Kidd You Not!

Shea Kidd Brown (00:07):

Hey, it’s Dr. Shea. And this is Kidd You Not. The purpose of Kidd You Not is to connect the audience to our shared humanity. You know, oftentimes we observe one another from a distance, but it’s surprising how human we all are when we get up close. That’s really the why behind the title.

(00:27):

Here, we’ll discover what connects us to our commonalities, our differences, our stories and yes, our humanity. We’ll talk about what brings us joy, what makes us tick, and how we found meaning and purpose as we navigate the hard work and heart work of life. In my role at Wake Forest University, I get to work with some pretty amazing people. And in fact, when I was transitioning here, I earned points with my son when I shared that I will get work alongside the Chief of Police. Today, I get to talk to Assistant Vice President and Chief of Police Regina Lawson.

(01:03):

Regina is a member of my leadership team and has been at Wake Forest for more than 30 years. She’s an active contributor in her field through the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators, also known as IACLEA. In fact, Wake Forest was the first accredited police department in the country. Today, that number sits at 73. Chief Lawson is passionate about the student experience and the mission of UP is to provide a safe and inclusive community where students, faculty, staff, and visitors may experience a sense of security and belonging. I look forward to visiting with her today.

(01:38):

So, hello, and welcome. How are you?

Regina Lawson (01:41):

Hi, I’m doing good. How are you?

Shea Kidd Brown (01:43):

I’m doing well. We have both had full days today.

Regina Lawson (01:46):

It’s Monday.

Shea Kidd Brown (01:47):

It is Monday, the day we’re recording is beginning of a week, which means we are rolling (laughs) in here and not sure what may come of today’s conversation after a Monday. So, I’m really glad to talk with you. And I imagine there’s a whole lot we could dig into given your job and my job and how we work closely together. So, you ready to get started?

Regina Lawson (02:07):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:08):

Okay. So, starting with the common questions become a theme to start with this concept of home. So, where’s home for you? We’ll start there.

Regina Lawson (02:15):

Yeah. So, that’s funny. I’m Regina Lawson from Lawsonville, North Carolina.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:19):

Really? (laughs) Nice.

Regina Lawson (02:21):

I grew up in very small town in Stokes County and until I went to the first grade, I lived on Aubrey Lawson Road, which is named after my grandfather.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:30):

Oh, wow.

Regina Lawson (02:31):

Yeah. Very small town. The welcome sign was on one post, you know. (laughs) That’s just a joke-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:37):

Nice.

Regina Lawson (02:37):

… that the locals tell. But-

Shea Kidd Brown (02:38):

Right.

Regina Lawson (02:38):

Yeah, it’s very small.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:40):

Yeah. Do you remember what the population was?

Regina Lawson (02:43):

It is a few 100.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Really?

Regina Lawson (02:44):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:44):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (02:45):

It’s very rural, farming community. We have an elementary school, country store and a post office that has actually scaled back to, like, shorter hours now.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:56):

Hmm. We’ve never talked about that.

Regina Lawson (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:57):

And we talk a lot.

Regina Lawson (02:57):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (02:58):

Yeah. So, you have a namesake-

Regina Lawson (02:59):

(laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (03:00):

… in your city, in your street. And the second part of that question is what does home mean to you? So, oftentimes, people say, “Where are you from?” And I’ll say, “Where’s home for you?” I would love to just hear your thoughts on what does that mean? What does that word home mean to you?

Regina Lawson (03:14):

Yeah. Lawsonville was a great place to grow up.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:17):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:17):

But it was also the kind of place that as you got older into the teenage years, you kind of wanted to leave and go explore.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:25):

But it’s amazing how myself and many others ended up gravitating back-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:30):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:31):

… you know, to that area. And I don’t think that it’s too uncommon. But home is kind of where you have your roots and-

Shea Kidd Brown (03:38):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:38):

… where you feel comfortable and just… you know I don’t live there now.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:44):

Right.

Regina Lawson (03:44):

But we still have the family farm and it’s just somewhere when you go, you just have this special kind of nostalgic, reminiscent kind of experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (03:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (03:55):

And soak in all the smells of fresh mowed hay-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (04:00):

… or cow pastures (laughs) or-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:02):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:03):

… the smell of rain calming you.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:04):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:05):

You know, those kinds of outdoor things that just kind of remind you of home.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:07):

Mm-hmm. All of that. I remember when we did that activity where we talked about “I am from…” and it was like sights and sounds and smells when you said, hay bells that reminded me of that. I think about pine trees and sand and ocean smells, so kind of transports you back when you think about home but also we all both created home in other places, too. So… and really, I should have started with this. But people know you as our Chief of Police, but we all have an origin story.

(04:34):

So, I love hearing a little bit more about that and to dig into that a bit more. Can you tell me a little bit about your family? And maybe tell me about your grandfather, what you remember, but anything you want to share about your family? And-

Regina Lawson (04:46):

I think what’s interesting is we were working class but we were pretty much poor.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (04:50):

I mean, I lived in a house with no bathroom until the first grade and I say that-

Shea Kidd Brown (04:54):

Really?

Regina Lawson (04:54):

… not for sympathy. Just, you know, you don’t know… yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (04:56):

It contextualizes. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (04:58):

What you don’t know. And our family were farmers.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:01):

My mother’s family had relocated from West Virginia where they had been coal miners and my grandfather on my mom’s side worked for Pike Electric and actually helped to build Camp Lejeune military base.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:13):

And that’s where my mom was born. And then, my grandfather on my dad’s side was the farmer, horse trader, and he was just someone who seems just like we had a special relationship.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:25):

You’re not supposed to have favorites, but I think he and I both had-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:27):

(laughing)

Regina Lawson (05:29):

… favorites. I mean, there’s a picture of my office when I’m not even old enough to walk and it’s he and I on horse-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:33):

On a horse? Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:35):

… together, you know. He was a just a very practical, down to earth, problem solver-

Shea Kidd Brown (05:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:40):

… very, you know, innovative.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:41):

(laughs) Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:44):

And then, he come to had big gardens and our family farmed tobacco.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:46):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (05:48):

When that was kinda the cash crop.

