Brown (41:13): I will start back. Chase Clark (41:13): (laughs) I will go (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (41:13): I mean, isn’t that interesting how life just does- Chase Clark (41:17): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (41:17): … you know, presents these things? Yeah. Chase Clark (41:18): It definitely does. Shea Kidd Brown (41:19): It tells you what you do matters. Yeah. Chase Clark (41:21): Yes. It, it really does. And I needed it that day- Shea Kidd Brown (41:23): You know? Chase Clark (41:23): … so that was really great. And then podcasting is a bit of an expensive thing, but luckily we have the WakerSpace here-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:31): Yes. That’s where we are right now. Chase Clark (41:32): … and has everything set up for you. Shea Kidd Brown (41:33): Yeah. Chase Clark (41:34): It’s great, it’s a great resource. And so a lot of people talk about starting a podcast on campus and I’m like, “You should just start here.” Shea Kidd Brown (41:39): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (41:40): … “it is a great space to be. You have, you know, your soundproof room.” Shea Kidd Brown (41:42): Yeah. Chase Clark (41:42): It’s excellent. If you have a dream or an idea, like write it down, plan it well- Shea Kidd Brown (41:47): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (41:47): …consult some people, but like you can totally do it yourself. Do write notes before. There’s so many times that I started an episode and I was like, “I’m just gonna do this off top.” Mm, mm- Shea Kidd Brown (41:58): (laughs) Chase Clark (41:58): … those have never been published for good reason- Shea Kidd Brown (42:00): (laughs) Yeah. Stream of consciousness. Chase Clark (42:01): Yeah. It was not a great show- Shea Kidd Brown (42:03): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:03): … 40 minutes long- Shea Kidd Brown (42:04): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:04): … with nothing profound being said. Shea Kidd Brown (42:05): Well, I’ll bet- Chase Clark (42:05): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (42:05): I would venture to guess, you are always profound. Chase Clark (42:05): Oh, thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (42:05): So, there’s probably always something there. Chase Clark (42:11): Well, thank you. I appreciate the confidence- Shea Kidd Brown (42:13): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:13): … those won’t be published- Shea Kidd Brown (42:13): (laughing) Chase Clark (42:14): … but, you know. Yeah. And then I would say my last lesson, just learn, do things wrong- Shea Kidd Brown (42:19): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:19): … fail, fail, fail, and try again. Shea Kidd Brown (42:21): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:22): Yeah. We were just talking earlier about making sure you press record- Shea Kidd Brown (42:25): Yeah. (laughs) Chase Clark (42:26): … and I can’t tell you how many times I just haven’t pressed record- Shea Kidd Brown (42:29): I know. It’s- Chase Clark (42:29): … but now I know, you gotta check. Shea Kidd Brown (42:31): It’s, it is such a, for those listening- Chase Clark (42:33): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (42:33): … it is like this nerve-wracking thing- Chase Clark (42:34): (laughing) Shea Kidd Brown (42:34): … every time you finish you’re like, “Okay, did I get it?” Chase Clark (42:37): Yep. And then, you know, or your mic might not work and then- Shea Kidd Brown (42:39): Yeah, that’s right. Chase Clark (42:40): … you’re with a guest and you’re like, “Okay, I am so sorry-” Shea Kidd Brown (42:42): Yes. Chase Clark (42:43): … “but we have to do this whole thing again.” Shea Kidd Brown (42:44): Yes. I’m watching sound waves as we speak. Chase Clark (42:47): Yep. Exactly. No, I understand completely what you were doing. So- Shea Kidd Brown (42:48): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:48): … just fail, you learn. So next time I’m like, “Okay, we can’t move the mic around.” Shea Kidd Brown (42:52): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:53): And in the same way you advised me at the beginning, you know, you might not wanna put your jewelry on- Shea Kidd Brown (42:56): Don’t touch the table. Chase Clark (42:57): … don’t move it around, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (42:58): Yeah. Chase Clark (42:58): So, those lessons are important. Shea Kidd Brown (43:00): I’m gonna put you on the spot- Chase Clark (43:01): Okay. Shea Kidd Brown (43:02): … and ask you, what advice do you have for me- Chase Clark (43:03): Hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (43:04): … as I continue this podcasting journey? (laughs) Chase Clark (43:07): Ooh, that’s a good question. I would say, just to keep going. I’m in this very short experience in being BSA president- Shea Kidd Brown (43:17): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (43:17): … I have seen how taxing life can come, sometimes be. And so sometimes it’s hard to put all of your, you know, effort and emphasis into passion projects- Shea Kidd Brown (43:25): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (43:25): … ’cause you’re like, “I have so much to do.” Shea Kidd Brown (43:26): To do. Chase Clark (43:28): But realizing and even reflecting back on that experience with that other student the other day, like these conversations, they definitely do have value. And I see how even amongst student bodies, the way that you flex your communications degree- Shea Kidd Brown (43:42): (laughs) Chase Clark (43:43): … and make these intentional spaces for people to come, and have these conversations, and get to sit down with someone who, you know, at other universities you might not get a chance- Shea Kidd Brown (43:52): Hmm. Chase Clark (43:52): … to even see sometimes by nature of their size. And so I think that these are really valuable. I remember going through your list of episodes and I was like, “Oh my gosh, Austin had a episode, I missed it.” Shea Kidd Brown (44:03): Yes. (laughs) Chase Clark (44:03): And so being able to see people that, you know, you’re connected to- Shea Kidd Brown (44:07): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (44:07): … on campus or you know, otherwise it’s just really, really helpful. Shea Kidd Brown (44:11): Well good. Chase Clark (44:12): And so I would say keep going. Shea Kidd Brown (44:12): Keep going. Chase Clark (44:12): Well, I would do that. I’ll remember that. Shea Kidd Brown (44:13): Thank you. Chase Clark (44:15): Especially when you have guests- Shea Kidd Brown (44:17): Yeah. Chase Clark (44:17): … it’s an a intimidating thing, you want people to have a great experience- Shea Kidd Brown (44:19): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (44:21): … you wanna ask the right things. You wanna have some order and structure- Shea Kidd Brown (44:24): Yeah. Chase Clark (44:24): … but you don’t wanna, you know not just go off of what you said instead of like- Shea Kidd Brown (44:28): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (44:28): … and question two, and question three. Shea Kidd Brown (44:29): (laughs) Yeah. So, I will keep going. Chase Clark (44:31): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (44:31): I appreciate that. As we kind of come to a close, you know, you’ve talked about a lot of different pieces of your life, and I really appreciate how generous you’ve been- Chase Clark (44:40): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (44:40): … with sharing your lived experiences, what the podcast is all about. I am curious, how do you stay so grounded? You know, each time I talk with you, you’ve got a lot going on, you have a lot of interests, you’re still that curious second grader, (laughs) you know, just grown up. So, how do you find your sense of peace, grounding, connectedness- Chase Clark (45:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (45:00): … however you wanna think about that? Chase Clark (45:02): I think that I’m very gracious to come from generally very grounded, yet busy people. Shea Kidd Brown (45:08): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (45:08): Both my parents have always been very, very busy, and my extended family as well. So, I got a lot of really early lessons on, okay, this is how you can balance your time well. In growing up and being so busy, I had to learn how to make space and time for myself. Some of those lessons came through a very hard way. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (45:28): Yeah. Chase Clark (45:28): So, you know, in COVID I was like, “Maybe I need a therapist, so maybe I should get a therapist.” Shea Kidd Brown (45:32): Yeah. Chase Clark (45:33): And so that’s been great in having someone to talk to and guide you through, like how to healthily navigate all of these things. Shea Kidd Brown (45:40): It’s so important. Chase Clark (45:41): Very much so. And then I would say another thing that has been very crucial for me is just managing time well- Shea Kidd Brown (45:49): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (45:49): … making sure that I have a planner, doing things that I know are helpful for me, making time for fun, whatever that means for me. Shea Kidd Brown (45:56): Mm-hmm. Laughing. Chase Clark (45:57): Um, laughing a lot. Um, those are like very easy moments of reprieve. And then lastly, prayer and religion- Shea Kidd Brown (46:04): Hmm. Chase Clark (46:04): … has just been really helpful for me as well. Like, I won’t say I’m the most disciplined in my faith- Shea Kidd Brown (46:09): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (46:10): … but I do know that whenever there’s a day where I’m just like, “Ooh, this might not, (laughs) this is gonna be a lot.” Like, it’s very easy for me to just say, “Okay, God, what do we have to do today?” Shea Kidd Brown (46:18): Yeah. Chase Clark (46:19): “We’re gonna get through it today, we’re gonna take it step by step. And just being thankful for, you know, what the day brings.” Again, hindsight is always 20-20- Shea Kidd Brown (46:25): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (46:26): … like we’ve been saying. And so I think that in many ways the proof has been in the pudding that everything’s gonna be fine. Shea Kidd Brown (46:32): Yes. Yeah. Chase Clark (46:32): So, that’s been a, a big lesson that I carry with me wherever I go. Shea Kidd Brown (46:37): That’s great. Well, it’s important lessons for us all- Chase Clark (46:38): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (46:38): … to remember. As your time at Wake starts to grow short- Chase Clark (46:44): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (46:44): … because that’s what happens- Chase Clark (46:44): Yeah. Eventually. Shea Kidd Brown (46:45): … what are things you’re looking forward to? Chase Clark (46:46): Well, I just recently decided that I want to go to law school after this. Shea Kidd Brown (46:50): Exciting. Chase Clark (46:51): So, I’m looking forward to that process. Um, a lot of people have been really, really again, helpful- Shea Kidd Brown (46:56): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (46:56): … in navigating that process and what it’s gonna look like- Shea Kidd Brown (46:59): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:00): … over the next few months. Shea Kidd Brown (47:01): (laughing) Chase Clark (47:01): So, I’m honestly excited for that- Shea Kidd Brown (47:03): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:03): … and what life looks like after Wake too, but while here on campus, I’m just continuing to build community with specifically the underclassmen have been really fun this year. Shea Kidd Brown (47:13): Mm-hmm. Chase Clark (47:13): And then people in my class who, I think we came in like right off of COVID- Shea Kidd Brown (47:17): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:17): … so a lot of us are just like, “Do you go here? I’ve never seen you.” Shea Kidd Brown (47:20): (laughs) Yeah. I’ve never seen you before. Chase Clark (47:21): And so it’s been really fun to like meet people in my class that I’ve just like- Shea Kidd Brown (47:25): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:25): … “I follow you on Instagram and LinkedIn- Shea Kidd Brown (47:26): Right. Chase Clark (47:27): … but I’ve never seen you in person, so that’s been fun.” Shea Kidd Brown (47:29): And because so many study abroad- Chase Clark (47:30): Yeah. Yeah. So- Shea Kidd Brown (47:30): … sophomore and junior year, Sometimes you can just say, “You look vaguely familiar.” (laughs) Chase Clark (47:34): Exactly. It’s been fun to run into people- Shea Kidd Brown (47:36): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:36): … that I’m like, “Wow, I know you. Do you wanna get coffee?- Shea Kidd Brown (47:39): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:40): … “like, let’s go talk.” And so I’m looking forward to that. And graduation, even though it’s a year away. Shea Kidd Brown (47:46): Yeah. Chase Clark (47:47): I just think it’ll be fun. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (47:49): Yeah. It will be. And it’s so much to look forward to, so- Chase Clark (47:50): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (47:52): …I’m grateful for this time together. Chase Clark (47:53): Thank you. I am, too. Shea Kidd Brown (47:54): I’m so fortunate to have a job where I just get to build connections, too- Chase Clark (47:58): And that’s awesome. Shea Kidd Brown (47:58): … just like you are doing as a student. So- Chase Clark (48:00): Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (48:00): … I appreciate you and our time together. Chase Clark (48:02): Of course, I appreciate you, too. Thank you for the invite. I’ve loved, this is like my first time in front of a mic in a long time- Shea Kidd Brown (48:09): Okay. Chase Clark (48:10): … so, I really do appreciate it. Shea Kidd Brown (48:12): Good. Well, thank you. Chase Clark (48:12): Yeah. Thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (48:14): And thank you so much for listening. I always appreciate those who follow along with the podcast. And as I’m processing my conversation with Chase, I’m sure people might debate me on this, but I truly think I have the best job on campus. Chase and so many others are doing good things with so much heart. In a world that’s noisy, it is always great to sit down, lock in, and learn something new. From Chase’s Chance to multiple podcasts, to BSA, to lessons on leadership, my brain is still processing and I’m sure yours is, too. Like Chase, we all have something to contribute to the world, I “Kidd” you not. So, let’s keep leaning into the hard work and heart work. Thanks again for listening. MaryAnna Bailey (49:03): For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey and this was Kidd You Not.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not! Today, I look forward to talking with someone I work closely with every day. John Currie is vice president and director of athletics at Wake Forest University. A graduate of Wake Forest and a North Carolina native, Currie joined the university as director of athletics during the spring of 2019. John has more than 30 years of experience in the ACC, Big 12, and SEC, and he served as Athletics Director at Kansas State and Tennessee. This year marks his 15th year as a Power Four Athletics Director. He has experienced a tremendous amount of success and was recently named on the Business North Carolina magazine’s Annual Power List.

(00:53):

Currie’s leadership style is one that inspires excellence and warmth. Each person who enters our events, whether members of the home team or our guests, are welcomed with a spirited, “Welcome to Wake Forest!” I look forward to our conversation today. 

Shea Kidd Brown (01:10):

Hello.

John Currie (01:10):

Hello.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

Welcome.

John Currie (01:12):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:12):

Thank you for-

John Currie (01:12):

It’s my honor.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:13):

… agreeing to do this. You have the busiest job, I feel like, so it’s a commitment to say yes, so thank you.

John Currie (01:18):

Well, this is the fun part of the job.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:19):

Yes.

John Currie (01:19):

Being with my colleagues and our students.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:21):

Yes, absolutely. And you and I get to work together a lot, but we don’t really get to talk about John Currie, and his life, and who he is as a person.

John Currie (01:30):

Well, this is a completely unscripted show.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:32):

It is (laughs).

John Currie (01:33):

So, I have no idea what you’re about to ask me.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:34):

(laughs) I know.

John Currie (01:34):

So, like, be gentle.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:35):

I will be gentle. Our stories are gentle. They’re uniquely-

John Currie (01:38):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (01:38):

… ours, so that’s really what I wanna talk about, so I hope you’re up for it.

John Currie (01:41):

Let’s go.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:42):

Alright. So, I often like to start with the personal and not get too, too deep, but it’s important. You have a really public persona. A lot of people know your job. A lot of people may even tell you how to do your job from (laughs) time to time, but knowing John Currie as a person, the humanity of you, is really what the goal is today, so I wanna start with something really simple that I ask every guest, is where’s home for you?

John Currie (02:08):

Well, home’s really Winston-Salem now.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:09):

Okay.

John Currie (02:10):

But I grew up in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I was-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:12):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (02:13):

… born in Philadelphia. My father was doing training there, and then he was in the Air Force for a few years, and then we moved to Chapel Hill when I was, uh, three years old. I grew up there, since it was a college town.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:22):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (02:22):

Grew up around college sports. Saw Wake Forest play in 1979. I was a Carolina fan with my dad [inaudible 00:02:28]-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:28):

I’ve heard that.

John Currie (02:29):

And it was a Tangerine Bowl year, and Wake Forest beat North Carolina 24 to 19, and I’ll never forget how mad my father-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

(laughs).

John Currie (02:35):

… was, walked out of Kenan Stadium that night.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:36):

Wow.

John Currie (02:37):

Uh, so I graduated from Chapel Hill Senior High School, back then, when there was only one.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:41):

Okay.

John Currie (02:41):

Now there’s three, in 1989. And, fortunately, sometime in mid to late May, I was accepted off the waiting list to Wake Forest-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:49):

Okay.

John Currie (02:50):

… and came here in 1989.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:51):

Wow. Well, so I wanna unpack that a little bit, so-

John Currie (02:53):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (02:54):

… grew up in Chapel Hill, avid, I think-

John Currie (02:57):

I would say-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

Uh-

John Currie (02:57):

… obnoxious Carolina fan.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Oh, obnoxious Carolina fans?

John Currie (02:58):

Obnoxious-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

Okay, your-

John Currie (03:00):

… very obnoxious.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

… words-

John Currie (03:00):

Avid and obnoxious.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:03):

… uh, not mine (laughs). What were you like as a young person? Not to say you’re not young now, as you were-

John Currie (03:08):

Probably need to ask-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

… growing up (laughs).

John Currie (03:09):

… my mother or my friends.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

Okay.

John Currie (03:11):

I was active. My parents were separated and then divorced when I was about 10-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Okay.

John Currie (03:15):

… and so that certainly was an impactful thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Sure.

John Currie (03:17):

But also, you know, I think that’s a resilience and adversity type deal, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:21):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:21):

… had great parents. My father’s deceased for nine years, and my mother, uh, now lives here in Winston-Salem, which is-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:26):

Right.

John Currie (03:26):

… a really great blessing for us. Uh, yeah, I have a s- sister, Lauren. Uh, later, my dad was remarried, and I have three younger siblings as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:32):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:32):

So I’m one of five, I’m the oldest of five-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Wow.

John Currie (03:34):

… so to speak.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:34):

Big family.

John Currie (03:35):

Growing up in Chapel Hill, it was a really neat place, because it was really diverse-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:39):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:39):

… growing up in a school system, public school system.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:41):

Sure.

John Currie (03:42):

It was still kind of a village back then, so you knew everybody, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:45):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:45):

… that integration was not that far behind the school system, right? So, you had-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:48):

Right.

John Currie (03:48):

… schoolteachers who had taught in the segregated schools, who-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:51):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (03:51):

… had come together, and so, I guess I realized that back then, but now, I look back on it-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

Yeah-

John Currie (03:55):

… and that’s pretty-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

Significant.

John Currie (03:56):

… impactful, pretty-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:56):

Yeah.

John Currie (03:56):

… significant. And then, Chapel Hill Senior High School was a place where you had these, like, kids of, like, imminent researchers at the triangle universities-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:03):

Sure.

John Currie (04:04):

… and RTP, and then you had kids whose parents were the custodians, and so everybody was there together, which-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:09):

… was really wonderful.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Yeah, so do you recall what that was like in terms of growing up in a diverse environment and things that you learned from that experience?

John Currie (04:16):

My childhood was really pretty good, and I mean, I loved sports, and family was active. Both my parents had went to the- gone to the University of North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:24):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:24):

… and so, you know, so we’d go to games, and so that was like an early part of kinda like what you do.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:30):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:30):

You, you go to the games at-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:30):

You support the-

John Currie (04:31):

… at the university, support-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

… local team.

John Currie (04:34):

… the team, and all that kinda stuff, and so I have memories of my father coming home from work, late usually. That apple-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:37):

(laughs).

John Currie (04:38):

… does not fall far from the tree, coming home from work late, and grabbing me, and jumping in the car, and then-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:42):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:42):

… racing over, and parking somewhere on a-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:44):

Right.

John Currie (04:45):

… street, side street, and then running to get into Carmichael Auditorium, and usually, it was after tip-off, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Okay.

John Currie (04:51):

… those are-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:51):

(laughs).

John Currie (04:51):

… early memories and special memories, and so even now, when I see parents and their kids at games, or father-sons, or grandfather and grandson-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:58):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (04:58):

… I know how special those-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:59):

Yeah.

John Currie (04:59):

… moments are, so seeing those moments and knowing that we help facilitate those moments-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:03):

Right.

John Currie (05:03):

… is a special part of my job.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:05):

Yeah. It’s a core memory, it-

John Currie (05:06):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

… sounds like, growing up like that, and I love that we get to, in the professions that we’ve chosen, incorporate our families. They are very much a part of the community and, and being a part of our jobs, but also being a part of the community. That’s really special. You talked some about your dad coming home late. Just an extension of that question, “Where’s home for you?”, so you had a couple of places that you spent a lot of time, and Winston-Salem is now home. What does home mean to you? What does that whole concept mean to you? I spend a lot of time thinking about that. I think you and I both have our share of trying to create that sense of home, in very different but connected worlds, so curious what that means to you.

John Currie (05:45):

As we do this podcast, you know, you’re the intellectual superior of me, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (05:49):

Stop (laughs).

John Currie (05:50):

So, so you’re, you’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:50):

That’s not true.

John Currie (05:51):

… once again, like, going into some, like, really deep-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:54):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (05:54):

… philosophical thing, and you know, I’m just like, “Where’s the food?”

Shea Kidd Brown (05:55):

(laughs).

John Currie (05:56):

Um (laughs) I’m very basic, and you’re at a very high level, um, Dr. Shea.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:59):

(laughs).

John Currie (06:00):

I like being around people, and one of the things I learned, my career, had a brief period of time between AD positions where I was doing consulting, and I-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:09):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:09):

… I enjoyed that. One of the things I really learned is I love being part of a team.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:12):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:13):

I mean, I was reminded.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:14):

I mean, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (06:14):

… revealed to me. I mean, being part of a team, I don’t have to lead the team, but being part of the team, and team goals, and team camaraderie, and working together to solve a problem-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:24):

Yeah.

John Currie (06:25):

… I love that.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:25):

Feels like home to you?

John Currie (06:27):

And, and that’s, and that’s a home kinda thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:28):

Yeah.

John Currie (06:28):

Our family, my wife, uh, Mary Lawrence, we’ve been married for 26 years-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:33):

Congratulations.

John Currie (06:34):

… now. And, she has been an incredible friend, soulmate, companion, challenger, wife, great mother to our three children, has been involved in so many ways, but… And this is not just our family. Everybody’s going in a lot of different directions. Everybody has-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

Yeah, but-

John Currie (06:46):

… stress-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

… especially-

John Currie (06:46):

… everybody has different activities, and all that kinda stuff, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:46):

Yeah, I don’t think-

John Currie (06:46):

… but like now-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:49):

… it’s the same (laughs) dynamic-

John Currie (06:50):

… nowadays, like, just being with my family-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Yeah.

John Currie (06:53):

… I really treasure that.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:54):

Yeah, absolutely.

John Currie (06:55):

And, uh, currently, like, two of the greatest joys of my life, our daughter, Mary-Dell, is 15, and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:59):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:00):

… when I get to take Mary-Dell to school-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:01):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:01):

… that’s really-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:02):

That’s nice.

John Currie (07:03):

… awesome. I took-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Yeah.

John Currie (07:03):

… her to school this morning.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:04):

Me too.

John Currie (07:04):

And, uh-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:05):

I took my 15-year-old to school.

John Currie (07:06):

And she’s playing field hockey now. She went to [inaudible 00:07:08]-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:07):

Yeah.

John Currie (07:08):

… Field Hockey Camp last year and like-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:09):

Nice.

John Currie (07:11):

… literally started playing, and I love watching her play field hockey-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:12):

That’s great.

John Currie (07:13):

… so those family things, that’s what home means to me.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Yeah.

John Currie (07:15):

But I’m also, Shea, I’m really lucky, because I have been really… the Lord has blessed me with some incredible friend groups.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:22):

I have some really neat friends groups-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:24):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:24):

… that go way back, my friends from Wake. I still have some friends from Chapel Hill. Ironically, one of them, childhood street friends, she lives on the same street as me-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:32):

Now?

John Currie (07:33):

… here in Winston-Salem, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (07:33):

Wow.

John Currie (07:34):

And that was by accident-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:35):

Mm-hmm.

John Currie (07:35):

… so that’s really cool. And I’ve got a, a group of friends that I kinda grew up with in the summertime, that I worked with during the summers in college, up in the mountains in North Carolina- Shea Kidd Brown (07:42): Mm-hmm. John Currie (07:43): … so, I have an abundance of friendships, and I’m blessed for that. Shea Kidd Brown (07:46): I would say, as an adult, it’s hard to have friends sometimes, and to- Shea Kidd Brown (07:51): … sustain those relationships, because of the busyness, and for you, you know, you are generous and saying everyone’s busy, but your schedule, your flying here, there, and everywhere. It’s just the nature of the job, whether you’re supporting one of our many sports, or it’s hiring, it’s personnel, it’s always something. You don’t have a season. And so I think it is special to feel tethered to a group of people who don’t care who you are, they don’t care that you’re AD at Wake Forest. They care very much about the world that you’re in that’s very much changing, but to have that outside of our day-to-day is really special. And I agree. I have my people (laughs) you know? Like- John Currie (08:27): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (08:28): And I can check in, and they can check in on me, and it just keeps me grounded. And I love that we both were able to drive our kids, who are the same age, same grade, to school. John Currie (08:37): That’s one of the benefits of living in Winston-Salem- Shea Kidd Brown (08:38): It is. John Currie (08:38): … right? It’s a- Shea Kidd Brown (08:38): It is. John Currie (08:41): … 10-minute town. It’s the coolest neighborhood in North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (08:42): Yeah. John Currie (08:42): I’ve been all over the state this week,- Shea Kidd Brown (08:44): Mm-hmm. John Currie (08:45): … and this is a really great place to live. Shea Kidd Brown (08:46): Yeah, so I love learning about your childhood a little bit. I do wanna find out when did sport, from a standpoint of being a fan, ’cause you talk a lot about the importance of fans, translate into what you decided to do? So, tell me a little bit about your sports journey, when you decided to be in this from a professional standpoint. I’d love to hear about that. John Currie (09:07): When I was a little kid, my grandfather landed on Utah Beach, 06:30 in the morning- Shea Kidd Brown (09:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:12): … on D-Day. Shea Kidd Brown (09:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:14): And he was on the beach all day, ’cause he was regimental supply officer, so he never left the beach. And so, growing up, I really looked up to my grandfather. You know, he had his medals, and- Shea Kidd Brown (09:22): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:22): … he didn’t talk a whole lot about it, but- Shea Kidd Brown (09:23): Right. John Currie (09:24): … as a result of knowing that he had been part of D-Day and been part of, uh, that war, and interestingly, he was a Clemson graduate, and he was a- Shea Kidd Brown (09:30): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:31): … passionate Clemson fan, uh, and he was a charter member of [inaudible 00:09:33]. And so, I read, like, every book about World War II- Shea Kidd Brown (09:38): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:39): … and Vietnam, and Korea in the Estes Hills Elementary School Library- Shea Kidd Brown (09:43): Wow (laughs). John Currie (09:43): … in Chapel Hill. One of those books, i- ironically, was about medal of honor winners, and it featured a profile of Sergeant Lawrence Joel, and so- Shea Kidd Brown (09:51): Wow. John Currie (09:51): … when I came to Wake Forest in 1989 and learned that the Coliseum had just- Shea Kidd Brown (09:55): (laughs). John Currie (09:56): … been named after Lawrence Joel- Shea Kidd Brown (09:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (09:57): … who was the first living black medal of honor winner- Shea Kidd Brown (10:00): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:03): Winston-Salem’s first Medal of Honor winner from his heroic actions as a Medic in Vietnam, I think it was 1965, the engagement that he was cited for. I actually knew who Lawrence Joel was. Shea Kidd Brown (10:10): Wow. John Currie (10:10): Right? Even before- Shea Kidd Brown (10:10): Because you’d read about it. John Currie (10:10): Be- because I read about it when I was in elementary school. So, history was something I was really into. Shea Kidd Brown (10:16): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:16): And then I was into sports, right? Shea Kidd Brown (10:17): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:18): And, you know, I played soccer from a… Anson Dorrance just retired as the women’s soccer coach at Wake Forest. (Correction: Anson Dorrance was the UNC Chapel Hill women’s soccer coach.) Shea Kidd Brown (10:23): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:23): And in the ’70s he, he started a program at Chapel Hill called Rainbow Soccer. Shea Kidd Brown (10:26): Hmm. John Currie (10:26): And everybody at Chapel Hill played Rainbow Soccer. And baseball, and of course I loved basketball and football and all that kind of stuff. Shea Kidd Brown (10:30): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:32): I was not an elite athlete. My son found one of my old trophies from like ninth grade about ten years ago, and it said, “Best Hustle Award.” Shea Kidd Brown (10:40): (laughs) John Currie (10:40): And Jack said, “You know, Dad, that means you weren’t any good.” Shea Kidd Brown (10:43): (laughs) John Currie (10:43): Right? I read a lot. Shea Kidd Brown (10:45): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:45): Right? And so I followed box scores, and you know, I kinda learned to read… The Chapel Hill Newspaper was an afternoon paper, right? Shea Kidd Brown (10:51): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:51): So, I’d come home and read the Chapel Hill Newspaper and read the box scores. And Jay Bilas calls it like, kinda the golden era of college sports, right? Shea Kidd Brown (10:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (10:57): ‘Cause you had all these players that stayed in school for four years- Shea Kidd Brown (10:59): Right. John Currie (11:00): You know, growing up in the Atlantic Coast Conference on Tobacco Road- Shea Kidd Brown (11:02): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:03): … you knew there were only seven teams. Then there was eight when Georgia Tech came in in 1980, then there was eight. You sailed with the Pilot on Wednesday nights, on Raycom Jefferson-Pilot, you watched the game of the week, or double-header or whatever with, you know, Bones McKinney was one of the announcers, etc. You knew every player, every starter of all eight- Shea Kidd Brown (11:21): Wow. John Currie (11:21): … seven or eight ACC teams. You knew every quarterback in the league. It was just ubiquitous- Shea Kidd Brown (11:25): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:25): … you know, in the culture of North Carolina. There were no professional sports in North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (11:28): Right. John Currie (11:29): Back then there were probably three or four million people in North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (11:31): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:31): And then going into junior high school and then high school at Chapel Hill Senior, I remember Jennifer Kincaid, my English teacher that I had two classes with in high school. Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): It’s funny how- John Currie (11:40): Um- Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): … we recall- John Currie (11:40): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (11:40): … those favorite teachers. John Currie (11:43): And Dave Faden in eighth grade- Shea Kidd Brown (11:45): (laughs) John Currie (11:45): … taught me how to be a principal. And Freddy Kieger is a famous, uh, history teach s- he does television now. Shea Kidd Brown (11:50): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:51): It’s, uh, I see Mr. Kieger at different games sometimes. So, as a result, I was doing these sports. I was really history kinda- Shea Kidd Brown (11:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (11:57): … organized. And I was the editor in chief of the Proconian, the pros and cons of Chapel Hill High School. Shea Kidd Brown (12:00): Oh. John Currie (12:00): And I was president of the senior class. And so I used to write the game programs for our soccer games- Shea Kidd Brown (12:07): Hm. John Currie (12:07): … at Chapel Senior High School. I was in the newspaper, so I could make ’em,- Shea Kidd Brown (12:09): Hm. John Currie (12:10): … lay ’em out, and write about the coach of the visiting team. Shea Kidd Brown (12:11): Right. John Currie (12:12): And came to Wake Forest, I really had no idea what I was gonna do. Shea Kidd Brown (12:15): Mm-hmm. John Currie (12:15): I just took the classes that I liked. Shea Kidd Brown (12:17): Right. John Currie (12:17): Right? That I was interested in. I- Shea Kidd Brown (12:18): Well- John Currie (12:18): I thought that’s what you were supposed to do- Shea Kidd Brown (12:19): Yeah. John Currie (12:20): … at a liberal arts university. Shea Kidd Brown (12:21): And I think you should. John Currie (12:22): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (12:22): You know? That’s like… Just to interrupt for a second. Like, I think our students now feel like they have to know day one, and you’re not even a fully formed human- John Currie (12:29): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (12:29): … yet, so how can you- John Currie (12:30): Absolute- Shea Kidd Brown (12:30): … make this big decision? So, I think that was what you shoulda done. John Currie (12:34): Absolutely. So, I probably thought I was gonna be a high school history teacher and a- Shea Kidd Brown (12:36): Yeah. John Currie (12:37): … baseball or soccer coach, ’cause those are the people I looked up to. Shea Kidd Brown (12:39): Mm-hmm. John Currie (12:40): And then I did take some teaching practicum classes. I did one at Glenn High School. But later I decided not to student teach, ’cause you had to make that decision early- Shea Kidd Brown (12:47): Yeah. John Currie (12:47): … in my junior year and I was thinking like, “Second semester senior year up at 5:00 a.m.-” Shea Kidd Brown (12:51): Mm-hmm. John Currie (12:52): “… that’s not gonna work for me.” Shea Kidd Brown (12:52): Right. John Currie (12:53): Right? Shea Kidd Brown (12:53): And it’s also late to find out if that’s not what you wanna do. John Currie (12:56): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (12:56): That’s a late stage- John Currie (12:57): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (12:57): … experiential opportunity, and so it’s late if you figure out that’s not exactly what you wanna do. John Currie (13:02): In August of 1992, I came back to school for my senior year, I got a letter from my dad. I actually just found the box that it was stored in about two weeks ago, and I reread it. It’s about six pages long. Shea Kidd Brown (13:12): Wow. John Currie (13:13): He was a physician, so it’s kinda hard to read it. Shea Kidd Brown (13:14): (laughs) Right? John Currie (13:15): It was six pages long, and I treasured it because it basically said, “You gotta figure out what you’re gonna do next year.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:22): Mm. John Currie (13:22): It didn’t say- what you had to do for the rest of your life. Shea Kidd Brown (13:24): Mm-hmm. John Currie (13:24): It did say that, “You’ve got to put some thought into being intentional about doing something.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:28): Something. John Currie (13:29): And I remember one of the things he wrote in the letter was, “If you decide that your goal is to work in 10 ski resorts in the next three years, that’s okay.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:37): Mm-hmm. John Currie (13:37): “But you have to have a goal.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:39): A goal. Mm-hmm. John Currie (13:39): “And have to have something to work for.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:40): Yeah. John Currie (13:41): I treasure that, and I’m gonna [inaudible 00:13:42] Shea Kidd Brown (13:43): Yeah. John Currie (13:43): … and siblings and all kinds a stuff. Shea Kidd Brown (13:44): That’s great. John Currie (13:44): Had a fraternity brother who was, uh, he’s very successful, but he was kind of a goof off. Shea Kidd Brown (13:48): (laughs) John Currie (13:49): Kind of a shortcut taker. Fell in love in the spring semester. He was on an exchange program, he met a s- student who is still his wife and he fell in love, and she was really with it and she already had a job, and one day- Shea Kidd Brown (13:58): She was with it, you say. (laughs) John Currie (13:59): She was really with it. I mean, really smart. Really- Shea Kidd Brown (14:01): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:01): Kinda like my wife, really organized. Shea Kidd Brown (14:02): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:02): And like, we were just k- a bunch a guys. And one day this guy walks into the house we were living in, and we were laying around watching Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune or Price is Right or something. Shea Kidd Brown (14:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:12): And this guy, George is his name, he had a suit on, and we were like, “George, do you have to go to court?” Shea Kidd Brown (14:17): (laughs) John Currie (14:17): You know, “What’s going on here?” Right? “You in trouble?” Shea Kidd Brown (14:18): (laughs) Right. John Currie (14:18): And George was like, “Guys, we’re seniors, we have to get jobs.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:23): Ah. (laughs) Okay. John Currie (14:24): True story. And he walked on through the thing, and we kinda looked at him. You could tell that we were like, “If George is getting a job-” Shea Kidd Brown (14:29): Right. We- John Currie (14:29): “… we better get jobs, too.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:30): So, was he headed to the career fair or something? John Currie (14:32): He had just gone to the career services- Shea Kidd Brown (14:33): Oh, okay. John Currie (14:34): … office to meet with somebody or whatever. And so we started as a group kinda this pattern where we would go to the career services office. Shea Kidd Brown (14:38): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:39): And I can’t remember her last name, but her first name was Penny, and back then they had a wall where they had clipboards and you would sign up for interviews or you would drop your resume into- Shea Kidd Brown (14:47): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:47): … a manila folder- Shea Kidd Brown (14:48): My gosh. John Currie (14:48): … stapled to one of the clipboards. And I got to know Penny, and I became the person that was her backup. So, if somebody didn’t show up for a interview or canceled for an interview- Shea Kidd Brown (14:56): Uh-huh. John Currie (14:56): She didn’t wanna have an empty spot- Shea Kidd Brown (14:57): Mm-hmm. John Currie (14:58): … for the interviewer, so she would call me. And if the message came through on the house phone, ’cause we didn’t have cell- Shea Kidd Brown (15:02): So different. John Currie (15:02): … I would like put on a suit and run over and interview. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (15:04): (laughs) John Currie (15:06): To fill her slot. Shea Kidd Brown (15:06): Y- you got a lotta practice. John Currie (15:08): So, I got a lotta practice. Shea Kidd Brown (15:09): Yeah. John Currie (15:09): And I always say, I’m sure that I was the person that when the recruiters were back at the hotel that night talking- Shea Kidd Brown (15:15): Mm-hmm. John Currie (15:15): … about the biggest joke interviews they had that day, I was always the one they were talking about. Shea Kidd Brown (15:19): No. John Currie (15:19): And later on in that year, met Ron Wellman, he was a brand new athletic director, he was doing what brand new athletic directors do, which is go meet different student groups. And I met with Ron and he said, “Well, come on by sometime.” And it turned out he had an internship. They had an internship in development, and ended up working at an internship. So, the interesting thing about that, Shea, is I took that job August 16th, 1993. Shea Kidd Brown (15:36): Mm-hmm. John Currie (15:37): [Inaudible 00:15:37] intern. I turned down a job with PepsiCo, turned down a job with insurance something or whatever. And I took this job, didn’t pay very much, and now people say, “Mr. Currie, I’m really interested in being an athletic director.” Shea Kidd Brown (15:48): Mm. Hm. John Currie (15:48): “When did you decide you wanted to be an athletic director?” And I’m always amazed, August 16th, 1993- Shea Kidd Brown (15:52): Mm-hmm. John Currie (15:53): … when I walked into the Wake Forest athletics program, the thought of me being like- Shea Kidd Brown (15:57): Hm. John Currie (15:57): … Ron Wellman wasn’t even- Shea Kidd Brown (15:59): Didn’t occur. John Currie (15:59): … remotely in my comprehension. Shea Kidd Brown (16:01): Yeah, yeah. John Currie (16:02): That was so far out of my comprehension. Shea Kidd Brown (16:04): Hm. John Currie (16:04): And it wasn’t until about 10 years in that I was like, “You know what? I, I might wanna do that in the right situation.” Shea Kidd Brown (16:10): Wow. Was your thought process like your dad had advised, like, “I’m thinking about what the next year looks like.” Not your whole life? John Currie (16:17): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:17): Yeah. John Currie (16:17): So like, one of the things he said, “If you wanna go to graduate school-” Shea Kidd Brown (16:20): Mm-hmm. John Currie (16:20): “… I’ll support that.” Shea Kidd Brown (16:21): Mm-hmm. Your dad? John Currie (16:23): He said that. Shea Kidd Brown (16:23): Mm-hmm. John Currie (16:23): He said, “But you can’t go to graduate school, ’cause you don’t know what you wanna do.” Shea Kidd Brown (16:25): Mm-hmm. Right. John Currie (16:26): To, just to mark time. Shea Kidd Brown (16:27): Sure. John Currie (16:28): That’s not acceptable. Shea Kidd Brown (16:29): Mm-hmm. John Currie (16:29): Right? And I recognize, you know, I’m incredibly fortunate that, you know, I graduated from college without any debt. And I recognize I have lots of benefits and blessings that other people don’t get, a lot of whom have made a lot more out of themselves than I have. Shea Kidd Brown (16:41): Well, that’s… we can argue about… John Currie (16:43): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:43): … whether that’s true or not, but I think there’s so many lessons in that. I mean, to have someone see you and see your potential. For you to be open and say, “This corporate path might be a sure thing, too. I’m gonna say no to that. I’m gonna lean into w- the right now.” And then see where it takes you, I think is really interesting. So at Wake Forest, while you were a student, we kinda- John Currie (17:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:04): … fast forwarded to junior and senior year, but what memories do you have as you think about, you were a history major. Did you have a minor? John Currie (17:11): I minored in politics. Shea Kidd Brown (17:12): In politics. Okay. John Currie (17:13): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:14): So, you stayed on that history path- John Currie (17:15): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (17:15): … that you started really early in your upbringing. What was Wake Forest like- John Currie (17:19): So- Shea Kidd Brown (17:20): … back then, and what were you like? John Currie (17:21): So I mentioned there was, my class at Chapel Hill High School, Senior High School was 399 people. Shea Kidd Brown (17:25): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:26): And I think 60 of ’em went to UNC Chapel Hill. Shea Kidd Brown (17:28): Okay. John Currie (17:28): And so three went to Wake Forest. Uh- Shea Kidd Brown (17:30): And was your original plan there? John Currie (17:34): No. Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Okay. John Currie (17:34): One of the places I applied. Shea Kidd Brown (17:34): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:34): I mean, I got in some places, I didn’t get in other places. I got waitlisted at other places. I actually got into Rhodes College in Memphis. Shea Kidd Brown (17:39): Beautiful campus. John Currie (17:40): And, uh, I got in there off the waitlist. Shea Kidd Brown (17:42): Mm. John Currie (17:42): Late April, my father and I flew out to look at the campus. Shea Kidd Brown (17:44): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:44): I was gonna go there, and that was a, you know, Division 3 school. Maybe I could play soccer- Shea Kidd Brown (17:48): Hm. John Currie (17:48): … or baseball or something like that. And then I got into Wake about four weeks later and- Shea Kidd Brown (17:51): Okay. John Currie (17:51): … there were a lotta reasons that Wake appealed to me. I had some cousins that had gone here. The American Legion used to sponsor Boys State. Shea Kidd Brown (17:58): Mm-hmm. John Currie (17:58): An- and that was at Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (17:58): Yeah. John Currie (17:59): And so I had spent a week here between my sophomore and junior year or junior and senior year. So, uh, I mean, a lot of it appealed to me, right? Shea Kidd Brown (18:04): Yeah. John Currie (18:05): And I had some people in my church, uh, Joe Clontz, who, uh, just passed away this past year. Shea Kidd Brown (18:09): Hm. John Currie (18:09): And, uh, Limon Ferrell and some other people in my church in Chapel Hill, Olin T. Binkley Memorial Church, were influential in my life. Shea Kidd Brown (18:16): Mm-hmm. John Currie (18:17): And that was a big part of our family’s life, and so, so I knew a lot about Wake Forest, so I came to Wake Forest. When I came here, the other people from my class that came here were Lara Nelson, whose parents had been here, and then Ryan Allston. Can’t remember if Ryan came that year or he came the next year. H- he played football at Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (18:30): Okay. John Currie (18:31): And so those are the people that I knew. And I had been with those two people all through elementary school. Shea Kidd Brown (18:36): Mm-hmm. John Currie (18:36): From Estes, et cetera. A cousin named Tony Pennet, who, uh, now works at, uh, Rentals America, and who was also he, a distant cousin. So, that was all I knew. Shea Kidd Brown (18:43): Hm. John Currie (18:43): I was probably pretty insecure. I do consider myself, you would not agree with this, but pretty introverted. Shea Kidd Brown (18:52): (laughs) No, I would not agree with that- John Currie (18:53): Well- Shea Kidd Brown (18:53): … at all. John Currie (18:53): … a recovered introvert, but- Shea Kidd Brown (18:53): Yeah. John Currie (18:54): Remember, introverts make the best salespeople. Shea Kidd Brown (18:55): Yeah. John Currie (18:55): You know why? Shea Kidd Brown (18:56): Uh, why? John Currie (18:56): Because they listen. Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Yeah. (laughs) That’s true. John Currie (18:58): Okay. They- Shea Kidd Brown (18:58): That’s true. John Currie (18:59): They listen. Shea Kidd Brown (19:00): Yeah. John Currie (19:00): So, always remember that, introverts. Shea Kidd Brown (19:02): Yeah. John Currie (19:02): So, I was shy. I didn’t know anybody, but it was, I had a great suite and- Shea Kidd Brown (19:05): So, were you on the quad first year then? You’re s- John Currie (19:07): I was in Kitchin 304. Shea Kidd Brown (19:07): Okay. John Currie (19:09): I was in C. So, back then now, those back rooms had two people in ’em. Shea Kidd Brown (19:11): Oh. (laughs) John Currie (19:12): Now you’ve just got, you’re- Shea Kidd Brown (19:12): I know. We- John Currie (19:14): … They just got one now. Shea Kidd Brown (19:15): Hear that, students, if you’re listening? John Currie (19:16): Right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:16): Things have changed a little bit. John Currie (19:21): So, back in the corner in Kitchin 304C, it was l- overlooked the road there, above Student Health. Shea Kidd Brown (19:22): Mm-hmm. John Currie (19:23): I had a great- Shea Kidd Brown (19:23): Yeah. John Currie (19:23): … freshman suite, and then, uh, ended up in the same fraternity with some of those guys, and there was a club soccer team. There’s a guy named Pete Heinz, who’s a, uh, ’91 grad. Shea Kidd Brown (19:31): Yeah. John Currie (19:31): And he’s been really involved at Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (19:33): Mm-hmm. I’ve met Pete. John Currie (19:34): We, we reconnected five or six years ago s- Shea Kidd Brown (19:36): Yeah. John Currie (19:36): … when I came back. And I said, “You know, Pete, you, as a junior when I was a freshman, and that club soccer team became like…” I mean, that was one of my places. Shea Kidd Brown (19:44): Yeah. John Currie (19:45): It’s, uh, my people. And so like, you know, even as a student leader how you impact other students, and you don’t even know it. Shea Kidd Brown (19:50): Know it. Mm-hmm.