Shea Kidd Brown (05:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (05:50):

So, it’s kind of the way I grew up. My dad actually worked in Department of Corrections. And my uncle on my mom’s side actually worked for the Sheriff’s Department. And so, they were kind of indirectly somehow inspired me to go into law enforcement-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (06:06):

… although that wasn’t my first major. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (06:07):

Okay. Well, I want to dig into all of that. So, before we go there, I mean, I wanna talk about horses. (laughs) I wanna talk about law enforcement. I want to talk about not having indoor plumbing (laughs) and farming. So, I’m curious what you learned from farming. You know, were you a part of that? Do you have memories of being part of that as a child?

Regina Lawson (06:26):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:26):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (06:27):

And, you know, it, it taught me a lot. And one thing sometimes in the work, you can get through a day, you don’t necessarily look back and see tangible results.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:36):

Right.

Regina Lawson (06:36):

When you’re on the farm, and you’ve plowed the field-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:38):

Right.

Regina Lawson (06:39):

… you see tangible results.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:40):

Yeah. (laughs) Look what I did.

Regina Lawson (06:41):

Yeah. Yeah. So… and it taught you that a lot of things are not in your control.

Shea Kidd Brown (06:47):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:47):

You know, the weather and just catastrophic conditions sometimes and-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:50):

Sure.

Regina Lawson (06:51):

But it also taught you the value of labor-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:55):

… and how you have to care for the land-

Shea Kidd Brown (06:57):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (06:57):

… and the environment, and made me very passionate about that. The office will tell you I’m big on recycling, so.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:03):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (07:03):

But it also taught me the value of money. My sister and I, we started our own checking accounts when we were 13.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:11):

Really?

Regina Lawson (07:12):

We had our allocated two acres of tobacco.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:15):

So, that was our own money-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (07:15):

… and our income.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:15):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:18):

And we had to pay for our expenses.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:21):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:21):

And pay for the staff.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:22):

And you had to pay for your staff?

Regina Lawson (07:23):

Yeah. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:23):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:24):

Wait, when I say staff that that’s in today’s word.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:26):

Right.

Regina Lawson (07:26):

We had to pay for our help-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:28):

… that helped us with the crops.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:29):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:31):

And that was a way that my sister and I made money by going and-

Shea Kidd Brown (07:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (07:34):

… working for other families.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:36):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (07:36):

And people would come and we would have to pay per hour.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:40):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:40):

It was a morning that we had three people help us. They work for five hours, we had to write our checks.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:45):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (07:46):

So, we had to pay them.

Shea Kidd Brown (07:47):

Gosh, that teaches you something really early, and also that you went, and worked, and sort of reciprocated that in different ways. Were there particular crops that you worked in, on? I don’t know the right language. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (07:58):

Yeah. So, primarily tobacco. Tobacco is-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:01):

So, you did that as well?

Regina Lawson (08:02):

Correct.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:02):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (08:03):

We would help other families-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (08:05):

… get up hay, we mowed yards.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (08:07):

That was the kind of jobs in the community because-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:08):

Right.

Regina Lawson (08:10):

… you didn’t have McDonald’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (08:11):

Right. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (08:12):

… to work at.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:14):

No, no. I mean, the things you said that you learned about it even down to sustainability, like to be able to in a very simple form, put a seed in the ground and will not have that instant gratification on some levels, but to plow the field and have the instant gratification. I mean, that there’s probably a million life lessons that you could go down and, and think about that.

(08:31):

I think about my 14-year-old who let’s just say hasn’t written a check. They don’t really, don’t really do that these days. But even just as a good reminder for me as a mom, like those things you can teach your kids really early. They can have a responsibility to steward that. So, he has a little bit of an allowance. So, now, he’s very selective on how he spends his money.

Regina Lawson (08:50):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:51):

He’s not as selective on how he spends my money. Now, did you have siblings?

Regina Lawson (08:55):

I am the oldest of three daughters.

Shea Kidd Brown (08:57):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (08:57):

So, I had a younger sister that very close, we’re 10 months apart.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:02):

And then, the baby-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:02):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (09:04):

… nine years later.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (09:05):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

The caboose.

Regina Lawson (09:05):

The caboose-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:07):

… came along and, uh, we’re very fortunate we all live in Winston-Salem area.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:11):

Now, we’ve lived other places very close. My father would jokingly tell people, he said three strikes, and he was out, I think he wanted a son.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (09:20):

But he kind of-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:20):

And he was in.

Regina Lawson (09:24):

Yeah, he was. He imparted a lot of skills in us that he would probably-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:26):

… taught his sons as well.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:30):

So, we, we learned a lot. And I think it benefited us whether it was how to change a flat tire-

Shea Kidd Brown (09:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (09:32):

… and how to drive a tractor.

Shea Kidd Brown (09:33):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (09:34):

Things like that. And the other thing he would jokingly say having three daughters and a wife was he never really got to spend a lot of time in the bathroom. And that we never got anywhere on time. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (09:45):

Yeah. (laughs) Some of those stereotypes are true, right? So, I have to ask you about horses because you mentioned riding horse with your grandfather. So, is that where the love of horses? So, for those who don’t know, the chief really enjoys riding horses and spends time, but you don’t really have a lot of downtime, but the downtime you have doing that. So, talk a little bit about that.

Regina Lawson (10:05):

It’s kind of my therapy. And I’ve had horses pretty much my whole life. When I was in college, my grandfather passed away. And it didn’t make sense at the time. So, we ended up selling horses. So, there’s a small period of time when I actually didn’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:19):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:20):

… have a horse even on the farm.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:22):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (10:22):

But it’s three or four years, not very, long, you know- (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (10:23):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:25):

… of my long life. But I look at it as kind of therapy, my escape.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:27):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:28):

Horses, you either love them or hate them.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:30):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:30):

And you have to love them because they are a lot of work.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:32):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (10:33):

But become a second family and they are just like pets, if you have cats or dogs.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:38):

Very big pets. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (10:38):

Very big pets, they have all personality differences and look at cleaning the stalls it’s just something-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:46):

… kind of its work. But it’s also there’s something therapeutic-

Shea Kidd Brown (10:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:50):

… about that just spending time at the barn just gives me just a break from the day.