John Currie (19:51): Right? Pete’s become a really good friend and he’s- Shea Kidd Brown (19:53): Yeah. John Currie (19:53): … obviously been a, a great supporter for Wake Forest and Wake Forest Soccer. Shea Kidd Brown (19:56): Mm-hmm. John Currie (19:57): But the fraternity thing was really important to me and learned a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (20:00): Mm-hmm. John Currie (20:00): … from that experience. I, uh, took German. So, I took five semesters of German. John Currie (20:03): … a lot from that experience. Shea Kidd Brown (20:03): Mm-hmm. John Currie (20:03): I took German. So I took five semesters of German at Wake Forest. I passed four. Shea Kidd Brown (20:04): (laughs). John Currie (20:07): Went abroad for a month between junior and senior year. Shea Kidd Brown (20:09): Where’d you go? John Currie (20:09): Germany. It was a trip with Dr. West. His daughter Sarah was in my class. It was like 10 students who went for a week in four different cities. It was really great. Shea Kidd Brown (20:17): Yeah. John Currie (20:17): A great trip. And there were some professors that were, you know, really impactful and really engaged. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): Yeah. John Currie (20:22): Two of my best professors actually aren’t at Wake Forest any more. It was kind of a transitional period at that time because a lot of the professors who had come here from the old campus, kind of the legendary professors, a lot of them had retired. It was slowing down. (20:33): And so two of the professors I had were assistant professors who have now gone on and are at other places. One’s at Cal Berkeley and one’s at Washington University St. Louis. But they were impactful. (20:41): And then I’ll never forget. Carlton Mitchell is one of the all-time great names at Wake Forest. So, I’m putting him into your podcast because you know, he’s been passed away for many, many years. But he was our religion professor when I was a freshman. Voice and mannerisms and kind of his incredible depth of the subjects and stuff like that. Shea Kidd Brown (20:58): Right. John Currie (20:58): I’ll always remember that class. Shea Kidd Brown (20:59): Yeah. John Currie (21:00): And four or five years later when I was working at Wake, Dr. Mitchell had played basketball for Wake in the thirties. Shea Kidd Brown (21:04): Really? John Currie (21:05): And I was working for Wake Forest and I said something about, “Yeah, I took your class when I was a freshman.” And Dr. Mitchell said, “Yes, John, I believe you were [inaudible 00:21:12].” (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (21:14): (laughs). Are you serious? John Currie (21:14): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (21:16): That’s great. So for listeners, John and I, I said already, we’re close colleagues. We work together a lot and we talk about this place. And when I first started here, and I’d talk about Wake Forest and I’d say, or I’d ask, “What is special about this place?” And I was told, “You know, Wake Forest is a deeply relational place.” But, (21:34): and we laugh now, and chuckle about it, but it is. Able to name people, specific people, and many of those are faculty who were important to you. And so it just demonstrates just how special this place is. (21:47): We could probably go on and on about just this question I’m about to ask, but what are those two, three things that you think of that are still true that you experienced as a student now as you get to work here. John Currie (22:00): I distinctly remember we had a big basketball win when I was junior year. Beat Duke. They were ranked number one. My classmate, John Sadlowski, who has two children at Wake Forest actually sent me after we beat Duke this past year, he sent me the copy of the newspaper, Winston-Salem newspaper, because he was actually on top of the rim. Shea Kidd Brown (22:16): What!? John Currie (22:16): Front page of the paper. Shea Kidd Brown (22:19): Oh my gosh. John Currie (22:21): So, don’t do that. Shea Kidd Brown (22:21): No. John Currie (22:22): You’re not allowed to do that anymore. Shea Kidd Brown (22:22): Not here. John Currie (22:23): And John is an esteemed attorney now. (22:25): But I remember how that particular event just solidified. You know, later that night we threw basically a big party. And like the basketball team was there and people from all different groups and all over. Everybody was just together. Shea Kidd Brown (22:37): Yeah. John Currie (22:38): And even now I do exit interviews with student-athletes. Shea Kidd Brown (22:41): Mm-hmm. John Currie (22:41): And I had an exit interview with a football athlete several years ago and I said, “What’s the most memorable thing of your Wake Forest time?” And this student athlete, who was a pretty good football player, successful, great student, all that kind of stuff. He said, “You know, with the basketball team, we had a basketball win, and we were all on the quad after the game, on Hearn Plaza and everybody was together.” Shea Kidd Brown (23:00): Wow. John Currie (23:00): That to me defined Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (23:00): Yeah. That gives me chills. John Currie (23:04): And I-I really think that’s, despite everything that’s going on in college athletics this year, I still believe in the opportunity and the camaraderie and the teammates and all that kind of stuff. But what I really love about athletics or events or whatever, is it brings people together. Shea Kidd Brown (23:15): Yeah. John Currie (23:16): And having, when we used to have university-wide parties like out at the, what is now the rugby field or the soccer field. We used to have band parties down there, band-sponsored, stuff like that. Those moments of everybody being- Shea Kidd Brown (23:28): Together. John Currie (23:28): … for everybody to be together. I’m grateful, and I appreciate the partnership with Campus Life and how we’ve worked together- Shea Kidd Brown (23:35): Yeah. John Currie (23:35): … to continue to create those moments, you know? Shea Kidd Brown (23:37): Yeah. John Currie (23:38): Before you got here, during in the depth of COVID, part two. Our students had worked so hard, and our university leadership had worked so hard to provide a safe environment and honor the safety aspects. Shea Kidd Brown (23:49): Sure. John Currie (23:49): And be respectful and all that kind of stuff. And people were really suffering at that point. Shea Kidd Brown (23:53): Right. John Currie (23:53): Isolation, stuff like that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:54): Absolutely. John Currie (23:55): And I remember. We were thinking, “We’ve got to create some fun.” We worked with Tim Wilkinson and others to create some fun things around watch parties on the Mag, and the way that has led into the moments of seeing all these students together… has really been awesome. Shea Kidd Brown (24:09): Yeah. John Currie (24:09): And I will say that 2019, when we had the Winston-Salem State band and the Wake Forest band perform on our home first game, my first game here. And people came up and talked about how it was amazing. First time we’d ever done that, and we did it again. Those are really special. Shea Kidd Brown (24:23): Special. Yeah, that togetherness is special. And I was on a different campus during the pandemic but it was the… There’s things that you just can’t recreate on a screen that maybe we had never even had to grapple with until we were- John Currie (24:36): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (24:37): … in the middle of it. And I do love looking across and seeing a full student section and what it means to wear Old Gold and black. And when I’m in an airport or when I’m in a different city and I hear “Go Deacs.” A current parent told me he was in Europe and had “WF” on his belt and someone came up to him and said, “Go Deacs.” He was almost like forgetting, “I’m not in the US. I’m not in North Carolina.” John Currie (25:04): Right. Well, one of the things though, that you just touched on, in different places. I’ve been in different places, and when you said, “Even though I didn’t go to Wake Forest,” that bothered me. Okay? Shea Kidd Brown (25:09): Hmm. John Currie (25:09): Because you’re kind of like saying like you’re not equal. Right? When I was away from Wake Forest for almost 20 years at University of Tennessee, where you worked as well. Shea Kidd Brown (25:18): Right. John Currie (25:18): And also Kansas State University where I was for eight years, and then at Kansas. Shea Kidd Brown (25:21): Right. John Currie (25:22): Kansas State pretty much admits everybody that applies, you know, with a few exceptions. Wake Forest, highly selective. Shea Kidd Brown (25:28): Right. John Currie (25:28): But one of the things I learned there was just because a place is open, right, and has a kind of an open inclusivity, doesn’t mean it’s not high quality. Shea Kidd Brown (25:37): Yeah. That’s so true. John Currie (25:38): There can be really high quality people there. Right? Shea Kidd Brown (25:40): Yeah. John Currie (25:40): And so here at Wake Forest, where, you know, the circumstances of who we are means that we’re really highly selective, which is a great attribute, I believe that we’ve got to be really careful that highly selective is not arrogant. Shea Kidd Brown (25:53): Yeah. John Currie (25:53): And highly selective is not exclusive. Shea Kidd Brown (25:54): Exclusive. John Currie (25:55): That’s a real fine line to walk, right? Shea Kidd Brown (25:57): Yeah, it is. John Currie (25:58): There are a lot of people that really, really love Wake Forest who didn’t go to Wake Forest. And so we’ve even actually talked as a staff. When you see somebody wearing Wake stuff, you say, “Go Deacs.” Shea Kidd Brown (26:07): Yeah. John Currie (26:07): “Hey, how long you been a Wake fan?” Right? Shea Kidd Brown (26:09): Right. John Currie (26:09): Because this university exists in a lot of ways on the backs of people who loved Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (26:15): That’s right. John Currie (26:15): Served Wake Forest when they worked here, or when they were a volunteer in the community. There’s a guy named Burt Bennett, and he’s long deceased. He still has kids here. But Burt Bennett really helped drive the… He was a Carolina grad but he was a Winston-Salem person. He recognized what a significant thing Wake Forest was to Winston-Salem, how important the ACC was to Winston-Salem. Shea Kidd Brown (26:34): Yeah. John Currie (26:35): And so he was a big driver in building what is now Allegacy Federal Credit Union Stadium back in the sixties. I just think we’ve got to be really intentional- Shea Kidd Brown (26:43): Yeah. John Currie (26:43): … about making sure that Wake Forest is for everybody. You’ve got the We thing. Shea Kidd Brown (26:47): Yes. John Currie (26:47): Wake Forest, that “We” doesn’t mean just ‘cause you went here. Shea Kidd Brown (26:50): Right. Yeah. John Currie (26:50): There’s like 75 or 80,000 people that graduated from here, but we have 2.7 million fans. Shea Kidd Brown (26:55): Fans. John Currie (26:55): We got to embrace them all. Shea Kidd Brown (26:56): I appreciate you-you naming that because you know I do love Wake Forest, too. Wear black and gold every day. And it is important. You’ve really created a culture of inclusivity and, you know, whether it is a face-to-face event that is at the LJVM, or it is a football game, or a baseball game, or a soccer game, you always get a “Welcome to Wake Forest,” like you’re teams. And we partner with a lot of teams that aren’t employed by Wake Forest but you’ve really done an amazing job at creating a family-friendly environment, but a warm environment no matter who you’re rooting for. (27:30): And that’s important. But it’s also important that people work here and dedicate their lives here, that we are also a part of that we. So, thank you. And you didn’t just say it – I’ve seen your actions behind it. So, I appreciate that. (27:42): I want to take a turn a little bit because everything we’ve talked about so far is really grounding and calm. You know? And your job is really hard. It is an ever-changing, evolving environment, particularly the last few years. So, I’m curious how you’re navigating that, just as a human, you know. What keeps you grounded when the ground is literally changing each day? Talk a little bit about that. John Currie (28:11): Well, I appreciate it. This is an exhilarating job in lots of ways. Shea Kidd Brown (28:13): Mm-hmm. John Currie (28:14): It’s a hard job, but without sounding cliché, there are a lot of hard jobs out there. Right? Shea Kidd Brown (28:19): Sure. John Currie (28:19): I once was around a coach who kept talking on the circuit about these tremendous sacrifices that the families of the coaches were making. And we were right in the middle of a war. Shea Kidd Brown (28:29): Hmm. John Currie (28:29): And I’m kind of like, “Hey, Coach, there’s people out there in the audience. Their spouses are in Iraq.” Shea Kidd Brown (28:34): Yeah. Let’s think about our perspective. John Currie (28:35): Let’s think about what sacrifice really is. Right? Shea Kidd Brown (28:37): Yeah. John Currie (28:38): And so, you know, my kids have been moved without consultation a couple of times by decisions I made. But there’s plenty of good to go with the hard, and I’ve been able to be part of some incredible moments and stories and build stuff, and different places we’ve impacted people. (28:54): One of the letters, I still have a copy of it. We did this promotion when I first got to K State about the pledge, right. So, if you bought a season ticket for $99, you could continue to buy that ticket at $99 as long as you came to at least six games. Shea Kidd Brown (29:07): Hmm. John Currie (29:07): And I got this letter, and I had framed it because it defined what we were trying to accomplish. It was from the wife of the family. She said, “We’re so excited. We’re huge fans. My husband’s a teacher. We paint houses during the summer, and we’ve never been able to go. And this gives us the ability to go- Shea Kidd Brown (29:23): Amazing. John Currie (29:24): “… and be part of it.” Right? Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): Yeah. Yeah. John Currie (29:25): And so creating ways for people to be part. So, stuff like that is… keeps you going. Shea Kidd Brown (29:29): Yeah. John Currie (29:30): And then I will say I believe in work-life balance, and it’s okay to have work-life balance. Shea Kidd Brown (29:36): Mm-hmm. John Currie (29:37): I made peace with the reality that this job is not work-life balance, it’s work-life integration. Shea Kidd Brown (29:43): Mm-hmm. Me too. John Currie (29:43): You take the pros and you take the cons. Shea Kidd Brown (29:45): Right. John Currie (29:45): This is my 15th year as a Power Five athletic director. It’s my 31st year of college athletics, and so many people would have loved to have had that opportunity. You know, to be a champion-… I’ve been part of championships in the SEC and the ACC and the Big 12. I’ve been to great bowl games and been with incredible athletes. Shea Kidd Brown (30:01): Right. John Currie (30:02): And accomplishments and professors and been part of building academic buildings and athletic buildings, helped get more flights into an airport. I mean, I’ve, I’ve- Shea Kidd Brown (30:08): (laughs) John Currie (30:09): … been able to do some really cool stuff. What I’ve kind of made peace with is that the way that I do the job isn’t necessarily the right way to do the job. Shea Kidd Brown (30:15): Mm-hmm. John Currie (30:16): And I, I sometimes, I see some other, uh, ADs, I’m like, “Man, that person, she is doing it so much better than I am.” Shea Kidd Brown (30:21): (laughs) John Currie (30:21): “She’s so much more organized. She’s so much put together.” And what I’ve kind of realized is that the way I do the job is all in, all the time. Shea Kidd Brown (30:26): Hmm. John Currie (30:27): And that’s just the way I do the job. Shea Kidd Brown (30:29): Yeah. John Currie (30:29): And so as long as I can do it all in, all the time, I can do the job. If I get to the point that I can’t be all in, all the time, I can’t be effective. Shea Kidd Brown (30:36): That’s your signal. John Currie (30:37): So, that’s just the way I do it. Ron Wellman was athletic director 27 years. Gene Hooks was athletic director 28 years. Shea Kidd Brown (30:42): Hmm. John Currie (30:43): Dr. Hooks is like 95. Ron is younger. They’ll both be at the game tomorrow. I will not be athletic director at Wake Forest for 27 or 28 years. (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (30:50): Hmm. (laughs) ‘Cause you don’t feel like you can be all in, all the time for that long? John Currie (30:53): Just there’s, it’ll be time for somebody else to do it. Shea Kidd Brown (30:54): Yeah, yeah. So, I do have to ask, you know, the dynamics of NIL and transfer portal and litigation, you know, there’s a lot that’s part of the noise of this. So, how have you adjusted to that? You’re all in, all the time, and you are achieving work-life integration. I imagine some adjustments have had to have been made in terms of how you work. John Currie (31:16): Mm-hmm. Yeah, every year we have a graduation reception for student athletes and their families. Shea Kidd Brown (31:21): Mm-hmm. John Currie (31:21): And we’ve had incredible graduation… Long before I was here, incredible graduation- Shea Kidd Brown (31:23): Graduation rates? John Currie (31:25): … success here at Wake Forest. Jane Caldwell is our senior associate dean for academic services. But we do a graduation reception on Sundays. You know, we have graduation here at Wake Forest- Shea Kidd Brown (31:33): Mm-hmm. John Currie (31:33): … on Monday mornings so graduation reception on Sunday, about two hours. You know, it’s a really nice reception, etc. You know, it’s a very short program. And I realized this year walking around how I don’t know as many student-athletes as I knew before well- Shea Kidd Brown (31:46): Hmm, mm-hmm. John Currie (31:47): … right? And so part of that was because just not able to be as around as much as I wanna be around and- Shea Kidd Brown (31:52): Right. John Currie (31:52): … be with our athletes and our coaches. Part of it was because we have more athletes who have transferred in. Shea Kidd Brown (31:57): Right. John Currie (31:58): And then we have athletes who I got to know when they were freshmen or sophomore, might have transferred- Shea Kidd Brown (32:01): Out. John Currie (32:02): … out. So that’s a different thing. Shea Kidd Brown (32:03): Yeah. John Currie (32:04): But I still try to be around, gotta make sure I’m with every team- Shea Kidd Brown (32:07): Mm-hmm. John Currie (32:07): … at least once or twice a year. I go to games for everybody. I try to be as visible, go to practice when I can. But it’s not as much as I would like to. At its core, from what I see, what matters is still what matters. Shea Kidd Brown (32:19): Hmm. John Currie (32:20): And what matters is the most is still the opportunity to come to a place like Wake Forest- Shea Kidd Brown (32:25): Mm-hmm. John Currie (32:25): … and the relationship- Shea Kidd Brown (32:25): Right. John Currie (32:25): … that can be developed at a place like Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (32:26): Yeah. John Currie (32:30): That still matters. Shea Kidd Brown (32:31): Right. John Currie (32:32): Even if an athlete has a big NIL deal or next year a big licensing deal or whatever, ultimately, the real value is still gonna be what kind of relationship platform do we provide- Shea Kidd Brown (32:43): Mm-hmm. John Currie (32:43): … for our student-athletes to build relationships with each other, with their coaching- Shea Kidd Brown (32:46): Yeah. John Currie (32:46): … staff, with their professors. Different people will take advantage- Shea Kidd Brown (32:49): Right. John Currie (32:49): … of it in different ways just like any student. My belief is that I don’t know what it’s gonna look like three or four or five years from now, right? Shea Kidd Brown (32:55): Right. John Currie (32:56): It looks a lot different than it did 30 years ago, mostly for the good. You know, there’s some things that I wish weren’t like that. But generally speaking, the experience for a student-athlete is the best it’s ever been- Shea Kidd Brown (33:05): Yeah. John Currie (33:05): … in terms of support and medical care and [inaudible 00:33:07] blah, blah, blah. But to me, the more transactional the enterprise becomes, the more Wake Forest stands out as a place where you can have a steak and the sizzle- Shea Kidd Brown (33:17): Hmm. John Currie (33:17): … so to speak, right? Shea Kidd Brown (33:18): Mm-hmm. John Currie (33:19): The NIL stuff and money, that’s the sizzle. What’s the steak? What’s the meat? Bad pun. Shea Kidd Brown (33:21): (laughs) John Currie (33:25): But, you know, that and, and I would say as well, Shea, we’ve had incredible transfer students come to Wake Forest. Shea Kidd Brown (33:29): Yeah. John Currie (33:29): And, you know, credit our former Provost Kersh and Michele Gillespie, our current provost, and Dr. Hatch, Dr. Wente for helping Wake kinda modernize its approach to be more welcoming to transfers, in general- Shea Kidd Brown (33:40): Right. John Currie (33:40): … not just from an athlete standpoint. And my favorite thing about inbound transfer students that come to Wake Forest, they are educated consumers. Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): That’s true. John Currie (33:52): They have been somewhere else. Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): Right. John Currie (33:52): And so unlike freshmen who really, you know, you went on a lot of- Shea Kidd Brown (33:52): Yeah. John Currie (33:53): … college visits, whether you’re an athlete or non-athlete. You went to all these visits. Shea Kidd Brown (33:55): Yeah. John Currie (33:55): But until you’re like at a place- Shea Kidd Brown (33:56): Ex- in. John Currie (33:57): … you don’t really know what it is. Shea Kidd Brown (33:58): And you don’t have comparative analysis. John Currie (34:00): So, by and large, our transfer student-athletes who come here, whether they come from Louisiana Monroe or Michigan- Shea Kidd Brown (34:06): Mm-hmm. John Currie (34:06): … they come in here, they love it- Shea Kidd Brown (34:08): Yeah. John Currie (34:08): … generally speaking- Shea Kidd Brown (34:09): It’s different. John Currie (34:09): … right? And they appreciate the difference. Shea Kidd Brown (34:12): Mm-hmm. John Currie (34:13): And they appreciate what it means to have professors reach out to you. I remember we had a kicker who transferred in during COVID from another place, and he even said, “Yeah, my professor emailed me and invited me, you know, to join with some other students on this special Zoom thing.” And it just blew him away. Shea Kidd Brown (34:26): Hmm. John Currie (34:26): To me, as long we’re intentional and deeply relational- Shea Kidd Brown (34:30): (laughs) John Currie (34:32): … and continue to circle back to what really matters- Shea Kidd Brown (34:34): Yeah. John Currie (34:34): … about the enterprise, Wake Forest could be successful. Shea Kidd Brown (34:37): Yeah, I love that. And I’ve seen you demonstrate that. We’ve walked into various buildings together, and you know students by name. And I’ve seen that through our coaches and the work that they do. It is deeply relational. And I love how you describe what relationship platform can we build. Much of Wake Forest University is built upon our motto, Pro Humanitate, and, and what that means. So, as we close, I am curious what that means to you? John Currie (35:04): So, Pro Humanitate to me, we talk about this in some cabinet meetings- Shea Kidd Brown (35:08): Mm-hmm. John Currie (35:08): … or the President’s Leadership Team meetings. But I still think about, you know, Wake Forest being in Winston-Salem, North Carolina and why. You know, what our responsibility is in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (35:17): Mm-hmm. John Currie (35:18): And the people that invested thought this was a good idea in the 40s and 50s. I see our responsibility, why we were invited and incented to come to Winston-Salem is really impacting our community and elevating and being an asset, being a resource and, and create economic positive mobility, know what our, like our law school, our Dean, Dean, uh, Andy Klein. I, I went to the, uh, Martin Luther King Prayer Breakfast a few years ago, uh, which is a great event in Winston-Salem. I’ve been three or four times every time I’m in town. But I remember the, one of the honorees was a graduate of the Wake Forest School of Law. Shea Kidd Brown (35:50): Hmm. John Currie (35:51): And I realized that in this community there was a lot of Wake Law grads- Shea Kidd Brown (35:54): Mm-hmm. John Currie (35:55): … who impacted the community. Shea Kidd Brown (35:56): Right. John Currie (35:57): I just think that’s a huge part of, of our responsibility- Shea Kidd Brown (36:00): Right. John Currie (36:01): And I have lots of favorite things about my job, right? Shea Kidd Brown (36:03): (laughs) John Currie (36:03): Like I love walking into our facilities and seeing Marcina or Sandra or Larry. I’m just going down the list of- Shea Kidd Brown (36:10): (laughs) John Currie (36:11): … Rhino Sports and Entertainment Services, which are our green shirts- Shea Kidd Brown (36:14): Mm-hmm. John Currie (36:15): … and security. [inaudible 00:36:15] They’re our family. Shea Kidd Brown (36:16): Hmm. John Currie (36:17): And we’re their family. Shea Kidd Brown (36:18): Yeah. John Currie (36:19): Now, they’re doing a great job. Shea Kidd Brown (36:20): Yeah. John Currie (36:20): D- that collective together doing a great job. Shea Kidd Brown (36:23): Mm-hmm. John Currie (36:23): It’s a pretty, uh, divided, fragmented, anxious world, right? Shea Kidd Brown (36:28): Yeah. John Currie (36:28): And when you’re coming to one of those events in Winston-Salem and we’re all together- Shea Kidd Brown (36:32): Yeah. John Currie (36:33): … that, that’s what we really should be about. Shea Kidd Brown (36:35): I love that. Thank you. John Currie (36:36): Thank you, Dr. Kidd Brown. Shea Kidd Brown (36:38): It’s really good. (laughs) John Currie (36:38): I’m glad I had this opportunity to just chill out and- Shea Kidd Brown (36:41): Yeah. John Currie (36:41): … just talk. Shea Kidd Brown (36:41): I mean, it’s, it’s… We don’t get this often, you know. John Currie (36:44): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (36:44): So, it’s one of my favorite things to hear what makes you tick and how you define this great place. And you’re in a unique position because you were a student and are a part of the enterprise from a professional standpoint now, and you’re really good at what you do. So, I appreciate our partnership, our ability to dream up a lot of different things together. John Currie (37:04): I just wanna be a contributing person that our Campus, uh, Life staff can feel proud of. Shea Kidd Brown (37:09): Well, and likewise, vice versa. (laughs) So, as we close, I just wanna thank you again for the opportunity. Anything you’re looking forward to in, for the future? John Currie (37:18): Really excited about the progress we’re making under President Wente’s leadership and the continued growth and development of our campus. I’m excited about the Grounds. I saw the frame for the big sign that’s going in. Shea Kidd Brown (37:28): Nice. John Currie (37:29): It’s gonna be a big sign. Shea Kidd Brown (37:30): (laughs) John Currie (37:30): I’m excited about that, too. Shea Kidd Brown (37:31): Well, good. Well, lots to be excited about. Thank you again. John Currie (37:34): Thanks, Shea. Leanna Bernish (37:36): Thank you for taking the time to listen. Yes, you are correct. I’m not Dr. Shea. My name is Leanna Bernish, and I’m the Campus Life Fellow. I work alongside Dr. Shea to produce this podcast. (37:47): At the time of the recording, Dr. Shea had to be out of town unexpectedly, but she truly appreciates the opportunity to talk with such a talented and dedicated leader, John Currie. The world of athletics is constantly changing, so having a director of athletics who is grounded and thinks of our teams as part of his family helps to maintain our distinctive athletics program here at Wake Forest. (38:07): As I reflect on this episode, I’m also thinking about the thread of togetherness. Athletics plays such a role in bringing us together, whether it’s through bonding with teammates, learning life lessons through practice and match, to lively discussions about last night’s game. As John said, “Home is being around people, being a part of a team, team goals, and camaraderie.” (38:27): On behalf of Dr. Shea, I want to extend my gratitude to John for the conversation, and to you for taking the time to listen. Until next time, friends, keep leaning into hard work and heart work. We all have something to contribute to the world, I “Kidd” you not. MaryAnna Bailey (38:42): For any thoughts and suggestions on what, or who, you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06): Hello, and thank you for joining us today for Kidd You Not. Today, I am so excited to talk to Wake Forest Head Women’s Golf Coach, Kim Lewellen. Coach Lewellen joined the Wake Forest community in 2019 and has continued her distinguished career that has included tenures at The Citadel, East Carolina, and the University of Virginia. (00:26): In her fifth season at Wake Forest, Coach Lewellen led the team to its first national title in women’s golf program history. The Deacs also won a record five regular season titles, and had a program record five all ACC selections. Lewellen also coached four All Americans and three Arnold Palmer Cup selections on the ’22 – ’23 team, along with the program’s first ever back-to-back ACC player of the year, in Rachel Kuehn. (00:57): During the ’21 – ’22 season, our ACC coach of the year led The Deacs to their second ACC title in four years and made an appearance at the NCAA championship, for the fourth time in a row. Truly, the list goes on, and on, and on. But, instead of continuing to share these many accolades, I’m excited for you to hear from the coach herself, so let’s welcome Coach Kim Lewellen. (01:20): Well, hello. Kim Lewellen (01:21): Hello. Shea Kidd Brown (01:22): Coach Lewellen, I’m so glad to have you here on the podcast. Kim Lewellen (01:25): Well, I’m excited to be here, Dr. Shea. I’ve looked forward to this. Uh, we’ve talked about it a lot, so- Shea Kidd Brown (01:29): We have. Kim Lewellen (01:30): … glad to be here. Shea Kidd Brown (01:31): Well, thank you. I know it’s busy. The life of a coach is different than it used to be, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (01:35): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (01:35): So, it’s always been busy- Kim Lewellen (01:37): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (01:38): … but e- it’s layered- Kim Lewellen (01:38): It is. Shea Kidd Brown (01:38): … let’s just say. S- Kim Lewellen (01:39): It is. You know, I’ve been coaching now, 20 plus years, and w- how it started to where it’s now, like you were saying, “busy.” Shea Kidd Brown (01:47): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (01:47): It’s just like any profession- Shea Kidd Brown (01:48): Right. Kim Lewellen (01:49): … think you can do a lot more in a day than you used to. I drove over here in the golf cart- Shea Kidd Brown (01:55): (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (01:55): … from the Arnold Palmer complex eating a bar- Shea Kidd Brown (01:55): Oh, wow. Kim Lewellen (01:56): … God, all right, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (01:57): Yeah. Right there with you having a meeting and, and then coming here. But I remember running into you in the Pit this summer- Kim Lewellen (02:02): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (02:03): … and just talking about our need to connect- Kim Lewellen (02:04): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:04): … ’cause we haven’t gotten to do that very much. Kim Lewellen (02:06): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:07): We’ve been, kind of, big settings, but not one to one- Kim Lewellen (02:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:10): … sitting across the table from each other. Kim Lewellen (02:12): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:12): So, I’m thrilled. Kim Lewellen (02:12): And I was telling, uh, one of our players, I said, “I’m going to go, uh, talk with Dr. Shea.” And she goes, “Just love her. She’s always at the Pit.” Shea Kidd Brown (02:19): Aw, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (02:19): She’s always at the Pit. Shea Kidd Brown (02:20): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (02:20): I appreciate it. She’s always got a smile and talking to us at the Pit. Shea Kidd Brown (02:23): Oh, well, good. Kim Lewellen (02:23): So, uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:23): I’m glad to hear that. Kim Lewellen (02:23): So, yeah, s- Shea Kidd Brown (02:26): And I’ve got to get over to talk to them. Kim Lewellen (02:27): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:27): Maybe that’s something we can plan. Kim Lewellen (02:28): Oh, that would be wonderful. Shea Kidd Brown (02:29): Is… yeah. So I imagine we’re gonna talk about golf, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (02:32): Right? (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (02:35): But I wanna go back, yeah, I wanna understand home. Kim Lewellen (02:36): Huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:36): I know you’re North Carolinian. Kim Lewellen (02:37): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (02:38): But where’s home for you originally? Kim Lewellen (02:39): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (02:41): And what does home mean to you? Kim Lewellen (02:42): I am from Raleigh. What does home mean to me? I would say, and I guess it’s what you’d hear a lot of people say. But home is where your people are, right? Shea Kidd Brown (02:51): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (02:52): And so as you can tell, I wear my emotions on my sleeve, my girls would say. And my girls, I mean, my team, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (02:55): Yeah, right. Kim Lewellen (02:56): … ’cause I do have two young boys as well, uh, they’re older now. But I grew up in Raleigh, grew up right across from a golf course. Shea Kidd Brown (03:03): Mm-hmm, okay. Kim Lewellen (03:03): Both my parents worked and every morning they’d leave for work, and I’d ride my bike up to the golf course and- Shea Kidd Brown (03:08): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (03:09): … I learned to love a community. Shea Kidd Brown (03:12): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (03:12): Not only the golf course, but wherever you’re at. Shea Kidd Brown (03:14): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (03:15): People and the commonalities that bring you there. And so home is Raleigh where my people are. Shea Kidd Brown (03:19): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (03:19): And then for most of my life, it was actually at the golf course. Shea Kidd Brown (03:22): Wow, love that framing. You know, we all have different definitions of what home means to us. I’m from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, originally. Kim Lewellen (03:29): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (03:30): And how you just capture that, where your people are, that is true because it can transcend. There’s part of Winston now that is home because that’s where my people are, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (03:37): Exactly, exactly, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (03:39): And, you know, I left Knoxville, Tennessee, and that’s… some of the people are still there. Kim Lewellen (03:42): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (03:42): So, I love that. Kim Lewellen (03:43): My husband’s family was from Tupelo, Mississippi. Shea Kidd Brown (03:46): Oh, really? Kim Lewellen (03:46): Yes, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (03:47): I did not know that. Wow. Kim Lewellen (03:49): Uh-huh. He was born in Milan, Tennessee, right, so- Shea Kidd Brown (03:53): Oh, great. And you said it right, because in Tennessee- Kim Lewellen (03:53): Right, I know, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (03:54): … for those who are listening- Kim Lewellen (03:56): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (03:56): … it’s spelled Milan, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (04:03): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (04:03): … but only in Tennessee- Kim Lewellen (04:03): In Tennessee. Shea Kidd Brown (04:03): … do you pronounce it Milan, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (04:03): Exactly, exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (04:03): Yeah, yeah, small world. Kim Lewellen (04:03): So, uh, so, uh, he’s from, from that area. You know, I’ve been fortunate wherever life has taken me… Shea Kidd Brown (04:08): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:08): … which has been many places, um, from Raleigh, but I’ve lived in North Carolina, lived in South Carolina, lived in Virginia, lived in Scotland. Shea Kidd Brown (04:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:15): And, and I have a lot of… wherever I’m at- Shea Kidd Brown (04:18): Right. Kim Lewellen (04:18): And the, the people that you’re with, that’s home for you, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (04:21): Yeah. I love that. And knowing that really, your origin story, like golf is, it sounds like synonymous with, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (04:26): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (04:27): … you know, that from the very beginning, because I was wondering just as a child, what were you were like- Kim Lewellen (04:32): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (04:33): … and at what point golf entered the scene and… So, it sounds like very, very early. Kim Lewellen (04:36): Very early. Shea Kidd Brown (04:37): Oh, yeah. Kim Lewellen (04:37): And it was a community of people that we all enjoy learning something together. Shea Kidd Brown (04:41): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:42): And it, it became part of me at, at an early age, and- Shea Kidd Brown (04:44): Yeah, so how old were you exactly? Kim Lewellen (04:46): Uh, I started riding my bike up to the golf course, probably at 9 and 10. Shea Kidd Brown (04:50): Wow, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (04:51): Uh-huh, (laughs). You know, and that… they, they didn’t know, but they were also my babysitters, right? (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (04:55): Yeah, that’s really [inaudible 00:04:56]. Kim Lewellen (04:56): But it was a nice, safe environment for me. Shea Kidd Brown (04:58): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (04:59): And I still… fond memories and still have some of my best friends from that area- Shea Kidd Brown (05:03): Wow. Kim Lewellen (05:03): … and, uh, are there, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (05:05): So, did your parents golf as well? Kim Lewellen (05:07): Mm-hmm, my father was a very, very good golfer. Shea Kidd Brown (05:09): Okay. Kim Lewellen (05:09): My mother did not, but she could tell you everything about it just by default, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (05:11): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (05:13): I live on Faculty Drive- Shea Kidd Brown (05:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (05:14): … which is a pitching wedge from our golf facility. Shea Kidd Brown (05:17): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (05:18): So, very close. Shea Kidd Brown (05:18): Very close. Kim Lewellen (05:19): And on the 13th, tee box of Old Town, which is our- Shea Kidd Brown (05:20): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (05:21): … where we play. And since I’ve moved here, a really neat story for those that know Coach Dailey, Dianne Dailey- Shea Kidd Brown (05:27): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (05:27): … performing. She’s one of my closest friends. Was, obviously, an instigator in me being here but- Shea Kidd Brown (05:31): I like that word, instigator, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (05:34): (laughs), uh, you know, but she said, when this house came available on Faculty Drive. Shea Kidd Brown (05:37): Got it. Kim Lewellen (05:37): Yeah, you got it. Shea Kidd Brown (05:37): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (05:38): Yeah, grab this house. Shea Kidd Brown (05:39): Right. Kim Lewellen (05:40): It’s just right where you need to be. And we were fortunate, we grabbed that and built an addition for my mom. Shea Kidd Brown (05:45): Aw, wonderful. Kim Lewellen (05:46): So my, my father passed a, a while ago, but now she lives here with us and, and she’s the biggest golf fan. Shea Kidd Brown (05:52): Oh, I’m sure. Kim Lewellen (05:52): And she knows every one of my players. Shea Kidd Brown (05:53): Of course. Kim Lewellen (05:54): She’s like, I walk in and she’ll say, “Now, why did so and so not do so well…” Shea Kidd Brown (05:57): Oh, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (05:59): “… and you need a… what are you gonna do about it?” Yeah, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (06:01): I was gonna say, it’s certainly yours to fix, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (06:04): Right, exactly, (laughs). So, it’s been a big part of, uh, my life. Shea Kidd Brown (06:06): Yeah, and what a full circle in terms of that’s how you grew up with a golf course across the street, and now- Kim Lewellen (06:11): Yeah, mm-hmm, oh yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (06:12): … coaching stuff still, you can, you know, see it- Kim Lewellen (06:13): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (06:13): … um, in a distance. Kim Lewellen (06:13): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (06:16): So, that’s really cool. Now, there’s a lot that I wanna unpack that you just shared, (laughs), like, what kind of kid were you? Were you quiet, outgoing? What other interests did you have? Kim Lewellen (06:26): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (06:26): Do you remember? Kim Lewellen (06:27): And I think a lot of people are probably like this. You are outgoing in the places that you’re comfortable, right? Shea Kidd Brown (06:33): Yeah, true. Kim Lewellen (06:34): So, it was very comfortable in the golf course. Shea Kidd Brown (06:34): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (06:35): So, I was outgoing on the golf course. I met my husband on the golf course- Shea Kidd Brown (06:39): Okay. Kim Lewellen (06:39): … but had known him… we went to elementary school together- Shea Kidd Brown (06:43): You hadn’t se- Kim Lewellen (06:43): … but I had never had the courage to talk to him. Shea Kidd Brown (06:44): Oh, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (06:49): N- (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (06:49): So- Kim Lewellen (06:49): He, he was, sort of, the cool kid. Shea Kidd Brown (06:50): Okay. Kim Lewellen (06:50): All right, he was the cool kid. Shea Kidd Brown (06:50): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (06:50): Uh, played all the sports. At school, I was to myself- Shea Kidd Brown (06:54): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (06:54): … and actually just looked forward to getting home to go to the golf course, right? And to my- Shea Kidd Brown (06:57): Right, to your, back to your people. Kim Lewellen (06:58): … ba- back to my people. Fast-forward till we were 20 years old, and I had met him a few times again throughout my young adult life. At 20, he was at the golf course, and again, that was my place. Shea Kidd Brown (07:08): Right. Kim Lewellen (07:09): So, then I’m out-, outgoing Shea Kidd Brown (07:10): Then you show him something. Kim Lewellen (07:11): “Hey, can I play golf with you?” Shea Kidd Brown (07:12): (laughs), yeah, “Let me show you something.” Kim Lewellen (07:13): You know, pretended like I didn’t know who he was- Shea Kidd Brown (07:14): Right. Kim Lewellen (07:14): … knew nothing about it- Shea Kidd Brown (07:14): Right. Kim Lewellen (07:15): … but I could tell you everything about it. Shea Kidd Brown (07:17): Uh, and you were quite good at that point, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (07:22): And that… right, and then that was my, but that was my, uh, place. So, I think on the golf course or wherever- Shea Kidd Brown (07:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (07:23): … I’m very comfortable. Shea Kidd Brown (07:25): Sure. Kim Lewellen (07:25): I’m very outgoing, but, like, us all, if there’s something I’m not real familiar with- Shea Kidd Brown (07:29): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (07:30): … a situation that is a little uncomfortable, I, I’m probably about like everybody else. Shea Kidd Brown (07:33): Yeah, sort of an observer. Kim Lewellen (07:34): You know, just, sort of, an observer- Shea Kidd Brown (07:35): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (07:36): … taking it in. But yeah, as a coach and, and probably in your similar, there are times that you have to be outgoing. Shea Kidd Brown (07:42): Sure. Kim Lewellen (07:42): Your comfort zone may not be that. Shea Kidd Brown (07:43): Mm-hmm, yeah. Kim Lewellen (07:44): I say, “Come on, Kim.” Shea Kidd Brown (07:45): The role- Kim Lewellen (07:45): I’ve got to coach myself- Shea Kidd Brown (07:46): Yeah, yeah, that’s right, the role- Kim Lewellen (07:47): … “I got this. I got this.” I can walk into this situation and do it, so. Shea Kidd Brown (07:50): … requires that, yeah, I heard someone say, once upon a time, they are a flextrovert, (laughs), and so- Kim Lewellen (07:52): Yeah, I love that, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (07:56): … you had to be able to turn it on when they have to, and when you’re in posi- Kim Lewellen (07:58): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (07:59): … positional leadership, you, sort of, have to agree to that. Many would probably categorize as both, as outgoing, but there are moments when you’re always on where you need just- Kim Lewellen (08:09): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (08:09): … Kim time, or Shea time, a moment, right? Kim Lewellen (08:10): (laughs), and to trust. Shea Kidd Brown (08:11): Exactly. Be yourself. Kim Lewellen (08:11): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (08:13): Yeah. And you said you’re an only child? Kim Lewellen (08:14): So I’m an only child. Father, he did retire early, which… when I was 16, we would go play golf every afternoon. Shea Kidd Brown (08:22): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (08:22): So, other hobbies, probably golf, golf, and golf. Shea Kidd Brown (08:24): (laughs), yeah. Kim Lewellen (08:25): And I still… when, um, I’m getting ready to go to bed, I’m still looking at golf swings. Shea Kidd Brown (08:30): Yeah, uh. Kim Lewellen (08:30): And just that’s, sort of, what I like to do. Shea Kidd Brown (08:31): Right. Kim Lewellen (08:31): And I like to be with friends and family. Shea Kidd Brown (08:33): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (08:34): And I enjoy vacations with family and friends. Shea Kidd Brown (08:37): Sure. Kim Lewellen (08:37): And being around the… my players. Didn’t branch out much, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (08:40): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (08:43): Hey, I was majorette for a hot minute. Shea Kidd Brown (08:44): Oh, really? Kim Lewellen (08:45): But, um, and I wasn’t very good at it, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (08:46): Didn’t catch on, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (08:49): Yeah, exac- uh, actually, I didn’t catch on at all. Shea Kidd Brown (08:50): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (08:51): So, so no pun i- there is a pun intended, you know, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (08:54): That’s so funny. What you were describing to me is passion- Kim Lewellen (08:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (08:58): Like, when we’re passionate about something, even when you’re thinking about something else, you can make those connections. Kim Lewellen (09:02): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (09:03): Like, my friends joke with me and even my husband sometimes, like, for me, beach books are, like, leadership, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (09:10): Yes, yes. Shea Kidd Brown (09:10): Something where I’m, taking a concept, and so I’m not really good at just a beach read. Kim Lewellen (09:14): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (09:15): I have to have something substantive that I can bring- Kim Lewellen (09:18): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:18): … back to what I love, which is- Kim Lewellen (09:19): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (09:20): … the college experience and human development and, and all those sorts of things. Kim Lewellen (09:23): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:24): So, I very much understand. Kim Lewellen (09:25): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:26): And you will appreciate that golf is on at my house a lot, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (09:28): Oh, good, oh, good. Shea Kidd Brown (09:31): So, my husband is a huge fan of yours. Kim Lewellen (09:32): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (09:32): He actually participated in the board event for spouses, and- Kim Lewellen (09:37): Yes, it was, it was, uh- Shea Kidd Brown (09:38): So, he got to go- Kim Lewellen (09:38): Oh, nice, oh yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:40): … and see the facilities, meet some of the women, and I think I told you we went to the US Open when he was here- Kim Lewellen (09:45): Yes, yes. Shea Kidd Brown (09:46): … just, uh, in Pinehurst a few months ago. So, he is very much a big fan. Kim Lewellen (09:50): Oh, thanks. Shea Kidd Brown (09:50): So, I see it. And he loves sports, period. Kim Lewellen (09:52): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (09:52): But let’s say golf is what’s one, like- Kim Lewellen (09:54): Oh, I love that. Well, he needs to continue to come in and hang out because- Shea Kidd Brown (09:57): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (09:57): … what’s so nice, and you know this, but we’re fortunate to have such a nice golf men and women on the team- Shea Kidd Brown (10:03): Mm-hmm, right. Kim Lewellen (10:04): … and they end up usually playing, at least, half of them- Shea Kidd Brown (10:08): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (10:08): … professionally to where it’s so much fun to follow them- Shea Kidd Brown (10:10): That, that’s so fun. Kim Lewellen (10:11): … after where they get out to and, and watch them reach those dreams that they have so. Shea Kidd Brown (10:15): Yeah, and correspondence, and writing books, and, you know, (laughs), [inaudible 00:10:16]. Kim Lewellen (10:16): Oh, yeah, exactly, right? (laughs), exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (10:18): Yeah, it’s, it’s incredible to watch. So, we talked about childhood- Kim Lewellen (10:22): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (10:22): … a little bit about golf and how that came into your childhood and experience. And I love hearing about your dad and- Kim Lewellen (10:28): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (10:28): … those connections being a majorette, so- Kim Lewellen (10:29): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (10:29): … um, so I’m gonna fast-forward. Kim Lewellen (10:33): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:33): I’m sure there’s a lot of life we could talk about. Kim Lewellen (10:35): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:35):

Maybe we could have a part two at some point. But you had a distinguished college career even before coaching. Kim Lewellen (10:40): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:41): So, I loved reading a little bit about that. So, will you share just a little bit about maybe some highlights from college- Kim Lewellen (10:48): Mm-hmm, mmh. Shea Kidd Brown (10:48): … and then what was that journey like to coaching? Kim Lewellen (10:50): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (10:50): So from playing, to- Kim Lewellen (10:51): Well, I went into college, probably a lot like a lot of students and student athletes do, uh, not sure what I wanna do. Shea Kidd Brown (10:58): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (10:59): I, I, I think I changed my major five times like we all do, right? Shea Kidd Brown (11:01): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (11:01): So, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (11:03): Like, we all- Kim Lewellen (11:04): Yeah, and then- Shea Kidd Brown (11:04): … students who are listening, like, we all do, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (11:06): (laughs), we all do, okay? You go in there thinking this way, and then you veer this way, and then end up in one direction. Uh, very normal, everybody, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (11:13): Yes, absolutely. Kim Lewellen (11:14): Uh- Shea Kidd Brown (11:14): And they need to hear that. Kim Lewellen (11:14): I know. Shea Kidd Brown (11:14): People, they need to hear that. Kim Lewellen (11:17): I know. I went to the University of North Carolina. At the time I was recruited, Wake didn’t have a coach at the time. Shea Kidd Brown (11:21): Okay. Kim Lewellen (11:22): And then Coach Dianne Dailey, who’s now- Shea Kidd Brown (11:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:24): … you know, one of my closest friends, got a job day one. And again, I’m from North Carolina, so she calls me up and says, “Hey, would you like to visit Wake?” Shea Kidd Brown (11:30): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:30): And I was like, “I just co- committed already…” Shea Kidd Brown (11:33): Oh, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (11:33): “… but, you know…” So I missed a little bit of that opportunity- Shea Kidd Brown (11:34): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:35): … because again, this is a great place, but it was fortunate. I had a wonderful experience at the University of North Carolina. Shea Kidd Brown (11:39): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:40): Became a really nice golfer there. And I think that’s one of the passions that I have for coaching is- Shea Kidd Brown (11:44): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:45): … I wanted to play at the highest level I could. Shea Kidd Brown (11:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (11:49): A- and I was fortunate enough to have coaches and people around me, and that supported me in that. I went in there thinking I wasn’t going to play professionally- Shea Kidd Brown (11:56): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (11:56): … or even use probably golf as a career, and then ended up playing very well, was an All American there, ranked actually number one going into the NCAAs. We didn’t win it- Shea Kidd Brown (12:05): Mm-hmm, yeah. Kim Lewellen (12:06): …. but we finished with being ranked really well. Shea Kidd Brown (12:08): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (12:08): And decided that I would do it for a living. And so I played professionally off and on up until my first child was born at the age of 30. Shea Kidd Brown (12:15): Wow. Is that what took you to- Kim Lewellen (12:17): It wasn’t successful enough to make a- Shea Kidd Brown (12:18): Okay. Kim Lewellen (12:18): … great living at it. Shea Kidd Brown (12:19): Uh-huh. Kim Lewellen (12:20): But enough that I still enjoyed it, and it was competitive. Shea Kidd Brown (12:23): Yeah, now is that what took you to Scotland? Kim Lewellen (12:24): My children were born. Shea Kidd Brown (12:26): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (12:26): A sabbatical from golf at that time. Shea Kidd Brown (12:28): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (12:28): And my husband was doing postgraduate work at the University of Edinburgh- Shea Kidd Brown (12:34): Oh. Kim Lewellen (12:34): … in theology. Shea Kidd Brown (12:35): Yes. Kim Lewellen (12:37): And so Søren Kierkegaard’s Works of Love was his- Shea Kidd Brown (12:39): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (12:39): … main subject at the time. Shea Kidd Brown (12:41): Wow. Kim Lewellen (12:41): Which was, uh, very interesting, by the way- Shea Kidd Brown (12:43): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (12:43): … for anybody that, that’s interested in, sort of, the philosophical views of Søren Kierkegaard, very interesting by the way, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (12:48): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (12:49): But anyway, so he did that and my children were very small, which gave me, which was wonderful, a time just to be a mom- Shea Kidd Brown (12:57): Right. Kim Lewellen (12:58): … and just to enjoy that moment of my life- Shea Kidd Brown (12:59): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (13:00): … ’cause I had always been playing professional sports- Shea Kidd Brown (13:02): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:02): … and focused on myself to be fair. Shea Kidd Brown (13:04): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (13:04): And so this allowed me to, to focus on being mom for about two and a half, three years. Shea Kidd Brown (13:08): And motherhood, it vanishes like that, that, especially that period of time. Kim Lewellen (13:11): It’s like that, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (13:11): It goes by so fast. Kim Lewellen (13:11): Yeah, yeah. And so then we moved back into the Charleston area and my husband took a job there at a church. I wanted to get back into the golf industry- Shea Kidd Brown (13:21): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:21): … wasn’t gonna anymore. Shea Kidd Brown (13:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:23): I was in a tennis match. It was a professional tennis match down in Daniel Island, and I look over, and Les Robinson, who was the athletic director for NC State when I was a kid- Shea Kidd Brown (13:32): Oh, wow, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (13:33): … so I noticed him, right? Shea Kidd Brown (13:34): Uh-huh. Kim Lewellen (13:34): And I’m like, “There’s Les Robinson.” You know? Shea Kidd Brown (13:36): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (13:37): And I was like, “He’s the AD at the Citadel. Like, I knew this for some reason. Shea Kidd Brown (13:40): Mmh, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:41): And I think my husband probably told me, he wa- he was sitting beside me and, say, “So, I wanna go talk to him.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:45): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (13:45): And just… I went up to him and I said, you know, “Hi, I’m Kim Lewellen. I love golf. Golf has been my background…” Shea Kidd Brown (13:50): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (13:50): “… if you need a men’s or women’s golf coach, just know that I’m in the area.” Shea Kidd Brown (13:53): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (13:54): He said, “Well, as of now, we don’t…” Shea Kidd Brown (13:56): Oh my God. Kim Lewellen (13:57): “… but would you be interested in marketing?” Shea Kidd Brown (13:57): Wow. Kim Lewellen (13:57): I guess, he goes, (laughs), yeah, yeah, he goes, “Come to my office tomorrow.” And I said, “Well, I’ll go to your office and we’ll talk but don’t know about marketing. I’ll hear you out.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:05): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (14:06): So anyway, long story short, few weeks later, he called and said, “There’s a men’s and women’s position open for the golf program.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:12): No way. Kim Lewellen (14:13): I was at the Citadel, which was right when women were first allowed to go. Shea Kidd Brown (14:17): Right, I was gonna say. Kim Lewellen (14:17): Started my, uh, coaching and my love of coaching and- Shea Kidd Brown (14:20): Right, wow. Kim Lewellen (14:21): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (14:21): Thank you for sharing that. I think so many lessons that can be learned from just being courageous- Kim Lewellen (14:28): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:29): … and starting a conversation, asking for what you need. Kim Lewellen (14:30): Yeah, there is some movie- Shea Kidd Brown (14:30): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (14:31): I don’t know what movie it is, but I played in my head all the time and it said, “Don’t be scared for those 10 seconds. Go do that…” Shea Kidd Brown (14:38): Right. Kim Lewellen (14:38): It… “Go take… be scared and nervous…” Shea Kidd Brown (14:40): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (14:41): “… or whatever it is to go make that move for 10 seconds.” Shea Kidd Brown (14:43): For those 10 seconds. Yeah, life changing. Kim Lewellen (14:44): It’s life changing. Shea Kidd Brown (14:45): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (14:46): I mean, if I hadn’t done that, I might not have been coaching, you know. Shea Kidd Brown (14:49): That’s wild, (laughs), that’s wild. Kim Lewellen (14:49): And so, right, right, right, right, so, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:52): And then to do so in such a groundbreaking way- Kim Lewellen (14:56): Ground breaking, yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (14:56): … you know, given the history of the Citadel. Kim Lewellen (14:57): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (14:58): I bet as your first coaching stint, you learned quite a bit. Kim Lewellen (15:00): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (15:01): Can you think back to lessons that you learned there? Kim Lewellen (15:03): Oh, oh, very much so. And one for just young people that are listening to this a- and wanting to get into jobs, it’s been interesting. You know, I didn’t think of it at the time, I was looking for a job in the golf industry. Shea Kidd Brown (15:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:14): Her first coaching job was at a military school- Shea Kidd Brown (15:16): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:16): … where you’re really not paid very well- Shea Kidd Brown (15:18): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:19): … and it’s very tough, and can you imagine recruiting, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (15:22): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (15:23): … women golfers into the military situation- Shea Kidd Brown (15:26): Into that, right. Kim Lewellen (15:26): … where they’re cutting their hair an inch, can’t wear any makeup- Shea Kidd Brown (15:29): No. Kim Lewellen (15:29): … they’re having to do boot camp- Shea Kidd Brown (15:31): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:31): … for the first month. They were like, “You took a risk…” Shea Kidd Brown (15:34): Totally. Kim Lewellen (15:34): “… and you did something completely out of your norm.” I think that’s a lesson to be learned. Shea Kidd Brown (15:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (15:39): Went in there, not necessarily confident, never coached. Shea Kidd Brown (15:42): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:43): Just learned a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (15:44): I bet, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (15:44): … from all of that that helped me move up the ladder. Shea Kidd Brown (15:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:48): And so I think a lesson learned is, don’t be scared of something that might look difficult- Shea Kidd Brown (15:53): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (15:53): … or that might be uncomfortable. Shea Kidd Brown (15:54): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (15:55): I, I had never been in the military or understood that. Shea Kidd Brown (15:57): (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (15:58): And I cut my hair, and- Shea Kidd Brown (15:59): Did you? Kim Lewellen (16:00): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:01): Oh, oh, was that something you were required to do, or- Kim Lewellen (16:03): No. Shea Kidd Brown (16:03): … you did it to be- Kim Lewellen (16:04): I did it because I didn’t wanna have the long hair- Shea Kidd Brown (16:07): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:07): … when my players were having to get their hair cut. Shea Kidd Brown (16:09): Yeah, um- Kim Lewellen (16:09): Uh, part of- Shea Kidd Brown (16:10): … appreciating the culture, and- Kim Lewellen (16:11): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (16:12): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:12): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (16:13): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:13): So I think that was a lesson learned that even taken throughout that- Shea Kidd Brown (16:17): Sure. Kim Lewellen (16:18): … don’t forget, you know, the hard stuff teaches you a lot- Shea Kidd Brown (16:22): Yeah, absolutely, well, that’s where the growth happens. Kim Lewellen (16:24): … and you al- you al- yeah, exactly, exactly, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (16:26): You know, it’s just, it’s just like coasting. I’m like, “Yeah, I’m completely happier. These are my people.” Kim Lewellen (16:29): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:29): I’ve always heard of people, there’s… that’s fun- Kim Lewellen (16:31): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (16:32): … but there’s not a lot of growth that happens now. Kim Lewellen (16:33): Growth, no. Shea Kidd Brown (16:33): So from the Citadel, you went to East Carolina. Kim Lewellen (16:38): Went to East Carolina. My oldest son is autistic and high functioning but also has some other developmental challenges. Shea Kidd Brown (16:46): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (16:46): And so we really started to notice it when we lived in that area, and we were fortunate in that area they have, uh, a children’s hospital- Shea Kidd Brown (16:54): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (16:54): It’s really helpful in identifying those. Shea Kidd Brown (16:56): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (16:56): And so at that time, we decided that we needed to move closer to home ’cause I also had my youngest son, too- Shea Kidd Brown (17:02): That community. Kim Lewellen (17:03): … needed, that needed my community, (laughs)- Shea Kidd Brown (17:04): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (17:05): … to help me at a time to, sort of, figure out how to navigate some of this. Shea Kidd Brown (17:08): And how old was he? Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:08): Uh, he was four. Shea Kidd Brown (17:08): Okay. Kim Lewellen (17:11): And so we moved to Raleigh, North Carolina area. Shea Kidd Brown (17:13): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:14): And I was there at that moment, I was actually doing some freelancing things with the golf channel- Shea Kidd Brown (17:21): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (17:21): … which was working well with my schedule that I needed to with my son. Shea Kidd Brown (17:24): Right. Kim Lewellen (17:25): We were just, sort of, looking for the next thing that we were gonna do, but being with… where we needed to be at that moment. Shea Kidd Brown (17:29): A certain radius. Kim Lewellen (17:30): Right, um, because both my in-laws and my parents were there. So East Carolina came available. And one of my friends that I had met in the coaching realms when I was at the Citadel calls me and says, “Kim, just go look at it…” Shea Kidd Brown (17:42): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:42): ‘… you know, I think you’ll be able to do this, continue to do some of your Golf Channel stuff.” Shea Kidd Brown (17:47): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:47): Which was allowing some income. Shea Kidd Brown (17:49): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:49): ‘Cause back then coaches are to support a family, right? Shea Kidd Brown (17:52): Right. Kim Lewellen (17:53): And so I could still do some of that, while I’m having s- a little bit more time with my son. Shea Kidd Brown (17:57): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (17:58): I mean, just, sort of, figuring out what to do. So I went to East Carolina, we were very successful really quickly. Shea Kidd Brown (18:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:05): They won their conference championship, and it was the first one they’d ever won. I don’t think they’ve won one since, (laughs), starting with- Shea Kidd Brown (18:11): Wow, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (18:13): Shh, don’t… so… but Coach Williams, you’re really, really good, but- Shea Kidd Brown (18:15): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (18:15): And I love you, and I wouldn’t be where I am without you. So, my coaching kept evolving. Shea Kidd Brown (18:19): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (18:19): You know, ’cause at the Citadel was a different level. You’re having folks that are shooting 90 and you’re trying to get them to break 80. Shea Kidd Brown (18:24): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:24): Well, then you’re at East Carolina- Shea Kidd Brown (18:25): (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (18:26): … these are really nice golfers and you’re trying to get them to break 75. Shea Kidd Brown (18:28): Yeah, improvement, but different. Kim Lewellen (18:29): And always in… but different. And so I think my coaching skills, again, were improving. Shea Kidd Brown (18:35): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:35): And I was learning a lot through that situation. Shea Kidd Brown (18:37): Right, and probably through the players you were having to sharpen. Kim Lewellen (18:40): Exactly, to sharpen. Shea Kidd Brown (18:40): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (18:41): You know, you’re starting to have to be better at my craft- Shea Kidd Brown (18:43): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:44): … because now I have people asking me questions that are close to knowing more than me, right? Shea Kidd Brown (18:48): (laughs), ri- right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (18:48): (laughs), and, and then you’re like, “Ah, better know, you know.” Shea Kidd Brown (18:48): Uh oh, (laughs), right. Kim Lewellen (18:52): After East Carolina, things had gotten where we had a better grasp about my son- Shea Kidd Brown (18:57): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (18:57): … and Virginia called and again, communities, athletic communities, just like education- Shea Kidd Brown (19:03): So small. Kim Lewellen (19:03): Network, network, network, everybody network- Shea Kidd Brown (19:04): Yes, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (19:05): … because Les Robinson, who I had met at the Citadel, who was Athletic Director- Shea Kidd Brown (19:09): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (19:09): … Terry Holland was at East Carolina, and he had been the Athletic Director of Virginia. Shea Kidd Brown (19:13): Wow. Kim Lewellen (19:13): So, Virginia comes open and he’s like, “I don’t want her to leave, but it’s a great opportunity.” Shea Kidd Brown (19:18): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (19:19): So, they hired me at Virginia. Shea Kidd Brown (19:20): Okay. Kim Lewellen (19:20): So again, it was just networking. Shea Kidd Brown (19:22): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (19:22): I was at Virginia for 12 years, and, and really enjoyed Charlottesville. Shea Kidd Brown (19:25): A good town. Kim Lewellen (19:26): My kids grew up there. My… both sons had great educations. Both very, very different. My youngest son is at Wake now. He’ll be a senior. Shea Kidd Brown (19:38): Oh, yes, what a year, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (19:38): So, (laughs), he’ll be a senior. Shea Kidd Brown (19:38): Wow, I love all those journeys to very different institutions, I would say, all four- Kim Lewellen (19:42): Yeah, ver- mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (19:44): … very different. And I wanna talk about Wake, but I… each thread, before Wake, you talk about family, you talk about the importance of your people. I’m curious, what life lessons from golf- Kim Lewellen (19:56): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (19:57): … and how have you seen the lessons that golf teach, sort of, inform how you live your life? Kim Lewellen (20:02): Yeah, oh yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (20:03): Does that make sense? Yeah. Kim Lewellen (20:04): Yeah, I think it’s a great question, and I think that I am fortunate to have, in my back pocket or my toolbox- Shea Kidd Brown (20:10): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:10): … meaning, when I played golf, I didn’t start off an All American. Shea Kidd Brown (20:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:14): I was actually, probably, out of the five people starters on my team, I was probably, when I started, I was four and five. Shea Kidd Brown (20:22): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:22): But then checking all the boxes, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (20:25): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:25): … thinking through any craft that you have, or whether you’re a mom, or you’re a businesswoman, or you’re a leader, whatever it is, just checking the boxes. Are you the best you can be technically at what you’re doing? Shea Kidd Brown (20:37): Mmh, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:38): Whatever your technique is, whether it’s a computer skill, or if it’s a speaking skill, or whatever, are you the best at that? Shea Kidd Brown (20:43): Right. Kim Lewellen (20:43): Are you preparing the best that you can? Shea Kidd Brown (20:45): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (20:46): Are you in the best physical shape for whatever you’re having to do? Shea Kidd Brown (20:48): Right. Kim Lewellen (20:49): Is your mental sustainability the best that it can be? You know. Shea Kidd Brown (20:52): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (20:52): Just checking all of the boxes that I needed to do in order to be a great golfer- Shea Kidd Brown (20:58): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (20:58): … has transformed into whatever that I’ve had to do. Shea Kidd Brown (21:01): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (21:01): Whether it was coaching, check all those boxes that are similar- Shea Kidd Brown (21:05): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (21:06): … you know, having a checklist of constantly keeping yourself accountable with all of those things I learned from golf. Shea Kidd Brown (21:12): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (21:13): And then in golf, you fail all the time, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (21:16): All the time, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (21:16): You know, I mean- Shea Kidd Brown (21:16): I know. Kim Lewellen (21:17): … there’s 140 players and the odds of you winning, think about it- Shea Kidd Brown (21:21): I know. Kim Lewellen (21:21): … you guys, you’re beat up constantly, and you don’t win. Shea Kidd Brown (21:24): All the time, it’s so humbling, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (21:24): It’s so humbling, (laughs). And so I give- Shea Kidd Brown (21:24): Especially if you’re not good, like me, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (21:30): Right, right? And, uh, (laughs)… Well, so I think that learning how to lose and not to take that as a personal attack, right? You know. Shea Kidd Brown (21:36): Sure, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (21:37): It’s like, “Okay, do what I wanted to do. What do I need to do to get back to where I want to?” Shea Kidd Brown (21:42): Yeah, yeah. Kim Lewellen (21:42): Being able to sustain some difficulties over, and over, and over again. Shea Kidd Brown (21:46): (laughs), [inaudible 00:21:47]. Kim Lewellen (21:47): And get back out there, you know, and one of my favorite bosses, named Jane Miller, when I first started coaching and she said, “Kim…” She goes, “… you gotta get up every single morning and think, ‘Okay, what problem will I solve today?'” Shea Kidd Brown (21:57): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (21:58): And if you go out with the mindset of what problem I’ll solve every day- Shea Kidd Brown (22:02): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (22:02): …. nothing surprises you.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:03): Yeah, that’s good. Kim Lewellen (22:03): And you’re ready to go. Shea Kidd Brown (22:04): Right, right- Kim Lewellen (22:05): And I think golf taught me that. Shea Kidd Brown (22:06): Not a, “I hope nothing happens to me.” (laughs). Kim Lewellen (22:08): No, no, oh gosh, something happened, I just said, “Oh gosh, my whole world’s gone down.” Shea Kidd Brown (22:10): Yeah, right, right, that’s good. Kim Lewellen (22:12): Do you know what I mean? But just be ready for it. Shea Kidd Brown (22:13): Right. Well, in which you described as a practice, I think people may look at you and think, “She’s so great.” Kim Lewellen (22:19): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (22:19): And you are so great, but there is very… you just described very specific practices- Kim Lewellen (22:25): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:25): … that have had to exist- Kim Lewellen (22:26): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:27): … that you, you learned from the sport. Kim Lewellen (22:27): Right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (22:27): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (22:30): And I think another one that, that I love and, and I enjoy talking about this ’cause I don’t really think about it that much until you ask the question. Shea Kidd Brown (22:36): (laughs), yeah. Kim Lewellen (22:36): I’ve gotten this from a book and… but that is when you are feeling like everything’s okay. Like, that moment when everything’s okay in your life, that’s when you need to build your armor up. Shea Kidd Brown (22:45): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (22:45): Right? So you need to make sure you’re as healthy as you can be. Shea Kidd Brown (22:49): Right. Kim Lewellen (22:49): That your mind is clear where it can be. Shea Kidd Brown (22:51): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (22:52): That’s when you do your meditations, or that’s when you go for your walks Shea Kidd Brown (22:55): Right. Kim Lewellen (22:56): At the time when everything’s okay- Shea Kidd Brown (22:57): Okay. Kim Lewellen (22:59): … build your armor for the time when it’s not. Shea Kidd Brown (23:01): Not, year. Kim Lewellen (23:02): So, you’re ready for it. Shea Kidd Brown (23:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (23:04): And I think, um, you know, sport taught me that, I think life taught me that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:07): Yeah, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:08): I think coaching has taught me that. And I think- Shea Kidd Brown (23:09): Right, and the motherhood, your journey with your son. Kim Lewellen (23:11): You know, I… another piece that- Shea Kidd Brown (23:12): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (23:12): … when I’m going in a great spell, build my armor. Shea Kidd Brown (23:15): You’re ready, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:15): You know. Shea Kidd Brown (23:16): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (23:16): For the time that it’s not, so. Shea Kidd Brown (23:18): Yeah, that’s so important because I think the human condition is to coast a little bit when it’s calm, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:22): E- right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (23:23): But not to prepare, and- Kim Lewellen (23:24): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:25): And I think of what you talked about as grounding, like, getting that sense of grounding, whether that comes from faith, or a value system- Kim Lewellen (23:32): Exactly, uh-huh, exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (23:32): …. um, your people, your exercise, your technical skills that you talked about. Kim Lewellen (23:37): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:37): So, that’s good. I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that one, too, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (23:38): (laughs), I like that. Shea Kidd Brown (23:38): It’s rarely calm, but, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (23:41): [inaudible 00:23:41] toolbox, (laughs), yeah, you have a toolbox. Shea Kidd Brown (23:42): Yeah, you do. Kim Lewellen (23:42): You do. Shea Kidd Brown (23:42): You do, yeah. Kim Lewellen (23:42): You do, you do. Shea Kidd Brown (23:45): So you talked about Dianne Dailey several times. Kim Lewellen (23:47): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (23:48): And we, kind of, stopped at the, the Wake experience. Kim Lewellen (23:50): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (23:50): So, let’s talk about that. I wanna know when she became a part of your life because- Kim Lewellen (23:55): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:55): … based on what you’ve talked about, that was early on. Kim Lewellen (23:58): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (23:59): And what was the- entering the Wake experience like? Kim Lewellen (24:02): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (24:02): I’m asking you a bunch of questions all at once. Kim Lewellen (24:04): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (24:05): And what’s it like to follow someone like that? Kim Lewellen (24:08): Yeah, that… right, right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (24:08): Okay. Kim Lewellen (24:09): Well, first of all, like I said, I first met coach Dailey when I was a player at the University of North Carolina, sort of- Shea Kidd Brown (24:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:15): … in the recruiting process for a- [inaudible 00:24:15]. Shea Kidd Brown (24:16): Okay, oh, so that was when y’all met? Kim Lewellen (24:18): Whe- that’s when I first met… Shea Kidd Brown (24:19): Okay, gotcha. Kim Lewellen (24:19): But then when I played at North Carolina, she was coaching at Virginia. Shea Kidd Brown (24:23): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:23): And, uh, my coach and, and her were good friends. Shea Kidd Brown (24:26): Okay. Kim Lewellen (24:26): So, we could see the interaction- Shea Kidd Brown (24:27): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:27): … just knew of her. Golf is very social- Shea Kidd Brown (24:30): Sure. Kim Lewellen (24:30): … and so you do know other coaches. You’re not on two separate parts of the court- Shea Kidd Brown (24:34): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:34): … and you shake hands. And that’s at the end. Shea Kidd Brown (24:36): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (24:36): I mean, you’re almost living with people a lot. Shea Kidd Brown (24:37): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (24:38): And that’s even within the team. So, met her there. And then when life went a different way than coaching, I didn’t know her well at that time in my life. Shea Kidd Brown (24:46): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:46): But then when I started coaching, mostly at East Carolina, not quite at the Citadel yet, that’s when I started really calling her and talking to her. Shea Kidd Brown (24:53): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (24:54): And she was a mentor to me. Shea Kidd Brown (24:54): Okay. Kim Lewellen (24:55): And she’s been a mentor to not only her players, but coaches, and the community, to me. Shea Kidd Brown (24:59): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (24:59): Wake Forest, just unbelievable mentor. Shea Kidd Brown (25:02): Sure. Kim Lewellen (25:02): And still today, she’s on my speed dial- Shea Kidd Brown (25:05): (laughs) Kim Lewellen (25:06): … and she’s on my favorites. Shea Kidd Brown (25:07): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:07): And anytime that I need help- Shea Kidd Brown (25:09): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (25:09): … she’s still the first person I call. I probably need to call her more just to have lunch. Shea Kidd Brown (25:13): (laughs), yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:18): Sorry, Coach, (laughs). Um, oh, and, and it’s usually more- Shea Kidd Brown (25:18): “Hey, I’ve got this thing-” Kim Lewellen (25:18): “Hey, I’ve got this thing that I need help with.” Shea Kidd Brown (25:19): Right. Kim Lewellen (25:19): And I would say, you know, I get this question a lot. How is it to follow her? First of all, it’s always a little scary because, you know, she’s a legend. Shea Kidd Brown (25:26): Sure. Kim Lewellen (25:26): And… but I think more importantly, I, I still don’t feel like I’m following. I still feel like we do this together. Shea Kidd Brown (25:30): Mmh, yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:31): Do you know? And I think ’cause I do use her so much for advice and help, I see her five times a week. Shea Kidd Brown (25:37): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (25:37): I think we still do this together more than me- Shea Kidd Brown (25:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (25:39): … uh, following her, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:40): Yeah, well, and, and that’s special because that’s not usual. Kim Lewellen (25:43): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (25:43): You know, e- it’s, I think a lot of times when you’re succeeding someone, it’s maybe different in the athletics world. Kim Lewellen (25:50): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (25:50): You can tell me this is otherwise, but sometimes you’re just ships passing and you know each other because you’re in the same industry, but you don’t get to really have that relationship with your predecessor. Kim Lewellen (26:00): Yes, yes, yes. And I would think you’re right, as most of the time, unless it’s a retirement situation- Shea Kidd Brown (26:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:05): … like it was with Coach Dailey, I… it can be more organic like it was. Shea Kidd Brown (26:07): Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:08): But I think in some positions, uh, it isn’t as organic. Shea Kidd Brown (26:11): Right. Kim Lewellen (26:12): You know, somebody might have left for another job. Shea Kidd Brown (26:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:14): Or someone might have been let go- Shea Kidd Brown (26:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:15): … or, or something like that. And at that time it can be harder to have that personal relationship. Shea Kidd Brown (26:20): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:20): So, I’m fortunate that in the way that it has since I’ve been here. Shea Kidd Brown (26:23): Yeah. Can you think of, I’d struggle to say best or favorite, but some pieces of advice she’s given you over the years that- Kim Lewellen (26:31): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (26:31): … really you hold on to. Kim Lewellen (26:33): Mm-hmm. I would say nothing like specific advice. Like, she’s not one to give, I’m gonna say it like- Shea Kidd Brown (26:39): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (26:39): … a quote that you’d read out of the book that you’re like, “Oh my gosh I love that, I gotta highlight it.” Right? Shea Kidd Brown (26:43): Right. Kim Lewellen (26:43): She’s more just by example, you know. Shea Kidd Brown (26:46): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (26:46): She always calls student athletes, “students,” – “These are my students. These are my students.” Shea Kidd Brown (26:52): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (26:52): And so that’s something that I catch myself a lot of times wanting to take from her. Shea Kidd Brown (26:55): Yeah, yeah. Kim Lewellen (26:55): Do you know what I mean? That they are student athletes, but they’re just students. Shea Kidd Brown (26:57): They’re just students. Kim Lewellen (26:58): And so- Shea Kidd Brown (26:58): And it helps you to see their humanity, too. Kim Lewellen (27:00): Exactly. You know, ’cause I see a lot of the golf piece. Shea Kidd Brown (27:04): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (27:04): So, I need to realize some of the other pieces. Shea Kidd Brown (27:05): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:06): So things that I just observe and watch, not necessarily her giving advice. But the way that she uses the community of Wake Forest, the way that she would involve the professors- Shea Kidd Brown (27:15): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:16): … and that she would talk about the professors and all of the special pieces of the Wake Forest community that make it so different. Shea Kidd Brown (27:25): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:25): Just how she’s embraced that and used that to help our student athletes- Shea Kidd Brown (27:29): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (27:30): … students as she would call them. So, I think it’s more, um, of a model- Shea Kidd Brown (27:33): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (27:34): … than what she would do by actually saying. Shea Kidd Brown (27:36): Well, aren’t those the best mentors? Kim Lewellen (27:39): They are, (laughs), they are. Shea Kidd Brown (27:39): It’s, it’s, like, even what you described, it sounds like, I’ve called this, “organic mentorship” that I know someone in my field, and I just call them, and I say, “Hey, I’ve got this challenge.” Or, “Will you help me think through this?” Or, “I bombed this today.” And over time, we’ve formed this relationship. I never said, “Hey, will you be my mentor?” (laughs). Kim Lewellen (27:57): Right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (27:57): It just happens, yeah, yeah. Kim Lewellen (27:58): It happens, yeah, uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (27:59): It’s really special. Kim Lewellen (28:00): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (28:00): Oh, and you talk a lot about her, but I see a lot in you, you know- Kim Lewellen (28:04): Aw. Shea Kidd Brown (28:05): … you are such an important figure on our campus. And when I saw you at the Pit, you were hosting a camp- Kim Lewellen (28:11): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (28:11): … you know, sometimes golf can feel hard to break into, exclusive- Kim Lewellen (28:18): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (28:18): … and think camps create this access. So- Kim Lewellen (28:21): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (28:21): … can you talk a little bit about, you know, what’s your approach to helping people break into it, (laughs), who might feel scared Kim Lewellen (28:26): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (28:26): … myself included- Kim Lewellen (28:26): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (28:26): … who might, who might feel scared and what do you share with people, or what do you model- Kim Lewellen (28:33): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (28:33): … um, or try to model as it relates to that? Kim Lewellen (28:35): Uh-huh, we’ve come a long way within our sport. Shea Kidd Brown (28:37): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (28:38): Which I’ve loved to see, especially in women’s sport. Shea Kidd Brown (28:41): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (28:41): You know, you’re noticing now that golf courses are opening up? Right? Shea Kidd Brown (28:45): Yes. Kim Lewellen (28:45): Uh, or when I was growing up, there’d be times that it was an all men’s course, and, uh, women were only allowed at a certain time. Shea Kidd Brown (28:52): Certain times. Kim Lewellen (28:53): And so it’s been nice to see that open up. Uh, so I think that a lot of that, don’t be scared because now things are opened up. Shea Kidd Brown (29:01): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (29:01): And so feel comfortable. E- it’s like anything, if I walked into a leadership conference- Shea Kidd Brown (29:06): (laughs), mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (29:07): … I would be hesitant, “A- am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? Am I…” Shea Kidd Brown (29:10): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (29:11): And so all of that is a learning curve. Shea Kidd Brown (29:13): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (29:14): When you do anything for the first time, or the, for the tenth time even- Shea Kidd Brown (29:18): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (29:18): … there’s such a learning curve. Shea Kidd Brown (29:21): Right, and it’s uncomfortable. I’m like- Kim Lewellen (29:21): It is uncomfortable, yeah, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (29:23): Like, I took golf lessons, (laughs), for the first time last summer. Kim Lewellen (29:25): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): I like to be good at things. Kim Lewellen (29:25): Yeah, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (29:25): And I’m not good at this at all. Kim Lewellen (29:29): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:29): And it’s… you almost wanna just say, nevermind. Kim Lewellen (29:32): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:32): Especially the older you get. Kim Lewellen (29:33): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:33): You know, but to be comfortable with that, Kim Lewellen (29:36): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:36): And, and you, you’ll appreciate this as a coach, like, all those technical things that you need to do with your body. And then it’s relaxed. Kim Lewellen (29:41): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (29:42): And I’m like, (laughs), “How, how in the world am I supposed to relax?” (laughs). Kim Lewellen (29:42): Am I gonna relax? You know, I know, you know. But e- Shea Kidd Brown (29:47): If you can get it, you get the ball just right, like, if you get that- Kim Lewellen (29:50): Yeah, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (29:52): Yeah, yeah… and I think it’s like… if you think of it as any task that you’re learning, yeah, you know, the first time we’re flossing our teeth. Kim Lewellen (29:56): Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s not easy. Do you know what I mean? Shea Kidd Brown (29:58): It might hurt, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (29:58): It’s like, where… I might hurt, am I going deep enough? Shea Kidd Brown (30:00): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (30:01): You know, but now we just do it. Through the practice, it does help. Shea Kidd Brown (30:04): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (30:05): I would challenge anybody to do a camp, do a clinic. If it’s ladies, or men, or juniors, find a clinic where there’s more than just one- Shea Kidd Brown (30:12): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (30:13): … ’cause that’s fun. And then meeting people that are in the same boat and is just as uncomfortable as you are. Shea Kidd Brown (30:17): Sure. Kim Lewellen (30:17): Figure out a way to practice swinging a golf club outside your backyard as part of your workout, or- Shea Kidd Brown (30:24): Yeah, ’cause it’s necessary. Kim Lewellen (30:24): ‘Cause it’s hard, you know, that’s golf. Shea Kidd Brown (30:24): My husband says, “You know, I got to go practice.” You know. Kim Lewellen (30:26): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (30:27): But it’s true. Kim Lewellen (30:28): Really. Shea Kidd Brown (30:28): Having learned at least some basics, I recognize go a whole year, you haven’t swing a club- Kim Lewellen (30:33): And you don’t want… no. Shea Kidd Brown (30:33): … you know, it’s like starting over. Kim Lewellen (30:34): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (30:35): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (30:35): So, it’s like anything, if… you gotta do a little bit each day so you can figure out how to do it, [inaudible 00:30:39]. Shea Kidd Brown (30:40): Yeah, (laughs), that’s true. Wow. Kim Lewellen (30:40): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (30:40): Well, maybe I’ll, uh, come see, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (30:42): ‘Cause see… yeah, I’d love that. And you’re welcome anytime. Shea Kidd Brown (30:48): Yeah, I need to do it. Kim Lewellen (30:48): I would love that, and your husband, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (30:48): Okay, I will tell him. You know, so as we start to bring our conversation to a close, I am curious just about the Wake experience. Kim Lewellen (30:54): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (30:54): Well, if you’ve had such success here- Kim Lewellen (30:56): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (30:57): … and I think you’ve created a lot of interest in the sport- Kim Lewellen (31:01): Uh-huh, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (31:02): … because of your success. So, what inspires you here? What makes this experience so special? Kim Lewellen (31:09): Uh-huh. As we all, when somebody says Wake Forest University, they say community, right? Shea Kidd Brown (31:14): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:15): They say the community of people. We’re an intimate community. We’re not a dime a dozen. Shea Kidd Brown (31:20): No. Kim Lewellen (31:21): I noticed that day one being here, the welcoming that I had. Shea Kidd Brown (31:25): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:25): Anyone was willing to help me. Everybody wanting to come and get to know me. Shea Kidd Brown (31:29): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:30): And that was different. Shea Kidd Brown (31:30): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (31:31): You know, I mean, I’ve been other places and it’s taken a few years to walk into somewhere and there’s like, “Hey, Coach, how you doing?” Shea Kidd Brown (31:37): (laughs). Kim Lewellen (31:37): Or, I’m a two days in here- Shea Kidd Brown (31:40): Wow, (laughs), wow. Kim Lewellen (31:41): … and, “Hey Coach, how are you doing? You know. And I think any time that you have that many people that are supporting you, that many people that are interested in what you’re doing. Shea Kidd Brown (31:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:48): They end up being your people. Shea Kidd Brown (31:49): Sure. Kim Lewellen (31:50): And you don’t wanna let your people down. Shea Kidd Brown (31:55): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (31:55): You know, and so I think that the people around me and the community here at Wake Forest, and they’re the ones that I get up every morning, and that’s my student athletes included. Shea Kidd Brown (32:01): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (32:02): It’s students, as Coach would say. I don’t wanna let them down. Shea Kidd Brown (32:05): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (32:06): And so, uh, you know, you get up every morning and say, “What can I do to help the community better because they’ve been so good to me.” Shea Kidd Brown (32:10): Yeah, one of my colleagues, who’s at the University of Maryland, talks about knowing and being known. Kim Lewellen (32:15): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:15): And it’s really what you just said, like, to be in a new place, and people don’t realize, when you’re new, it feels the same, like, regardless of what position you’re in- Kim Lewellen (32:23): (laughs) Shea Kidd Brown (32:24): … ’cause you don’t know where the grocery store is.