Shea Kidd Brown (10:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (10:55):

And admittedly, there are still some places that you can take horses where cellphones don’t reach.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:01):

Oh. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:02):

(laughs) So, I got-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:02):

So, you get to really disconnect. And I would imagine answering a cellphone on a horse would be dangerous anyway.

Regina Lawson (11:08):

You know, it can be, but you’d be amazed. Sometimes like we go on these rides, and all of a sudden, you’ll see people kind of huddle up and you’ll see them all on their phones because there’s a spot where they’ve got cell service.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Cell service. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:18):

And so, they’re-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (11:18):

… they’re all FaceTime-ing.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (11:18):

Like things like that.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:18):

Oh, that is funny.

Regina Lawson (11:25):

So, it’s kind of odd that you go from the Pony Express-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:28):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (11:28):

… Messenger days to-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:29):

Right.

Regina Lawson (11:29):

… watching everybody on their phones on the horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:30):

On their cellphone. Yeah. Well, have you done competitions or?

Regina Lawson (11:33):

You know, over the years, you know, certainly my grandfather, we used to go to these little backyard shows and rodeos.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (11:39):

And something that’s really enjoyable, but you… in this today’s environment, you have to have a sponsor or be independently wealthy.

Shea Kidd Brown (11:48):

Yeah. It’s so expensive.

Regina Lawson (11:49):

They’re very much very expensive. And one, because of the travel-

Shea Kidd Brown (11:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (11:54):

… you have to have a job that has flexibility. And, you know, there was a point in time where you can have kind of mediocre horses and be okay.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:00):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (12:00):

But now you have to have the athletes.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

That won’t work. Okay. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (12:01):

Yeah. To be, you know, competitive.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:01):

Right.

Regina Lawson (12:05):

Like a lot of other things. The things I do enjoy, it’s called ranch sorting or, you know, cutting and you can have an okay horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:12):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:12):

And it’s just a lot of fun. It’s for the fun of it. And you do compete, you and, um, partner on horses go in and you go into a herd of cows and you-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:22):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:23):

… cut the cows out, you know, they call out a number, you cut the cows out and you’re timed and so-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:28):

So, what is the cut the cow out mean?

Regina Lawson (12:30):

The cut the cow means sometimes you have 10 cows and sometimes you have more cows. Usually, they’re numbered.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:37):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:38):

And so, when they announcer calls out the number, you go into the herd, on your horse, and you extract that numbered cow out.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:45):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (12:46):

And then, you go in sequence. So, if they call out number two, you go get number two-

Shea Kidd Brown (12:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (12:50):

… take it out of the pen, then you go get number three.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:53):

But when you go get it, what does that mean? What do you- (laughs)

Regina Lawson (12:56):

So, yeah, you ride it. You know, this is really good, this challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (12:57):

Yeah. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (13:00):

So, uh, you, you ride your horse toward that-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:02):

Okay. To the cow?

Regina Lawson (13:03):

… cow, in the herd.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:04):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:05):

And you kind of circle it with your horse.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:06):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:07):

You don’t rope it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:08):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:08):

You just kind of have to convince it.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:10):

To come with you?

Regina Lawson (13:11):

To come with you.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:12):

Oh, interesting.

Regina Lawson (13:13):

But you’re… you know, in horse language it’s called pushing a cow out.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:16):

So, you kind of get behind the cow. And then, the word cutting comes from your horse maneuvers in such a way that your horse really kind of, again, circles the cow-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (13:28):

… extracts the cow-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:28):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (13:29):

… from the herd. At some of the round robins, you ride with different people, different teammates.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:34):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (13:35):

You can have really good riders or beginners.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (13:41):

And so, it’s just a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:41):

I got to check this out. I need to look on YouTube, so I can get a visual.

Regina Lawson (13:43):

I’ll send you some videos.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:44):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (13:45):

And I could talk all day about it. But that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (13:46):

That’s… I’m fascinated, I wanna know more.

Regina Lawson (13:48):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (13:48):

So, have you had, I mean, any kind of injury or anything that made you not wanna do that anymore?

Regina Lawson (13:54):

You know, I’ve been really lucky. I’ve been hurt several times, but nothing real serious. You know, early days, I think I was in the first grade, maybe. I was on a horse and it just kind of took off running and I fell off.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:10):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:10):

My foot was in the stirrup, so it-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:11):

Oh, wow.

Regina Lawson (14:12):

Yeah, but got through that okay. And then-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:14):

Mm-hmm. You know what it means to get back in the saddle for real?

Regina Lawson (14:15):

I mean, I do. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (14:15):

And sometimes it’s a little unnerving if-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:15):

Not bad.

Regina Lawson (14:20):

If people tell you they’re not scared, you have to just kind of overcome that.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:25):

But I mean, I’ve gotten to a point riding that, um, I’m not going to take the risks that I’ve taken, you know, previously-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:31):

… because I’ve had broken leg, three broken fingers.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:36):

Oh, my gosh. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (14:36):

A lot over the years. I mean, a lot of-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:39):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (14:39):

… fractured ribs.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:41):

Oh, my gosh. Just from-

Regina Lawson (14:41):

Rib just trying the most-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:42):

… from falling off or?

Regina Lawson (14:43):

From coming off. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:43):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (14:45):

That’s just kind of a common.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (14:46):

Depending on how you hit, but, but I mean-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:48):

That’s amazing.

Regina Lawson (14:49):

… compared to a lot of people, they get seriously injured.