Kim Lewellen (32:25): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:26): The basic aspects, and your… Wake Forest has a huge legacy of… around golf, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (32:32): Right, right, right. Shea Kidd Brown (32:32): You know, with, with Arnold Palmer. Kim Lewellen (32:32): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (32:33): And a big statue. Kim Lewellen (32:34): Yeah, (laughs), exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (32:34): You, you know, a, a lot, and that resonates with me in terms of you care about this place. Kim Lewellen (32:39): Right. Shea Kidd Brown (32:40): And you want it to be successful, you’re now a part of it. I don’t know about for you, for me, Pro Humanitate is just through and through. Kim Lewellen (32:47): Yes. Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (32:47): So, how have you seen that play out- Kim Lewellen (32:49): Uh-huh. Shea Kidd Brown (32:49): … in, in terms of who we are? And, I guess, what does it mean to you, too, is maybe a follow-up. Kim Lewellen (32:54): Mm-hmm. Uh, what does it mean to me? I mean, I would say every, every time that you wake up, you know- Shea Kidd Brown (32:57): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (32:57): … you’re wanting to better and be a help to the person in front of you. Shea Kidd Brown (33:02): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (33:02): You wanna help them reach their goals. You wanna do it where their environment that is helpful, not harmful. And think that hopefully, I can do that, but I know that the professors, a student walks into their classroom, and they can look in their face, and they can actually see if they’re having a good day or a bad day. Shea Kidd Brown (33:19): Mmh, yeah. Kim Lewellen (33:19): … or this person’s really good at this. Shea Kidd Brown (33:21): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (33:21): I’ve heard this so many times from one of my players, “Professor said I was really good at this, and I should pursue this in this way.” Shea Kidd Brown (33:27): Wow, and that’s powerful, when you hear that. Kim Lewellen (33:27): And that’s powerful from a professor or someone like that. Shea Kidd Brown (33:31): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (33:32): I think that this community just allows that to happen. Shea Kidd Brown (33:36): Mm-hmm, it’s special, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (33:37): Yeah. I, I hope you do. You’ve been here now. Shea Kidd Brown (33:39): Oh, I do. Two and a half. It is. You know, as you say, we’ve both been on multiple campuses. Kim Lewellen (33:42): Uh, uh, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:43): I’m sure all those campuses would say they’re a community, but there’s something special, and I really do think it’s Pro Humanitate where I care about the person. I care about you, sitting across the table from you- Kim Lewellen (33:52): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (33:53): … and want to cultivate a relationship with you and not for a transactional reason, but- Kim Lewellen (33:57): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (33:57): … just for humanity, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (33:59): Exactly. Shea Kidd Brown (34:00): I can’t say that every place is like that. Kim Lewellen (34:02): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:02): So it’s really special. So let’s talk about the season. Kim Lewellen (34:05): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:05): What are you excited about as we think about this upcoming academic year- Kim Lewellen (34:09): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:09): … your upcoming season? Kim Lewellen (34:10): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (34:11): We have three new members of our conference, and I know you’ve played a lot of out of conference play in the past- Kim Lewellen (34:14): Uh-huh, mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (34:14): … but what are you looking forward to? Kim Lewellen (34:15): I have an interesting year. I actually have a lot. This will be the most turnover I’ve had since we’ve been here. The most new faces we’ve had, percentage wise, since we’ve been here. Shea Kidd Brown (34:29): Wow. Kim Lewellen (34:30): Add that with Stanford, Cal. Shea Kidd Brown (34:30): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (34:33): And SMU, and, and then last year, Stanford, 1SAAs were ranked number one, and we were ranked number two. Shea Kidd Brown (34:38): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (34:39): So, you know, they’re always right buttoned up against me, right? (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (34:41): (laughs), right, right. Kim Lewellen (34:42): So I’m like, “Yeah.” Shea Kidd Brown (34:42): Ma- makes me real uncomfortable, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (34:45): I know, I feel like… But saying that, I love the challenge of that. Shea Kidd Brown (34:48): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (34:48): A- and even talking about to my background, we have a lot of new faces and some that I, I look forward to cultivating them and I’m gonna have to do it a little quicker. Shea Kidd Brown (34:57): Mmh. Kim Lewellen (34:58): Usually, I have a little bit more time, but I have a, like, a, a young lady who’s a senior that came in to help me in a situation. We had a, a young lady turn pro that was unexpected. Shea Kidd Brown (35:08): Okay. Kim Lewellen (35:08): And so she has come in. Uh, usually, I take the time. I’ve got to develop a relationship with you. Shea Kidd Brown (35:13): Right, right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (35:13): I’ve got to figure you out. Shea Kidd Brown (35:15): Right. Kim Lewellen (35:15): I said, “I don’t have the time to do a relationship as well.” Shea Kidd Brown (35:18): Yeah, we’re gonna do it as well go, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (35:19): Yeah, yeah, right, we’re all in- Shea Kidd Brown (35:19): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (35:19): … you just gotta trust me, you know. Shea Kidd Brown (35:20): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (35:21): And so the challenges of, I’ve got to get a, a lot of new faces- Shea Kidd Brown (35:26): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (35:27): … as a group of different individuals from different backgrounds- Shea Kidd Brown (35:29): Right, right. Kim Lewellen (35:29): … international, from small towns, from big towns- Shea Kidd Brown (35:32): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (35:33): … to work together for the common goal. And so I have to do that a little bit quicker- Shea Kidd Brown (35:36): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (35:37): … than I’ve had to do in the past ’cause we have so many new ones. Shea Kidd Brown (35:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (35:39): And so I, I look forward to that challenge. Shea Kidd Brown (35:42): Right. What you said, “What’s gonna challenge me today? What, what problem can I solve?” Kim Lewellen (35:46): And this is gonna do it. I think I’m gonna enjoy that. It’ll be similar to… not in reference to the talent levels, a lot better, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (35:51): (laughs). Kim Lewellen (35:51): But to the Citadel where you have a, a challenge of- Shea Kidd Brown (35:54): Right. Kim Lewellen (35:54): … I’ve got to get some folks better. Shea Kidd Brown (35:57): Right. Kim Lewellen (35:57): Because- Shea Kidd Brown (35:57): Now when do you start? When does the season officially start? Kim Lewellen (36:00): Right, so we start August 26th. Shea Kidd Brown (36:01): Wow. Kim Lewellen (36:02): So, first day of class. But then I- Shea Kidd Brown (36:04): It feels like year round. Kim Lewellen (36:05): I know. Shea Kidd Brown (36:05): It’s wild. Kim Lewellen (36:05): We’re a year, we’re a year round sport. Shea Kidd Brown (36:07): Wild, yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:07): We are a year round sport. Shea Kidd Brown (36:08): Yeah. So do you ever get… I know I just interrupted the, (laughs)- Kim Lewellen (36:11): See, yeah, no. Shea Kidd Brown (36:11): … telling me about the season, but when is that downtime though? Kim Lewellen (36:14): So, we really don’t have downtime in, in golf. Shea Kidd Brown (36:16): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:17): It’s a year round sport. And then when we’re not, we’re recruiting. Shea Kidd Brown (36:20): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:21): But saying that it’s from a coach’s standpoint- Shea Kidd Brown (36:24): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:24): … it’s different, which is, sort of, nice. So, it may not be downtime, but a different team that I had last year, that I’ve had the year before. Shea Kidd Brown (36:31): Right. Kim Lewellen (36:31): Here’s my challenges. I’m excited to help these young players get better quicker. Shea Kidd Brown (36:36): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:36): Then, they’ll go home to their family, and then I’ll do a little bit of recruiting. So, it’s a little bit of a different- Shea Kidd Brown (36:41): Uh-uh, different pace. Kim Lewellen (36:43): … genu- different pace. Shea Kidd Brown (36:43): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:43): And in January, I do continued education stuff before they come back. Shea Kidd Brown (36:47): Okay. Kim Lewellen (36:47): Then I’m all in on that again. Shea Kidd Brown (36:48): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (36:49): Then it’s recruiting, you know, so- Shea Kidd Brown (36:50): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (36:51): Things are different. Shea Kidd Brown (36:52): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (36:52): Which is, sort of, keeps it interesting, I guess, you could say. Shea Kidd Brown (36:55): Totally. Kim Lewellen (36:56): I will say, our conference championship, now that’s way in the spring. Shea Kidd Brown (36:59): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (37:00): It’s in April, but it is local. It’s at Sedgefield. Shea Kidd Brown (37:01): Oh. Kim Lewellen (37:01): So, so anybody can get out to watch our conference championship. Shea Kidd Brown (37:06): That’s exciting, yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:07): And that’s exciting to do that. Shea Kidd Brown (37:08): Yeah, that is exciting. And- Kim Lewellen (37:08): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (37:09): So, what’s the first? Kim Lewellen (37:10): We go to tournaments where there’s, uh, anywhere from 14 to 16 teams. Shea Kidd Brown (37:14): Different schools, mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (37:15): And that way we can just hit a lot of head-to-heads really quickly. Shea Kidd Brown (37:18): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:19): So our first one will be the Annika, which is in Minnesota. It’ll be the strongest field of the fall that we’ll see. Shea Kidd Brown (37:24): Okay. Kim Lewellen (37:25): So, it’ll be a good test right out of the gate. Shea Kidd Brown (37:27): And is Minnesota challenging climate-wise this time of year? Kim Lewellen (37:30): This time of year, it’s not. It is different grasses. Shea Kidd Brown (37:33): Right, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (37:33): They’re winter grasses, so grass is a little bit thicker. Shea Kidd Brown (37:36): Mm-hmm. Kim Lewellen (37:36): The chipping is a little bit thicker. But saying that will prepare -em for that. Shea Kidd Brown (37:39): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:40): But it’s a little bit different ’cause as soon as that one’s over, we get back to the southern grasses. Shea Kidd Brown (37:44): Right, different terrain. Kim Lewellen (37:45): Which is different terrain. Shea Kidd Brown (37:45): Yeah. Kim Lewellen (37:46): And so just different skill sets that have to be practiced and, and things like that. Shea Kidd Brown (37:50): Wow, I’m very excited. Kim Lewellen (37:51): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (37:52): I look forward to following the team. Hopefully, I can see them in action. Kim Lewellen (37:55): Yes. Shea Kidd Brown (37:56): Hopefully, we can hit some- Kim Lewellen (37:56): I- Shea Kidd Brown (37:57): I can watch you hit some balls, (laughs). Kim Lewellen (37:58): (laughs), no, you need to come hit some balls. Shea Kidd Brown (38:01): You can- Kim Lewellen (38:01): All right. All right, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:02): Okay, okay, it’s a deal. Just know that I like to be good at things, (laughs), and so- Kim Lewellen (38:04): Okay, okay, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:06): I’ll be pre- prepared to be humbled by that. Kim Lewellen (38:08): Oh. Shea Kidd Brown (38:09): But I’m so appreciative of- Kim Lewellen (38:10): Mm-hmm. Shea Kidd Brown (38:11): … this opportunity to connect and hear more about your story, Kim Lewellen (38:14): Yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (38:15): … and just… so glad that you’re on our campus, and so- Kim Lewellen (38:18): Yeah, well, thank you. I’ve enjoyed being here. And, uh, everyone enjoys seeing you around campus. Shea Kidd Brown (38:21): (laughs), oh, thank you. Kim Lewellen (38:22): So we appreciate you, Doctor, (laughs). Shea Kidd Brown (38:25): Thank you, well, the feeling is mutual. Kim Lewellen (38:26): Oh, yeah. Shea Kidd Brown (38:27): All right, thank you. Shea Kidd Brown (38:29): Such a good conversation with Coach Lewellen. I feel like I could talk to her all day. You know, so much of what we know about a coach is measured by commentary about wins and losses. But I feel so much gratitude that we were able to unpack Coach Lewellen’s story, when she began golfing, how she defines home. It’s where your people are. I just love that. (38:51): And even tidbits about motherhood and being a spouse. And, I of course, loved hearing about Coach Dailey’s influence and their unique relationship. I hope you feel as enriched as I do. Coach Lewellen is a real person. I “Kidd” you not. Thank you for listening, and I hope you’ll consider your unique story and the surprising connections we can all make to our shared humanity. (39:15): You have something to contribute to the world, and I hope you’ll keep leaning into the hard work and the heart work. MaryAnna Bailey (39:22): For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey and this was Kidd You Not.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:05):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea, and this is Kidd You Not. And I am so excited to introduce you to today’s guest. Now, I know I say that often, because I’m really fortunate that I get to meet a lot of people. A Wake Forest alumna, Deb Marke graduated with a bachelor of science degree in health and exercise science, with double minors in psychology and women, gender, and sexuality studies. She’s currently pursuing a master’s degree in social work at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Before returning to Wake Forest, Deb served as the Program Coordinator for Leadership and Activism in the Women’s Center at the University of Cincinnati, where she was named Outstanding New Professional. She currently serves as Associate Director for Democratic Engagement and Justice Programs in the Office of Civic and Community Engagement, and she is actively leading the Deacs Decide initiative alongside an amazing group of students. She’s also the creative mind behind Deacon Dialogues, an initiative on campus this fall.