Shea Kidd Brown (14:50):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (14:50):

I’ve been very fortunate and-

Shea Kidd Brown (14:52):

No, that’s amazing that you’ve been fortunate, and that you’ve been willing to do it again. You know, I can draw a lot of parallels to what I see in you today. And in terms of in a tough job, and we’ll talk about that in a little bit. But we’ve always talked surfacey about horses and I know that’s, uh, an area that you get to just be. And we all need that. We all need outlets to be able to do that. So, I love that. So, who were you as a child? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:18):

So, I’m going to tell stories about me. For some reason, I stored my toy guns in the refrigerator.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:23):

Are you serious? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:27):

And I, I always had like cuts or bruises on my legs and I wear cowboy boots all the time, even with shorts. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:34):

That is amazing. The refrigerator? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (15:36):

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t… or maybe I thought it was a safe. I don’t, I don’t know. And to the day my first grade school teacher passed away, every time I saw her somewhere.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:46):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (15:46):

She always told the story about me being in the first grade. And this was a teacher that taught her whole career at the same-

Shea Kidd Brown (15:52):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (15:52):

… elementary school. She taught my father and my uncle.

Shea Kidd Brown (15:56):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (15:57):

And so, in the first grade, somehow we were running on the sidewalk and I fell and skint my knees.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:01):

That’s when you wore dresses to-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:03):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:03):

… go to school all the time. And I told my teacher, I said, “I’ll be okay. My pa has a blue horse medicine he’ll put on my knees and they’ll be fine.”

Shea Kidd Brown (16:10):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (16:11):

And so, she loved telling that story-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Yes.

Regina Lawson (16:14):

… every time I saw her.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

Of that event. That is-

Regina Lawson (16:14):

Yeah. She’s like, “I’m fine. My pa has a blue horse medicine.” (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (16:14):

That’ll fix it all.

Regina Lawson (16:21):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:22):

So, you were, uh, from the beginning resourceful, and it sounds like rugged, and able to compete with whoever you needed to.

Regina Lawson (16:30):

People have often kind of call me like gritty or-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:33):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:34):

… and a kind of we had a saying in our family, if you’re going to be dumb, you better be tough.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:38):

(laughs)

Regina Lawson (16:39):

So, if you made a bad decision, you better be ready for the consequences of that-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (16:46):

… you know, this horse is ready.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:46):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (16:46):

Or this horse is not ready or-

Shea Kidd Brown (16:47):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (16:47):

… should I have, that came up a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (16:49):

You have the most amazing sayings. (laughs) I know when I came here to work, I was like, “Okay. I got to write this down. There are three sides to every story.” That’s one. You said something about creature?

Regina Lawson (16:58):

Creature comfort?

Shea Kidd Brown (16:59):

Yes. Creature comforts.

Regina Lawson (17:00):

Yeah. Yeah. I talk about that at the EOC.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:02):

Yes. Yes.

Regina Lawson (17:02):

Yeah. We have to have our creature comforts.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:03):

Absolutely. And three sides to every story was, if I remember correctly, you hear both sides. And then, you make sense of the middle, essentially. So, there’s three sides, and I definitely use that every day. So, we talked about you storing guns in the refrigerator?

Regina Lawson (17:17):

Toy gun, toy gun.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:18):

A toy. Thank you for clarifying. Toy guns. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (17:20):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:21):

What was your childhood career? Did you know… well, I know, for me, I wanted to be a veterinarian, and I realized that vets have to work on horses to connect this dot and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know about that.” So, did you have a childhood dream job?

Regina Lawson (17:33):

You know, I, I wanted to be a cowboy.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Did you? (laughs)

Regina Lawson (17:37):

Yeah. And, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:37):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (17:39):

… and I grew up in the era where you watch like Gunsmoke-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:41):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:42):

… and, uh, Bonanza, and my favorite was the Wild Wild West.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:46):

And that was Jim West and Artemus Gordon, and they were US Secret Service agents-

Shea Kidd Brown (17:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:50):

… working for that time, President Grant. And so, so, I think that’s where I kind of developed this interest in law and order.

Shea Kidd Brown (17:58):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (17:58):

And then, kind of career wise. But it was really about-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:01):

… riding the horses and the guns. Yeah. (laughs)

Shea Kidd Brown (18:03):

Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. And you said that wasn’t your first. Your major wasn’t connected to that in college?

Regina Lawson (18:09):

It wasn’t. And in this is kind of a, a funny story. In high school, I took accounting.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:16):

And I liked that because you feel like you had money. You know, you’re always, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:19):

All the scenarios.

Regina Lawson (18:20):

… were doing these exercises and stuff.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:22):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (18:22):

So, I was an accounting major for one semester.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:24):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (18:24):

And I went back to school, you know, after Christmas break. And that was back in the day when you stood in the long drop/add lines and the big gym.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:33):

Mm-hmm. And remind us where you went to school?

Regina Lawson (18:34):

UNC Wilmington.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:34):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (18:37):

I changed my major to sociology.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:40):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:41):

And minored in criminal justice.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:42):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (18:42):

And that summer I started working the day I got home for school for summer break-

Shea Kidd Brown (18:48):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:48):

… at the Stokes County Sheriff’s Department and worked up until the Friday before I went back to school on Sunday.

Shea Kidd Brown (18:54):

Hmm.

Regina Lawson (18:54):

And then, when I got back to UNCW, I started working for their version of Deacon Student Patrol like-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:00):

Oh, my gosh.

Regina Lawson (19:01):

So, that’s-

Shea Kidd Brown (19:02):

And was there a moment that you said… I know you said you were in accounting for a semester. But did you connect… you talked about your parents being involved in law enforcement or family members?

Regina Lawson (19:13):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:13):

Was that kind of a through line always or was there something that you were exposed to in college that made that feel like it could be a career for you?

Regina Lawson (19:20):

My uncle who was then a Major for the Sheriff’s Department, he was the one that had a need, an individual, the records manager was going to be out on maternity leave, the exact same month I was home for a break.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:33):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (19:34):

So, that gave me tons of exposure and experience.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (19:38):

I got to go up in a helicopter and look at marijuana.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:41):

And you were how old?

Regina Lawson (19:43):

I was 19.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:44):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (19:44):

Yeah. But it was just because detectives kind of took me under their wing.

Shea Kidd Brown (19:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (19:49):

And they… I jokingly say I solved my first case then because the office building that we were in was attached to the jail and, uh, jail trustees cleaned, the custodial work.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:02):

And there was actually drop ceilings kind of like in this room and there was dust on the table.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:08):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:08):

And it wasn’t there today before. And I was down there cleaning up old files. And all of a sudden, I told one of the detectives about it, and realized that they were going in through the ceiling tiles and getting contraband out of property and evidence.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:22):

Oh, no way.

Regina Lawson (20:23):

So, yeah. So, that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:24):

You really did.

Regina Lawson (20:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:25):

I mean, that was a big deal.

Regina Lawson (20:26):

Uh, it was. I mean, I didn’t realize how big of a deal it was-

Shea Kidd Brown (20:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (20:30):

… until later in my career.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:31):

And talk about the noticing, so often we’re so busy, and we don’t recognize these tiny little details. And that was something that was so significant to cracking that case.

Regina Lawson (20:42):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:42):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (20:43):

Another funny piece of that is like, I read a police report. That’s a one-page police report on a murder.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (20:50):

And I was like, “How can this be all?”

Shea Kidd Brown (20:52):

Right. (laughs) Yeah.

Regina Lawson (20:54):

It was just a different time.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:56):

Yeah. Interesting.

Regina Lawson (20:57):

I would say 1982.

Shea Kidd Brown (20:59):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (20:59):

Yeah. I know, a long time ago.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:01):

So, you had that opportunity when person was on parental leave-

Regina Lawson (21:05):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:05):

… to really see it up close. And then, is that when you came back and you were like, “I wanna do sociology and minor in criminal justice?”

Regina Lawson (21:12):

Correct. I’d already changed majors, but that kind of solidified things for me.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:15):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (21:15):

And I’d actually me and my sister over that Christmas break, and went to see a movie called My Squad. So, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to be an FBI agent.” So, I was, you know-

Shea Kidd Brown (21:24):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (21:24):

… building my resume.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:26):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (21:26):

And that’s what I was working on that.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

You went from cowboy to?

Regina Lawson (21:27):

Yeah. To FBI.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:27):

FBI agent.

Regina Lawson (21:32):

Yeah. The summer after I turned 21 because you had to be 21 to go to the academy.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:36):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (21:37):

And you could be sponsored by another agency, you didn’t have to be employed. I went to the bank and borrowed $600 to pay my three months of rent.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (21:46):

Because I can work on the weekends to make enough spending money. But I… that paid my rent and utilities. So, I went to the academy. And then, I still just worked part-time because I didn’t want a full-time job because I’m still going to school.

Shea Kidd Brown (21:57):

School. Right.

Regina Lawson (21:58):

So, the next year after I got the second job offer to be a full-time officer, I took it. I still graduated in six years. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:06):

That is unreal. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:07):

… that was… yeah, I was pretty happy about that. But it was really because I had people that were great mentors.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:14):

And inspired me and helped me see the value of, uh, developing kind of the work resume.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:21):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:22):

Also how continuing my education was important.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:24):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:24):

That I shouldn’t stop that.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (22:26):

And just focus on the paycheck.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:27):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:27):

And-

Shea Kidd Brown (22:28):

Because easily sometimes that really gets in the way, especially as a young person, when you start earning money, it’s really tempting-

Regina Lawson (22:35):

Yeah. It very.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:35):

… to just take a time out from school.

Regina Lawson (22:37):

Very tempting. Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (22:39):

So, I was glad I didn’t do that. And the other thing I learned along the way is stick with a smaller agency, because you get to be more of a generalist.

Shea Kidd Brown (22:46):

Mm-hmm. You learn everything.

Regina Lawson (22:48):

Yeah. Learn a lot. But that was helpful. And I also… I’ve been very fortunate that I came into campus law enforcement to build my resume. But it was a time that just really beginning to become respected and understood.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (23:05):

And, and certainly through my time, has become now a career option-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:09):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (23:10):

… as opposed to just kind of-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:11):

Like happenstance?

Regina Lawson (23:12):

Exactly.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:13):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (23:13):

Thank you.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:14):

So, you mentioned there’s mentors and people who sounds like had your best interests at heart. They saw a need as it related to law enforcement, but also wanted to make sure you finished. Are there people that come to mind, especially that made a specific impact on your life, or imprint on your life?

Regina Lawson (23:29):

There are several and, and sadly, some of them have passed.

Shea Kidd Brown (23:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (23:34):

And one in particular, Billy Dawson, and he’s still living, and he was eventually became the chief at UNCW. But the funny story is when I went by the campus police department to get an application, he’s a big kind of larger-than-life individual. And I stopped by, big, gruff voice says, “Can I help you?” “Yes, I’m looking for an application.” He goes over to the file cabinet. He opens it up-

Shea Kidd Brown (23:59):

Uh-huh.

Regina Lawson (23:59):

… hands it to me, he closes the back, “Fill it out, bring it back.” He kind of intimidate me.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:03):

Yeah. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (24:04):

So, I was very reluctant to bring it back, but I didn’t-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:07):

And this is when you’re still a student?

Regina Lawson (24:08):

I was still a student.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:08):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (24:10):

That was my freshman year. I had to fill it out in the spring to get the job in the fall.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:14):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (24:14):

And so, ended up being as scary as that was-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:18):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (24:19):

… for a freshmen student, just because of this kind of larger-than-life-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:21):

Right.

Regina Lawson (24:23):

… not very talkative individual.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:24):

Yeah. It’s already an intimidating environment.

Regina Lawson (24:29):

Yes.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

And then, you add that to it.

Regina Lawson (24:29):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:29):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (24:30):

And he became one of my biggest fans even to this day-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:33):

Aw.

Regina Lawson (24:33):

… we stay in touch and I try to talk to him, you know, every few months. And-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:37):

That’s great.