(01:04):

This past year, among many things, Deb was awarded with the MLK Building the Dream award, and our campus is so fortunate to have Deb. I am excited about this conversation. 

How you doing?

Deb Marke (01:19):

I’m good. I am a little nervous, not gonna lie.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:20):

That is normal.

Deb Marke (01:21):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:21):

It’s completely normal. I’m nervous, too. So, even though I get to talk to you and interview you, I want it to go well. So, thank you for saying that right away. We are both in the same camp. You know, think of it as a conversation, because that’s all it is.

Deb Marke (01:34):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:35):

So, thanks for agreeing to say yes even if you were like, “Ah.” (laughs)

Deb Marke (01:40):

I’m really excited. And I was very honored, so thanks.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:44):

Oh, good. Yeah. So, I’m also honored that you said yes. You’re such an important person on our campus and add such value to the student experience. It’s good for our campus to know all of the personalities that make it what it is, so I appreciate you saying yes. So, we’re gonna just chat. I love to start with the same question. I think it’s just grounding; you know me. Home is this grounding concept. Not physical structure, but the meaning of it. So, I like to start there and see where it takes us. So, where’s home for you?

Deb Marke (02:13):

I have homes across-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:17):

Hm, yeah.

Deb Marke (02:17):

… the world, literally.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:17):

Okay.

Deb Marke (02:20):

I think of home and I think of eating cassava leaves with my parents.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:23):

Hm.

Deb Marke (02:23):

I think of home as just being with my partner and my cats.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:29):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (02:29):

Reading a really good book.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (02:31):

Is where I find home. And I have friends that are more like family.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (02:35):

And wherever I am with them, I really enjoy being around people that I don’t feel the need to be perfect around.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:43):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (02:43):

Like I can show up in most like raw, rough draft form.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:46):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (02:47):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

I love that.

Deb Marke (02:47):

And they are like, “I’ve got you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (02:49):

That’s beautiful. Cassava leaves.

Deb Marke (02:51):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:52):

Say more. (laughs)

Deb Marke (02:53):

So, my parents and my family are from Sierra Leone, and so I’m a first generation American.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Wow.

Deb Marke (02:59):

And my favorite meal ever is cassava leaves.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (03:03):

It’s kind of like spinach almost.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:04):

Hm, okay.

Deb Marke (03:05):

But a little bit like grittier.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:08):

Okay.

Deb Marke (03:08):

But it’s really good and you like stew it in like tomatoes and peppers …

Shea Kidd Brown (03:11):

Hm.

Deb Marke (03:11):

… and onions all blended together.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:13):

Okay. And is it like a slow cooking process?

Deb Marke (03:16):

It is.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:16):

Okay.

Deb Marke (03:16):

You know, I try to make it at home-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Right, not the same.

Deb Marke (03:17):

It’s like not quite the same. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:20):

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I wish you all could see her face. It’s like this face means home. It’s happy, and it’s comfort. And I’m glad you explained what it is, ’cause I was thinking more bigger leaves, like almost like cabbage or kale, so I’ve never heard of that. So, I’ll have to look it up.

Deb Marke (03:34):

West African.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:35):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (03:36):

Just truly a staple. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:37):

Okay, good to know. And are your parents in the U.S., or are they still there?

Deb Marke (03:41):

They are here in the US.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:42):

Okay.

Deb Marke (03:43):

My parents are in Georgia.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Okay, okay.

Deb Marke (03:44):

That’s where I grew up.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:45):

So, you have to travel to Georgia to get your cassava leaves.

Deb Marke (03:48):

Yeah, my mom never fails to remind me.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:50):

Yeah. (laughs) That’s like her, probably a secret weapon of, “We want to see you, and we’ll cook for you.”

Deb Marke (03:55):

Oh, 100%.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:56):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (03:57):

And then she always knows, she has the Tupperware waiting.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Oh.

Deb Marke (04:00):

And I always bring a cooler.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

I love it.

Deb Marke (04:02):

And she pretends that she doesn’t make extra, but she definitely does.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:04):

Right, of course she does.

Deb Marke (04:05):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

I relate to that very much. I’m from south Mississippi, as you know, and my dad was the primary cook in our family. So, I don’t get home as often as I want to, but when I do, there’s all kinds of Southern comfort food, seafood. That’s making me hungry.

Deb Marke (04:22):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (04:22):

Um, so I love how you describe home as not really a place as a, a feeling and the people around you, and that’s really beautiful. As I think about that, too, you talked about your parents. Do you have siblings, extended family that are part of that-

Deb Marke (04:37):

Yeah, I have-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:38):

… unit?

Deb Marke (04:39):

… a brother.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:39):

Okay.

Deb Marke (04:40):

He’s the baby.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:40):

Okay.

Deb Marke (04:41):

And I have a sister who’s in the middle. I’m the oldest.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:44):

Hm.

Deb Marke (04:44):

And I’ve been told my-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:45):

Birth order is so interesting to me.

Deb Marke (04:47):

Mm-hmm. I’ve been told I give older sister energy.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:49):

Okay. (laughs)

Deb Marke (04:49):

There’s a … that tracks. But we’re all three years apart. So, between me and my brother, just three years. He was born September 12th, I was born September 10th, my mom is September 19th, so lots of Virgo energy.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Yes, absolutely.

Deb Marke (05:03):

In our family. Love my siblings.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:04):

I always wanted to get away from Georgia.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:07):

It just wasn’t for me. I was like, “I just want to experience life.”

Shea Kidd Brown (05:09):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (05:10):

And so I left. And I grew up with my mom and my dad, and my grandmother came and lived with us.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:16):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:17):

She moved here probably when I was in like seventh grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:20):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:21):

And she ended up getting her citizenship.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:23):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:23):

And she just had such a big impact on my life and truly just changed the way that like, I understand loss and grief in a different way.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:33):

Like a loss for this disconnect that we have. Like her upbringing and the way that she-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:38):

Okay.

Deb Marke (05:38):

… lived was just so different-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Right.

Deb Marke (05:40):

… than the way that I grew up and lived. And also to have another caretaker in the home.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:43):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (05:44):

And then when I was in high school she got really sick, and flipping that, becoming a caregiver.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:48):

Yeah, right, for someone you’re accustomed to …

Deb Marke (05:52):

That was really difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:53):

Hm.

Deb Marke (05:53):

And so she has left such a last- lasting impact on me.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:57):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (05:57):

And she passed away in 2019.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:00):

Hm, I’m sorry.

Deb Marke (06:00):

But I feel so connected to her. She was a social worker.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:03):

Oh, really?

Deb Marke (06:03):

Um, and I didn’t even know that-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

Oh, my gosh.

Deb Marke (06:06):

… until I got into the program.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (06:08):

And my mom was like, “Did you know that this is what your grandmother did?”

Shea Kidd Brown (06:10):

Wow.

Deb Marke (06:11):

So I just hold that really closely.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:12):

Yeah, that is really special.

Deb Marke (06:14):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:14):

And it’s one of those nature-nurture things, that you grew up literally worlds apart, came back together, and then to make that connection later in life, that’s really special. Grandmothers are special. If you’re lucky enough to have them with you, I lost my grandmother a year and a half ago, and just the wisdom and the perspective they have because they’ve lived so much life. And, and then I think it’s also a gift when you recognize that, because not everybody does.

Deb Marke (06:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:41):

So, to be able to recognize how special they are, and my grandmother was really active in the Civil Rights Movement, and so that’s why, and it was in my dissertation, uh, work in my PhD that I really started to get it. She was always special to me, but my lived experience pointed me to these conversations around inclusion and belonging and systems, and all that came from her. You’ve heard the story, but given her life working for justice and inclusion and belonging and those sorts of things, it just naturally was part of the conversation. And I caught onto it, so I love that she passed that along not even knowing it.

Deb Marke (07:20):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (07:20):

So, I want to talk about social work certainly. Just a little bit more about your childhood. So, you are this light. You have so much energy, you bring so much energy to every space you’re in. So was that little Deb? Like were you always like that?

Deb Marke (07:35):

I think that like I was really shy.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (07:37):

Like I’m actually a really shy and introverted person.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:39):

Really?

Deb Marke (07:40):

Which is like really hard for people to believe.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:42):

Yes, it is.

Deb Marke (07:44):

(laughs) But I also really like to help.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:46):

Hm.

Deb Marke (07:46):

And so even when I was younger, I was like, “Oh, my brother’s crying, let me get, I got this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (07:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (07:51):

“I’m helping. Here we are.” And so I think that’s kind of always been a little bit of like a strength of mine.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (07:56):

Is just being able to like, even when I’m really scared, to just be comfortable enough to like jump in.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

Hm.

Deb Marke (08:01):

And so I think that’s kind of been it. And personally, my mantra is that like we all have a lot going on. Sometimes people are going through things that like you really couldn’t even imagine, or you can’t just see from the surface.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:13):

Sure.

Deb Marke (08:13):

And so just trying my very best to just meet everyone with like curiosity, support-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:18):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (08:18):

… and kindness-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:19):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (08:19):

… I think can just really change a lot. And so I just try to come from that place.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:24):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (08:24):

And like remembering that like we don’t all have it figured out, and sometimes people come and they’re really upset.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:30):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (08:30):

And maybe they’re not upset with me, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:32):

Right.

Deb Marke (08:32):

… what happened was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:34):

Yeah, that’s right. That’s so true.

Deb Marke (08:36):

So, just reminder that being a human is hard-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:37):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (08:37):

… and we’re just all trying our best.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:39):

Being a human is hard. You are so right, you are so right. And I hear a lot of empathy and grace in that answer, and I will say yes, surprising that you are an introvert. I would say too though, but because of your answer it seems like when you are in your passion or when you’re connected to helping, that’s what brings you alive.

Deb Marke (08:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

And I think that’s a really important lesson for all of us, because sometimes how we get our energy is based on comfort. And uh, your interests, like we talked about your grandmother, but the helping, was that always a part of what you wanted to be when you grew up, kind of thing?

Deb Marke (09:11):

Yeah. So, I grew up always wanting to be a doctor.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:13):

Okay.

Deb Marke (09:14):

Like, that is what I was like, “I’m gonna be a doctor.”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:16):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:16):

I went to a high school and a magnet program that was focused on medical sciences and research.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:22):

Hm.

Deb Marke (09:22):

Like I did volunteer and internship experiences at hospitals. I was pre-med when I came to Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:28):

Uh-huh.

Deb Marke (09:28):

And stayed pre-med the whole time. So I graduated with a degree, health and exercise science.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:33):

And then minors in psychology and women and gender and sexuality studies.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:37):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:38):

And it was when I took my first W&GS class that I realized that like, “Oh, I really like this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (09:44):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:44):

Like it’s making me think-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (09:45):

… and ask questions. All of my classes gave me such a unique perspective on how it’s not just about being able to like help people in that moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (09:55):

It’s like, how can we shift structures and policies-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:58):

Sure.

Deb Marke (09:58):

… and systems and the way that we think about community to like deter bad health outcomes.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:03):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (10:04):

Like what can we do to be a more preventative culture?

Shea Kidd Brown (10:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (10:06):

And I realized that that’s what I was interested in, and doctors don’t really get to do a lot of that.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:10):

That’s right.

Deb Marke (10:11):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:11):

That’s right. And we’re not socialized to talk about those kinds of things. So I know when we grow up it’s like, “Doctor, engineer, nurse,” you know, it’s very concrete, and the liberal arts education really introduces you to these bigger concepts and discovering the root causes of things. And there’s certainly a place, and it’s really important to have physicians, but going back to your passion and what makes you tick, it was really about that aha moment.

Deb Marke (10:37):

I recognize how lucky I am to be able to have that experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (10:42):

Because it was such a turning point for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:44):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (10:45):

If I had just not taken the class, or like didn’t really have to take it-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:48):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (10:49):

… I probably would have been like just chugging along-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (10:51):

… going to med school.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:51):

Keeping that plan.

Deb Marke (10:52):

But I’m really happy with my life, and like I just feel like I’m right where I’m supposed to be.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:58):

Yeah. So how did you decide upon Wake?

Deb Marke (11:00):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:00):

I’m sure you had a lot of options, especially being in a magnet school and things like that.

Deb Marke (11:04):

So, Wake was really interesting. I didn’t visit a single school. I applied to a bunch of different schools, and I only applied to schools in Georgia that I knew would not give me any money.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:16):

Really?

Deb Marke (11:16):

So I could leave. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (11:19):

Are you serious?

Deb Marke (11:20):

Yeah. And surprise, surprise, they didn’t give me any money.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:23):

Oh.

Deb Marke (11:23):

I got in. And so it was between like Wake Forest and Syracuse, and …

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

That’s a, a bit of a spectrum. (laughs)

Deb Marke (11:31):

It was really just kind of, I don’t know what I’m gonna do, but these are the two that I’m feeling kind of drawn to.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (11:37):

And I went to an event at someone’s house, and they had Hattie Mukombe, who used to be the Director of Admissions.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:45):

Hm.

Deb Marke (11:45):

She was the nicest person I had ever met in my entire life.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:49):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (11:50):

And she talked to every single one of us individually.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:53):

Hm.

Deb Marke (11:53):

Talked to our families, engaged with alumni-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:56):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (11:56):

… and like we just got to hear all these different stories. This was amazing.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (12:00):

But what really sold me is that afterwards she sent all of us a handwritten, little note-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:05):

Hm.

Deb Marke (12:05):

… telling us like, if we chose to go there, that we belonged there.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:08):

Wow.

Deb Marke (12:09):

And I was like, “Even though I’ve never been to this place, I need to go.”

Shea Kidd Brown (12:13):

Yeah, that gives me chills. We talk a lot about the relationships that are built, and that was in a deeply intimate, relational way. But Deb, so you said something as you were talking about your college choice. I love Wake Forest, I love this moment that we’re having. But you said, “I only applied to places that would not give me money.” So, what does that mean? Was that because they weren’t then committed to you, so you didn’t have to be committed to them? Or …

Deb Marke (12:37):

Yeah. And my parents, I’m their, the first child for them-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (12:42):

… to go to college, and my mom was just horrified at the fact that I was applying to like the University of Oregon, UCLA.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Right.

Deb Marke (12:50):

The University of Washington.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:50):

All over the place.

Deb Marke (12:52):

And she was like, “Why are you trying to leave?” I grew up in a smaller town.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:55):

Hm.

Deb Marke (12:55):

Everyone knows everyone.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:56):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (12:56):

And I found that to be so suffocating.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:59):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:00):

And I just really wanted to get away.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:02):

Every school that was kind of close, within three hours of driving distance from my parents, I was like …

Shea Kidd Brown (13:06):

It was a no.

Deb Marke (13:10):

It was a no for me. So, I was like, “Here are the schools that like I’m applying to-“

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:12):

“… because I know they will make you happy.”

Shea Kidd Brown (13:14):

Okay.

Deb Marke (13:15):

And …

Shea Kidd Brown (13:15):

“And there’s a whole world out there, including Oregon and Syracuse, that I’m gonna look at, too.”

Deb Marke (13:20):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that will make me happy. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (13:21):

Yes, yeah. It sounds like from that start of the person that you mentioned made a really big impact on you. Well, I’m glad Hattie, you know, closed the deal.

Deb Marke (13:31):

Like my whole first year I kept in contact with her.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:34):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (13:34):

And then I got to host like students who were coming to visit.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:39):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (13:39):

And just like getting them to like, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:39):

So, you got to pay it forward in that way.

Deb Marke (13:40):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

So, let’s talk about Wake Forest. You were a student, critical periods. I feel like that’s always the case, but I’d love to hear about what was most salient for you as a student.

Deb Marke (13:54):

I was here in 2012.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (13:54):

So, I was here for the reelection of President Obama.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:56):

Okay.

Deb Marke (13:57):

Which I feel like was really big.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:59):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (13:59):

And that was the first election that I got to vote in.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:01):

Okay.

Deb Marke (14:01):

So I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is-“

Shea Kidd Brown (14:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:04):

“… the time.”

Deb Marke (14:04):

“Like, I get to cast a ballot.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:05):

And you were a first year?

Deb Marke (14:06):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:06):

When you got to vote? Okay.

Deb Marke (14:08):

And so that was, like, pretty incredible for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:09):

And my time at Wake was just really interesting. I had never been so far away from home, and I started off growing up in Atlanta.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:19):

And so, I went to a school that was bilingual, and most of the kids were Black and brown.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:24):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:25):

And then when I was in third grade, we moved to Kennesaw.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:29):

Okay.

Deb Marke (14:29):

And so I went from being around people who look like me-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Right.

Deb Marke (14:32):

… to being, like, one of 10 Black kids-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:34):

Sure.

Deb Marke (14:35):

… in the entire school and two of the other people were my siblings. And so that was a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Wow.

Deb Marke (14:40):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (14:40):

Wow. (laughs)

Deb Marke (14:41):

Uh, and coming to Wake kind of felt a little bit similar.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:44):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:44):

I was like, “Oh, this is really different.” But I also felt a little bit on the outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:49):

Okay.

Deb Marke (14:50):

So, I was like, “I’m gonna just figure it out for myself.”

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

Sure.

Deb Marke (14:52):

Like, and figure out what belonging means for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:55):

I was really involved with the Women’s Center.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (14:57):

The Women’s Center started my sophomore year.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:00):

Okay.

Deb Marke (15:00):

And I was their first student worker.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:04):

Oh my gosh!

Deb Marke (15:04):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (15:04):

Um… (laughs)

Deb Marke (15:04):

And I just really poured myself into that space.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:06):

And they poured into me and-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:09):

Was that right around the time, too, that you were taking the class? Did those-

Deb Marke (15:12):

It was.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:13):

Okay.

Deb Marke (15:13):

Yeah, because the director, she was just trying to get in front of students-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:15):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:16):

… and she’s like, “Oh yeah, we’re gonna have this event.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:18):

Mm.

Deb Marke (15:19):

And I was like, “Oh.” And she went to all the residence halls and she came to mine and no one was there, and I felt bad.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:23):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (15:24):

So, I was like, “Oh, let me stop by.”

Shea Kidd Brown (15:24):

Because you’re a helper. (laughs)

Deb Marke (15:30):

(laughs) Yeah. And so worked in Campus Rec. I was a student supervisor in the gym and I- was an intramural ref.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:34):

And I volunteered, and so I had, like, all these really different pockets-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:38):

Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:39):

… of friends and, like, places that I could engage. And I did a lot of student activism when I was-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:42):

Okay.

Deb Marke (15:44):

… on campus, and it really helped me to find my voice.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:47):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:47):

And you don’t always have to agree with people.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:50):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (15:50):

Like, it’s okay to have conflict-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Right.

Deb Marke (15:52):

… and it’s okay to have dissonance.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:54):

And also, it’s like, how can we work together-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (15:57):

… to get to this goal even if we have different ideas-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:00):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (16:00):

… of what it looks like to get there.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:01):

Right.

Deb Marke (16:02):

And that has really served me a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:04):

I bet.

Deb Marke (16:04):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:06):

(laughs) And all of that, too, is still connected to what you were talking about with your class, like, systems and structures and barriers to inclusion. And you were very involved in the OCCE, too.

Deb Marke (16:17):

Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:18):

Now, was it called that at the time?

Deb Marke (16:20):

It was not.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:20):

Okay.

Deb Marke (16:20):

It was called the Pro Humanitate Institute.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

Okay, that’s right.

Deb Marke (16:23):

And so I did a lot of the programs that were focused more around, like, gender-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:28):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:28):

… and, like, talking about girlhood-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:29):

Mm.

Deb Marke (16:29):

… and what that means and what that looks like. I went on an alternative break trip. Um-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:35):

Mm, where did you go?

Deb Marke (16:35):

I went to Asheville.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:36):

Okay. Nice.

Deb Marke (16:36):

And it was the first time I’d ever been there-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:38):

… and we were staying in a hostel called-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:40):

You… (laughs)

Deb Marke (16:40):

… Sweet Peas. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:40):

You were like, “What is this?” (laughs)

Deb Marke (16:43):

(laughs) And I was like, “Oh, this is a lot.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:45):

Mm.

Deb Marke (16:45):

But I learned so much-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

Mm.

Deb Marke (16:47):

… about advocacy and also just sort of, like, the landscape of North Carolina-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:52):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:52):

… because every part of North Carolina just has such rich history-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:57):

Sure.

Deb Marke (16:57):

… and different traditions-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (16:58):

… and cultures. Like, are so embedded.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (17:01):

But then it’s also like, we are only, like, two hours away, so… (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

I was just about to say, and you leave 20 miles, and it could be totally different. But I even think about the shape (laughs) of our state, and there’s so many nooks, and it’s almost emblematic of those various traditions and cultures and experiences.

Deb Marke (17:17):

Maybe you have those experiences like someone who’s, like, from more of, like, the deep South.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (17:22):

But it’s so different. It feels so different-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:24):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (17:25):

… in North Carolina than-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:26):

It does.

Deb Marke (17:26):

… it does in Georgia. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:27):

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally.

Deb Marke (17:28):

And it was kind of jarring, ’cause I’m like, “Oh, this is, like, all the South.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:32):

Mm.

Deb Marke (17:32):

Like, I’m like, “I love the South.”

Shea Kidd Brown (17:33):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (17:33):

“The South is for me.” And so when I came to North Carolina, I said, “Oh-“

Shea Kidd Brown (17:36):

This…

Deb Marke (17:37):

“… I’m a little shocked.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:38):

(laughs) It’s a little different. Well, y- and when you think about, there are parts of North Carolina that are an hour and a half from Virginia.

Deb Marke (17:43):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:43):

And I s- sometimes have to image search the map (laughs) because I’m confused.

Deb Marke (17:48):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:49):

You know, ’cause we’re four hours from the beach, five hours from D.C. It’s just-

Deb Marke (17:52):

It, like, doesn’t really make sense. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (17:54):

It doesn’t. It doesn’t at all, going back to the shape. So, you were involved in everything. So you progress through swimmingly, graduate, and then you decide medical school’s not it. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:04):

I was like, “I can’t do this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:05):

Okay.

Deb Marke (18:06):

(laughs) I’m not interested.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:07):

Well, you probably could but it’s-

Deb Marke (18:08):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:09):

… it was, your passion wasn’t there.

Deb Marke (18:10):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:10):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (18:12):

I was like, “I’m gonna do something different.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:13):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:13):

And so I ended up doing a year of service through AmeriCorps-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:16):

Mm.

Deb Marke (18:16):

… here in Winston, and I was at Experiment in Self-Reliance, and they gave me just, like, a lot of autonomy-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:22):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (18:22):

… and agency to kind of just do-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:24):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:24):

… and, like, experience. So I was overseeing a grant, I got to go and do programming in communities. I was doing, like, qualitative, like, interviewing-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:32):

Wow.

Deb Marke (18:32):

… and it was so much fun-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:35):

… and I loved it, but it was also my first introduction to social work, and I was just like, “Oh, I don’t know if I could do that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:39):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:40):

Because there’s so many barriers.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

Sure.

Deb Marke (18:42):

There was to be a way to, like, help people think about this before they are the person who are making decisions-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (18:49):

… and not thinking about these things. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:50):

Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Marke (18:52):

And so I went to one of my mentors and I was like, “Hey, like, I think I wanna work, like, in higher ed. How do you do that?”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:57):

Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (18:58):

And (laughs) she was like, “Amazing.”

Shea Kidd Brown (18:59):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (18:59):

“Here are a bunch of jobs that you can apply for.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:01):

Every person like me is like, “Yes!” (laughs)

Deb Marke (19:05):

(laughs) And she helped me… Paige Meltzer, she was the first director of the Women’s Center.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:08):

Okay.

Deb Marke (19:08):

And she helped me through the entire process. Like, read over my cover letters.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:13):

Wow.

Deb Marke (19:13):

I ended up getting an interview at the University of Cincinnati in their Women’s Center-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:17):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (19:18):

… and went and loved it-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:20):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (19:20):

… and ended up taking the position there. And I was the Program Coordinator for Activism and Leadership. And it was so different than Wake Forest.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:29):

I bet.

Deb Marke (19:29):

Over 48, 000 students.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:31):

Wow.

Deb Marke (19:32):

Two satellite campuses.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

Wow.

Deb Marke (19:33):

Students either graduate in three years or seven years.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:36):

Right.

Deb Marke (19:37):

I didn’t know anyone in Cincinnati.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (19:39):

I just packed everything up in my-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:40):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (19:40):

… Toyota Camry and just, like, drove there. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:40):

That’s, that’s a trend that I’m s-… A thread (laughs) of your story.

Deb Marke (19:41):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (19:43):

“I don’t know anything, but I’m gonna spread my wings.”

Deb Marke (19:49):

Yeah, I was like, “We’re gonna vibe.” I just told myself, “I can do anything for a year.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:53):

Mm.

Deb Marke (19:53):

“And if I really don’t like it after a year, I can start looking. I can make a change.”

Shea Kidd Brown (19:58):

Right.

Deb Marke (19:59):

Like, and I loved it. It was really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:01):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:02):

And it was really hard to be somewhere new. It was really hard to be a young professional-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (20:06):

… and figuring out who I am-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:08):

… who I want to be-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Right.

Deb Marke (20:09):

… and I learned so much about myself and about my own resilience-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:13):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (20:14):

… and grit, and also just kind of the kind of leader that I wanna be.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:17):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:18):

I realized that I wanna be the leader that isn’t scared of other people shining.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:23):

Mm.

Deb Marke (20:23):

Like, I wanna support other people-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (20:25):

… and their wholeness, and I want to celebrate them, and I want them to shine just as brightly-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

I love that.

Deb Marke (20:30):

… ’cause that doesn’t take away from me.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:31):

Yeah. I love that. Like, I feel like we could go on a whole thread-

Deb Marke (20:34):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (20:35):

… because leadership, we tend to think of it in this very power, public-oriented way, and that kind of leadership that you just described, I think about the analogy of a, or a metaphor of a pebble and the ripple effect, so you have this ability to let other people shine, see what their strengths are, and what you just said, I can’t say it better. Like, that doesn’t take away from you. More light actually p- just provides more light. It doesn’t dim you, so, such a great nugget there. So, you loved it, it was really hard. Were there specific things in addition to you learning yourself and res- resilience and grit, those things, um, about the work itself that was hard? Or was it just where you were in your sort of stage of life?

Deb Marke (21:17):

(laughs) I think that doing gender work on campuses, it can be really difficult.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:23):

Mm.

Deb Marke (21:23):

You know, sometimes there’s some traditions and ideas that are really, really steeped in.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (21:28):

And it’s really difficult when you’re, like, 24-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:30):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (21:31):

… and they’re like, “You need to go talk to the engineering department-“

Shea Kidd Brown (21:32):

Yeah. (laughs)

Deb Marke (21:33):

“… around how they can support women.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:35):

Yeah. (laughs)

Deb Marke (21:35):

“Because we just noticed that a lot of women are leaving the department.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:38):

Right. “Can you fix that for us?” (laughs)

Deb Marke (21:39):

(laughs) Yeah. And I’m just like, “I don’t really know if just a workshop is gonna be able to solve that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (21:42):

Right. Right.

Deb Marke (21:43):

And so just trying to figure out, what are the ways that I can utilize my personal sphere of influence-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (21:49):

… to sort of, like, challenge some of these, but also thinking about, maybe it doesn’t always mean that it needs to come from me.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

Mm.

Deb Marke (21:57):

Sometimes it-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (21:57):

… definitely does, but what is the impact?

Shea Kidd Brown (22:00):

Sure.

Deb Marke (22:01):

So, I worked with a student who had this idea of doing, like, photo stories of women in STEM.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:06):

And, like, interviewed a bunch of women who were planning to go into STEM or were in it and, like, what their career paths look like, their fears, their challenges, their excitement, and then we combined it into, like, this huge-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:19):

Mm.

Deb Marke (22:19):

… video-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:19):

Wow.

Deb Marke (22:19):

… and presented on it.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:21):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:21):

And it was like, for some people, that was the thing that actually shifted.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

Mm.

Deb Marke (22:24):

It was like, “Oh, like, we have people who actually really deeply care about this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:29):

Right.

Deb Marke (22:29):

“And the people who are shining stars here are also struggling.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:33):

Mm.

Deb Marke (22:33):

“So, that means that, like, maybe there are things that we can do to support them-“

Shea Kidd Brown (22:36):

Sure.

Deb Marke (22:37):

“… in a different way.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:37):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (22:38):

And then that’s when I can come in and say like, “So, how are we thinking about, like, policies?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:42):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:42):

“How are you thinking about even classroom culture?”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:44):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (22:44):

“Um, what are, like, the things that we’re saying and not saying?” And I found that to be not only helpful for me but also for our students.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (22:51):

To-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:52):

And it gave ’em a voice.

Deb Marke (22:53):

Yeah. They felt really empowered.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:55):

And it was like, “I got to share my story, and I feel heard.”

Shea Kidd Brown (22:59):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (22:59):

“And I don’t know what this is gonna yield. I may never experience it.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:03):

Sure.

Deb Marke (23:03):

And that’s the hard part about social change work.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Right. And the hard part about leadership. The most beautiful story of leadership is what happens after you leave somewhere, you know?

Deb Marke (23:11):

Yeah. But it was really powerful. So just figuring out… But sometimes it can be a little bit hard. I was like, “This is just not how I-“

Shea Kidd Brown (23:17):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (23:17):

“… want it to be.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:18):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (23:18):

And building that resilience to say like, “This is hard, and I can do hard things.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:23):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (23:23):

“And we can all do hard things.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:25):

Right. And it doesn’t last forever. Things being the same level of hard every day is just not the way life is. Sometimes I have to say to myself, “Okay, it’s not gonna always be this way.”

Deb Marke (23:33):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (23:33):

During COVID, I was at the University of Tennessee and I would say, “It is not gonna always be this way, and we can do hard things.” (laughs) That was sort of how I ended everything and almost five years later, here we are. So, at what point did you decide, it’s time for a shift, or time to do something different?

Deb Marke (23:47):

I was in a space where I was the only person left in my center. (laughs) I was… And I was like, “I am gonna ask a really bold question.”

Shea Kidd Brown (23:57):

Mm.

Deb Marke (23:57):

I was like, “I know that there is some open positions. Like, I am really interested in this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:03):

Like, “I would love to step into this because I know that, like, we need some form of leadership-“

Shea Kidd Brown (24:06):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:07):

“… in this space.” And I was basically told, like, “We’re gonna wait and, like, hire a director and then let them decide what they wanna do with their team.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Mm.

Deb Marke (24:14):

And I was like, “That’s fair. And that’s not fair for me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:18):

Mm. (laughs)

Deb Marke (24:18):

(laughs) I understand the decision.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:20):

Sure.

Deb Marke (24:20):

And it’s not really what I wanted-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:22):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:22):

… so I was applying for jobs within Cincinnati, and I saw the job at Wake-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:28):

… and I was like, “Mm, I don’t know.” I didn’t actually apply.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (24:31):

I was like, “Whatever, it’s fine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:32):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (24:33):

One of my friends who works here was like, “Hey, you need to apply for this job.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

Mm.

Deb Marke (24:37):

And I was like, “I don’t really think I’m qualified.” And she’s like, “No. You don’t get to determine that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:41):

Ooh. (laughs)

Deb Marke (24:42):

“Let the search committee determine that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:42):

That’s, that’s good advice.

Deb Marke (24:42):

(laughs) It was.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:46):

That’s really good advice. ‘Cause how many times do we count ourselves out before we even start?

Deb Marke (24:48):

A lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:49):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (24:50):

And so I was like, “Okay.” I applied and didn’t really hear anything, and then I got a phone interview, and I was like, “Okay, sure.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:55):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (24:56):

And then they invited me on campus, and I was just like, “Oh.”

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (24:59):

“Um, this just feels really real. I guess maybe they’re actually considering me.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

“Maybe they like me.”

Deb Marke (25:02):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:02):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (25:05):

And I came and it was really great. Marianne, who is my supervisor now-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:08):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (25:09):

… interviewed me, and I just remember at the very end of my interview, she was like, “I just want you to know that there is an MSW program here, like, a master’s in social work-“

Shea Kidd Brown (25:19):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (25:19):

“… at Chapel Hill. They have a part-time program that meets here in Forsyth County.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:22):

Okay.

Deb Marke (25:23):

And then she was like, “If you were to get this position, like, I just think that this would be such a good program for you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:29):

Mm.

Deb Marke (25:29):

“Like, something that you should definitely consider.” And I was like, “Yeah, I don’t really know about getting my master’s.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:32):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (25:33):

“We’ll just have to see.” And then I got offered the position, and I almost said no. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (25:38):

Are you serious?

Deb Marke (25:39):

Because my partner was in Ohio.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:41):

Okay.

Deb Marke (25:42):

I had built, like, this life-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:43):

Sure.

Deb Marke (25:44):

… and I was just like, “This is uprooting.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:46):

Right.

Deb Marke (25:47):

Like, am I ready to move again and-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:49):

Right, and start again.

Deb Marke (25:50):

Yeah. And my partner was like, “This is, like, an opportunity that doesn’t come around very often.”

Shea Kidd Brown (25:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (25:55):

“And you should just do whatever it is that you think you need to do-“

Shea Kidd Brown (26:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (26:00):

“… and we’re gonna figure it out.” Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:02):

It’s great to have a partner who is supportive. Yeah.

Deb Marke (26:04):

I know-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Here you go.

Deb Marke (26:05):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:05):

I think of this, the literature sometimes talks about sponsorship, so the first person who said, “You need to apply.” ‘Cause you might not have applied. (laughs)

Deb Marke (26:11):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:12):

And then you had someone who said, “You need to apply for grad school.” And then you had someone who said, “We’re doing this-“

Deb Marke (26:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:17):

“… even if it’s hard.” So, tell me about your circle. Like, who are your mentors and what have you learned from having people around you who do encourage you to do something maybe that you didn’t think you could do? That may be putting words in your mouth-

Deb Marke (26:32):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (26:32):

… but just what I’m reflecting back.

Deb Marke (26:34):

It feels really good, like you are seen.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (26:39):

And I have a lot of different mentors in my life, and sometimes it comes from friends-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:45):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (26:46):

… who I also see as mentors.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:48):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (26:48):

Honestly, it comes from our students.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:50):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (26:50):

Like, I learn so much from our students and being in a space of, like, “Hey, we are co-learning and growing together.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:57):

(laughs) Right.

Deb Marke (26:58):

And particularly in this era of my life-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:02):

… I think Marianne has been such a rockstar.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:06):

And, like, she has been, like, one of my number one supporters.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:09):

She was a reference for me for grad school. She was the one that was like, “We are going to make this work.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:15):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (27:16):

She’s like, “When you get in.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:16):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:17):

‘Cause she was like, “It’s not an if-“

Shea Kidd Brown (27:18):

Not if.

Deb Marke (27:18):

“… it’s just, like, when.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:19):

Right.

Deb Marke (27:19):

She was like, “We’re gonna figure it out. I’m gonna meet you where you’re at and we’re gonna make this happen.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:27):

And I was like, “Okay.” Um… (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:27):

“We can do this.”

Deb Marke (27:27):

“We can do it.” And she has just been incredible.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:29):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:29):

And I’ve learned so much. When I was at the University of Cincinnati, it did not have, like, the best office culture-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:35):

… and so it has been really healing-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:37):

Mm.

Deb Marke (27:37):

… to be able to have someone who’s like, “I trust you.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:40):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:40):

“You’ve got this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:40):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:42):

And I can come to her with questions, and I don’t feel afraid. I know she’s gonna actually listen-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:47):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (27:47):

… and it’s not gonna be, like, a condescending or-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:49):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (27:49):

… “I told you so.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:50):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:51):

It’s just going to be like, “What do you need from me?”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:53):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (27:53):

“How can we move forward? How can we fix this?” Or, “No, you’re actually on the right path.”

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

Mm.

Deb Marke (27:57):

Like, “Just keep going.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (27:57):

And helping you think through, just being a sounding board and…

Deb Marke (28:00):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:01):

… recent conversation you and I had was about the next academic step, but just-

Deb Marke (28:05):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:05):

… being able to have, really, a person who feels safe in talking through all of those things in life. And, you know, it sounds like you’ve also had to have people who quiet, you know, that inner voice that’s like, “Uh, am I ready for this? Can I do this?” And having a voice that’s like, “You absolutely can.” Or, “Here’s how we can do it,” or, “How can I help?”

Deb Marke (28:22):

And, all of my friends that I have right now, we all lived on the same freshman hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Are you serious (laughs)?

Deb Marke (28:27):

So, we all lived-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

What hall?

Deb Marke (28:27):

… in Babcock.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Okay.

Deb Marke (28:27):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Nice.

Deb Marke (28:27):

Babcock 2A.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:27):

Babcock.

Deb Marke (28:33):

( laughs) Uh, we are all friends. Everyone’s starting to get married, so we’ve been in-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:35):

… a million weddings.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:36):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (28:36):

We have a little group chat, and every time any of us are feeling-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:40):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:40):

… a little… I send a little voice memo-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:41):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (28:41):

… and I’m like, “Hey, here’s what’s going on. Here’s what I’m thinking.” And it’s like, either, “Hey, you were in the wrong-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:47):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:47):

… “and [inaudible 00:28:48]-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:47):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:48):

… “you need to, like, repair harm.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:50):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (28:51):

Or, like, “Hey, why are you talking about yourself like that?”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:53):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (28:53):

“You’re my friend, and-“

Shea Kidd Brown (28:54):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (28:54):

… “we don’t talk about each other like that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (28:56):

Right. That’s right.

Deb Marke (28:56):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Yeah. It’s so good to have a group that you can check in on. One of the things I talk to first years about is just saying the things out loud, giving it light, because it takes the power away, especially if it’s negative self-talk, to be able to say, “This is where I’m naming.” (laughs) Like, “This is where I am,” and I have those people in my life too, I call my personal board of directors, but-

Deb Marke (29:16):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:17):

You know, the people who are like, “Yeah, you’re right,” or the people who are like, “Um, we might not, wanna take a few steps back. Let’s talk about this,” or-

Deb Marke (29:24):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (29:24):

… “Hey, let’s get on the phone.” It’s just a great testament that none of us get through this life by ourselves, that we need people, and it’s really important. And you’ve, you’ve been a great resource to, to students. It’s really fun to hear you talk about, “These are the things I did as a undergrad,” and I believe Miriam was here as an undergrad-

Deb Marke (29:41):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:41):

… too, and then now to be in a space where you’re creating those opportunities and those mentorship relationships, and I love that you included students and mentors. ‘Cause a lot of times, we think of it only as this person we’re aspiring to be, but I do agree that my best teachers are students. So, how special is it that you now get to be a part of their journey and their experience? So, what are some of the things that give you life? (laughs) You know-

Deb Marke (30:06):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:07):

… as you come to work every day and help to create a student experience that you had?

Deb Marke (30:11):

I really like… All the programming I do is obviously, like, super fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:16):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:16):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (30:16):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (30:17):

But sometimes it’s the little moments.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:19):

I’d only been here for a few weeks, and one of the students came into my office and was just like, “Hi. I’m really interested in Deacs Decide, and-“

Shea Kidd Brown (30:29):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (30:30):

… ” I really just wanna help and just-“

Shea Kidd Brown (30:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:32):

… “do whatever.” And I was like, “That’s wonderful. I don’t really know anything about Deacs Decide-“

Shea Kidd Brown (30:38):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (30:38):

… “right now,” ’cause I [inaudible 00:30:38]-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:38):

“I just got here.” (laughs).

Deb Marke (30:39):

I’d been here for maybe two weeks.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Yeah (laughs).

Deb Marke (30:41):

But, I’m really excited, and that moment, just, I was like, “But what are you excited about?”

Shea Kidd Brown (30:45):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:45):

Like, “Why does this matter?” And just hearing what he cared about-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:49):

… and then to see him graduate, and is now working at, like, a political communications-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (30:55):

… nonprofit, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:56):

Wow.

Deb Marke (30:56):

… pulling on all those experiences-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:57):

Right.

Deb Marke (30:58):

… that he got from Deacs Decide. Like, those are kind of the moments-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:01):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (31:02):

… and it’s like, I love that we got all these students registered to vote.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:05):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:06):

And, like, we did the programming. We went to the polls. And, it’s also those little moments of, like, seeing someone come into their own, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:13):

Right.

Deb Marke (31:13):

… finding the thing that they are really excited-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:15):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:15):

… about, and, like, are able to just kind of like find that thread and start-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:19):

Right.

Deb Marke (31:19):

… like, pulling it.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:20):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Well-

Deb Marke (31:21):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (31:22):

… because you mentioned it, I do wanna-

Deb Marke (31:23):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (31:23):

… talk about Deacs Decide (laughs). It’s a big year-

Deb Marke (31:26):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (31:26):

… and as I’ve learned from you, it’s the presidential election, yes, but also some other things, so what are you most excited about as you think about the march to November?

Deb Marke (31:35):

So, I know that people are probably really tired of living through unprecedented times-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:39):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (31:40):

… but what unprecedented times.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:43):

Yeah (laughs).

Deb Marke (31:44):

(laughs) Such a historical moment.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:46):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:47):

And I think that we are really at a time in our politic as, like, a country-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:52):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:52):

… of deciding, “What does democracy mean?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:55):

And, “What does it mean to have a voice?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (31:58):

And, “Is this the voice that we want to have?”

Shea Kidd Brown (31:59):

Right.

Deb Marke (32:00):

And so I think that, like, we all… kind of grappling with, like, what does this mean, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:04):

… what does this look like, and how do we move forward, in a time where we are just experiencing such deep polarization.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:11):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:11):

And that it feels like everything is just, like, on the precipice, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:14):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:14):

… like, very high stakes.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:16):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:16):

And that’s a really difficult space to be in.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:18):

Sure.

Deb Marke (32:18):

And so, while that doesn’t make me super excited-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:20):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (32:21):

… it brings me a little bit of anxiety (laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (32:22):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:23):

But, I think the part that makes it feel exciting is knowing that for a lot of young people, particularly people on our campus, this is gonna be the first presidential election that they get to vote in,-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:36):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:37):

… and that’s so different.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:38):

Sure.

Deb Marke (32:38):

Like, it’s a different experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:39):

Right.

Deb Marke (32:39):

… and we know-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:39):

And-

Deb Marke (32:41):

… that if you vote when you’re younger, you’re more likely to be a lifelong voter.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:44):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (32:44):

But, there’s also just so much happening in North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:47):

(laughs) Yeah.

Deb Marke (32:48):

We have a really interesting governor’s race happening, because Governor Cooper has met his term limits, and so he is done. And so we have Josh Stein and Mark Robinson, who are really kind of neck-and-neck right now-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:01):

… and so it’s really interesting. The general assembly has completely shifted, and all of their seats are up, and so we are gonna see how it works out-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:09):

Sure.

Deb Marke (33:10):

… because the case around like our maps have completely changed, and they went to the Supreme Court, and they were like, “It’s not Constitutional,” and then, they went back and said, “It’s Constitutional,”-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:20):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (33:20):

… and so (laughs) there’s just a lot of different pieces, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:23):

A lot of back and forth.

Deb Marke (33:24):

… here in Winston and Forsyth County, I’m a big proponent of local elections.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:28):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:28):

I love local government.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:31):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:31):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (33:31):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (33:31):

There are a lot of ways for folks, everyday people, to be able to be involved in shaping how we define and think about our community.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:37):

Sure.

Deb Marke (33:38):

But we have so many city council seats that are being contested for the first time in like 20 years.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:43):

Wow.

Deb Marke (33:43):

The county commissioners, who make all, a lot of decisions around, like, our money and budget, particularly around, like, roads and schools-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:51):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:51):

… and housing (laughs) in particular.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:52):

Sure.

Deb Marke (33:53):

One of the things I hear a lot of students say is that, like, “I just don’t see people who look like me, or like-“

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (33:59):

… “are around the same age, like, who are running, and, like, sharing my thoughts and opinions,” and it’s like, I hear that, and sometimes, that means some of us need to be willing-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:08):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:09):

… and ready to run.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:09):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (34:09):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (34:10):

That’s so true, because there is this relevance issue. I think the disconnect, sometimes, with young voters is they see all of these people in the spotlight that don’t reflect their ideals, and then they’re just become apathetic-

Deb Marke (34:22):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

… to that. But it’s a great paradigm shift to say, “Okay, so why don’t you get in the arena and be a part of it?”

Deb Marke (34:28):

Yeah. And also, regardless of who ends up in office, that person still represents you.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:33):

Sure.

Deb Marke (34:33):

So, if they aren’t speaking to things that you think are really important, then how are we leveraging, like, our skills to either call, or-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:42):

… write letters-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:42):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:43):

… to go to meetings, to attend rallies, whatever it may be, and thinking about how are we building coalitions-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:49):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (34:49):

… to be able to, like, make sure that people are hearing, like, our issues, and-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:53):

Right.

Deb Marke (34:53):

… how are we articulating that? Because it’s one thing to say, like, “Hey, we need more bike lanes.”

Shea Kidd Brown (34:58):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (34:58):

Which, like, yeah, we actually really do.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:00):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (35:01):

And it’s a big safety issue. But if I go to the city council meeting, and I’m talking about, like, Peters Creek Parkway-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:07):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (35:07):

… unfortunately, they’re gonna be like, “We don’t oversee that.”

Shea Kidd Brown (35:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:10):

So, knowing who holds power-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:11):

Right.

Deb Marke (35:12):

… what questions to ask, and where you need to go is, like, also this part of the political process that we just don’t really talk about.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:18):

Yeah. Yeah. So, you are so knowledgeable-

Deb Marke (35:20):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (35:20):

… about all these things, (laughs) and you mentioned you were a first-year student when you got to participate, so-

Deb Marke (35:26):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (35:26):

… when did you become so engaged in the discussion, both, I would guess, personally and professionally?

Deb Marke (35:33):

I think personally, growing up in a household where you are supporting your parents in becoming citizens.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:40):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:40):

Like, my parents became citizens when I was in, like, fourth grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:43):

Wow.

Deb Marke (35:43):

And so, watching that process was really interesting,-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:46):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:47):

… and my parents vote in every election.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:49):

(laughs) Because it-

Deb Marke (35:50):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (35:50):

… means so much, you know? It wasn’t guaranteed for them.

Deb Marke (35:54):

They brought us to every single-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (35:55):

… ele- We talk a lot about politics in our house-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:02):

… and we’re not always in agreeance, so we’re just kind of like, I love to hear other people’s perspectives. Coming here, realizing that is not the norm-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:07):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (36:07):

… was a little bit like, “What-“

Shea Kidd Brown (36:08):

What? (laughs).

Deb Marke (36:12):

(laughs) I think part for me that, like, it all feels interconnected, is that in order to be able to create a space where people can share, and share something that maybe, like, they’re in disagreement, or, like, whatever that may be, it’s all about creating a space that people can practice vulnerability-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:26):

… and people can practice building trust.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:28):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:29):

It’s really hard to, like, talk about things that are really complex and really challenging when there isn’t any trust-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:34):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:35):

… and there isn’t a place where you can be vulnerable-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:37):

Right.

Deb Marke (36:37):

… where you can be wrong, or you can be right, or people aren’t gonna try and, like, shift your opinion.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:43):

Right, or just, “I’m not knowledgeable,” to be a-

Deb Marke (36:45):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:45):

The vulnerability to say, “I don’t know.”