Regina Lawson (24:38):

And just, uh, incredibly key person that influenced me-

Shea Kidd Brown (24:43):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (24:43):

… throughout my whole career.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:45):

Yeah. Well, it’s this concept, and you and I have talked about this, of being seen, and someone seeing you like that whole notion that my husband says, “You’re on the grid.” Like at some point, you’re like, “Oh, I have a purpose.”

Regina Lawson (24:58):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (24:58):

And it sounds like he really spoke in to that.

Regina Lawson (25:01):

Yes, he believed in me several times a lot more than I believed in myself.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:06):

Yeah. Yeah.

Regina Lawson (25:07):

And I think that’s what we all have to have-

Shea Kidd Brown (25:10):

Absolutely. Like it’s the magic. Well, I mean, I talked about this all the time, working in the jobs we work in is you just don’t know who might walk through that door. And like you walked through that door that day, and you’re sitting here now, and have been Chief here for a few years.

Regina Lawson (25:24):

A long time.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:26):

I would love to transition. I mean, one, I will just name that you’re a woman. We see more of that, but we don’t see a lot of that. And would love to just hear what you’ve learned from this work. I mean… and it doesn’t have to be gendered. It could be anything you’ve learned. I think it’s important to name when you’re a pioneer and doing work that others haven’t done. That’s really important to acknowledge and to honor that. And I’m sure that came with, um, some stories. (laughs)

Regina Lawson (25:53):

Thank you for asking about that. And, uh, no, in the early days, there were very few women.

Shea Kidd Brown (25:58):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (25:58):

I remember this one experience being at International Campus Law Enforcement Association-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:04):

… Annual Conference, and we started a women’s member luncheon.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:10):

The breakout sessions had ended. And we were all kind of gravitating into the place where we were going to have lunch.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:16):

One of our male colleagues was just sitting there chatting, and I think he thought we were all just going to have lunch, and all of a sudden, he looks around, he said, “Am I supposed to be here?”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:25):

I didn’t get the memo.

Regina Lawson (26:26):

Yeah. So, we jokingly said, “Ah, now you know how it feels to be in that room where you’re the only one, you know.”

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:31):

And we had a great conversation around it.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:31):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:35):

But he did eventually realize it was that women’s member luncheon.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:37):

That he was not invited.

Regina Lawson (26:38):

Yeah. So-

Shea Kidd Brown (26:38):

But that is interesting, when-

Regina Lawson (26:41):

Yeah. And we just celebrated our 25th year of the women’s… I might be off by one, we had some COVID gaps in there.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:49):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:50):

But… so for over 25 years, the women’s member is kind of moved around from dinner to lunch, from thing to thing.

Shea Kidd Brown (26:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (26:55):

And it’s just so rewarding now to not only see the increased number-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (27:02):

… but the diversity of the women that we have.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:03):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (27:04):

And not just visible diversity-

Shea Kidd Brown (27:06):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (27:07):

… just career paths, and connections, and how they got there.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:12):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (27:12):

Where they’ve been.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:13):

Interesting.

Regina Lawson (27:14):

It’s just very, very rich, rich experienced.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:17):

I imagine. I’ve learned a lot thanks to you about law enforcement, but you have city, county-

Regina Lawson (27:22):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:22):

… state, federal, campus, law enforcement isn’t just police. So, there’s lots of emergency management, fire.

Regina Lawson (27:30):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:30):

Like lots of different avenues. I, I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of those conversations. So, it goes without saying that this work is really hard.

Regina Lawson (27:38):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (27:39):

What you do is really hard, and over the last decade, particularly, has been even more challenging. So, you know, what are some of those challenges you’ve experienced? And I’m going to ask a two-parter, but I can ask it again, if you forget. But just some of the challenges you’ve experienced? And then, how do the global concerns about law enforcement affect how you lead?

Regina Lawson (27:59):

You know, the hardest thing I think you and I would both agree that you ever have to do in this work is to talk to a parent who’s lost a child.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:08):

Whether you actually have that conversation or not. But if your campus loses someone-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:13):

… I think we all know that as humans, that’s just hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:17):

It’s devastating.

Regina Lawson (28:18):

Family-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:19):

Right.

Regina Lawson (28:19):

… it’s just hard for the campus, it’s hard-

Shea Kidd Brown (28:22):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:22):

… for the greater community. It’s just really hard.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:25):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (28:25):

Yeah.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:26):

And it’s so counter to what’s expected when a young person dies.

Regina Lawson (28:32):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:32):

I mean, any loss of life is hard. But I think it’s something especially devastating about a young life. And then, a community that is surrounded by that life.

Regina Lawson (28:41):

Couldn’t, couldn’t agree with you more.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:42):

Yeah. So, how do you just sit with that and navigate that knowing the heaviness? That’s one example, the heaviness that you experience on any given day.

Regina Lawson (28:53):

I really think it’s… you’ve got to have your network.

Shea Kidd Brown (28:57):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (28:57):

And you’ve got to have people that you lean on.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:00):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:00):

And then, I think the other thing is always just being in the continuous improvement.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:05):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:06):

How do we take what happened and how we learn from it?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:10):

And how do we move forward? And, and how do we, as an individual, as a team, as a department, as an institution, as a profession-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:20):

Mm-hmm. Right.

Regina Lawson (29:20):

… how do we learn from whatever tragedy has occurred?

Shea Kidd Brown (29:23):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:24):

And that’s part of where I think being in law enforcement today, it’s hard. It’s still a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:32):

I stand by it. I’ll be the first to say problem policing is a problem.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:35):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:35):

I don’t wanna be a part of it.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:36):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (29:37):

I don’t want our team to be a part of it. I want to do everything that I can and that we can as a department to create a different experience for our campus community.

Shea Kidd Brown (29:46):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (29:47):

And if students come to us with bad experiences, or they have bad experiences here or they have experiences off campus-

Shea Kidd Brown (29:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (29:55):

… or traveling anywhere else, we want to be a place that you can come and seek assistance-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:01):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:01):

… seek resources, seek guidance or just seek understanding about-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:05):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:05):

… why whatever happened happened. And the other thing I’ll say is if we screw up, we want to own it. And that’s probably not the best language, but we’re going to be responsible.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:15):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:15):

And we’re going to be accountable. And I think… and this is true in general, a lot of times, people’s impressions are through personal experiences.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:25):

And then, sometimes they’re through the personal experiences of others.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:28):

Of someone else. Sure.

Regina Lawson (30:30):

So, we want to make sure that we’re creating that engagement-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:34):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:34):

… and that environment that we will… our students in our campus community, students, faculty, staff, visitors-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:40):

Right.

Regina Lawson (30:41):

… to have that positive experience-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:43):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:43):

… where we understand safety means different things to different parts of our community.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:48):

Right.

Regina Lawson (30:49):

And we want to create a safe environment for everyone. And like you said, it’s important to be seen-

Shea Kidd Brown (30:54):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (30:55):

… and to have that sense of belonging.

Shea Kidd Brown (30:56):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (30:56):

And if there’s a concern, or a question or an incident, I want to be able to communicate about it-

Shea Kidd Brown (31:02):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (31:03):

… and use it as a learning opportunity.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:05):

Yeah. I’ve seen that firsthand. I mean, we engage in work that people will never see publicly necessarily, but just being able to be a thought partner. And I know some early days that we had together when I first started, I mean, we had a series of weather-related events-

Regina Lawson (31:21):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (31:21):

… environmental and other challenges. And something I learned from you and your team is this importance of after-action exercises, meaning what worked, what didn’t work, you do that routinely, probably weekly. It could be something that’s not even a public event that you learned from. And I just want to say that I really appreciate that because we will all mess up. That’s human nature.

(31:43):

And when you’re dealing with crisis, of course, you know, you’re making split-second decisions, so acknowledging that. The humility, I guess, is what I see in you, and how you work, and really appreciate that. I think we really have missed the boat when we know everything. You know, we talked a lot about leaning into curiosity, and see that in you and your team. And I think what the community doesn’t always know, and I appreciate that you said it is tell us when-

Regina Lawson (32:09):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:09):

… something didn’t go right, tell us directly, because you’re the person and your team can address that in a moment, or as soon as you learn about it. And so, can you talk a little bit about the Police Advisory Board, and how that came about, and some of the progress that you’ve made there?

Regina Lawson (32:26):

Yeah. So, fortunately, we’ve had a Police Advisory Board for over 15 years now.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:30):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:31):

And we actually had trouble finding models when we began.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:35):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:36):

Because a lot of campuses did not have them, and ones that a lot of municipalities had were in larger kind of urban environments.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:45):

Okay.

Regina Lawson (32:45):

And it was a lot of focus around corruption and just the other things-

Shea Kidd Brown (32:51):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:51):

… that really didn’t… it wasn’t right size for a campus environment.

Shea Kidd Brown (32:55):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (32:55):

And, you know, one of those points of pride is we’ve now had a lot of institutions reach out to us and ask, “How did we get started? How-“

Shea Kidd Brown (33:01):

Right.

Regina Lawson (33:02):

What was important and to that point, and the biggest point of pride for me with our Police Advisory Board is the investment that people make.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:11):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:12):

And how they are eager to learn more and time is a commodity-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:17):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:17):

-In a campus environment, but how they give their time. And through that increased awareness, learning and understanding can help not only coach us and advise us, but also many times advocate because they have the facts and the information.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:33):

Right.

Regina Lawson (33:34):

That’s been hugely helpful and-

Shea Kidd Brown (33:36):

And having people who are not a part of-

Regina Lawson (33:38):

Mm-hmm.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:38):

… your day-to-day who can shed light and give perspective and ask questions. And-

Regina Lawson (33:44):

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I’ll give, uh, a great example, um, you know, after a tragic officer involved shooting at Georgia Tech many years ago, Police Advisory Board met and I was kind of briefing them on what we know about this incident at this time..

Shea Kidd Brown (33:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (33:57):

And we didn’t have Tasers at the time.

Shea Kidd Brown (33:59):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:00):

And that having that non-lethal use of force-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:03):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:03):

… could have prevented that officer from having to resort to using their firearm.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:08):

Wow.

Regina Lawson (34:08):

So, we use that as an opportunity to and that was… I mean, the Police Advisory Board took that and really helped advocate for something that had previously had a lot of stigma around.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:19):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:20):

You know, just using the word Taser in a conversation-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:23):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:23):

… had a lot of stigma. But through that kind of mutual understanding, everybody learned to realize-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:28):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:28):

… this is a tool-

Shea Kidd Brown (34:29):

Right.

Regina Lawson (34:29):

… that could prevent excessive use of force.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:32):

Right. And the way that you deploy that is I think sometimes the misconception is that’s the default. There are lots of tactics and tools, but then when that’s not working, then you have another level that’s non-lethal that you can apply. And that’s to me the community engaged in when you said problem policing as a problem that you’ve been very proactive about. Is that fair to say?

Regina Lawson (34:54):

I certainly hope so.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:55):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (34:55):

I mean, that’s our goal.

Shea Kidd Brown (34:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (34:57):

And I think creating the culture of care doesn’t happen by accident. It’s very intentional. And I think that we really benefit from having so many people on our team that have had or currently have, or will be having-

Shea Kidd Brown (35:14):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (35:15):

… students in college themselves.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:16):

Yeah. Such as-

Regina Lawson (35:17):

So, we really look at all of the students as kind of an extension of our family.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:21):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (35:22):

We all take it very personal if something happens to somebody.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:25):

Yes, yes.

Regina Lawson (35:26):

We don’t want that to happen.

Shea Kidd Brown (35:30):

Yeah. And it’s personal. Even if it’s another campus, we’ve seen that recently, some things in close proximity. And then, I’ve seen you just what you’ve done by bringing the area chiefs together. Do you want to talk about area chiefs at all, and what happens there?

Regina Lawson (35:42):

Yeah. So, it’s a monthly meeting and all the Winston-Salem Police Department, Forsyth County Sheriff’s Department, our District Attorney’s Office, Alcohol Law Enforcement, Fire Department, Emergency Management, Emergency Medical Services, and the local campuses all meet monthly. And that may not sound like a big deal, but getting-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:01):

That’s a really big deal.