Deb Marke (36:48):

And I think creating those spaces feels really important to me-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:51):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (36:52):

… and I think that at the crux of any good work around polit- politics or social action is really creating a space where people feel empowered-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:01):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (37:02):

… and that their voices are heard.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Yeah, and that’s so much of what your work is around Deacs Decide, and I know it, it’s an initiative that in many ways, is student-oriented, student-run, but it takes leadership to help them-

Deb Marke (37:12):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (37:12):

… to empower them, to develop. It’s really impressive. I would encourage everyone to check out the Deacs Decide website on our Wake Forest website, but the question that I’m really grappling with is, you know, you had this, these models, so it was really embedded in your childhood, you know, and that was just a natural thing for you. For those who are, for whatever reason, just not interested… ‘Cause apathy is just, like, sort of flat, I think (laughs). You know, some people are just anti. Like, “As a young person, I can’t make a difference.” So, how do you get them to lean in to the conversation and to engage?

Deb Marke (37:46):

One thing that I have found to be really helpful is really thinking about something that feels really real. I do this workshop where we talk about how we construct communities-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:55):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (37:55):

… and then, thinking about, like, Wake Forest as a community, and when we think about Wake Forest as a community, sometimes people say like, “Oh, like, Wake Forest is a bubble,” like, X, Y, and Z. I’m like, “Yeah, and how does that make you feel?”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:07):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:08):

And they’re like, “Well, sometimes it makes me feel really sad,” or there’s some people who are like, “I know that’s not really true because I go off campus.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:14):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:14):

Like, “I volunteer at all these places.” And I’m like, so when we think about Wake Forest, it’s about the culture, right?

Shea Kidd Brown (38:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:20):

And the culture is created by the people who work here-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:23):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:24):

… and the people that also go to school here-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:26):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (38:26):

… and the people that also live here.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:27):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:28):

So we are all responsible-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:30):

Sure.

Deb Marke (38:30):

… for this culture. So, if there are things that we want to see shift and change, that’s actually within the realm-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:35):

… of our sphere of influence-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:37):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:38):

… to shift and change. And sometimes, it’s even smaller, of like thinking about your student organization.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:42):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:42):

Like, if you wanna see your student org be more inclusive, or have more people with different perspectives, how are you reaching out to folks?

Shea Kidd Brown (38:50):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (38:50):

How do people know, outside of just the Involvement Fair-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:53):

Right.

Deb Marke (38:53):

… or maybe just talking to your, only your friends? How can we be a little bit more creative-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:59):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (38:59):

… and also, how do we lean into taking risk?

Shea Kidd Brown (39:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (39:02):

Knowing that sometimes, like, we have to be okay with failing, ’cause sometimes, we have to be willing to fail, and we also have to-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:09):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (39:09):

… be willing to also, like, succeed, and sometimes, that can be a little bit scarier, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:14):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I, tongue-in-cheek, say, “We don’t like to fail,” but this is a community, professionals and students alike are drawn to it for that reason, and so it feels risky. It feels vulnerable to say, “I’m gonna try this, and I don’t know if it’s gonna work out,” but then the beauty of the learning that happens, and generally speaking, failure doesn’t happen. It may be an outcome that you are surprised by (laughs).

Deb Marke (39:36):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (39:36):

I’ll say, “Oh, that’s so fascinating.” (laughs) Um-

Deb Marke (39:38):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (39:39):

“What can I learn?” You know? “How can I go back?” And so I do think that is really important for people. Think about, as a first-year student, “What can I do with my roommate? How can I become educated if there’s something that I don’t understand?” And this is a lesson I learned later in life, but from the political frame, I tend to really read about people that I don’t know about, or people that I think I disagree with, because that humanizing factor is also really important, and we see a lot of dehumanization, particularly in political elections on all sides, and when you start to say someone’s name (laughs) and their children’s name as opposed to position, you have to think about that a little bit differently. And I think that’s part of your work, too.

Deb Marke (40:23):

We’re in such an interesting time. Social media, for better or for worse-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (40:27):

… has made access to information so easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:30):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (40:31):

… not always the most accurate-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:32):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:32):

(laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:33):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:33):

… information, and also has made it really interesting for us to feel emboldened to sometimes say or do things online-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:40):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (40:40):

… that we actually wouldn’t do in-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:42):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:43):

… person, and so, oftentimes, it can be really easy to flash our values-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:46):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (40:47):

… but I’m always really curious around, like, how are you living them?

Shea Kidd Brown (40:50):

Sure.

Deb Marke (40:51):

I should just know if-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:52):

Right.

Deb Marke (40:52):

… someone says-

Shea Kidd Brown (40:52):

(laughs).

Deb Marke (40:53):

I hope that if someone thinks of me and they think about the values that I hold, things around, like, I really believe in community.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:00):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:00):

I really believe in care. Like, I believe in, like, autonomy-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:04):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:04):

… and agency. Like, I hope that those things come through-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:06):

Right.

Deb Marke (41:07):

… like my actions, the programs that I put on, my words versus [inaudible 00:41:10]-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:10):

You saying them.

Deb Marke (41:11):

Yeah, or-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:11):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:12):

… the things I post on my story.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:13):

Right.

Deb Marke (41:13):

And so I think it’s like how do we take some of the pieces that social media has made easy-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:19):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:19):

… and, like, how do we translate them back into the real world-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:22):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (41:22):

… where we feel like we can maybe wear that shirt or-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:26):

Mm-hmm (laughs).

Deb Marke (41:26):

… whatever, but also, if someone were to come up to me and say like, “Hey, I really wanna learn more about why elections, like, matter.”

Shea Kidd Brown (41:32):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:32):

That, I can have that conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:34):

Right.

Deb Marke (41:34):

… with that person, and come from a place of, like, curiosity-

Shea Kidd Brown (41:37):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (41:37):

… rather than, like, being immediately ready to, like, shut down.

Shea Kidd Brown (41:40):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (41:40):

(laughs).

Shea Kidd Brown (41:41):

That’s the world, and you are absolutely right. I think elections have taken a turn since the early 2000s, with the advent of (laughs) you know, all of the things, and it is much easier to troll (laughs) and to comment, as opposed to saying, “Hey, Deb. When you said (laughs) X, I’m really curious about that,” or, you know, an example that I gave recently, a friend that I’ve been connected to for a long, long time on social media, posted something that I was really like, “I don’t think that’s true.” You know? (laughs) And instead of commenting, and now I didn’t call that person, we don’t have a, a relationship like that, but I did send a message to them. Just said, “Hey, I just wanted you to be aware, like, I’m not writing to debate. Hope you and your family are well. I just wanted to send you this fact check link, ’cause this is a neutral site that really can go through all the points that you made and I just wanted to make sure you were aware that’s where I tend to get my information.” So, because I’ve heard you to also talk about literacy, just on the web in general, I think, is a good principle, regardless if it’s politics or something else. Like, something shouldn’t be true just because you saw it online. (laughs)

(42:46):

And that contagion that sometimes happens, you know, it’s the copy paste, and the thing that happens is really challenging to… You can’t see us, but we’re both linked in to this conversation. I think that’s a lost art. And something that you’ve created this year is Deacon Dialogues, to really create some of those spaces to just be vulnerable, to fail, if we don’t want to use that word, in a space where there’s grace, and there’s facilitators. And so will you talk a little bit about Deacon Dialogues, and what you hope to achieve?

Deb Marke (43:15):

Yeah. So Deacon Dialogue is really a place where people can come together and be in dialogue with one another, and really knowing that, like, you don’t always have to walk into a conversation ready to defend yourself.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:27):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (43:28):

It takes a lot of practice to actively listen and listening to people to truly understand versus just respond.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:35):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (43:36):

I think the biggest skills, is [inaudible 00:43:38] Deacon Dialogue.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:38):

A huge skill, yeah.

Deb Marke (43:39):

And we have low hanging fruit from like, “Let’s Talks”, where we are just talking about, like a particular topic and hearing from other people, their perspectives, of like, how they grew up, how they were socialized, like, what are they really grappling with? And then we also have Deliberative Dialogues, which are more policy based-

Shea Kidd Brown (43:57):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (43:57):

… but I personally love them.

Shea Kidd Brown (43:58):

Mm-hmm. Of course you do. (laughs)

Deb Marke (44:01):

You’re taking these really big ideas and looking at all the different opinions that are out there, but like, at the end of the day, we have to talk about the pros. We have to talk about the cons.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:11):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:12):

And then, if we have the power, what are we deciding?

Shea Kidd Brown (44:15):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:16):

And we have to work together to build consensus-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:18):

Okay.

Deb Marke (44:19):

… to, like, move forward-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:20):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (44:20):

… with that policy. And that, I think, is just building consensus, is just such a difficult-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:26):

Yes, it is. (laughs)

Deb Marke (44:27):

… (laughs) skill. Um, and so practicing that and flexing it in a space that’s a little lower stakes, feels good.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:32):

Right.

Deb Marke (44:33):

And then lastly, we have our Dinner and Dialogue Series, which is really to kind of model what dialogue-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:37):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:38):

… can look like and taking things that maybe feel a little bit like sticky for us.

Shea Kidd Brown (44:42):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (44:42):

So, faith in politics. What is the role of faith? And when we say faith, who’s faith? How does that intersect with our political identity?

Shea Kidd Brown (44:51):

That’s right.

Deb Marke (44:52):

Thinking about race in politics-

Shea Kidd Brown (44:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (44:54):

… and like how people may have been socialized. And then also talking about things that, like, maybe we just don’t know a lot about. I don’t know a lot about AI, and I know that this is our first election cycle where AI is fully out there and thriving.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:07):

Yes.

Deb Marke (45:07):

And so how do we navigate through that?

Shea Kidd Brown (45:09):

That’s right.

Deb Marke (45:09):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (45:10):

Going back to our thread about truth, that makes it really hard to cut across. Like AI has the ability to dub voices, to change lip structures, how it open… Is that true- How do you know, you know? It’s moving so fast. And I love all three treatments. I especially love the last one that you talk about, because something about a meal together, and the ability to say, generally speaking, at dinner, you don’t start with, “Hey, (laughs) what are your politics?” But one of the most intimate things we can do, I think, is share a meal with people. And so I love that you’ve added that into the mix, because I think that’ll be really special.

Deb Marke (45:47):

And I think it, kind of, ties back to, like, the beginning of our conversation.

Shea Kidd Brown (45:50):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (45:50):

There’s something about, like, a good meal, a good conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (45:54):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (45:54):

… and just, like, learning and being together and being present, that I hope can create a sense of, like, “I can do this.”

Shea Kidd Brown (46:02):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (46:02):

Like, sometimes we can talk about things that feel really challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:05):

Right.

Deb Marke (46:05):

And it doesn’t have to be scary.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:07):

No.

Deb Marke (46:08):

And it doesn’t have to be harmful.

Shea Kidd Brown (46:09):

Right. And I don’t have to hate you because you think something else. (laughs)

Deb Marke (46:12):

Yeah. It’s like, I can just say, like, “Hey, I’m glad I understand. And maybe this isn’t for me, and at least I have some other things that maybe I can consider.”

Shea Kidd Brown (46:21):

Right, and I can still respect you as a person, because now I know a little bit more about where that’s coming from. And that to me, I’m hopeful, I believe our community is special. Th- that’s why I’m here. I know it’s why you’re back, and so I’m just so grateful that you’re leading this effort, and, you know, certainly encourage people in our community to be a part of it. And this isn’t something we’re just doing for fall. This will be something that’s sustained, but it’s especially important right now as we enter these really polarizing times.

Deb Marke (46:49):

Yeah, and I just think that, if you have questions or you’re not sure, always ask. Don’t be afraid to ask. I have sat with many a students, calling their local board of elections (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (47:00):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (47:01):

… and walking through, like, the questions that need to be asked, things for clarity, just to make sure that, like, if voting at home is really important to you, don’t let deadlines be the barrier for you to not cast your ballot.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:13):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (47:13):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (47:14):

That’s really good advice. Well, I’m just so thankful for all the work that you’re doing there. Now, after all you’ve talked about, and that was just one part of your job, there’s a lot more parts (laughs) of your job that we probably don’t have time for in, for this episode. But I’m also thinking about Deb outside of Wake Forest, and we talked a few months ago about your chaos garden. So, I’m curious, what do you do to preserve your well-being, and, you know, to take care of yourself as you’re also thinking about some issues that can be heavy, at times?

Deb Marke (47:43):

Yeah, I am a really big proponent of care and practicing my own boundaries-

Shea Kidd Brown (47:48):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (47:48):

… which, like, I have come to realize that, like, I have to communicate my boundaries to people and, like, make sure that I’m holding true to them.

Shea Kidd Brown (47:55):

Sure.

Deb Marke (47:56):

I love to go to spin. You will see me at CycleBar. I go there three to four times a week.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:02):

That’s awesome.

Deb Marke (48:03):

Don’t budge on my 45 minutes.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:04):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (48:05):

Like sometimes, the only 45 minutes-

Shea Kidd Brown (48:06):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:07):

… that I get for myself in a day. So, I schedule out all of my classes three weeks in advance.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:12):

Are you serious? (laughs)

Deb Marke (48:13):

Yeah. I look at my calendar, I map out my month, and I’m like, “This is when I’m going to spin.”

Shea Kidd Brown (48:16):

I need my spot. (laughs)

Deb Marke (48:17):

(laughs) Every night, I take a little bit of my night routine, and I do some, like, gratitude. And I have my little mantras for the year.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:26):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:27):

This year, my mantra is, this is voluntary, and this is temporary, because I am in the throes of grad school.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:32):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:34):

And sometimes I’m like, “This is a lot.” But voluntary, temporary, and we’re, like, right where we need to be. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (48:39):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:40):

I am a big reader. I read mostly fantasy, mostly romance.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:44):

Okay.

Deb Marke (48:44):

Love it. It’s my favorite thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:46):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (48:46):

I read at least 10 minutes, every single day.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:48):

Really?

Deb Marke (48:49):

Even if it’s just a few pages-

Shea Kidd Brown (48:51):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (48:51):

… I’m like, “We’re gonna read.”

Shea Kidd Brown (48:52):

That’s good.

Deb Marke (48:52):

And then, being outside. Love being in the dirt. Love planting.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:56):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (48:56):

My chaos garden is now thriving.

Shea Kidd Brown (48:59):

Okay, good.

Deb Marke (48:59):

My [inaudible 00:48:59] have gotten so tall.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:01):

Aah.

Deb Marke (49:01):

And so, I have a veggie garden. I do a lot of sunflowers. I just love plants. I have a native plant garden. And then, also just making time to be with people that, that make me feel loved and-

Shea Kidd Brown (49:14):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (49:14):

… cared for and supported. So every Friday, I watch Drag Race, or The Amazing Race.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:20):

Nice.

Deb Marke (49:21):

And have some people over, and those are some of the things that I do.

Shea Kidd Brown (49:25):

Yeah. Well, sounds like a very much a discipline. You know, we talk about practicing gratitude or practicing mindfulness, because it has to be a three-week out priority, because our schedules are full, and I know CycleBar is popular, and so if you don’t plan and create the structure to allow for that, it goes by the wayside. And so many people in the work that we do, we are so oriented toward caring for students that we have to be very, very focused on, “What does that also look like for us?” So, thanks for modeling that.

Deb Marke (49:57):

How can I tell other people that they need to rest and like-

Shea Kidd Brown (49:59):

Yeah. (laughs)

Deb Marke (50:00):

… take time for themselves if I don’t do that? (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (50:01):

Right. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, Pro Humanitate is something that is important to our community. We talk about it all the time, “for humanity,” and oftentimes that’s outward, you know. But it’s also, should be inward, (laughs) in terms of, how am I becoming a better person? How am I taking care of my person? (laughs) You know, all of those kinds of things. So, as we begin to wrap, I can’t leave this conversation without hearing you say a little bit about how you’ve internalized Pro Humanitate, and how you try to live that out throughout your days?

Deb Marke (50:29):

Wake is just so unique, because our motto actually like, is something that people know and-

Shea Kidd Brown (50:33):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (50:34):

… [inaudible 00:50:34] really close thinking about the little things that I do on the day-to-day. Like, “How am I leaving this space better than how I found it? How am I encouraging? How am I pouring in? How am I challenging? How am I supporting?” And then it’s also sometimes the more tangible, like my partner and I volunteer with the Humane Society. We foster through that. We also do a lot of education around the importance of spay and neutering. And I’m really passionate about reproductive justice, and so I’m a doula, and so really thinking about, how do we make these services more accessible so that-

Shea Kidd Brown (51:07):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (51:08):

… people can have dignified and safe birthing experiences?

Shea Kidd Brown (51:12):

Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Marke (51:12):

And so sometimes it’s big, and then sometimes it’s small.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:14):

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (51:15):

And I think that all of that really encompasses Pro Humanitate.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:19):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (51:19):

And is accessible to everybody.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:21):

Yeah, and it’s a beautiful articulation of at home and in the world, as we’ve been really leaned into our Strategic Framework. And it’s sort of our manifesto now that Wake Forest will embody Pro Humanitate at home and in the world. And I don’t know about you, but for me, a lot of what we do is in service to students on campus. And so you’ve really figured out a sweet spot of also, “What does that mean in the community? What does that mean in my life?” So, thank you for that.

Deb Marke (51:46):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (51:47):

I’ll lastly ask you, just, what are you hopeful for as you think about the future? I know you are wrapping up a master’s, that master’s program, that you were encouraged to do.

Deb Marke (51:56):

(laughs) I am really hopeful about, sort of, like, the energy of our campus. I think that, like, I am so excited about hearing from our students and what they’re passionate about, what they’re thinking about, what they are excited for, and what they hope to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (52:17):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (52:17):

And I think for me, like, on a personal level, I really believe a lot in, like, reimagining the world that we want to see. And I am so inspired by the people that are doing such great work, it’s really easy to overlook-

Shea Kidd Brown (52:34):

Sure.

Deb Marke (52:34):

… all the beauty and all the good that is happening, when it just feels like there’s a lot of heaviness.

Shea Kidd Brown (52:39):

Mm-hmm.

Deb Marke (52:40):

And so, I just feel like in a 100 years (laughs)-

Shea Kidd Brown (52:44):

(laughs)

Deb Marke (52:44):

… when I am no longer here, I know that one day, there are going to be students and people who are navigating the world and will never have to experience the things that I’ve experienced, because we have come together enough to do the work-

Shea Kidd Brown (53:00):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (53:01):

… the really hard work, to create a more just and gracious and empathetic society. People can really thrive.

Shea Kidd Brown (53:08):

Yeah.

Deb Marke (53:08):

And so, that’s what keeps me going.

Shea Kidd Brown (53:09):

Wow.

Deb Marke (53:12):

A little cradle of joy. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (53:12):

Yeah, well that’s a, a lot to be hopeful for. So, and a good way for us to end. Thank you so much for being a part-

Deb Marke (53:17):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (53:17):

… of the conversation. I learned so much from you today.

Deb Marke (53:19):

Thanks for asking. These are really good questions. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (53:22):

(laughs) I try, I try. 

Thank you so much for listening. And as always, I feel so grateful to sit in this seat and in this case, to work alongside such a great person. I learned a lot during this conversation, that admittedly, I’m still processing it, but I’m thinking about cassava leaves, reminded of the tangible connections to home [inaudible 00:53:46] provides. I loved hearing Deb’s perspective about helping and how that created pathways in her leadership journey. I’m processing a lot, like, figuring out what belonging means to me. Finding my voice. That dissonance is okay. How important mentorship is, and how critical it is to find people who are safe. That we can do hard things. That sometimes, we count ourselves out. And that it’s the little moments that mean the most.

(54:19):

Deb gave us so much to think about. In addition to all of these nuggets, certainly, the election is front and center, and it’s so important to lean into conversation. She talked about doing our homework and staying informed to make good decisions and doing whatever it needs to be done, whenever we see a need. We all have such an opportunity to make a difference in this world. I “Kidd” you not. Let’s lean into this important season with hard work and heart work. Thank you again for listening.

MaryAnna Bailey (54:54):

For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.

MUSIC (00:02):

(music)

Shea Kidd Brown (00:06):

Today, I have the pleasure of talking with Kevin Dunn. Kevin is a senior at Wake Forest University, where he is studying Politics and International Affairs and Classical Studies. He’s minoring in Communication. Kevin is a familiar face on campus where he is a member of the Wake Forest men’s basketball team, president of Hit The Bricks, which is coming up this fall, and a tour guide, just to name a few. Last summer, he earned the prestigious Richter Scholarship, where he studied the Ukrainian diaspora. And this summer, he’s spent some time in New York City as an intern. I am looking so forward to our conversation today.

(00:41):

So hi, Kevin.

Kevin Dunn (00:42):

Dr. Shea Kidd Brown, how you doing today?

Shea Kidd Brown (00:44):

I’m good. How are you?

Kevin Dunn (00:45):

Great. Thanks for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (00:47):

Thanks for being here. You know, I always laugh when you say, “Dr. Shea Kidd Brown,” (laughs) because you just say my whole name whenever you see me on campus. It makes me smile, so-

Kevin Dunn (00:54):

When I first met you, I thought it was your full last name, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:56):

Oh. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (00:56):

I-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:57):

So you just said it all. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (00:59):

Now it’s just locked it in my head. I can’t change it, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (00:59):

Yeah. Well, that makes sense. That makes sense. Dr. Shea is also okay.

Kevin Dunn (01:04):

I’ll try.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:04):

Well, I know you have a busy schedule, so thanks for making time to be here.

Kevin Dunn (01:09):

Oh, thanks. I listened to all the podcasts before.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:11):

Oh?

Kevin Dunn (01:11):

I listened to Coach Forbes’s. It won’t be as funny or entertaining-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:13):

(laughs)

Kevin Dunn (01:13):

… as he is, but-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:14):

Well…

Kevin Dunn (01:14):

… I’ll try my best. He’s the best, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (01:15):

Every story has merit, and-

Kevin Dunn (01:17):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:17):

… is funny, and all those things, so…

Kevin Dunn (01:19):

Well, I have no Iowa City stories, but I’ll do my best.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:22):

Yeah. I, I bet you have some stories, though.

Kevin Dunn (01:23):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:24):

So as you know, because you listen to the podcast, you know, this is really about getting to know you, your story. Nobody can tell it better than you because it’s yours, so that’s really no pressure. Everybody comes into these a little nervous, including me. So we have had a chance, thankfully, to connect several times since I started in my role, but we’ve really never had just a conversation without a meal, just talking about deeper things, so I’m looking forward to that so-

Kevin Dunn (01:51):

I’m excited to be here. I’m honored.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:51):

Thank you. I am too, honored you said yes.

Kevin Dunn (01:53):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (01:54):

So, and I know it’s a big year. You’re a senior, so lots going on, so I look forward to digging into that. But because you’ve listened to the podcast, you can guess what my first question is gonna be.

Kevin Dunn (02:02):

Where I’m from.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:03):

Yeah. Or where’s home for you?

Kevin Dunn (02:05):

Where’s home. [inaudible 00:02:06]

Shea Kidd Brown (02:05):

Yeah, yeah (laughs). So I am curious, you know, where is home and who was Kevin before Kevin was at Wake Forest?

Kevin Dunn (02:12):

Yeah. So I was born in Philadelphia. And then when I was four years old, moved to Los Angeles-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:16):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (02:16):

… Santa Monica. I was eight and moved to Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Never heard of it. [inaudible 00:02:23].

Shea Kidd Brown (02:22):

(laughs) You had never heard of it before.

Kevin Dunn (02:23):

Ne- I’d never heard of it, but I was super excited. Really nervous to move into Winston-Salem, and my dad and I signed up for a father-son basketball camp. Lived in Davis for three days.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Davis Hall?

Kevin Dunn (02:31):

Davis Hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:31):

Really? Oh my gosh.

Kevin Dunn (02:32):

The dorm which I then stayed in sophomore year.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:34):

No way. I did not know this. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (02:35):

Um, we were roommates for three days. Had an absolute blast. What I remember is I’d been so nervous about moving to Winston-Salem-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:40):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (02:40):

… and then went to camp and I was like, “This is the best place ever,” you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (02:44):

Was a humongous Wake Forest fan from then on and I wanted to play college basketball-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:47):

Wow.

Kevin Dunn (02:48):

… when I was in second grade.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:49):

I did not know that. Your family has a history of basketball, right?

Kevin Dunn (02:52):

Right, so my great grandmother played college basketball on one side, and my grandfather played basketball in college-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (02:58):

… and he beat Wilt Chamberlain in high school.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:59):

No way.

Kevin Dunn (03:00):

And then didn’t play that much in college, and then three of my uncles played college basketball and didn’t play very much, so that part runs in the family as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:06):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:06):

Uh, not playing very much. But, uh, we have a lot of basketball in my family and we love it. My dad played in high school. My brother did as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:12):

And your brother also played football, right?

Kevin Dunn (03:14):

Football in college.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:14):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (03:14):

So, athletic family.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:15):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (03:16):

But I’m su- super proud to be, it’s my lifelong dream to play basketball at Wake.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:19):

Yeah, that’s amazing.

Kevin Dunn (03:20):

So three years. And then I lived in Winston until I was a senior in high school. Then I did an extra year in high school-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:25):

… in Connecticut for basketball. And then I was going to commit to another school and then Wake Forest offered me, said yes on the phone, and then I had to call the other school back and say, “Hey, actually, no. I was gonna commit tomorrow, but got an offer I can’t refuse.”

Shea Kidd Brown (03:35):

Hmm. You tracked back to, to being eight in Davis Hall.

Kevin Dunn (03:37):

Yep, right.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Yeah. Well, I, I didn’t know that. I didn’t realize you were so young when you moved to Winston, so that truly is home.

Kevin Dunn (03:43):

Right.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

That’s where you spent the majority of your time. Now, do you have memories from California at all?

Kevin Dunn (03:48):

I do, for sure, yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:49):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:50):

It was, it was a lot of fun living in California. It’s very different than living in Winston. But I go back every year, too.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:54):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dunn (03:54):

And then my dad used to work at the building next to Admissions, Starling Hall.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:58):

Okay.

Kevin Dunn (03:58):

So I used to walk from Summit School, which is the middle school across the street-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kevin Dunn (04:01):

… to Starling Hall, like, every other day.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

Right.

Kevin Dunn (04:02):

So I would literally be on campus every other day, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:05):

Felt like a big kid on campus-

Kevin Dunn (04:06):

I did, I-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:06):

… even before you got here.

Kevin Dunn (04:08):

… used to work with my dad and I used to go the dining hall, and I thought it was the best place in the world.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:09):

Yeah.

Kevin Dunn (04:09):

Thought it was so cool.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:10):

Like, you can eat anything you want.

Kevin Dunn (04:11):

Oh yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:12):

You can have pizza every day. (laughs)

Kevin Dunn (04:13):

The ice cream machine was, like, a hit for me, so-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:15):

Well, it’s bringing back memories for me because my son has grown up in higher ed, too, and so he’s older now, but those same kinds of things exist for him, so I’ll be interested in where he chooses to go to college. So, you moved here in second grade. Tell me, you loved basketball, so that was a big thing.

Kevin Dunn (04:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:32):

But what else do you remember about being a kid? Uh, what kind of child were you? What, what was your personality?

Kevin Dunn (04:38):