Regina Lawson (36:02):

… getting all these people together is, is challenging.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:05):

Yeah. I’ve been to those meeting, it’s a big group. And that’s amazing.

Regina Lawson (36:08):

And it’s really believe that nearing that 20-year history of meeting.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:12):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:13):

And we meet once a month, uh, for breakfast. We’ve learned if we don’t meet first thing in the morning, and we wait until lunch-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:19):

Yeah. The day is gone.

Regina Lawson (36:21):

… people will get derailed. Yeah. So, it has become quite the collaboration. It’s a time management issue.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:26):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:26):

We… as our departments are moving through event planning to talk about complex investigations that are impacting other campuses-

Shea Kidd Brown (36:32):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (36:33):

… our city in general, you know, share information on new technology, and the partnerships, and the fellowships and being able to call each other by our first names.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:44):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (36:44):

And just knowing that all our departments are large, small, we’re nuanced, but I say we’re codependent.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:52):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (36:52):

Because none of us can do this work alone.

Shea Kidd Brown (36:55):

That’s right.

Regina Lawson (36:55):

And, you know, local agencies appreciate having the campus police departments because look at all those calls for service we take off of their plate.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:02):

Right.

Regina Lawson (37:02):

And then, look at all the intimacy that we get to have with our campus community-

Shea Kidd Brown (37:07):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (37:07):

… by being a part of that community and not kind of coming in from the outside.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:12):

Right.

Regina Lawson (37:12):

Like the police department or the sheriff’s department.

Shea Kidd Brown (37:14):

Without any context and that context is really key, especially the more complexities that exist between technology and that interfacing, and just that our college students or students and you protect the whole campus community. But having that context is really critical when you’re partnering and something’s happening, having both involved. And I would say I’ve seen the reciprocal of something going on in the city.

(37:38):

And our team has been there in large athletic events and things like that, where you see it all happening. And even a living past president that I got to watch everything from the local to the federal level unfold, and all the things that our campus never sees. But that’s what we want, is that you can feel protected and safe because things are working as they need to work. And so, we don’t always see that background.

Regina Lawson (38:00):

And I appreciate our emergency manager, Chauncey Bowers. She always says-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:04):

… “You want to be bored in the EOC.”

Shea Kidd Brown (38:04):

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Regina Lawson (38:07):

And the EOC is our emergency operations center.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:09):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:09):

So, that’s kind of the brain-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (38:11):

… of a big event, you know, kind of management or the response to the-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:16):

Right.

Regina Lawson (38:16):

… critical incident would be in the emergency operations center.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:19):

Yeah. There’s so much, so many complexities. So, your profession is one of those that people have opinions about because of the public nature, but don’t always understand. What do you want people to know that they may not know about you or about the work that they would not otherwise know?

Regina Lawson (38:36):

Like I said, despite the challenges that law enforcement has had for a number of years, it’s still a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:45):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:45):

And there are courageous men and women that suit up every day and go in harm’s way-

Shea Kidd Brown (38:52):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:52):

… to protect the rights of citizens.

Shea Kidd Brown (38:56):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (38:56):

And I think it’s important to just kind of pause and think about that and think about that, we, we lose officers.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:04):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:04):

And it is as challenging as it can be at times.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:08):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:09):

We’ve got to have law and order.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:11):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (39:12):

And then, that is not something that everybody is willing to do.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:15):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:16):

It’s beginning to get increasingly challenging to recruit people that want… not just police but fire, EMS-

Shea Kidd Brown (39:24):

Sure.

Regina Lawson (39:24):

… you know, all the first responders are, are challenged, but we always got to be there now.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (39:31):

Just call.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:31):

And I appreciate that wholeheartedly. What gives you hope?

Regina Lawson (39:35):

You know, you have to keep hope. And we were talking about continuous improvement. You always learn best from what you get wrong.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:42):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:42):

You don’t learn a lot from what you get right.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:45):

That’s so true.

Regina Lawson (39:47):

And so, I think in the recent decade, law enforcement has learned a lot.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:50):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:51):

And as a result, are moving forward differently. Every profession changes with time.

Shea Kidd Brown (39:57):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (39:58):

Law enforcement is no different. And think that what we’d love to do is really not have a need for us. But sadly, that’s not the case. And I do remain committed to the fact that it is a noble profession.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:13):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:13):

I remain committed to the fact that there will always be people willing to protect and serve.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:18):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:18):

And that there’s still a future in policing for those who are called to it.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:22):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (40:22):

Because it is somewhat of a calling, you know.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:25):

Mm-hmm.

Regina Lawson (40:25):

It really is.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:26):

Yeah. I believe that. Well, there’s a lot that gives me hope. And I’m grateful to get to work with you every day, and learn from you, and to lead with you. And I appreciate you spending some time with me.

Regina Lawson (40:37):

Well, thank you for having me.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:38):

Yeah.

Regina Lawson (40:38):

This has been a lot of fun.

Shea Kidd Brown (40:39):

Yeah. See, it wasn’t nearly as bad as you thought it would be. (laughs) So, thank you. Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Chief Lawson. From small moments that make a big difference in our career ambitions to hard work and sustainability, I am filled with life lessons. We all have perceptions of what a Chief of Police might be like, and I hope you feel a little more connected to the realities of the human side.

(41:07):

As I often say, we all have a story. I encourage you to think about what Chief Lawson shared and how you might apply that to your life. Thank you for listening. And I hope you’ll consider your story, its uniqueness and the surprising connections to our shared humanity. Truly, you have something to contribute to the world. I kid you not. Until next time, keep leaning into the hard work and heart work.

MaryAnna Bailey (41:34):

This episode was produced by Vir Gupta in association with the University’s Campus Life Team. For any thoughts and suggestions on what or who you want to hear next time, reach out to us on our socials using the information in the show notes. In the next episode, we’ll be back with a special guest who serves as the president of our university. Until then, I’m MaryAnna Bailey, and this was Kidd You Not.